Been going over my PDF's of Stan's patents and I looked at his Patent 8B circuit. Looking at it first glance all seems well until you look at it in detail.
I've posted two pictures, In the first picture is the schematic with three blue numbers. I will show how elemental mistake are rectified in the second picture.
Elemental mistake number 1
The variable alternate gate circuit drives two optocouplers with V+ voltage, the top optocoupler is switching a transistor at its base. The transistor has a resistor across its live voltage which is correct because the base voltage is in terms of millivolts and milliamps compared to the collector and emitter. But the optocoupler is missing its resistor through the LED. Anyone with a basic understanding of electronics knows that optocouplers have a delicate LED inside, that LED runs usually similar to a base of a transistor or the gate of a Mosfet. The whole idea of an optocoupler  is to switch higher currents with very low currents or high voltages with low voltages.
I rectified this on the lower picture.
Elemental mistake number 2
Again he makes the same mistake, he drives an optocoupler with no resistor. The LED will blow it milliseconds. I know this because i've done it myself by selecting wrong value resistors when using them.
Elemental mistake number 3
This is the grandaddy of all circuitry mistakes that I have ever seen.
The lower optocoupler is driving a transistor at its base, the transistor switches the voltage from the variable dc power supply but get this: THE POWER SUPPLY THAT THE LOWER OPTOCOUPLER IS TRYING TO ISOLATE RUNS IN SERIES WITH A PRIMARY COIL  THROUGH ITS OWN LED.
Now that is a good one, the LED inside the optocoupler is now in series with an high voltage line that it is designed to be switching through the transistor. I have rectified the mistake again in the lower picture.
I cannot believe that Stan Meyer could make mistakes like this, not for one tiny minute. Therefore I must conclude that a person with no basic knowledge of electronics has been at work here. Who ever drew those schematics cannot have possibly known that you cannot drive an optocoupler with the series voltage that the optocoupler is isolating.
If this patent has been doctored, have all the rest? That's the question.

Its the back EMF spike that is the problem here, either you place a large diode at number 3 or you run  the variable alternate gate circuit from an isolated stand alone power supply. Its a pretty dumb thing to do really.

Without seeing the variable alternate gate control schematic, you could say that. The resistors for the opto may be in the gate controller circuit.

I've found plenty of errors in other drawings.  Mostly copy and paste errors, where two values are the same but should be incrementing.  Others like in the VIC the VCC and 10 Volt labels, which implies that all the labels were 10 Volt and changed to VCC.  A few 10 V labels were missed.  Also It looks like VEE originally just meant 12 Volt power, but was not changed either when all 10 volt stuff was changed to 12 volt (VCC) in the VIC box. 

The way I look at it, Stan wouldn't of let many people proof read his work.  But then again, I have found chunks of circuit not listed in the schematics.  Best thing to do is compare the schematics with Don's photo evidence.

Ulf was the one who did a lot of Stan's documents for him. That's what he was good at, Mac PC's.
Don

Quote from Dynodon on January 5th, 2015, 11:46 AM

Without seeing the variable alternate gate control schematic, you could say that. The resistors for the opto may be in the gate controller circuit.

That is very true, the gate control could just be a signal generator that runs at milliamps but there is still nothing to stop the back EMF spiking the diode in the opto. I found that out myself and my system has a diode that stops the opto circuit getting negative EMF spikes. There should also be a diode between the transistor and the primary like he has at the top. If you don't then the back EMF from the primary will rattle that too. The best thing to do is place a diode across the primary leads from V+ to ground and any back EMF will shunt out. The general rule of thumb is not to let opto's get anywhere near back EMF or you will pay the price.

I'm with Nate, There are so many drawings on the internet that people have doctored in order to give there opinion of how things works, that you can not trust anything on here anymore. We have the estate files and photos of all the boards, best thing to do is go off them and forget everything else you find. Just like Nate said there are circuits on Stan's boards that don't actually show on Stan's schematics of the boards. One good example is the Gate Freq. Board, there is a circuit on that board that don't show on his schematic. Take the photo's of each board and build it as you see it. The photo's of the boards don't lie, unlike many photos and drawings of things that has been changed or modified by people giving there theory. To much time has been wasted over the years with theory instead of facts. Photo's of each board is in most everyone's computer thanks to Don Gable and Russ. Use them, build them, If they work come back and tell the facts how they work. Or if they don't work come back and share why they don't work. This is the only way to know for a fact if things worked as he said. We all should have done this back when we all got the estate photo's.

Quote from gpssonar on October 1st, 2013, 03:01 PM

Let me clarify an set the record straight for people reading and posting on this thread.
I am not trying to produce enough gas to run a car from a fuel cell. And Stan didn't either. Stan was only able to idle his buggy on a fuel cell. Let's be clear about that. So the question has been raised "how many liters are you making at what power". I care less how many liters i'm making, because I know it has more to do with how he processed the gas more than how much you make . Questions like that came from the hho bandwagon. Which I was a part of years ago. But look people, That was before we had a lot of information we have now. We have a photo of his first plate cell. We have photo's of just about everything Stan made and had on his buggy. We have photos of his buggy in different phases. We have photos of him idling his buggy on the tall tube cell in the yard. We have photos of his resonant cavity cell on the buggy along with the gas processor, electric static filter among other things on the buggy. Then you had the buggy with the injectors on it. All of what Stan did in phases. You have to follow those phases in order to figure out how he ran the buggy from idle to high speeds going down the road. I am working on one phase only and it has been more than a plate full at times from me. And that phase is, "SEPARATE HYDROGEN AND OXYGEN IN A ECONOMICAL WAY" that's all I am trying to do at this time, and I have been years getting it done. If you can't do it in an economical way you just as well quit right now because it is a waist of your time. Now this is what I am doing with the resonate cavity to set the record straight.
Now that is what I am working on......And I know it will not run a car down the road.
So some would say why waste your time then?
It's because I know there is another process to get that done.
Will I tackle that process if I get the process I am working on done?
Yes
How long will it take?
Well I've been working on this process for 8 years, I hope it don't take that long but it could who knows.
This post is just to set the record straight, I have never made a claim that I would produce enough gas to run a car and again I have stated in this thread, gas from a cell would not be enough to run a car without using the gas processor that Stan used.
Why has it took me so long to get this process to work again?
I didn't know how it worked the first time.
Jumping from one precess to another making it even more confusing.
Listen to everyone else and trying there methods.
Having burn out spells.
Research
Building testing and trying my own methods.
How did I figure out this process?
After eight years finally asking one simple question.
What is it that an inventor tries to protect more than anything when he files a patent? Answer: What makes it work.
What did Stan say that violates his Patent?
"If you place a restive element across my cell, you violate my patent."
That's what he was trying to protect in the patent, and that is what makes it work.
He let the cat out of the bag. Whether he did it intentional, or by mistake I don't know.
That's how he uses the water as part of the circuit.
by using the water as a resistor you can lower amps and increase voltage.
By using a voltage intensifier circuit you can increase the voltage even more while keeping amp low.
By using the resistance in the chokes to keep amps low
By using the chokes and capacitance reactance in the chokes to charge the cell.
With all I have said in this post is all Stan did to get this process to work.
Some would say they has to be amps in the cell to get it to work.
Yes there is amps in the cell to get it to work.
Use the Vic and water as your resistance.

... and if those pcbs don´t produce useful results ... then start thinking after replicating ???
why do you think, Ronnie that there is something special these simple boards can do?

I can tell you that the board didn´t work 4 years ago and i can tell you the reason why it didn´t work. and i posted the information in this forum and in hereticalbuilders forum. what else can I do to speed up progress and avoid waste of time and money?

if there is real need to rebuild the original circuits only one person should do so and tell about the results and not a group of people. there s little chance that these boards alone will do the trick.

I think the stumbling block is the coils not the boards. I found more facts about bifilar coils today and i will post them later. We learn a little more each day.

Quote from nav on February 1st, 2015, 01:03 PM

I think the stumbling block is the coils not the boards. I found more facts about bifilar coils today and i will post them later. We learn a little more each day.

Agreed.

I am past the Coil phase, I know how they work, and some here are about to get past them as well. Thanks for posting that post Gunther, goes right along with I'm doing, moving on to the next phase. Does Stan's boards perform magic? The answer in no!!!! But they all work together in order to run a motor from idle to high speeds. Without them, you have no control over the cell and the gas it produces. You have no way to maintain cell pressure. You have no way to shut the cell down when pressure reaches a high pressures and turn it back on again when pressure reaches a low level of gas pressure. Nor do you have a way to maintain cell pressure at all. All this starts from that little transducer that sits on top of Stan's cell, without it all the boards are useless to run a motor or anything else. That little transducer tells his board what to do based on cell pressure believe it or not. I'm not trying to sell boards here and care less if anyone buys one. But once everyone get's past the coil phase, what's next? Turning the voltage up and down to keep from having a runaway cell. I would hate to be mowing my lawn or driving a vehicle with a fuel cell in the back, having to keep an eye on a pressure gauge in order to raise and lower the voltage on the cell to keep it making enough gas to keep the mower or vehicle running or making to much that it blows up.  I know what I needed to do, so I'm doing it. Once I get a good understanding on how he is using the GMS to control the cell, then I will have very few question to keep asking myself to find answers for. I'll just say this, once you figure out the coils to make the gas, you have a long way to go before you can use the gas that you make safely. If it bothers people that I post about my work and the boards that we have built then I can stop sharing my progress on them here. We are just building them to learn what we can from them. Something I wish I had done along time ago. Nate is bread boarding them as well learning from them. As I have stated no one has to buy a board, everyone should be able to look at the photo's and bread board everyone of them cheaper than they can buy one from us. All I ask is for everyone to at least bread board them and see what they do that is if your truly interested in Stan Meyers work. No one is breaking anyone's arm to do it. It's up to the individual if they see a useful need to learn from them.

Quote from gpssonar on February 1st, 2015, 02:42 PM

Nor do you have a way to maintain cell pressure at all.

Could I use one of these and just run the cell wide open?



Hey it's just water right, venting to the atmosphere shouldn't destroy the ozone or anything?


No, I hear you Ronnie.  It's all good.  I'm just cheap and use the parts I can scrounge.  :)

nav, as above, the pulse generator may have it's own resistors or even be a current source,
and since in your revised diagram the 'earths' are connected there is no difference,
real difference will be layout determined so your modification does hint at this.
So although the original diagram lacks detail (it is a functional block diagram, not a circuit diagram)
it is not fundamentally incorrect.



Matt; I have done a little research, mainly eBay and Wikipedia;

I think that compared to the overall WFC development cost you should consider something like
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Argon-Regulator-AR-Reduced-Pressure-Gas-Flowmeter-for-Tig-Welding-Machine-G5-8-/221656103385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item339bbbb9d9
or just
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOT-LZQ-2-0-5LPM-Oxygen-flow-meter-control-valve-Oxygen-conectrator-DS-UKU-/131404806129?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e985637f1

the flow meter would help to identify any 'sweet spot' for WFC operating variables,
most of the cheap types are calibrated for Argon, CO2, O2 or air
you will at least get a good indication of relative flow rate.

For conventional low voltage (1.23V per cell minimum) electrolysis
theoretical 100% efficiency is 11.7 kJ per litre of H2 = 1.5 litres of H2 + O2
so 1 litre per minute = 130W d.c. input

Commercial alkaline electrolysis cells are 60% to 70% efficient.

Conventional electrolysis cell can pressurise to over 100 Bar with about 3% loss of efficiency.
(100 Bar is too high for 'safe' hobby experimenting)

Once the 'sweet spot' operating variables have been found
a more reliable measure would be water displacement
e.g. how many electrical Joules required to fill a 1.5 litre plastic drinks bottle.

Ulltimately calorimitry of a WFC gas flame will be proof of efficiency.

I mention this because I believe that if true WFC progress is required
then some form of true measure of efficiency relative to a simple d.c. electrolysis cell is required

Let's face it,
if greater than 70% efficiency is not achievable with a WFC then it's not worth pursuing.

P.S
I see a great hazard for WFC researchers
due to the high voltages involved there is a real risk of arcing between electrodes within a WFC cell

(stoichiometric mixture of H2 and O2) + spark/arc = BOOM !!!!

Quote from gpssonar on February 1st, 2015, 02:42 PM

...
Does Stan's boards perform magic? The answer in no!!!! But they all work together in order to run a motor from idle to high speeds. Without them, you have no control over the cell and the gas it produces. You have no way to maintain cell pressure. You have no way to shut the cell down when pressure reaches a high pressures and turn it back on again when pressure reaches a low level of gas pressure. Nor do you have a way to maintain cell pressure at all. All this starts from that little transducer that sits on top of Stan's cell, without it all the boards are useless to run a motor or anything else. That little transducer tells his board what to do based on cell pressure believe it or not. I'm not trying to sell boards here and care less if anyone buys one. But once everyone get's past the coil phase, what's next? Turning the voltage up and down to keep from having a runaway cell. I would hate to be mowing my lawn or driving a vehicle with a fuel cell in the back, having to keep an eye on a pressure gauge in order to raise and lower the voltage on the cell to keep it making enough gas to keep the mower or vehicle running or making to much that it blows up.  I know what I needed to do, so I'm doing it. Once I get a good understanding on how he is using the GMS to control the cell, then I will have very few question to keep asking myself to find answers for. I'll just say this, once you figure out the coils to make the gas, you have a long way to go before you can use the gas that you make safely. If it bothers people that I post about my work and the boards that we have built then I can stop sharing my progress on them here. We are just building them to learn what we can from them. Something I wish I had done along time ago. Nate is bread boarding them as well learning from them.
...

those process control regulations can be done by 1 or 2 propeller microcontrollers and the same sensors you´ll be using. but that is more versatile and cheaper.
Ronnie, you learned and saw in 2010 at energeticforum the restrictions of those discrete boards. that´s the reason why i don´t understand why you are repeating the same loop once more.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on February 2nd, 2015, 03:07 AM

those process control regulations can be done by 1 or 2 propeller microcontrollers and the same sensors you´ll be using. but that is more versatile and cheaper.
Ronnie, you learned and saw in 2010 at energeticforum the restrictions of those discrete boards. that´s the reason why i don´t understand why you are repeating the same loop once more.

I think what gunther is saying is that we need to ignore something that worked, like Stan Meyer's tech ?
Dont go with something that worked.....JUST BUY A PEE-GEN.....JUST BUY A PEE-GEN.....

Neal (hydrofuelincanada), it´s a while ago that we had a conversation and at that time you were as inappropriate as now choosing your words. i know that you prefer to be impertinent but this is not the place to do so. why didn´t you stop to be childish as i told you?
how do you think you can take part at serious discussion and taken serious that way in this forum?


Nevertheless one point is correct but your spelling is wrong. Indeed PGen 2.0 pulse generator is a good choice to operate the pulsing and the sensors Stan Meyer used for process control. It´s much more versatile and cheaper than discrete solutions. Stan Meyer would have used it if it would have been availabe in the 80s.

Appended Stan Meyer´s WFC Newsletter 11a says on page 15 of the pdf: "Meyer calls the microchip a major key to the success of Water Fuel Cell".

And Stan was right as you and me know, Neal.

before i start, im not here to start a fight or piss anyone off. im just making an observation. and trying to say some words of helpfulness. 

Neal,

i understand your frustration and don't take this comment the wrong way.

 Gunther,

i understand that you may think this comment may be rude to you, but don't take it the wrong way.

i must say something here because that's what i'm suppose to do... for the better of the forum.

but, both of you need to understand that there are more than one way to skin a cat! and there is no one way to do it. not a wight way or a wrong way. mabey one way is better but in the end if it works who cares.

Gunther please note that you posted your PGen and you advertised it a lot. i even helped at one point. i under stand your frustration as it would be better to just make it a micro controller. BAM! done. no big deal and a lot cheaper. but that's not what they want to do. others are also perusing it this way and that's ok, there is nothing wrong with that. if you think its a waist of time and money then that's ok. but don't force it so hard. people learn this way of doing it the " hard way"

Neal, please watch how you speak. no i'm not hammering on you or saying you cant be honest. i'm just saying. we know how you can be and we also know how well we can all get along. Gunther wants to push micro controller. let him push it... i think its a good way to go. but i also see that what your guys are doing is also just swell. if it works Great!  not everyone has the brain power to do micro Programing. so i like the card idea. its a good teaching tool. its the basics.

what it comes down to is don't be so pushy.  everyone here gets to a point where we are pushing each other to do something the other way. but at the end if it works the way its being done... ... well great! 

so please carry on everyone. but just relax. lets work together.

 ~Russ



 

Quote from ~Russ on February 2nd, 2015, 02:32 PM

but, both of you need to understand that there are more than one way to skin a cat! and there is no one way to do it. not a wight way or a wrong way. mabey one way is better but in the end if it works who cares.

what a coincidence for duality :)

Agreed :idea:

and i guess i cant spell wright lol " wight"

Oh man, I didn't mean to stir up a mess, First of all this is to Gunther only. Gunther you have a great P-gen, I have always said that it taught me more than I ever knew about pulsing the coils. I know it help me to get things working again. I think you are right about using a device like you have for a complete system some day. But right now for me anyway, I want to explore what Stan's boards actual do, every one of them. That is the only way you or anyone can ever get feedback in order to program your P-Gen or any other device to make it do what it is suppose to. Maybe you and others are smart enough to see the boards and tell what they actually do without making them. Well I'm not that smart, I need to build them in order to see what they do. I'm smart enough to guess what they all do, but that's not good enough for me. I actually want to understand them, how they all work together, not just parts of them. That way someday we will have feedback on how to program a micro controller to do it, and not just parts of it. I have been here a few years, and I've seen a lot of things been build here. A lot of great work has been done elsewhere. I myself think Neal and I have done a great job replicating Stan's boards. Just look at that one board I posted above, to me that is doing Stan Meyer's justice. We will understand his boards and how they work, Just like you know how to program the P-gen to make it do the same thing. But I don't have the ability or education to program a P-Gen and If I did, I would not know where to start because without knowing how Stan's boards actually workes, what would be the use. I'm not here to down your P-Gen, never have and I never will. It's that I can't move forward without depending on you or other people to write programs for it. Maybe someday I can give you the feedback that you need to write a program for it. Now on to what Neal and I are actually doing. We are building all this in order to run a engine with injectors, not the water spark plug. That is what the GMS unit was first used for. Neal has already proven he can run a engine with brute force hho with LPG injectors, and you can see this in his video here.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV3LVixS3zY#ws This is why we need to build and understand all his boards, not just parts of them. I'm not here to push our boards on anyone, all we have to do really is to buy 5 for our team members which is a drop in a bucket as far as cost is involved. We could have bought every board in the GMS and VIC box with what money we spent on the 4 boards that we purchased a 100 each of for anyone that wanted them. So you can see it's not a stress on any of us for anyone to buy one from us. We just did this for everyone else too, if they wanted them. If no one wants them, that's not going to stop us because all we got to do is just have 5 made at a time instead of 100 and we move forward and everyone else will be left out of the loop just plain and simple. Again the cost of the board is not all that people are paying for if they buy one. I spent many many hours of my time replicating each and everyone of them to a PCB. My/Our time and effort that we have put into the boards is what people are paying for if they support our work. To me that is a fair trade for anyone that don't want to go through many many hours drawing up all these these boards. So let's all support each other, even if it's just saying Man your board looks good or your P-Gen works great. That's all I ask from anyone, that kind of support should mean more to us all than buying anything from anyone.


Also to Nav, Sorry about taking your thread off topic. I will be more careful in the future.
Thanks Gpssonar

Thanks Ronnie, now I understand. Maybe we get a 2nd chance for cooperation.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on February 2nd, 2015, 02:05 PM

Neal (hydrofuelincanada), it´s a while ago that we had a conversation and at that time you were as inappropriate as now choosing your words. i know that you prefer to be impertinent but this is not the place to do so. why didn´t you stop to be childish as i told you?
how do you think you can take part at serious discussion and taken serious that way in this forum?

Nevertheless one point is correct but your spelling is wrong. Indeed PGen 2.0 pulse generator is a good choice to operate the pulsing and the sensors Stan Meyer used for process control. It´s much more versatile and cheaper than discrete solutions. Stan Meyer would have used it if it would have been availabe in the 80s.

Appended Stan Meyer´s WFC Newsletter 11a says on page 15 of the pdf: "Meyer calls the microchip a major key to the success of Water Fuel Cell".

And Stan was right as you and me know, Neal.

Gunther,
everyone knows i have become a lot better at controlling myself. and I try to maintain a level of professionalism now. Otherwise i would have had a lot more to say.  I tell it like I see it...separate the chaff from the wheat, thats my job.

How much would it cost me for a complete p-gen setup ?

Gpssonar
You said that you past the Coil phase, and know how they work, and some here are about to get past them as well.
Can you share this part of your work to replicate it please? Coil phase is very important tech.
Thank you
andy

Quote from hydrofuelincanada on February 2nd, 2015, 06:06 PM

Gunther,
everyone knows i have become a lot better at controlling myself. and I try to maintain a level of professionalism now. Otherwise i would have had a lot more to say.  I tell it like I see it...separate the chaff from the wheat, thats my job.
...

ok, thanks. let´s see.

why Germans think they are much better than others??