That's just awesome Nav, thank you very much for the answer and the schematics :thumbsup:
As it is right now I've stopped my Meyer WFC tinkering quite a while ago and I don't think I'll take it up any time soon TBH, but it's very interesting to see your line of thinking here with regards to how the signal from the pickup coil can be recognized and made to scan for optimum performance given that it looks for zero voltage/zero flux, as opposed to max voltage when conditions are ripe for the Meyer goodness in the fuel cell, which is, up to now anyway, what I had in mind for how the signal from the pickup coil should be interpreted and put in good use in the PLL circuit of it all.
OTOH, I've actually started building a Faradic brute force electrolyser based on what I found here and I am kinda confident that it will work as advertised, that I'd be able to loop say a lawnmower or genset or the likes and to me that would be almost as good as a Meyer WFC because if there's 2 things that which we got a s#itload of on this small planet it's water and dirt, so it's well worth pursuing.
But that's as maybe, back to topic ;-)

Interesting chart
http://www.tibtech.com/conductivity.php

I'm going to share a photo out of Stan's estate file of the feedback circuit. In it you will see a letter (H) that I highlighted. This letter has a meaning, would anyone care to elaborate on it's meaning? It's not just a hookup letter to another board, it also represents something else. As I stated in the other thread of Nav's I said that Stan's document is based and written, that the person reading it knows some of the terms, formulas and words used.

Quote from gpssonar on December 10th, 2015, 05:57 PM

I'm going to share a photo out of Stan's estate file of the feedback circuit. In it you will see a letter (H) that I highlighted. This letter has has a meaning, would anyone care to elaborate on it's meaning? It's not just a hookup letter to another board, it also represents something else. As I stated in the other thread of Nav's I said that Stan's document is based and written on that the person reading it knows some of the terms, formulas and words used.

Hmmm, seems to be a re-occurring theme...

And in the below schematic it is used to PLL lock into the current flow, because like Ronnie said, the system is always dynamic.

is Tr1 a trigger for some kind of error ?    SMPS chips like TL494 have error except that signal goes right back to 4046 PLL , its also separate core
gpssonar diagram has test jack right there "H"

Yea there is a test jack there to see what (H) is doing on the scope. Care to take a stab at what the letter (H) represents?

Hydrogen?

Happy?

Have a great day?

Hundreds of miles on one tank of water?

 :)


Seriously, I think it stands for Honing.

Quote from Your Dictionary

2. To perfect or make more intense or effective.

Unless (being a radar guy) Stan means Homing.

Quote from Your Dictionary

2. To move or advance toward a target or goal.

"H" is in a square ,  when A , V  or W is in a circle it represents a ameter , volt meter and watt meter .  maybe it represents heterodyne ?

"resonant feedback K21"   refers to that leg , maybe , and not the H in the square
"test jack K9"   also has the K reference number

from a practical view point , K21 and K9 have those numbers to refer to if there is a written report to go with the diagram and SM did waffle on
what ever the paper is , the "H" will be in there some where

to me the H is separate from K21

Quote from gpssonar on December 10th, 2015, 07:02 PM

Yea there is a test jack there to see what (H) is doing on the scope. Care to take a stab at what the letter (H) represents?

The H vector of magnetic field.

It has to do with electromagnetism, it represents the  (Field Intensity).

Field Intensity ( H )
The ampere-turns of mmf specify the magnetizing force, but the intensity of the
magnetic field depends on the length of the coil. At any point in space, a specific
value of ampere-turns must produce less field intensity for a long coil than for a
short coil that concentrates the same mmf. Specifically, the field intensity H in
mks units is
H=ampere-turns of mmf over l meters
(14–2)
This formula is for a solenoid. The fi eld intensity H is at the center of an air core.
For an iron core, H is the intensity through the entire core. By means of units for H ,
the magnetic fi eld intensity can be specifi ed for either electromagnets or permanent
magnets, since both provide the same kind of magnetic fi eld.
The length in Formula (14–2) is between poles. In Fig. 14–2 a , the length is 1 m
between the poles at the ends of the coil. In Fig. 14–2 b , l is also 1 m between the
ends of the iron core. In Fig. 14–2 c , though, l is 2 m between the poles at the ends
of the iron core, although the winding is only 1 m long.
The examples in Fig. 14–2 illustrate the following comparisons:
1. In all three cases, the mmf is 1000 A* t for the same value of IN .
2. In Fig. 14–2 a and b , H equals 1000 A*t/m. In a , this H is the intensity at
the center of the air core; in b , this H is the intensity through the entire
iron core.
3. In Fig. 14–2 c , because l is 2 m, H is 1000⁄2, or 500 A*t/m. This H is the
intensity in the entire iron core.
Units for H
The fi eld intensity is basically mmf per unit of length. In practical units, H is ampereturns
per meter. The cgs unit for H is the oersted, * abbreviated Oe, which equals one
gilbert of mmf per centimeter.

All I am trying to show here is, you can't just read his documents without doing research on everything including something as simple as a letter. It all means something, when you read any of his documents you either have to know these things or you find them yourself. In over 10 years of research you can see that I have researched even the letters in his documents. You have to in order to back everything up with facts. This is what it takes to understand everything in order to obtain a working fuel cell. HARD WORK I hope everyone finds this little bit of information useful.

He's monitoring the flux density of the H vector field during resonance because he cannot afford the input impedance to be linked to the load impedance during resonance. His bifilar chokes neutralize the current density but the inductance fields in those chokes is neutralized by the core.

H looks like the feedback signal from the pickup coil that is usually filtered and fed to a pll's phase comparators,

The phase comparators compare the feedback signal frequency & phase to the vco's frequency & phase generating an error correction voltage whenever the two signals are not in lock,
The error correction voltage drives the vco up or down in frequency to regain capture, phase locking the pulser to the resonant frequency of the circuit with only a tiny amount of phase discrepancy.

These comments I made were wrong.

Kudos to all of you! That was useful :)

No worries Gunthar. Look at figure 670 below which is the inductance choke. During resonance we cannot afford the inductance to effect the voltage charge as it leaves the choke 90 degrees out of phase into the cell. Stan chokes the inductance right at the beginning of self resonance, the inductance field is still in the chokes and still connected to the core so he shunts it back round the core into the primary and spends it with his 220 Ohm resistor. Once it has been spent then the self resonant circuit can operate in a voltage only field. When the voltage enters the cell tubes the inductance of the tubes is the same 220 Ohm resistance and so the capacitive inductance and capacitive reactance are both the same and it tries to become a series resonant LC network but the diode only allows it to go one way into the cell. The tubes in Stans cell have to be a 220 Ohms resistance value and I have shown how to achieve this ealier in this thread either through wire or the tubes themselves.

Quote from Matt Watts on December 10th, 2015, 06:09 PM

Hmmm, seems to be a re-occurring theme...

And in the below schematic it is used to PLL lock into the current flow, because like Ronnie said, the system is always dynamic.

Stan´s is a little bit different from Ruslan´s, Matt, but similar .. Ruslan uses a gain factor of 1 (driver).



Stan´s circuit gives us some insight how he tracked core magnetic field strength behaviour.
1 Meg resistor gives insight about gain of the signal amplifier (positive feedback loop).

Both 10k resistors and anti-parallel diodes tell that it´s a current measurement representing magnetic field strength in the core as Ronnie described. Clipping diodes tell that Stan was interested in the very first moment when current starts to flow. Anti-parallel diodes show that feedback signal is AC.
Estimating 100V peak voltage from the feedback coil giving a max. current of 5 mA thru the diodes at a positive breakthru voltage of 0.7V A33 goes high at the very beginning of the (?triangle?) signal.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 11th, 2015, 08:58 AM

Stan´s is a little bit different from Ruslan´s, Matt, but similar .. Ruslan uses a gain factor of 1 (driver).



Stan´s circuit gives us some insight how he tracked core magnetic field strength behaviour.
1 Meg resistor gives insight about gain of the signal amplifier (positive feedback loop).

Both 10k resistors and anti-parallel diodes tell that it´s a current measurement representing magnetic field strength in the core as Ronnie described. Clipping diodes tell that Stan was interested in the very first moment when current starts to flow. Anti-parallel diodes show that feedback signal is AC.
Estimating 100V peak voltage from the feedback coil giving a max. current of 5 mA thru the diodes at a positive breakthru voltage of 0.7V A33 goes high at the very beginning of the (?triangle?) signal.

Did Ronnie mention that?
Do you know i'd thought it was me who brought it up and Ronnie never mentioned measuring magnetic flux density before I started talking about it in this thread. Well done Ronnie working that one out, you're a genius.
 :rofl:

Quote from gpssonar on December 11th, 2015, 02:54 AM

It has to do with electromagnetism, it represents the  (Field Intensity).

Field Intensity ( H )
The ampere-turns of mmf specify the magnetizing force, but the intensity of the
magnetic field depends on the length of the coil. At any point in space, a specific
value of ampere-turns must produce less field intensity for a long coil than for a
short coil that concentrates the same mmf. Specifically, the field intensity H in
mks units is
H=ampere-turns of mmf over l meters
(14–2)
This formula is for a solenoid. The fi eld intensity H is at the center of an air core.
For an iron core, H is the intensity through the entire core. By means of units for H ,
the magnetic fi eld intensity can be specifi ed for either electromagnets or permanent
magnets, since both provide the same kind of magnetic fi eld.
The length in Formula (14–2) is between poles. In Fig. 14–2 a , the length is 1 m
between the poles at the ends of the coil. In Fig. 14–2 b , l is also 1 m between the
ends of the iron core. In Fig. 14–2 c , though, l is 2 m between the poles at the ends
of the iron core, although the winding is only 1 m long.
The examples in Fig. 14–2 illustrate the following comparisons:
1. In all three cases, the mmf is 1000 A* t for the same value of IN .
2. In Fig. 14–2 a and b , H equals 1000 A*t/m. In a , this H is the intensity at
the center of the air core; in b , this H is the intensity through the entire
iron core.
3. In Fig. 14–2 c , because l is 2 m, H is 1000⁄2, or 500 A*t/m. This H is the
intensity in the entire iron core.
Units for H
The fi eld intensity is basically mmf per unit of length. In practical units, H is ampereturns
per meter. The cgs unit for H is the oersted, * abbreviated Oe, which equals one
gilbert of mmf per centimeter.

You´re correct, nav, Ronnie posted that citation and I interpreted it the way I described and thought it was his wording. However for me it´s most important to reach the goal of a running system and at the end many of us here will have their part on contribution.
my role is not an arbitrator :cool:

Quote from gpssonar on December 8th, 2015, 03:39 PM

All I will say about this is, do you think the circuit that the feed back coil is feeding the information to that your talking about can handle that kind of coil voltage it will produce if they are the same ratio as the rest of the coils?

This is what Ronny said after I'd mentioned the feedback coil measuring flux density in the core and the PLL responding. Now he's changed his mind and copied and pasted a load of tosh from somewhere on the web and now he suddenly 'worked it out'. You guys just amaze me. I don't think Ronnie has his VIC working at all, in fact I don't think he knows how any of it works.

Ronnie's response 3 days ago was to immediately assume that there would be high voltage on the pickup coil and that was wrong. There can be no such voltage on that coil and other members have seen and mentioned this. The reason there cannot be high voltage on that coil is because the resistor on the primary does not allow the core to stay open during resonance and the secondary +2 chokes are isolated in what Stan refers to as the 'isolated high voltage zone' in his technical brief. The pickup coil is not in that zone.

http://uploads.ru/WdIBc.jpg

Nav, I am at work right now but when I get home I will indulge in the remarks you have just made.

Meanwhile back at the farm here's my new VIC core i've just finished, do you like it Ronnie, do you, do you like it. I like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoRcpbsD-Vk

Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 11th, 2015, 08:58 AM

Stan´s is a little bit different from Ruslan´s, Matt, but similar .. Ruslan uses a gain factor of 1 (driver).



Stan´s circuit gives us some insight how he tracked core magnetic field strength behaviour.
1 Meg resistor gives insight about gain of the signal amplifier (positive feedback loop).

Both 10k resistors and anti-parallel diodes tell that it´s a current measurement representing magnetic field strength in the core as Ronnie described. Clipping diodes tell that Stan was interested in the very first moment when current starts to flow. Anti-parallel diodes show that feedback signal is AC.
Estimating 100V peak voltage from the feedback coil giving a max. current of 5 mA thru the diodes at a positive breakthru voltage of 0.7V A33 goes high at the very beginning of the (?triangle?) signal.

Don't forget that the VIC cards had a modification of a 50 Volt 10 microfarad capacitor added in series with one of the 10k ohm resistors.  Also the second 10k ohm resistor was just jumpered to 5Volts VDD and the second winding of the pick up coil was unused.  Another note, the test jack was not connected to the BNC of the card face plate for this circuit.