This thread was started to be used in calibration with the Builder Thread:

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1961.msg26532#msg26532

Read All Info There!!!!

~Russ

I'm starting this thread to coincide with the builder only thread. This is where you can start side discussion and, if you are a non-builder, you can reply to the builder only thread here. For members only.


Thanks
Jamie

Thanks HHO-Dan for clearing that up for me about the "lightbulb" test. I was hoping that someone would, if they knew it wouldn't work. Oh well. Back to the drawing board. Maybe we can come up with something else. There has gotta be a way of testing/verifying, that we could use to confirm the math.


Jamie

I have to wonder about the Secondary coil on the twin core set up.  Can we still conscider it Secondary to the Primary on a different core?  In thinking of just standard transformer actions, L2 would first be a Secondary coil, and then a Choke coil after the secondary on core #2 sends out its voltage.  This seems to me that there would be timing collisions in L2 from the current induced from the Primary through the core, and current conducted from the cell and second core and coils.   In the twin core set up, L2 is supplying power to the secondary?  In that case core #2 is really seeing L2 as another primary. 

Are we in need of relabeling these coils to better describe their true functions?  As far as I can make sense of it, core #1 still has a primary and secondary, while core #2 is two chokes with a diode in the middle, all hooked in series with the positive terminal of the cell and the start of windings of the secondary of core one. 

I'm positive I'm not realizing something, but i can't visulize how a secondary on core #2 gets charged to a voltage with out being on core #1.   

I guess starting with Stan's original coils on one core, I'd like to realize an order of operations in the transformer action.  Simplified.., one pulse into the primary, and resulting action of the other 3 coils.   Not counting resonance.   A coil on a transformer core that is not a completed circuit is not seen by the magnetic flux in the core.  Are the Choke coils seen as an open circuit while the Secondary coil is being charged by the flux in the core?  If not, we are dividing the flux in the core between 2 or 3 other coils depending if there is a picup coil, which I would guess has low current draw.  In that case, at a certain point in the order of operations, all other coils other than the primary are secondary coils.   The Choke coils look to be opposing the voltage in the Secondary at this point.  The voltage that the Choke coils produce in series, look like will over come the voltage of the Secondary.  So hypothetically, if each Choke makes 10 volts for a combined series voltage of 20 volts, and the secondary makes 10 volts in opposing polarity, there will only be 10 volts left traveling in the polarity of the Choke coils. 

 :s

Quote from firepinto on August 31st, 2014, 04:45 PM

The Choke coils look to be opposing the voltage in the Secondary at this point.  The voltage that the Choke coils produce in series, look like will over come the voltage of the Secondary.  So hypothetically, if each Choke makes 10 volts for a combined series voltage of 20 volts, and the secondary makes 10 volts in opposing polarity, there will only be 10 volts left traveling in the polarity of the Choke coils. 

 :s

and if this to be the case, then thats where you get your amp restriction in the apposing coils.

I'm rather convinced if you swap the labels of L2 and Secondary, you should still have a functioning system.  And in doing so, maybe something that is a bit easier to analyze and understand.

But for now, I would say to walk exactly in Ronnie's footsteps until you can do this with your eyes closed before even thinking about making any changes.  You guys are building a system that classical electrical engineers say is impossible.  Therefore, with what you know, there is no possible way you can explain how this actually works.  So you need to make it exactly the same and prove to yourself it does work; only then you can blow your mind apart figuring out why.

Yeah... I've pretty much fried my brain trying to figure out exactly how it works. By the descriptions and even firepinto's question, I can see how they work the same, comparing descriptions of this set up and Stan's in the tech brief.

Now, can someone answer a question for me?
Is anybody running a pc based oscilloscope with p-gen software simultaneously? Heatlocke is sending me a monitor as the screen on my laptop is busted. I was thinking I could fix my laptop and get a pc based scope for less money, than use the extra screen so each will have its own display. The laptop isn't the best. Just wonder if anyone has had any issues with a similar set up.

Thanks,
Jamie

Quote from Jamie H. on September 1st, 2014, 05:19 AM

Now, can someone answer a question for me?
Is anybody running a pc based oscilloscope with p-gen software simultaneously? Heatlocke is sending me a monitor as the screen on my laptop is busted. I was thinking I could fix my laptop and get a pc based scope for less money, than use the extra screen so each will have its own display. The laptop isn't the best. Just wonder if anyone has had any issues with a similar set up.
Thanks,
Jamie

The PGen 2.0 pulse wizard windows client does not take much processing power from the computer. a usb based scope will generate some traffic thru usb and take some cpu power for graphic display of the signals. PGen won´t be the bottleneck.
Btw. you can use the propeller quickstart board instead of the project board, if that´s not available for you ...

Thanks Gunther. Propeller quickstart board. I'll have to check that out. Didn't see a link for it.

Jamie

Gunther,
I found the quickstart board on ebay for 14.99 and ordered it. Thanks again for the info. :D
How much does the PGen software cost? I'll have to start with the demo version for now but, will be looking to buy it when I can.

Jamie

Quote from Jamie H. on September 1st, 2014, 08:00 AM

Gunther,
I found the quickstart board on ebay for 14.99 and ordered it. Thanks again for the info. :D
How much does the PGen software cost? I'll have to start with the demo version for now but, will be looking to buy it when I can.

Jamie

Got one Quickstart board Rev A today in the mail :) Looks great too!!! Very tiny board. PGen loads into RAM. Now working on connecting my two channel driver hardware board.

So yes, testing PGen in evaluation mode works too, but best if I bought a unrestricted version later... :thumbsup2:

~webmug

@webmug
what driver hardware board are you using for your switch?

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 1st, 2014, 10:00 AM

@webmug
what driver hardware board are you using for your switch?

Updated: attachment
Well I'm using a DIY stripboard with some resistors, caps ,diodes,TC4420 drivers and IRFP460s. Thing should work with 3.3V input logic from the propeller chip? Not tested it yet! I also used this circuit with my waveform generator as a source.

~webmug

Sweet Webmug! Was it the P8x32A?

Quote from Jamie H. on September 1st, 2014, 10:44 AM

Sweet Webmug! Was it the P8x32A?

This is the one: http://www.parallax.com/product/40000

~webmug

Quote from Webmug on September 1st, 2014, 10:43 AM

Updated: attachment
Well I'm using a DIY stripboard with some resistors, caps ,diodes,TC4420 drivers and IRFP460s. Thing should work with 3.3V input logic from the propeller chip? Not tested it yet! I also used this circuit with my waveform generator as a source.

~webmug

TC442x datasheet says 0.8V for low and 2.4V for high level.
so it should work. I would add in a 6N137 optocoupler, a 4.7k resistor as pull up for the open collector output of the coupler and a 200 ohm resistor for the led input.
then you have a galvanic barrier between your coil and the microcontroller which is coupled to your computer.

just to be safe ...

propeller and PGen work at a 3.3V logic level. less than 3.3/2 V represents logic 0 and more than 3.3/2 V represents logic 1.
simple threshold, no schmitt-trigger.

 @Webmug

Yep! That be the one!

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 1st, 2014, 11:07 AM

TC442x datasheet says 0.8V for low and 2.4V for high level.
so it should work. I would add in a 6N137 optocoupler, a 4.7k resistor as pull up for the open collector output of the coupler and a 200 ohm resistor for the led input.
then you have a galvanic barrier between your coil and the microcontroller which is coupled to your computer.

just to be safe ...

propeller and PGen work at a 3.3V logic level. less than 3.3/2 V represents logic 0 and more than 3.3/2 V represents logic 1.
simple threshold, no schmitt-trigger.

Thanks Gunther! I look into it...don't want to blow up my propeller chip or PC. :D.. good thing, there is a dual package opto available too :)

~webmug

because of negative coupler logic then you have to use a 4429 instead of 4420. but they are pin compatible :-)

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 1st, 2014, 12:48 PM

because of negative coupler logic then you have to use a 4429 instead of 4420. but they are pin compatible :-)

That wont work, the mosfet is always pulling max current when driving it in the GATE duty cycle off state (no PULSE). I think I know what you are trying to say, the signal is inverted to the primary coil, yes?

~webmug

no, a high to the led of the optcoupler will create a connect to GND for the open collector output of the optocoupler, that´s negative logic at the pullup resistor. so you need a mosfet driver which also inverts once more to get positive logic signal to the mosfet gate.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 1st, 2014, 01:24 PM

no, a high to the led of the optcoupler will create a connect to GND for the open collector output of the optocoupler, that´s negative logic at the pullup resistor. so you need a mosfet driver which also inverts once more to get positive logic signal to the mosfet gate.

Hmm, okay. Need to change the driver... :cool:

~webmug

Just curious, what power source voltage are most people using to pulse with?

I ask because the switch driver I built uses IGBTs rated to 600 volts and I know Gunther has found transistors that goes much higher.

Is the limiting factor the number of turns on the primary and the saturation value of the core you guys are using?

Quote from Matt Watts on September 1st, 2014, 01:52 PM

Just curious, what power source voltage are most people using to pulse with?

I ask because the switch driver I built uses IGBTs rated to 600 volts and I know Gunther has found transistors that goes much higher.

Is the limiting factor the number of turns on the primary and the saturation value of the core you guys are using?

quote from Ronnie,

"I am going to bring this high tech talk back down to basic electronics. A person sent me a private email asking me what the ampacity of the wire size that Stan used has to do with anything. Maybe there are other people out there that want's to know also.
Again here I go trying to be a teacher again, we all know what to expect when I try to teach. LOL
Wll here goes, As we all know from Don's drawings of Stan's Vic and the values he took from them. Lets take the primary of Stan's Vic it has a ohm value of 10.5 ohms, Keep this in mind.
From Don's findings the wire Stan used was 29 awg wire. If we look up the ampacity of that wire size, the max. current is 1.2 amps for that wire size.
With this wire size we know we can not go over 1.2 amps or it will heat up and destroy the coating.
We also know that he used 12 volts to the primary.
Now if you take 12 volts /10.5 ohms that gives you 1.14 amps
1.14 amps is less than what the ampacity is of the wire size and does not exceed the max. current for this wire.
Now that we know the voltage and and amps. we can calculate the Watts.
12 volts * 1.14 amps = 13.68 watts
We have to keep everything within the ampacity of the wire size being used.
His whole VIC has this same wire size, So this tells us that no where in the VIC it should go over 1.2 amps."

this should answer your question Matt.

12V at less than 1.2A will do the trick...

most all the answers to theses types of questions is in the this thread:

 http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=876.0

yes its a lot of reading but just tread GPS's posts....

ignore the rest for fun...

im using a 0-30V 5A supply. but most of my tests have been 300MA or below. ( and i cranked up the voltage to 150VDC but still maintaining my 300MA using gating.

from my tests going past 15V or so input dose not help you much. it still has a peek of witch it will charge. ( from my unsuccessful tests currently)