Bussi04, that's where supply vs demand comes in. Without a demand there is no supply. Like most of us experimenters, we don't have the funds needed to fully research this problem. Most of us are just hobbiest. I just wanted to see if I could get it to work. It has been a long road, but I have learned a lot. Even if I never figure it out, I have gained some knowledge along the way. Especially in the electronics world. Been very useful over the years, and have made a lot of friends too.

So it hasn't been for not.
Don

Quote from Farrah Day on February 15th, 2014, 04:31 AM

Dyno, I'm convinced that time is the critical factor.

I agree fully[/quote]Consider this: The electric field (the voltage) travels at the speed of light. Electrons by comparison travel at a snails pace.

Drift velocity of electrons (basically the speed they move under the influence of an electric field) is actually very slow. It depends on the conductor, its dimensions and the applied voltage, but generally a few amps of DC will only see electrons moving a few centimetres a minute. But here's the thing, a good conductor like copper has free electrons, and indeed can be thought of as a tube of touching ball bearings. Push one ball bearing in one end of the tube, and a ball bearing instantly pops out the other end. Hence although the drift velocity of individual electrons is slow, the overall effect of current flow still appears to be pretty instantaneous.[/quote]I follow you[/quote]The same however cannot be said about ions in water. The ions are massive in comparison to electrons and can only move at a fraction of the speed of an electron under the influence of an electric field. They also have to negotiate a path between very mobile and active water molecules.[/quote]Still with you[/quote]As you say, the water in the cell, may well pull the voltage down, but even if the water is relatively low resistance, this will not happen immediately. As already stated, the OH- ions are massive in comparison to electrons and will react relatively sluggishly. This means that you can in theory pulse 12kv to the cell and as this creates an electric field that travels at the speed of light, if the pulse is short enough, then it will be back off before any current starts to flow within the cell.[/quote]I can see that as well happening[/quote]But what does this provide you with? Where does this get us?

Well, if the water molecule was pulled apart conveniently into oxygen and hydrogen, then that would be the end of it. Job done!  However what Meyer depicts as the water molecule being pulled apart and electrons flying off everywhere is sheer fantasy.[/quote]It just may not have been proven yet[/quote]We know that electric field fluctuations will cause the water molecule to ionise, but this in itself does not create or produce any gas, all we get is ions that will quickly reform into the water molecule if left to their own devices.[/quote]Just look at Ed's experiment to see that[/quote]All of this then brings me back to my old argument: If you intend to pull the water molecule apart as Meyer depicts, with voltage alone, then why even have the electrodes in actual contact with the water? If the electrodes are fully insulated, with water residing in between, then you can apply all the high voltage pulsing you wish with absolutely no current flow. If voltage alone could really produce gas, then this would be the obvious, logical and simplest way to do it.

Meyer does not do this so clearly it is not all about voltage alone doing the work as he claims. And surely everyone must realise this by now.[/quote]That was one of my very first ideas. Tried a very simple test to see if it would work. Didn't, but then I never tried any high voltages over 1kv. Just 12 volts.[/quote]This is why I suggested in my thread that an Electric Double Layer is formed at the boundary of the electrodes and the water, and that high voltage, short pulses will allow electrons to breach this boundary and react directly with water molecules and existing ions, WITHOUT any current actually travelling through the cell itself.[/quote]I looked at your project, any thing promising?
Don

Don, do you still have a stock of the SS wire?

I look forward to do some experimtents, but I can't because of the wire (and vic core).

Quote from Dynodon on February 15th, 2014, 07:37 AM

So my point was, could we use a simple circuit to turn off the power pulses when current starts to flow. That way the voltage we apply to the cell, might have a chance to rise at the cell, while restricting current.
Don

This is why I gave links on electrostatic precipitators. Forget their intended use for the time being.  They have the components and concepts you're dealing with.

https://www.neundorfer.com/FileUploads/RichTextboxImages/Flash/powersystemcomp.swf
CLR = "Current Limiting Reactor"
ACR = "Air Core Reactor"

The CLR is on the Primary Side and the ACR is on the secondary side.
Both will limit current in a shorted out situation.  This gives you enough time to turn off the power to prevent damage to the components. (assuming this is controlled by a micro-controller)
THE ACR does NOT need to be an "air core reactor" it could be any type of inductor.  For power plants... they need MASSIVE inductors.  Thus, your air core reactors.


http://www.neundorfer.com/FileUploads/RichTextboxImages/File/Neundorfer_Understanding-Current-Limiting-Reactors.pdf
http://www.neundorfer.com/technical-tips.aspx##CLR

Quote

Purpose of the CLR
1. Provide wave shape smoothing and absorb transients caused by phase fired SCRs.
2. Provide current limiting during transient overload (sparking) conditions.

The precipitator load is capacitive under normal operating conditions and low resistance or shorted load during a spark. The precipitator equivalent load is reflected to the T/R set primary side. Without inductance of the CLR, there would be a significant primary current surge (high di/dt) each half cycle of the line at SCR turn on, as the  T/R primary circuit voltage makes a step change to the line voltage.

https://www.neundorfer.com/knowledge_base/electrostatic_precipitators.aspx

Quote

About Power Supplies and Controls    (Back to top)

The power supply system is designed to provide voltage to the electrical field (or bus section) at the highest possible level. The voltage must be controlled to avoid causing sustained arcing or sparking between the electrodes and the collecting plates.

Click here to view a precipitator power system animated schematic showing representative components.

Electrically, a precipitator is divided into a grid, with electrical fields in series (in the direction of the gas flow) and one or more bus sections in parallel (cross-wise to the gas flow). When electrical fields are in series, the power supply for each field can be adjusted to optimize operation of that field. Likewise, having more than one electrical bus section in parallel allows adjustments to compensate for their differences, so that power input can be optimized. The power supply system has four basic components:
power system components schematic

    Automatic voltage control
    Step-up transformer
    High-voltage rectifier
    Sensing device

    Voltage control
    Automatic voltage control varies the power to the transformer-rectifier in response to signals received from sensors in the precipitator and the transformer-rectifier itself. It monitors the electrical conditions inside the precipitator, protects the internal components from arc-over damages, and protects the transformer-rectifier and other components in the primary circuit.
    The ideal automatic voltage control would produce the maximum collecting efficiency by holding the operating voltage of the precipitator at a level just below the spark-over voltage. However, this level cannot be achieved given that conditions change from moment to moment. Instead, the automatic voltage control increases output from the transformer-rectifier until a spark occurs. Then the control resets to a lower power level, and the power increases again until the next spark occurs.


Automatic Voltage Controllers (for Electrostatic Precipitators)
An electronic device used to control the application of D.C. power into a field of an electrostatic precipitator. (PIC OF MVC4 FACE PANEL AND PIC OF INTERFACE BOARD)

Theory

• Optimize power application – The primary purpose of a voltage controller is to deliver as much useful electrical power to the corresponding electrostatic precipitator field(s) as possible. This is not an easy job; electrical characteristics in the field(s) are constantly changing, which is why a voltage controller is required.

• Spark reaction – When the voltage applied to the electrostatic precipitator field is too high for the conditions at the time, a spark over (or corona discharge) will occur. Detrimentally high amounts of current can occur during a spark over if not properly controlled, which could damage the fields. A voltage controller will monitor the primary and secondary voltage and current of the circuit, and detect a spark over condition. Once detected, the power applied to the field will be immediately cut off or reduced, which will stop the spark. After a short amount of time the power will be ramped back up, and the process will start over.

• Protect system components by adhering to component limitations – The Transformer Rectifier set (TR set) can be damaged by excessive amounts of current or voltage flowing through it. Each TR set has voltage and current limits established by the manufacturer, which are labeled on an attached nameplate (PIC OF A NAMEPLATE). These nameplate limit values (typically primary and secondary current, and voltage) are programmed into the voltage controller. Through metering circuits, the voltage controller will monitor these values, and ensure these limits are not exceeded.

• Tripping – When a condition occurs that the voltage controller cannot control, often times the voltage controller will trip. A trip means the voltage controller (by way of the contactor) will shut off the individual precipitator power circuit. A short inside the electrostatic precipitator field caused by a fallen discharge electrode (wire), or a shorted out Silicone Controlled Rectifier are examples of conditions that a voltage controller cannot control. (PIC OF CLOSE-UP OF TRIP LIGHT ON MVC4 FACE PANEL)

Operation

To maximize electrostatic precipitator efficiency a voltage controller usually attempts to increase the electrical power delivered to the field. However in some conditions a voltage controller must just maintain power at a constant level. Increased electrical power into the electrostatic precipitator directly correlates with better precipitator performance, but there is a limit. If too much voltages is applied for a given condition (as mentioned in the spark reaction section), a spark over will occur. During a spark over precipitator performance in that field will drop to zero, rendering that field temporarily ineffective.

To overcome the crippling effect that spark over has to increasing the electrical power in the precipitator field, spark response algorithms have been developed that will interrupt power upon detection of a spark, then ramp power back up to a high level. These response algorithms can greatly influence overall precipitator performance. 

    Transformer-Rectifiers
    The transformer-rectifier rating should be matched to the load imposed by the electrical field or bus section. The power supply will perform best when the transformer-rectifiers operate at 70 - 90% of the rated capacity, without excessive sparking. This reduces the maximum continuous-load voltage and corona power inputs. Practical operating voltages for transformer-rectifiers depend on:
        Collecting plate spacing
        Gas and dust conditions
        Collecting plate and discharge electrode geometry
    At secondary current levels over 1500 mA, internal impedance of a transformer-rectifier is low, which makes stable automatic voltage control more difficult to achieve. The design of the transformer-rectifier should call for the highest possible impedance that is commensurate with the application and performance requirements. Often, this limits the size of the electrical field or bus section.
    It is general practice to add additional impedance in the form of a current-limiting reactor in the primary circuit. This reactor will limit the primary current during arcing and also improve the wave shape of the voltage/current fed into the transformer-rectifier.
    Corona current density
    Corona current density should be in the range of 10 - 100 mA/1000 ft2 of plate area. (Calculate this using secondary current divided by collecting area of the electrical field or bus section.) The actual level depends upon:
        Location of electrical field or bus section to be energized
        Collecting plate area
        Gas and dust conditions
        Collecting electrode and discharge wire geometry

Quote from Alan on February 15th, 2014, 07:42 AM

voltage is created by electrons so electrons must travel to he wfc plates, but they must not enter the water, amps are necessary and the vic locks / inhibits the current after the electrons have traveled to the cell.

No, this is not necessarily correct.

Voltage is an electric field that travels at the speed of light, and electron is a particle and has mass so cannot possibly travel that fast.

But by way of highlighting this, consider that in an inductor, the voltage leads the current by 90 degrees!

Quote

Quote

We know that electric field fluctuations will cause the water molecule to ionise, but this in itself does not create or produce any gas, all we get is ions that will quickly reform into the water molecule if left to their own devices.

Just look at Ed's experiment to see that

Which Ed's experiment... the one where he ups the voltage across his cells to 1000V?  Seen that, but he still has a current flowing, around 1/2 amp at 1000v. And the gas being produced would appear to be about right for 1/2 amp. So to me the voltage is still playing no part whatsoever. I won't be impressed until he has got gas evolving with absolutely no current flow! But I am hard to please ;)

PS. Dyno, you need to lose the / from the start of the quotes.

Quote from Farrah Day on February 15th, 2014, 11:40 AM

No, this is not necessarily correct.

Voltage is an electric field that travels at the speed of light, and electron is a particle and has mass so cannot possibly travel that fast.

But by way of highlighting this, consider that in an inductor, the voltage leads the current by 90 degrees!

It's been a while :) need a refresh

what forms a voltage field? I was taught it is an accumulation of charge carriers.

wasnt it the voltage OVER the inductor which leads the current, the current through the inductor raises the voltage on the output of the inductor until it's the same as the input, and 0v is measured over it and current through it is max (90 degrees later).

for voltage to reach the wfc through the choke, current must go through the choke first to form the voltage on its output.

cold plasma with ultrasonic formed water droplets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iN3hkpj9M8
Haven't been able to find much info on using cold plasma with water mist from ultrasonic fogger,
but in this video when the plasma is turned on the fog seems to disappear, this would be an interesting experiment to do on a narrow tube say 5 to 10mm. Add a neodymium ring magnet to polarise the water molecules pre plasma, maybe a red and ultraviolet laser in the mix.
Does anyone know if these cold plasma generators produce dc or ac on the output?

Yes, I should make this more clear.

I should say that voltage and electric field are related, but not the same thing. Voltage is a measure of the electrical potential created by the accumulation of charges and is a scalar quantity in that it only has magnitude, the electric field is the force created by charged particles and is a vector quantity because it has magnitude and direction.

Charged particles create an electric field that propagates at the speed of light, so a battery or a charged capacitor for example already has an electric field set up.

So connect either of these to say a simple circuit consisting of a light bulb and the electric field will propagate through this circuit at the speed of light. A tiny fraction of time before current starts flowing.

Quote from Alan on February 15th, 2014, 08:32 AM

Don, do you still have a stock of the SS wire?

I look forward to do some experimtents, but I can't because of the wire (and vic core).

I only have enough for myself if I ever need to build the big coil.
Don

post the reliable source for getting wires please ss 430 r etc

post the performance spec of coil once wound

Dan