The attached document is my analysis of the functions of the Analog Voltage Generator Circuit K8.  I built and tested the circuit so I could see what it actually did to the input wave train and see what output looks like. Report contains a describing of the card its inputs and output. The tests I conducted are documented with description of what I did and includes scopes shots of the signal going through the circuit. While circuit is not real complex by building it I could see the effect of the bias resistors as their setting define what really is going on with signal.

One thing that is apparent after doing that is voltage level is not being used to control gas required from accelerator input as that information would have been removed by the first amplifier in circuit as it puts out a 5 volt pulse.  Frequency appears to be set by Variable Frequency Generator that leaves pulse width, which testing of the card shows to be past through with no changes.  As source of signal is Digital Means card I did take a look at it and near the output of that card is an SN122N and one of the functions of this chip is vary pulse width which Stan has stated can be used to control gas production.

Main function of this card seems to be take an input pulse train at 5 volts PTP and output the same wave train with approximately 1 volt PTP with a DC offset.  Offset is always 2 volts (required to not clip signal) but can be set higher to set a minimum idle speed.  See analysis and test results for more detail.

If you are just reading this I have posted an update version of the test report it has K8 in title.  I had missed an important function of the circuit as I did not have a variable width pulse source when I did initial testing.   The variable width pulse causes the voltage to rise.  I did not see this happen with a square wave source.  Update has addition test results that show this effect and additional information on how to sync pulse.

Quote from Earl on June 4th, 2019, 09:43 AM

The attached document is my analysis of the functions of the Analog Voltage Generator Circuit K8.  I built and tested the circuit so I could see what it actually did to the input wave train and see what output looks like. Report contains a describing of the card its inputs and output. The tests I conducted are documented with description of what I did and includes scopes shots of the signal going through the circuit. While circuit is not real complex by building it I could see the effect of the bias resistors as their setting define what really is going on with signal.

One thing that is apparent after doing that is voltage level is not being used to control gas required from accelerator input as that information would have been removed by the first amplifier in circuit as it puts out a 5 volt pulse.  Frequency appears to be set by Variable Frequency Generator that leaves pulse width, which testing of the card shows to be past through with no changes.  As source of signal is Digital Means card I did take a look at it and near the output of that card is an SN122N and one of the functions of this chip is vary pulse width which Stan has stated can be used to control gas production.

Main function of this card seems to be take an input pulse train at 5 volts PTP and output the same wave train with approximately 1 volt PTP with a DC offset.  Offset is always 2 volts (required to not clip signal) but can be set higher to set a minimum idle speed.  See analysis and test results for more detail.

Please excuse me if this is an overly stupid question.
Judging by the pictures on page 1 in the document you provided, is it the case that you are actually holding a Stanley Meyer electronic control card which is part of his WFC system?

No that is not the case that is one of the estate pictures that are posted in this forum.  I just included it to show what I was trying to build.  After I finished the card I spent 2 days trying to get it to work.  Made several mistakes fixed those but left off ground on Cal Pot and circuit did not work.  I had it in plug-in version but did not transfer it.  Kept looking at circuit then finally traced circuit using pictures you are talking about and found it .  Felt really stupid. But that is nothing new.

I will post an updated version of the documents which has new screen shots of output.  There is a slight change in output not sure way but signal level PTP dropped and it already was low.   I am beginning to thing this low level was done on purpose by Stan as last stage of circuit handles a higher PTP just fine as I tested that using wave train right out of Q3.  The signal shows up as ruff sine wave at 50 Hz, as saw tooth wave at 5 Hz and almost disappears at 500 Hz as PTP voltage drops in this circuit as frequency increases.

As I build these circuits I am seeing how things work together and can see why 5 KHz was discussed as recommend operation carrier wave, then a 50 Hz signal out Frequency generator could be the analog frequency and guess what it looks like a sine wave.  It will be interesting to see what the analog control circuit does to it.  That's what I am building next.  Note: The Freq Gen board provides method of output both levels at the same time.

Ok, thanks Earl.

As I need to use the knobs on the front panel to do my coil testing, I have continued to replace dial pots with screw trim pots and add connection to test points on the front panels.

I just did the ones on the Analog Voltage Generator front panel.  I did not yet change the Manual Speed Cal as I was not as concerned about this yet.  While looking at this I realized that I am missing something where is the accelerator input to this card?  I did to a test to see it the 6 on the circuit diagram was a voltage input that would provide an offset to the analog signal but when I did this test, I just got a flat line.  Yet the accel and idle pots imply that they are there to set limits on these values so where is the signal input to card.   Not really shown on circuit unless it is the 6 in circle.  While I wondered about this when I built K8 circuit I did not worry too much about it as I had a basic analog signal I could used to test rest of circuits downstream.

Today I went looking for information on the accelerator function and found this picture Analog Voltage Generator PCB K8 & Accelerat Card.jpg which I have had for a long time it was just in a different folder call GMS Collected that I normally do not look at.

While I understand what all the items on the front panel do and where most of the connections go, I would like to better understand the accelerator card as I want to know what it does to the signal. I am missing the connections between the cards and the external input signal to the accelerator card from the accelerator pedal.

Dan do you have the circuit diagram for the accelerator function?  I have not seen it anywhere I have looked.  I can trace the wires for the Generator Card as most of those go to the front panel, are power, or the signal into and out of the K8 circuit.

hi we have made a card to interface a modern tps pedal  assembly


replaced stands pedal sensor and ribbon cable with a 3 wire  modern tps sensor on throttle body or pedal

to help ease understating


controls pulse width and voltage level as ronnie shows in video

https://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3552.0     here


tps interface card
also not we drew up a better layout for the analogue card so it makes it a bit easy to test adjust and connect

picture here frm  db 37 version
all gerber is there for test

https://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=3474.0;attach=24601;image

thread here https://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3474.25

Thanks Dan your way ahead of where I am at.   I did enlarge photo I referenced and traced connections between the 2 boards.  As K8 is a daughter board to accelerator card all the interfaces to K8 most go through the access the accelerator card connector.   I numbered the card edges of the 2 cards and traced the wires.  By doing that I now know where the 3, 6 and 13 circled connections go.  I already knew what the rest of the interfaces were I just started this but have already undefined the GRN and M sign pins just have not tried to do other yet.  Should not be hard to do rest as I know where circuit interfaces are to components of K8.

What I had not thought about what was the 2 empty sockets on the accelerator card being I/O interfaces.

I had read where Ronnie talked about pulse width and voltage levels being used to control cell production but he never provided any details at least not in the threads I have read.  Pulse width can be change by changing the M input it is the voltage level change I am not sure how that is done.
But as I said above I have never looked at the accelerator interface before now.

I will be careful in using my pin numbers in any discussion as I just label then both to top so I could track the wires between the 2 boards.  I expect at some point I will purchase your production boards.  Until then what I have is find for my testing.  I keep learning more each time I try something new.  Even relearn old lessons like if you do not have IDLE setting high enough you do not get a usable analog signal.  In my case at least 2.3 volts one of the reasons I changed to trim pot so it does not get changed.

Finished labeling interfaces between the 2 cards.  As I expected 3 and 13 appear to be just labels for the corresponding pots. I could not find any other connection on Stan's cards or your layout for K8.  I think the 6 is just a reference to the run accelerator switch on the front panel.

What I missed in my thinking is where M actually comes from.  In comes from the Digital Means  (Accelerator card) I believe the voltage level and the gate size can be changed.  So the M value coming into K8 can be at a higher voltage level than I have been testing with.   I have been using the output of K2 as my M input to K8 (at 5v logic level).  While this tested the basic function of the K8 circuit it does not test the dynamic range of the M input.  So the additional input I was expecting does not exist.  The change is already in done before the M signal gets to K8.  The gate generator also stays in sync as it uses M1 as its input which comes from the same source as M.

I guess I would like to see samples of M signal output from the Digital Means cards so I could better understand what values to expect.  K8 will only pass values between 2 and 10 volt before it clips signa.


 

https://youtu.be/95ykCn96iXY

https://youtu.be/dHbLp9SA2Bs

Thanks Dan.

There is definitely a change in the gate size in both videos.  You can see the voltage change in second video.  Do you know what is the source of the voltage signal.  The 74122N in K3 The Gated Pulse Frequency Generator is controlled by voltage level.   Interesting that frequency is in 40hz to 50hz range which is what I would expect for the M signal.

Dan

I tried to take a look at what varying the gate would do to the analog signal.  Thought it would be easy to do with my test setup as connecting wires are not soldered but in screw terminal on each board.  What I did was connect the analog input to the output of the the gate board.   That input was at 41.67hz just like the the output of K2  I even set it to 50 duty cycle.  No signal out of analog generator board. 

Reason input voltage level from gate board was 3.8v including a slight voltage offset from zero.   Input from K2 is a solid 5V square wave.  Looks like analog board needs at least a 5v signal to get through the first stage amplifier.

Have been thinking about how to test a signal with a greater than 5V pulse to see what that would do to analog signal.  Still have not figured that one out some of this testing would sure be easier if I had a signal generator.  I have thought about buying one several times but have always come up with another way to do things.

Actually I have an easy way to raise the voltage level of the pulse I already did that when I changed the gate from 5v logic to 12v logic to solve logic level miss match in the resonance circuit which I did using the first to amps and resistor values from the K8 circuit.  While raising voltage will work it does not make sense when M and M1 come out of the Digital Means cards as the 7408 and other logic chips on output are at 5 volt logic levels and will always put out a 5 volt signal. They will pass the signal with gate changes with no problem they will not pass voltage level changes.   I knew that when I was looking at this when a started building circuits.  Is to forget as chip supply voltages are usually left off circuit diagrams

I wonder if the limits checks in this circuit are left over from an earlier use.  I did a check to see what would happen to signal to transformer if I raised the lower limit offset.  There was no change in signal levels to primary.  Changing gain or offset on VIC front panel did have an effect. 

Reason I have been checking these things as Ronnie talks testing at 2, 4, 5,8,10, 11+ voltage and making adjustment and I have always wondered where he set the voltage.  I can do that with gain setting on VIC but I do not see any place else to do that in circuits I have built.

I used a lm 2917, Here is a circuit I made years ago.The output from the f/v generator pulls down the c/v pin on the 555 adjusting the duty cycle of the 555 gate timer based on engine rpm. (crankshaft sensor) 555 used to simulate.
I was counting the pulses, but you do not have to. An edge trigger off the frequency output can trigger the gating monostable also, eliminating the 4017. 

p.s. ..Figure it out yourself. Do not rely on gatekeepers for info, none of it is correct.

thanks

That circuit is designed to keep the number of pulses to each gated pulse the same regardless of the frequency. So, whatever frequency you set it at you get the same number of pulses in the train. In the scope of things it really does not matter. All you need is the output going to the vic transistor from the f/v converter.

I guess it depends on how you define pulses.  Both the analog and digital wave trains are in sync as they are fed from same source.  Even the gate generator gets its input from this same source to keep them all in sync If you change the frequency of the input M you change the frequency of the gate signal.  The digital high frequency is in each pulse as the gate control when it is created so it is always inside the gate pulse width.  The bigger the pulse the more of the high frequency signal is included in the pulse.

Dan I did run the other test I talked about above.  I fed the M input into analog generator in to the amplifier I used to raise 5 volt logic to 12 volt logic but I used a KM317 voltage regulator instead of straight 12v into circuit.  The output of this amplifier was then fed into input of K8.  I did not change anything else this let me control the voltage level of the signal into the K8.  I initially set it voltage to 5v and check signal against the input to make sure they were the same.  I then slowly raise the voltage out the KM317 (monitored with volt meter and with 0-scope on input to K8). I raised the signal input level as it went up to 8v there was no change to analog signal level output from K8. 

Note: I was doing this test to see if a voltage level change on K8's input signal would affect K8's output and it does not appear to based on this test.

Looking at just K8 I can see what the idle setting does.  There is a minimum level about 2.32 volts that needs to set to see the single without clipping.  Seems to be a good setting from 10hz to 75hz.  Above 75hz the gate function stops working.  Below 10hz signal start to be clipped so if you go lower so minimum setting needs be raised to avoid clipping.

It is not clear what the is the function of the accel pot.  The only place it seems to come into play is on the Cal value.  If you switch to cal from run you can use the accel pot to set the voltage at a max level.

What I expect I may be missing is this pot may be used to set something back on the Digital Means card as the J signal is fed back though this card before going to the rest of the system.

At least with the trim pot I will not be changing the idle setting below the minimum value by accident.  Did that below and wondered where my signal went.

Thank you for posting that Hardkrome it helps people see


Earl  also thanks for testing the m1 and k8 I will read though this again with circuit matrix in front of me and comment

Dan

One of my goals is to make my test boards more user friendly when used as part of the whole system.  Hence, the change to trim pots to get finer control and eliminate unexpected changes.  Several times I changed the wrong pot and my signal disappeared.  As I am doing system tests I am trying to see what changes in the system when I make change to one of the controls.  I am finding things do not always do what I expected.  The controls on K8 are and example, the idle setting is critical because if you do not set it high enough there is no analog signal down stream of K8.  This is the reason I wanted to understand the impact of the input to the K8 board.  I now know it is not a issue.  Another system setting that is critical is the gate frequency must be below about 75hz.  Any frequency higher that that and there is no gate this sets the maximum analog frequency that can be used.  One I am still looking at is the Gain and Offset pots on the Main Control panel.  It is beginning to look like the is some minimum level for the offset.  So far it looks like until some minimum value is reached the Gain pot does not do anything.

I have started looking at output of the feedback coil and circuit it goes to as I need both to do more testing.  Have captured screen shots of the feedback coil output will post more on that later.  Was getting something out of the pulse board but it did not appear to be working correctly.  It was not, as I had wired it wrong. I had the right layout just did not follow it correctly when I ran the wires.  I have fixed wiring problem but need to replace the 918m. (Ordered LM-718 as it is supposed to be equivalent not sure when they will arrive, needed to order 5 for $10 as minimum order).

Will continue to document systems setting I am using as I go.  I am still trying to understand exactly what the frequency knobs do.  I hoping have a working feedback system will help.

Great looking forward to see pick up coil scope shot , we know that it must be included in the total resistance on way to cell

I found a problem in down stream testing that the digital pulse was on falling part of AM wave instead of rising part.  Reporting fix here and why.

If you look at K11 The Digital Control Means circuit it shows the same signal going to the K3, Gate Pulse Frequency Generator, and K8, Analog Voltage Generator, M to K8 and M1 to K3.

However, if you look at K8’s circuit diagram the signal indicator above the M input show it to be on the falling edge.  After checking the M and M1 signals where the same I decided to do a quick test.  I went back to K2 and inverted the M signal going to K8.  This fixed the problem and everything is now in sync.

Note: I had to do a lot of searching to find that the symbol on K8 means "start/trigger on negative plus" which is the inverse of M

The easiest why to fix this if you are using K11 is to use the M2 output for one of the signals as it is the inverse of M and M1.
In my case I will be using an inverter on my K2  board to invert M board as that is the easiest place for me to do it and use that as my input to K8.

First picture shows the problem and second same signal after fix.