In my continuing studies of Stans work, I keep coming back to thought I have. Stans claims to use his VIC circuit to restrict amps and allow voltage to rise and perform the work of pulling the water molecule apart.

Now we all know that Stans circuit relies on LC resonance to create the high voltage. At LC resonance we get the greatest voltage with the least amount of current flow. We also know his circuit was designed to lock into resonance, which it did.

OK now for my thoughts about an Amp Restriction Circuit. This question is for the electronics experts out there.
Is it possible to make a simple circuit that could sense amp flow? What I'm thinking is, if we could put a electronic component in the input line going to the cell, that could sense the flow of amps, we could use that to trigger the circuit to turn off when we hit a max current. Then when current stops flowing or is reduced to a minimum amount, it would turn the circuit back on. It would then become a self resonant cycle all by itself. Now we could be turning on and off just straight DC power or a frequency generator set at a given frequency. It could actually become the gate signal.

Now doesn't this make sense to some? By turning off the power to the cell, we would be able to keep amps from flowing, and in return may even give us a voltage rise. I think we could still use the VIC coil pack with chokes, or we may not even need the chokes, but maybe just an off the shelf step up transformer from a DC powered neon sign would give us a high voltage source.

To me it makes sense, and that it should work. The sensing circuit could have a pot to adjust the current we would use to trigger the circuit. I mean it would allow us to raise or lower how much current we would allow the cell to pull before turning it off.

So what do you all think? Feed back is welcome on the general idea.
Don

I really don't see how you would get the self resonant "Meyer" action this way by sensing when the current is at a max and then by swiching off the circuit having it starting up again as the current is zero, to be repeated over and over.

Anyway, one really simple way would be to add a low Ohm resistor, like in the milli Ohm range, in series with one of the cables going to the cell, that way the voltage over the resistor would be linear to the current going through it, which in turn could be used as an indicator to how big the current is to the cell.

http://www.neundorfer.com//knowledge_base/electrostatic_precipitators.aspx#psac3
http://www.neundorfer.com/FileUploads/RichTextboxImages/Flash/powersystemcomp.swf

I think you're wanting to look into something like this.  :D  :cool:  :P
Same ideas... different application.  :D  :cool:  :P
The "voltage controller" would be the piece that does most of the work.
I.E. Its the brain of the system.

I'm not an Electrical Engineer... but the principles with which Electrostatic Precipitators operate seem to be a place to start.

Components:
Primary Side: "CLR" = Current Limiting Reactor
Secondary Side: "ACR" = Air Core Reactor
Both components help to prevent the sustained arc from damaging the equipment.

Quote from Lynx on February 5th, 2014, 09:03 AM

I really don't see how you would get the self resonant "Meyer" action this way by sensing when the current is at a max and then by swiching off the circuit having it starting up again as the current is zero, to be repeated over and over.

I'm saying we can use a circuit to sense when current starts to flow, then switch off the power/generator signal to the transformer/VIC coil, Then the circuit would be automatically turn back on when current drops. The circuit would need to be able to adjust at what level of current we won't to stop at and even turn back on when it drops. It doesn't need to return to 0 amps. So a low and high value that we can tune in to. It would be a self resonant circuit on it's own.
Don 

Quote from Dynodon on February 5th, 2014, 10:27 AM

I'm saying we can use a circuit to sense when current starts to flow, then switch off the power/generator signal to the transformer/VIC coil, Then the circuit would be automatically turn back on when current drops. The circuit would need to be able to adjust at what level of current we won't to stop at and even turn back on when it drops. It doesn't need to return to 0 amps. So a low and high value that we can tune in to. It would be a self resonant circuit on it's own.
Don

Sounds to me as though you're out to get a current limit function, in which case you could use a low (milli-) Ohm resistor in the secondary circuit which triggers a high speed optocoupler which in turn sees to it to switch off the primary pulsing of the VIC.
Another option would be to use a DCA clamp circuit around one of the cables on the secondary going to the cell, that way you're (also) galvanically decoupled from the secondary.
Here's a simple DIY circuit using a Hall effect transducer, http://scienceshareware.com/how-to-measure-AC-DC-current-with-a-hall-effect-clamp-.htm

Quote from Ravenous Emu on February 5th, 2014, 09:15 AM

http://www.neundorfer.com//knowledge_base/electrostatic_precipitators.aspx#psac3
http://www.neundorfer.com/FileUploads/RichTextboxImages/Flash/powersystemcomp.swf

I'm not an Electrical Engineer... but the principles with which Electrostatic Precipitators operate seem to be a place to start.

That' s more along the lines of the electrostatic filter Stan used to remove the junk in the water, when circulated back to the tank.
I see it also has a current measuring system as well.
That would be the part I would be interested in.
Don

Quote from Lynx on February 5th, 2014, 01:18 PM

Sounds to me as though you're out to get a current limit function, in which case you could use a low (milli-) Ohm resistor in the secondary circuit which triggers a high speed optocoupler which in turn sees to it to switch off the primary pulsing of the VIC.
Another option would be to use a DCA clamp circuit around one of the cables on the secondary going to the cell, that way you're (also) galvanically decoupled from the secondary.
Here's a simple DIY circuit using a Hall effect transducer, http://scienceshareware.com/how-to-measure-AC-DC-current-with-a-hall-effect-clamp-.htm

That's seems to be a good way of measuring amps. I'm thinking we'll need to be in the milliamps range.
Thanks for that info
Don

Quote from Dynodon on February 5th, 2014, 01:59 PM

That's seems to be a good way of measuring amps. I'm thinking we'll need to be in the milliamps range.
Thanks for that info
Don

job for a microcontroller :-)

why?

to be flexible for test. you can´t set up a fixed circuit behaviour until you really know the feedback loop (frequency, voltage, gating, duty, temp etc.)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lB3HBoKPbOQ

this is a great video for controling current,imho.

thanks
geenee

See class A

http://share.pdfonline.com/5ae59a0009f44562b8c325f6045f67fb/commutation.pdf

You pulse the voltage behind the scr, you do not gate it. (that is your frequency)  The Scr is the (gate.)  Amp meter can go between the positive choke and the cell and the cell and negative choke.  You do not need a rectified pulse from a bridge.

A frequency will be determined based on cell capacitance and the choke sizing. You will be able to watch the square pulses and scr turning the circuit off, use 0-100vdc. It is not only a amp inhibiting circuit, it also is a resonate circuit. When you pull water apart you free electrons, you should be able to barely draw a load from the source, yet pull amps worth of electrons loose in the water and have little to no amps pulling thru the negative choke and is also why he used 0-100v.

If done correctly in resonance, the power supply will only see a load in the milliamp range. The (threat) of current is what draws the water apart before the current can be used across the cell.

So, the main idea behind this is high side current limiting to the choke. The square pulsed frequency ensures that the scr turns off, even if it wants to lock in.

Quote from Ravenous Emu on February 5th, 2014, 09:15 AM

http://www.neundorfer.com//knowledge_base/electrostatic_precipitators.aspx#psac3
http://www.neundorfer.com/FileUploads/RichTextboxImages/Flash/powersystemcomp.swf

I think you're wanting to look into something like this.  :D  :cool:  :P
Same ideas... different application.  :D  :cool:  :P
The "voltage controller" would be the piece that does most of the work.
I.E. Its the brain of the system.

I'm not an Electrical Engineer... but the principles with which Electrostatic Precipitators operate seem to be a place to start.

Components:
Primary Side: "CLR" = Current Limiting Reactor
Secondary Side: "ACR" = Air Core Reactor
Both components help to prevent the sustained arc from damaging the equipment.

Electro can you order this in Oz?

I tried 2 times from different source in us and being restrictive



Dan

Quote from Hardkrome on February 10th, 2014, 07:53 PM

See class A

http://share.pdfonline.com/5ae59a0009f44562b8c325f6045f67fb/commutation.pdf

You pulse the voltage behind the scr, you do not gate it. (that is your frequency)  The Scr is the (gate.)  Amp meter can go between the positive choke and the cell and the cell and negative choke.  You do not need a rectified pulse from a bridge.

A frequency will be determined based on cell capacitance and the choke sizing. You will be able to watch the square pulses and scr turning the circuit off, use 0-100vdc. It is not only a amp inhibiting circuit, it also is a resonate circuit. When you pull water apart you free electrons, you should be able to barely draw a load from the source, yet pull amps worth of electrons loose in the water and have little to no amps pulling thru the negative choke and is also why he used 0-100v.

If done correctly in resonance, the power supply will only see a load in the milliamp range. The (threat) of current is what draws the water apart before the current can be used across the cell.

So, the main idea behind this is high side current limiting to the choke. The square pulsed frequency ensures that the scr turns off, even if it wants to lock in.

valuable document. thanks!
Meyer using the SCR in his early 8XA only showed that he understood how to create an oscillating circuit that was able to switch off the SCR as described in the pdf.
whenever he had to switch without these oscillations he used transistors like 2N3055, the most powerful alternative at that time.

today we have excellent substitutes called MosFets and there is no need to use SCRs any more for low power applications.

that mean"Meyer known Electronic very well".that is resonant circuit like he said.he didn't create the new word for calling circuit.

SCR is popular in 80s-90s.

thanks for PDF,Hardkrome.great find.
geenee

I would stick with using an scr. It serves as a timing marker when it turns off.

Quote from Dynodon on February 5th, 2014, 08:46 AM

In my continuing studies of Stans work, I keep coming back to thought I have. Stans claims to use his VIC circuit to restrict amps and allow voltage to rise and perform the work of pulling the water molecule apart.

Now we all know that Stans circuit relies on LC resonance to create the high voltage. At LC resonance we get the greatest voltage with the least amount of current flow. We also know his circuit was designed to lock into resonance, which it did.

OK now for my thoughts about an Amp Restriction Circuit. This question is for the electronics experts out there.
Is it possible to make a simple circuit that could sense amp flow? What I'm thinking is, if we could put a electronic component in the input line going to the cell, that could sense the flow of amps, we could use that to trigger the circuit to turn off when we hit a max current. Then when current stops flowing or is reduced to a minimum amount, it would turn the circuit back on. It would then become a self resonant cycle all by itself. Now we could be turning on and off just straight DC power or a frequency generator set at a given frequency. It could actually become the gate signal.

Now doesn't this make sense to some? By turning off the power to the cell, we would be able to keep amps from flowing, and in return may even give us a voltage rise. I think we could still use the VIC coil pack with chokes, or we may not even need the chokes, but maybe just an off the shelf step up transformer from a DC powered neon sign would give us a high voltage source.

To me it makes sense, and that it should work. The sensing circuit could have a pot to adjust the current we would use to trigger the circuit. I mean it would allow us to raise or lower how much current we would allow the cell to pull before turning it off.

So what do you all think? Feed back is welcome on the general idea.
Don

I think this is an area that is constantly over-thought.

Meyer's Voltage Intensifier Circuit is Meyer terminology for what is just basically a step-up transformer, and by their very nature step-up transformers naturally provide a higher output voltage while delivering a lower output current. The power out cannot exceed the power in, hence the current limiting is inherent in any step-up transformer. And the higher the voltage is stepped up to, the lower - or more restricted - the current will be. This is just basic transformer theory. 

Example: 12 volt, 5 amps input, equates to, 12,000 volts, 5 milliamps output

If that's not enough current restriction (and let's face it, it really should be), then simply up the voltage further!

LC resonance has nothing to do with it (indeed can't have anything to do with it)... at least as long as that blocking diode is in place!

Farrah Day, Yes everything you just posted is true, but the point I am trying to make is, the cell will always want to pull current. That's the one thing we want to stop from happening. Even if we use a step up transformer that outputs 2kv, the cell will just pull that voltage down to a couple volts, because of the cells ability to pull current. So my point was, could we use a simple circuit to turn off the power pulses when current starts to flow. That way the voltage we apply to the cell, might have a chance to rise at the cell, while restricting current.
Don

Its a resonant current limiting circuit. I thought that was made clear based on the info I posted. Its is all about Speed. If it is done fast enough it will only draw a load in the milliamps range. It dosent matter how much current/voltage it wants to pull or what you have hooked up to it. 

Hardkrome, LC resonance is one thing, yes it does restrict amps when resonance is found. But that still doesn't restrict the amps the cell pulls. The cells capacitance has very little effect on LC resonance. LC resonance takes place in the chokes. LC resonance alone doesn't make it work. It is only one part of the puzzle. The high voltage you get out of the VIC is still sucked up by the cell.

My idea is just that, an idea to try.
Don 

Quote from Dynodon on February 14th, 2014, 01:21 PM

The high voltage you get out of the VIC is still sucked up by the cell.

Maybe.  What if the impulses hitting the cell happen so rapidly, the cell hasn't the time to react?  Actually, the water doesn't have time to react, i.e. it accepts the charge as just a charge, not a current flow.  Let's say you place a spark gap (high voltage switch) between the VIC and the cell.  The voltage climbs in the VIC until it jumps the gap.  At that point there is a charge on the cell, but very soon after this, the spark is gone, now you have an open circuit externally to the cell and opposite charge on the two electrodes within the cell.  Granted, this charge won't last long, but it will impose some level of ionization.  Once the charge dissipates, hit it again.  My theory here is if this fails to cause any gas production, I'm very suspicious as to whether voltage alone can perform any work splitting water, in which case, there is far more to the story.

ok

here are some ideas to brainstorm on...

1. We would need a circuit to test the current draw.

once the current reach a certain level lets say 2 amps then it trigers to off possition.
under 2 amps it trigers to on possition.

for the logic sequence above we could use  an amp probe connected to arduino circuit and programed with those parameters...

2. Another way would be to use a relay that is normaly closed and when reaches 2 amp will open the contact and  de-energized  cell circuit.
cell current drops then the coil field colapses reinganging the normaly closed contact. carefull chossing of relay and resister network requred for this to work
properly.

3. Another way would be to use a 2 amp circuit breaker.  The problem is how can it reset itself automaticaly?

4. Another way would be to use an inline current limiting resistor.. this would probably heat up dou. and cause voltage drop.

what do you think?

There are some ways to implement those observation circuits.


But there is a problem:

you can make a quick and dirty setup and then operational parameters are poor and it´s difficult to create useful results, if any ...

as an alternative you can build or buy a powerful circuit for in depth analysis of the effects, but then it takes time and money to build the setup.


to understand that you have to compare laboratory equipment from companies and universities to homebuilt setups and you will see the difference ...


as long as experimenters can´t or don´t spend the money needed for those setups they won´t be made available ... So there is no market for these products  :idea:
that´s the problem ...


but there are ways to proceed ...


just some appetizers ... :


2 channels scope (let´s say Rigol DS1052E) connected for voltage and current measurement, coupled to a windows client program observing measured power dynamics and that windows program controlling a pulse generator in a closed loop regulator configuration should give the insights needed.

or expand a pulse generator for voltage and current measurement and let it do the whole job on it´s own.


who will program those products and who will buy them?

to answer that question take a look at those individuals marking their threads here as "BUILDER:"

now it seams reasonable that devices used have to have smart features to make the invisible visible, doesn´t it?

Quote from Dynodon on February 14th, 2014, 08:44 AM

Farrah Day, Yes everything you just posted is true, but the point I am trying to make is, the cell will always want to pull current. That's the one thing we want to stop from happening. Even if we use a step up transformer that outputs 2kv, the cell will just pull that voltage down to a couple volts, because of the cells ability to pull current. So my point was, could we use a simple circuit to turn off the power pulses when current starts to flow. That way the voltage we apply to the cell, might have a chance to rise at the cell, while restricting current.
Don

Dyno, I'm convinced that time is the critical factor.

Consider this: The electric field (the voltage) travels at the speed of light. Electrons by comparison travel at a snails pace.

Drift velocity of electrons (basically the speed they move under the influence of an electric field) is actually very slow. It depends on the conductor, its dimensions and the applied voltage, but generally a few amps of DC will only see electrons moving a few centimetres a minute. But here's the thing, a good conductor like copper has free electrons, and indeed can be thought of as a tube of touching ball bearings. Push one ball bearing in one end of the tube, and a ball bearing instantly pops out the other end. Hence although the drift velocity of individual electrons is slow, the overall effect of current flow still appears to be pretty instantaneous.

The same however cannot be said about ions in water. The ions are massive in comparison to electrons and can only move at a fraction of the speed of an electron under the influence of an electric field. They also have to negotiate a path between very mobile and active water molecules.

As you say, the water in the cell, may well pull the voltage down, but even if the water is relatively low resistance, this will not happen immediately. As already stated, the OH- ions are massive in comparison to electrons and will react relatively sluggishly. This means that you can in theory pulse 12kv to the cell and as this creates an electric field that travels at the speed of light, if the pulse is short enough, then it will be back off before any current starts to flow within the cell.

But what does this provide you with? Where does this get us?

Well, if the water molecule was pulled apart conveniently into oxygen and hydrogen, then that would be the end of it. Job done!  However what Meyer depicts as the water molecule being pulled apart and electrons flying off everywhere is sheer fantasy.

We know that electric field fluctuations will cause the water molecule to ionise, but this in itself does not create or produce any gas, all we get is ions that will quickly reform into the water molecule if left to their own devices.

All of this then brings me back to my old argument: If you intend to pull the water molecule apart as Meyer depicts, with voltage alone, then why even have the electrodes in actual contact with the water? If the electrodes are fully insulated, with water residing in between, then you can apply all the high voltage pulsing you wish with absolutely no current flow. If voltage alone could really produce gas, then this would be the obvious, logical and simplest way to do it.

Meyer does not do this so clearly it is not all about voltage alone doing the work as he claims. And surely everyone must realise this by now.

This is why I suggested in my thread that an Electric Double Layer is formed at the boundary of the electrodes and the water, and that high voltage, short pulses will allow electrons to breach this boundary and react directly with water molecules and existing ions, WITHOUT any current actually travelling through the cell itself.

Quote from Matt Watts on February 14th, 2014, 08:24 PM

Maybe.  What if the impulses hitting the cell happen so rapidly, the cell hasn't the time to react?  Actually, the water doesn't have time to react, i.e. it accepts the charge as just a charge, not a current flow.

Finding out how fast to run the pulses is what we don't know. That's my whole point of measuring the current. We want to cut off the power just as current starts to flow.
Don

voltage is created by electrons so electrons must travel to he wfc plates, but they must not enter the water, amps are necessary and the vic locks / inhibits the current after the electrons have traveled to the cell.

Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on February 14th, 2014, 08:26 PM

ok

here are some ideas to brainstorm on...

1. We would need a circuit to test the current draw.

once the current reach a certain level lets say 2 amps then it trigers to off possition.
under 2 amps it trigers to on possition.

for the logic sequence above we could use  an amp probe connected to arduino circuit and programed with those parameters...

2. Another way would be to use a relay that is normaly closed and when reaches 2 amp will open the contact and  de-energized  cell circuit.
cell current drops then the coil field colapses reinganging the normaly closed contact. carefull chossing of relay and resister network requred for this to work
properly.

3. Another way would be to use a 2 amp circuit breaker.  The problem is how can it reset itself automaticaly?

4. Another way would be to use an inline current limiting resistor.. this would probably heat up dou. and cause voltage drop.

what do you think?

Your thinking is along the lines of what I propose. But it's going to happen at a much lower current, and a lot faster than a relay or circuit breaker can work at. We're talking milliamps and milliseconds. Microcontroller speeds.
Don