What if we wanted to cast away the 12 Volt limitation and go with a higher base voltage since component technology is improving?  Easier to reach the desired Voltage Stan calls for at the cell?  Eliminate the need for a primary?  I think we could worry about how to run it on a cars electrical system after this is all figured out. 

Different thread?

Quote from firepinto on September 1st, 2014, 03:57 PM

What if we wanted to cast away the 12 Volt limitation and go with a higher base voltage since component technology is improving?  Easier to reach the desired Voltage Stan calls for at the cell?  Eliminate the need for a primary?  I think we could worry about how to run it on a cars electrical system after this is all figured out. 

Different thread?

lol might be a need for a Different thread lol


:) i like the open mindedness tho :)

~Russ

The work I did with my Plasma Ignition System showed me how relatively easy it is to assemble a 1000 volt DC supply that can be pulsed.

I also know that a small gauge wire can handle a lot more amperage when pulsed than with continuous input.  Same with a resistor.

The final piece though is the number of primary turns and voltage.  At low frequencies it is real easy to saturate a core.  At higher frequency and narrow pulsed DC you can still saturate the core, which is where number of turns and core dimensions come into play.  Because this VIC setup requires resonance to function, it seems to me you want to stay far away from saturation which only leads to amp draw, a big no-no here.

So what I'm getting at is achieving a good working voltage.  If you retain a high turn count on the primary, you avoid saturation, but at the same time you reduce the step-up potential of the transformer.  So this is where I'm wondering if starting out with a higher voltage entering the primary would be beneficial.  I think we have some ways to maximize voltage if it appears it is required for optimal production.

IMO Stan Meyer started with higher voltages at the primary as some of his drawings show. then, after he knew how to create the leverage effect he redesigned the voltage down to 12V car level.

The problem arising using voltages in the hundreds for the primary pulsing is that you have to use isolated power supplies delivering DC voltage in the hundreds (pic attatched goes up to 200 V DC)

or you have to use an isolation transformer 1:1 and add in an active power factor correction module with an output of 300 - 400 V DC.

http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/DC-DC-Converters-feature-power-factor-correction-26794

It can be done. I have built one, it´s not too difficult.
... I have some more PFC modules on stack.

of course if you want to get zapped and kill yourself or be put to jail by the FCC you can directly connect your primary switch to the grid :-/
... but I won´t ...

This is a reply to the builder only thread. A cell enclosure doesn't necessarily have to be round. I hope this opens some more options for you.

Jamie

can anyone verify my modifications to a diagram posted regarding bobbin style vic coil
I"ve inserted what I think the chokes should look like , is this correct?

That would be an accurate way, it all depends on how wide your grove and the diameter of your wire is.

bonded wire is the one way to make sure the wire is side by side...

~Russ

by the way...

I'm going to give you all some info to use:

if working on the injector Matrix VIC Bobbin Coil...

You Wont Find This Info Anywhere Else...

Primary:
21AWG .028Ga 200 turns
Copper Wire
3 Layers Thick.
80FT of Wire
1.0216 OHM's per spool

12V@1.5A 20Watts Max
1.2A max on the wire...

secondary:
44AWG .0020Ga 6,500 Turns Per Cavity. 200Layers Thick per cavity.
 84,500Turns Per Spool. ( 13 Cavity's)
2,000FT per Cavity, 26,000FT Per Spool.
Copper Wire
67.34Kohms per spool ( 67,340,000 Ohms)

Chokes:
***Bifilar Wound, 16.331932 Ohms Per Ft
36.5AWG, .0047GA, 125Turns per Cavity,  25Layers Thick per Cavity
1625Turns Per Spool ( 13 Cavity's)
55Ft Per Choke Per Cavity, 715Ft Per Choke Per Spool.
430FR Stainless Seal
11.7Kohms per choke.

oh my brain...
not done yet!

now for the fun stuff:

Total resistance of 67430023.4 OHMS + RE

Z Secondary circuit= 67363478.54 Ohms.

add 6.7K ohm resistor in parallel with primary coil
Z Primary circuit 6701.02 Ohms.

if i got all this right you should be matched and ready to inject... wow what a workout.

wow that only took all morning...

me bran hearts

Shew... I'm taking the rest of the day off. ,

~Russ

excellent info

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 1st, 2014, 12:48 PM

because of negative coupler logic then you have to use a 4429 instead of 4420. but they are pin compatible :-)

@gunther,
There are three different opto-coupler circuits to use, none-inverting, inverting at input, inverting at output and is most common :)
EDIT:(I will try the first). oops 3rd circuit must be used, emitters are tied to gnd internal for a HCPL2630 :cool:

http://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/Optokoppler


~webmug

HCPL2630 is a speedy one - so it´s a good choice if it´s logic fits to your switch :-)

It´s not just 1 single resonance frequency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w#ws


... so the question is "what resonance are we looking for?"

transformer, water, tubes, ...

I'm wondering if stans second choke was a different length so that it matched exactly same frequency that first choke resonates at ( i realise much discussion on this) Puharich gives frequencies he thought were best for splitting water, you would expect it will make a difference.
Although stans image of the waves in the tube style cell are symmetric and simple, its possible it will be a more complex waveform.
Lets say you have a voltage wave eminating from each wall of the tube cell, you could imagine it as two water waves colliding with each other, if those waves are not exactly parallel you will get a third wave produced with twice the ampitude and different speed. Has anyone ever seen a backwash at a beach colliding with incoming waves? if they are just off parallel you get a third wave where they collide which can travel very fast compared to the original waves ( also its in 90degree shifted direction.
I realise stans picture of the waves has then eminating from the centre between the cell walls,
that might be correct but the two chokes would need to be in exact same frequency of resonance for this to occur ( is my guess), stan certainly knew what he was doing, his diagram is probably correct.

Found flat u cores with specs. Pretty expensive.

http://www.tme.eu/en/details/u93_76_16-3c90/ferrite-cores/ferroxcube/

@all,

I was wondering if someone has seen the Unipolar gated pulses after the diode? Seen in figure 3-20. Tech brief 3-37.
The gated 50% pulses from the electronic generator are translated to unipolar gated pulses due inductive coupling of the charging chokes.

This should be seen with a cell connected to the VIC transformer.

~webmug

Quote from Jamie H. on September 1st, 2014, 05:19 AM

Yeah... I've pretty much fried my brain trying to figure out exactly how it works. By the descriptions and even firepinto's question, I can see how they work the same, comparing descriptions of this set up and Stan's in the tech brief.

Now, can someone answer a question for me?
Is anybody running a pc based oscilloscope with p-gen software simultaneously? Heatlocke is sending me a monitor as the screen on my laptop is busted. I was thinking I could fix my laptop and get a pc based scope for less money, than use the extra screen so each will have its own display. The laptop isn't the best. Just wonder if anyone has had any issues with a similar set up.

Thanks,
Jamie

Hi Jamie,
I bought the Valleman 250 USB scope It has a Freq gen built in and I hate it... It crashes and is hard to use ..
Went back to the old O scope I got on Feebay. (New old stock)

The input on most USB scopes is only 5V the old scope is 20V.

Once we know what to do I dont think the scope will matter that much.
Quick note,
I ran the Sim with both the new GPS twin setup (L2-S1-L1) and the old Stan setup (twin core) and they looked about the same

Russ,29AWG can handle more watts?

Example 29AWG can't reach more amps than 1.2amps but voltage go to higher level like 300volts.
If 29AWG use 300V and 1Amps =300watts then the wires will melt or not?

Thanks
Geenee

Quote from geenee on October 2nd, 2014, 08:43 AM

Russ,29AWG can handle more watts?

Example 29AWG can't reach more amps than 1.2amps but voltage go to higher level like 300volts.
If 29AWG use 300V and 1Amps =300watts then the wires will melt or not?

Thanks
Geenee

hi Geenee,

to answer your question, Yes you can go higher wattage's but your max is limited to some factors such as
isolation strength and heat tolerance. ECT each type has its own C ratings.

the wattage i calculated was for 12V @1.5A

hope this answers your Questions.

~Russ

Dan,

I just saw your post. That is good to know. I hope you didn't pay a lot for it. Thanks for the info. Much helpful.

Jamie

fyi:

http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2118.msg28654#msg28654

Ed & Gpssonar talks about isolated grounding in different ways.
To my knowledge Ed calls the negative plate as the grounding and no physical grounding is there in VIC(sec side)
Gpssonar points out the isolated ground being between sec choke and negative choke. Is he really making a physical ground there.
How does the isolated grounding looks in the 2 core setup

realty, the isolated ground is between the secondary coil and the negative choke.
That only means that the ground is isolated from the primary coil side. They are only connected through the magnetic field generated by the core material when pulsed. There is no physical connection between the primary side of the circuit and the secondary coil, chokes and cell. Isolated!
Don

also this ground according to GPS was a key to understanding the VIC.

he states in the other thread somewhere that the ground is out side the secondary...

if we look at any transformer that has a secondary we can see that the center ( if it has a center tap if not its still in the center of the coil) is where the ground is.

so if we have a secondary coil and 2 inductors on either side of the secondary then we we still should have a ground in the secondary of witch is in the center of the coil...

BUT.. as GPS pointed out and obsessed over... why dose Stan show the " isolated ground" out side of the secondary???

this is important. and it has a reason.

 me and Alex indirectly discussed this in our last video. that side of the circuit is truly a ground point. but yes its "isolated" its floating... unless its earth grounded.

in Stan's  original schematics the ground is truly grounded.

in my tests I found that  if its earth grounded its dose have a much better amplitude. but i cant say at this time its helpful... more testing needed

~Russ

HELP!!! Is Eq. 21 from the tech brief corrected as follows: C = .2249 X E X A divided by D in picofarads
.2249 is pf per inch. e is dielectric constant of water 78.54 X area of inner surface divided by gap ?
 
I've been trying to run through the tech brief math but my numbers are all over the place. I wanted to make sure this isn't what is throwing me off. I think I'm going to have to write my own version of the tech brief math using complex derivatives just to know the correct unit of measure where they aren't expressed. Is anyone else having this problem? Is another way to correct this is to convert all capacitances to farads and all inductances to henrys? Is anyone else getting negative impedance from Eq. 1 Z= XC-XL? or do these need to be switched when inductance > capacitance or is negative impedance a desired effect?

From Rav,

hope this helps

"Surface area:
I'm still a little cautious explaining the surface area this way...  I don't really like it... but it seemed to get us closer to our capacitor value.  It might have been due to the way we were calculating the cylindrical capacitor... I never really figured it out.

Anyways...

Stan's Eq. for Capacitance. (Page: 7-8, Eq: 21)
C = (.2249*e*A) / (e0*d)

Units:
A = Square Inches
d = Inches
.2249 = picoFarads/Inch
e/e0... is a ratio... UNITLESS (This is "kappa"... I.E. Dielectric Constant.)

"A" = Area...
1) Find Surface Area of the Inner Electrode.
2) Find Surface Area of the Outer Electrode.
3) Add Both of those Surface Areas together.

Note:
The Constant Value: .2249 is...
8.854187817 x 10^-12 Farads/Meter
and
Generally accepted in the scientific community as 8.85 x 10^-12 Farads/Meter

Use dimensional analysis to take the meters and turn it into inches.
Conversion factor: (1meter ≈ 39.37 inches)"