In this thread we will discuss PFN's and if the VIC works like one.

Now Ronnie Walker tells everyone to study them. So I looked into them a while back, but didn't see the link. My first look was at the layout of the circuit, the arrangement of the inductors and capacitors. I didn't see any similarities. A PFN uses multiple caps and inductors in series and parallel. They couldn't be any more different. Plus the description, states that the pulses generated from the multiple caps and inductors form a single square wave type output with high current flow. Not what we're looking for.

So I took another look and noticed what was needed to get the PFN to work. It's this info that might lead to some new thoughts on how Stan's cell may perform as a PFN. In order for the PFN to work, the load and line need to be impedance matched. The line's impedance (coaxial), needs to match the impedance of the cell, for the network to perform as intended. Now what does that mean?
If we look at the VIC coils as the line, and the cell as the load, then these two items need to have a match in impedance. Now what does that mean? How do we determine the impedance of the coils, and the cell.

What is considered the impedance of the coils? Is it all the secondary coils? Secondary, positive and negative chokes? Does the primary influence the impedance? Is it measured when at idle or when it's working? In resonance or out?

How about the cells impedance? Is it just the measured reading or is it the readings when it is in operation? Again resonance? How do we measure it when it's working? Webmug has been taking readings with his set up when it's working, is that what we need?

Now because we have multiple coils on a single core, what about the mutual inductance? How does it come into play when we want to match impedance of the coils and cell? Again, Ronnie says to look at it also. Is it tested when at idle or resonance.

If the impedance is what we need to match up to get the WFC to work like a PFN, is that what is needed to make this work? Does the cells resistance, for the most part, need to match the coils? Is this why we need multiple tube sets in series, to increase the cells impedance, where a single tube just doesn't have enough of?

Lets see where this takes us. It's what Ronnie want us to research, in order to get this thing working, Let me know your thoughts.
Don

there is an aspect guiding to a PFN. it´s the bifilar winding of both chokes creating mutual capacitance and the sliced bobbins grouping numbers of windings and separating them from one another.

taking these aspects into account it shows that there is capacitance between the upper and lower part of the choke system and that there is stray capacitance within the chokes.

these are capacitances also found in PFNs.

Stan used two different types of coils. The one everyone is trying to replicate is the flat coils pack. That is the one used with the resonant WFC with eleven tube sets. The multi section coils like Ed uses, was meant to be used with the WFC Injector. It was meant to run in the 10's of kv range.
So there is a lot of differences in the two. Yes they both have capacitance, and that effects how they work together with the cell.

My direction is impedance matching of the coils to the cell. Is that what we need to look into?

Mutual inductance will need to be controlled as well.
Don

A little more research and I find that impedance is an AC thing. It is a measurement for AC signals. To measure it, it requires an AC signal generator. There was a good video on You Tube I watched that shows how to measure it in or out of a circuit. Still more research to do.
Don

Quote from Dynodon on December 16th, 2014, 05:00 PM

A little more research and I find that impedance is an AC thing. It is a measurement for AC signals. To measure it, it requires an AC signal generator. There was a good video on You Tube I watched that shows how to measure it in or out of a circuit. Still more research to do.
Don

Don, that's exactly what the impedance analyser device does, setting up a fix frequency 2Vpp and measure the impedance in a complex network.
~webmug

Looking back what I posted a while ago on this forum about AC resonance and PFN.
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=646.msg6727#msg6727

Now compare the scope-shot and look at the purple trace...AC resonance in the VIC to form UNIPOLAR PULSES?

~webmug

Here's a video that might be useful for testing our WFC's impedance. It's a simple way to see how the impedance can change with frequency. May need to try different value resistors in place of the 3500 ohm one before the cap. Now it won't tell us directly what the impedance is, but knowing the value of the resistor before the cap will give us an idea where were at.
Don

Don, ever wonder why all of Stan's coils on the secondary side is in the 70 ohm range? PFN's, Impedance matching, Radar... Check into it.

Don,
Here is a link to one of the suggested reads on PFNs:
http://www.tngun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/MM5005-Radio-Transmitter.pdf
Not sure if you read this one.

Quote from gpssonar on December 20th, 2014, 04:46 PM

Don, ever wonder why all of Stan's coils on the secondary side is in the 70 ohm range? PFN's, Impedance matching, Radar... Check into it.

The first thing that comes to mind, now that you asked, is that Stan always states the dielectric of water is 78.54. I only have a one tube cell, but it ohms out @ 10. So 6 tube sets would put me in the neighborhood of 70 ohms total.
Don

No it is not a pulse forming network the way this bum is telling you guys. The VIC is what controls each cell from a source that is at a constant amplitude. Example (8xa circuit).  The 8xa is a high side current limiting circuit. Ion transit is why he went to the high side. It is possible to pull the water apart from the high side before current is drawn from the low side by use of a resonant choke!. Do not mistake that with Cell resonance though. Cell resonance is the velocity of the water and gas being made thru the resonant cavity and is determined by the gate time. (more gas in the cell, higher the voltage goes). The heat generated from the water separation is easily pulled out with a 100watt heater element. The 8xa should run in the milliamp range. Changing the voltage changes the ion transit times, that affects the current limiting. Higher voltage = faster transit times. So, inorder to control the whole thing he invented the VIC, which if you read the patent on it, he states it is a control device and describes it as a "THERMOSTAT".  When the whole thing is setup correctly the VIC circuits control the amplitude of the pulse train thru each cell, and its very precise.

What I describe, I discovered 5 years ago and spent 5yrs afterward exploring every other possible way. This makes lots of gas for a very small amount of energy used. very very small.

Hardkrome, I think you missed to point on Ronnie's statements. He says to look at how a PFN works. He doesn't say that Stan's process is a PFN. I believe he wants us to look at the impedance matching that is required to form a PFN that is needed to get WFC to match up with the VIC. That is an electrical connection issue to get everything working smoothly together without reflections taking place in the circuits.

Have I missed something here? Do you claim to have it figured out or working? Where is any proof of what you describe works?  I would like to see it, as I would like to see others.
Don

Quote from Dynodon on December 21st, 2014, 07:43 AM

The first thing that comes to mind, now that you asked, is that Stan always states the dielectric of water is 78.54. I only have a one tube cell, but it ohms out @ 10. So 6 tube sets would put me in the neighborhood of 70 ohms total.
Don

Or.....you could impedance match your single tube with an impedance matching network. Radio antennae are usually 1000ohms but the matching network makes them 50ohms same as the radio!

Quote from Jamie H. on December 21st, 2014, 04:46 AM

Don,
Here is a link to one of the suggested reads on PFNs:
http://www.tngun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/MM5005-Radio-Transmitter.pdf
Not sure if you read this one.

Jamie, that's a lot of info there. I can see now where Stan got a lot of his terms from when he named his components. Resonant Cavity, Bifilar Chokes, Charging Choke, Blocking Diode. They all stem from his knowledge of radar. Starting to see the connections. Still a lot of reading left.
Thanks
Don

Don, I am surprised you haven't read this document, its what Nav's Ronnie's theories are mostly based on. I don't think vic and wfc are an one to one replacement of PFN and Magnetron as HardKrome assumes. But rather the fundamental knowledge behind it. Now what is harder is explaining it in straight forward simple terms.

So now it looks like you are making some kind of claim on how this all works, and that you even know how to do it, and offer no proof. If you were to take such claims to the patent office and ask for a patent of your claims only without proof, what do you think they will say? If someone isn't willing to show a working cell to back up their claims, and anyone takes them  with blind faith, then their just drinking the Kool Aid.

I said it before, and maybe you didn't catch it, I think Ronnie is only looking to show the similarities between the two, I don't believe that he ever said they were the same.

I'm no more an expert on this subject than you ,or anyone else here are. That's unless you claim otherwise. Just trying to figure it all out like everyone else. I am also not following anyone here, even Ronnie, but I will at least look at what he is saying and make my own judgment. So what do you have to offer, or suggest we look into? If you have nothing to offer the group, than why are you here? Just to call everyone blind and stupid to make yourself look big! From here your looking very small!
Don

With a little clicking, I've been able to find this video on Hardkrome's channel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XEP4BmGGz4#

You all can make up your own mind if it is proof or not.  I'm going to use my better judgement. ;)

 the VIC is a thermostat.

Bum to Hardrust here---- Lead them in the right direction, if you think that the Bum is leading them in the wrong direction. Floor is all yours, Let's forget the bragging right's here, Let's us see what you got to say, I don't need you to show me how much gas your making or a working model at all. Just give a brief description how it all works, and I will be able to tell if your full of BS or not.. Just a short description is all I ask for, you don't even have to give out all the details. This is your chance to put the Krome back into your name.

First thing you need to explain is the thermostat. I got to here this one..So far this is the first sign as being BS unless you explain it better.

I don't even know what you are talking about corrosion on the tube set. None of Stan's cells had any corrosion in or on them. I've always stated that the cells never had any white chalk type of material on them that one gets when they "Condition" them like Dave Lawton stated, that helped make more gas. That was probably the biggest mistake I can think anyone has ever put out there. As anyone could see from my pictures of the resonant cavity, there indeed is sediments in the bottom of the tubes. That is the brown scum we all get when using tap water in our cells. That should have been obvious to anyone who has ever put DC to a cell with tap water. That was the same brown scum left behind in Stan's tube sets. It wipes right off, but no corrosion. I have always stated that the tubes were spotless between themselves, ie no white chalk build up like straight electrolysis.  I always said that he was doing something different, because of the lack of white chalk.

If I wanted to give out disinfo, I would have never shared my pictures with anyone in the first place. Then where would anyone be now? Still guessing what the coils or the cell even looked like.
Your Welcome
Don

@all

do you think that this is the best way we can go here to cooperate?
struggle, fight, no progress demonstrated ...

if concurrence is the only way to go how about a 2015 build off for Stan Meyer Tech instead of pulse motor build off?

show what you can do and don´t talk about ...

I can´t believe what I see going on for a week now ...

Don don't let this guy get you down in the dumps, That is what he is here for. Without you no one would be talking about any of this including him. Stan Meyers discussions would have died along time ago if it wasn't for your photo's and hands on experience with all of it. We are seeing all this through your eyes and photo's. It's what's keeping it all alive. Keep working on what you think is right and don't let anyone including me stray you in any direction you don't want to go. Even if you go down the wrong path you can always back up and start a new one.

Quote from Hardkrome on December 21st, 2014, 02:15 PM

The last thing Im going to do is offer you any proof and let you be the judge!. Yes I can make all the gas I want, this is not rocket science. For those of you out there worshiping these so called experts, I would pay very close attention to what I stated, these people do not want you to know the truth.

Hardkrome, just a reminder, this is an OpenSource forum.  If you can find it in yourself to share your work, I would be more than happy to create a workbench area for you to do that.  The offer is on the table, you can certainly lead by example.  Just say the word.

Stan even said it acts as a pulse forming network. I guess he told us all a lie and I am just repeating it. No words mentioned about a thermostat. I have read every piece of material more times than i can count. And don't ever recall the word thermostat. But I open for someone to show me. Maybe I can learn something new. Again PNF's are used in the radar field, which Stan Meyers had a wealth of knowledge about. I've already studied all this, Now I'm going to study THERMOSTATS and see where that leads me. Back to research again, It never ends.

I come on here and tell you people some truth, If I were you I would look into what I am saying, because thats the only truth your going to get.

If you can not comprehend what I have said, which is rather simple. Then you have no business messing around with this stuff. It is self evident.