This thread is for the people get a moped / scooter running on water?

i will be trying this some time as i have an old scooter that i can test with. please post any other info on this subject here.

if you find others working on this please send them here or post there work in this thread.

thanks!

~Russ

Quote from Celina on October 11th, 2011, 08:14 AM

Hello Everyone,

 name is Celina and I am currently 24 years old. I am about to graduate with a Bachelors in Fine Arts and hope to go back to school to study Nutrition. I believe that the key to being healthy is to eat a plant base diet, so I am going to study more to back this theory up.

I, along with another friend, want to get a moped running on water. I saw some videos on the web where people show their final product that turns water into hho, but so far i have not found a guide will help me do this. My goal is to learn this so that i can pass down the knowledge to others.

Do any of you have any suggestions on  how to make this possible?

read this patent:

~Russ

When I get in from work ill get all the info I've got up here. I also trained as a motorcycle engineer many years ago.
B

This guys got a series of vid where he trys to run a scooter on HHO.

https://www.youtube.com/user/jakerwall#p/u/43/guayuHdqMRk

Here he is guessing it would take 10 litres per min to drive the scooter.

http://hho2u.hubpages.com/hub/hhorunsalone

Someone else claims to have seriously boosted the output of his scooters magneto by fitting neo's inside the flywheel.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=1420.0

Read that patent Russ. Interesting stuff, very meyers-ish. Like the idea of using an inductive pickup on the sparkplug lead to trigger the hho valve. Thinking about using an intercooler off a turbo engine for a heat exchanger.

That volume of air going thru the engine you were thinking about should be cylinder volume x rpm.
The air/fuel ratio is about 14 or 15 to 1 by mass for gasoline when the engine is warm.
If you want to get a comparison between petrol and hho, you might have to think in terms of energy released when the bonds in the hydrocarbons break and compare with energy released when hho burns.
Im sure i read somewhere once that 1% - 2% of the cylinder volume of hho theoretically should do it. Could be wrong about that.
I think that the non combustible gas will help the hho deliver more of itsenergy over the whole downward power stroke of the piston as opposed to a quick flash near top dead centre.

i got a couple of spare hours for some experimentation today. So i decided to try a heat exchanger on the exhaust of the moped as described in the patent russ posted.

[attachment=371]

Heres the heat ex. , the size of the part with the capilaries is 6 inch x 5 inch, its a radiator off another type of moped. can blow thru it pretty easy, doesnt seem to restrict the gas flow and the engines revs just the same as it it wernt there.

First i started the ped up and let it warm for a few minutes... still running on its normal fuel, no hho involved yet, just wanted to see how much of a temperature drop id get really and how much water condenses out.

I got an aquarium thermometer and zip tied its probe to the end of the exhaust in the middle of the gas stream. The temp settled at about 55 degrees C with the engine at idle.

[attachment=373]

Then got the radiator and a bit of tube and some hose clips and measure the gas temp comming out of the heat ex.

[attachment=372]

Managed a drop of 20 degrees 55 down to 35 and sure enough water started to spit out the back of the heat ex.

[attachment=374]

I ran out of daylight  but ill try the same test with a fan on the heat ex to check for improvements with airflow, there wasnt really much wind about either while i did the test and it didnt take long for the heat ex to get hot. After ive tried the fan ill try and rig the heat ex to the moped with two aquarium probes (one before the heat ex and one after) and see what kind of before and after temps i get while riding the thing, my goal is to drop the temp of the gases as close to ambient as possible and condense out as much water as possible too. Shall probly make some kind of cooling fins on the down pipe between the manifold and silencer either by welding strips to the exhaust or by strapping some copper pipe round it with the open ends facing forwards to catch the airflow.

Quote from phil on October 21st, 2011, 10:16 AM

i got a couple of spare hours for some experimentation today. So i decided to try a heat exchanger on the exhaust of the moped as described in the patent russ posted.



Heres the heat ex. , the size of the part with the capilaries is 6 inch x 5 inch, its a radiator off another type of moped. can blow thru it pretty easy, doesnt seem to restrict the gas flow and the engines revs just the same as it it wernt there.

First i started the ped up and let it warm for a few minutes... still running on its normal fuel, no hho involved yet, just wanted to see how much of a temperature drop id get really and how much water condenses out.

I got an aquarium thermometer and zip tied its probe to the end of the exhaust in the middle of the gas stream. The temp settled at about 55 degrees C with the engine at idle.



Then got the radiator and a bit of tube and some hose clips and measure the gas temp comming out of the heat ex.



Managed a drop of 20 degrees 55 down to 35 and sure enough water started to spit out the back of the heat ex.



I ran out of daylight  but ill try the same test with a fan on the heat ex to check for improvements with airflow, there wasnt really much wind about either while i did the test and it didnt take long for the heat ex to get hot. After ive tried the fan ill try and rig the heat ex to the moped with two aquarium probes (one before the heat ex and one after) and see what kind of before and after temps i get while riding the thing, my goal is to drop the temp of the gases as close to ambient as possible and condense out as much water as possible too. Shall probly make some kind of cooling fins on the down pipe between the manifold and silencer either by welding strips to the exhaust or by strapping some copper pipe round it with the open ends facing forwards to catch the airflow.

Cool Stuff:cool:  You might need a sensor rated for  much higher temps when you run the throttle hard enough to power the scooter.  They do make a pyrometer for automotive use, but they get pricey.   I know they make cooking style thermometer probes for lead casting that will go up to 1000 F  for about $40.  Those are all mechanical / analog.


Nate

Quote from phil on October 21st, 2011, 10:16 AM

i got a couple of spare hours for some experimentation today. So i decided to try a heat exchanger on the exhaust of the moped as described in the patent russ posted.



Heres the heat ex. , the size of the part with the capilaries is 6 inch x 5 inch, its a radiator off another type of moped. can blow thru it pretty easy, doesnt seem to restrict the gas flow and the engines revs just the same as it it wernt there.

First i started the ped up and let it warm for a few minutes... still running on its normal fuel, no hho involved yet, just wanted to see how much of a temperature drop id get really and how much water condenses out.

I got an aquarium thermometer and zip tied its probe to the end of the exhaust in the middle of the gas stream. The temp settled at about 55 degrees C with the engine at idle.



Then got the radiator and a bit of tube and some hose clips and measure the gas temp comming out of the heat ex.



Managed a drop of 20 degrees 55 down to 35 and sure enough water started to spit out the back of the heat ex.



I ran out of daylight  but ill try the same test with a fan on the heat ex to check for improvements with airflow, there wasnt really much wind about either while i did the test and it didnt take long for the heat ex to get hot. After ive tried the fan ill try and rig the heat ex to the moped with two aquarium probes (one before the heat ex and one after) and see what kind of before and after temps i get while riding the thing, my goal is to drop the temp of the gases as close to ambient as possible and condense out as much water as possible too. Shall probly make some kind of cooling fins on the down pipe between the manifold and silencer either by welding strips to the exhaust or by strapping some copper pipe round it with the open ends facing forwards to catch the airflow.

Nice Phill!

I plan on starting some burn rate testes some time but i got to build the test equipment! some Resources have been acquired... or at least enough to get there... :)  ~Russ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion

http://physics.weber.edu/schroeder/eee/chapter4.pdf

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae650.cfm

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/B/BondEnergy.html

heres a bit of info and a few calculations that might be useful. I noticed also that on the patent the assignee was nissan.

[attachment=377]

got the rad mounted today, and ive been and got some more tube to connect it up also got a multimeter that also does lux, dB, humidity and best of all temp up to 1300C with a probe, bargain at £25 so yeah about 40 dollar. Ill try n finish the set-up tomorrow and if i get a chance take it for a rip to see what temp difference i get.
If its too hot ive got a couple of backup plans, either keep adding radiators or

[attachment=375]

Build a water jacket to surround as much of this part of the exhaust as i can, probly just the straight bit, and water cool that separatly with its own rad and a pump to get rid of the waste heat.

Dont much like the idea of waste so i started with some other crazy ideas that may or may not be possible, just thoughts at the min and guesswork.

Use the exhaust heat to power a steam turbine and generate electricity to power the lights or charge the battery?
 (anyone know anything about thermo-voltaic cells? convert heat to electricity?)

Fit a turbo and use the cold side of the turbo to force air thru and cool the heat ex?( and make a nice whoooooshing sound)

Take a twin cylinder engine, run one cyl on hho and use the waste heat to drive the second cyl as a steam engine?

Like i said just thoughts just looking to do something useful with the heat that im trying to remove from the exhaust system.


Then i got the question of timing, this is the flywheel i got on my engine.

[attachment=376]

Its got 2 timing lugs that activate the pick up, 1 is at 26 degrees BTDC and the other is a TDC mark. The spark plug fires twice each revolution of the crank and with the waste spark (or should i say sparkS) that plug will fire 4 times per cycle. 2 on the firing stroke and 2 on the top of the exhaust stroke. (it'dd be nice to send that waste spark thru a little single cell just to try and snatch a little bit more hho production) really i want to be left with 1 spark on the power stroke.

My gut says that im gonna have to file off the 26 BTDC lug and fire at TDC only when hho is involved. I know we are adjusting the burn rate in the system, but how easy is that burn going to start, i may need the 26 BTDC if its goin to burn like gasoline or not if its going to ignite easy like hho but burn slower after ignition. Hopefully the spare engine i got is the same flywheel and i can try both.

Quote from phil on October 22nd, 2011, 12:20 PM

(anyone know anything about thermo-voltaic cells? convert heat to electricity?)

The Peltier effect generates electricity when heat is on one side and cold is on the other side of the device.  You still would need a heat sink on one side to make it work.  You can find them in those 12 volt coolers.  :-)  I bought a fan that sits on a wood stove that is powered by the heat in the base which uses a peltier.  They do burn up if they get too hot.

You could look into water or water/methenol (cheep washer fluid) mist injection like they used to cool EGT on turbo diesels.  It needs to be well controlled and regulated so you don't water lock the engine.  One of those pond foggers might work for an engine that small.

Nate

[attachment=379]

[attachment=381]

Didnt get a chance to run it today, but did get the fan on it. Heres the temps,

[attachment=382]

Even flat out that fans not very strong and the air tends to blow off in all directions instead of at the rad. Im gonna have to drive it but that involves putting it in the van and taking it to a field. But i think the cooling effetcs going to be much better.

Getting a lot of condensation in the pipe that goes up from the exhaust to the top of the radiator, if it was copper or aluminium instead of rubber and had a trap at the bottom to catch the water it'd be better.

The copper pipes tied round the exhaust dropped the idle temp by 1 degree at the exhaust. Hopefully be more effective when moving.

So far i can see the heat being manageable by adding another rad if needed but the problem is water, ill have to look for a good water/steam trap design.

Quote from phil on October 23rd, 2011, 12:37 PM

Didnt get a chance to run it today, but did get the fan on it. Heres the temps,



Even flat out that fans not very strong and the air tends to blow off in all directions instead of at the rad. Im gonna have to drive it but that involves putting it in the van and taking it to a field. But i think the cooling effetcs going to be much better.

Getting a lot of condensation in the pipe that goes up from the exhaust to the top of the radiator, if it was copper or aluminium instead of rubber and had a trap at the bottom to catch the water it'd be better.

The copper pipes tied round the exhaust dropped the idle temp by 1 degree at the exhaust. Hopefully be more effective when moving.

So far i can see the heat being manageable by adding another rad if needed but the problem is water, ill have to look for a good water/steam trap design.

interesting stuff going on there Phil.

those are good links also! thanks for that!

looking for more progress!

~Russ

Think im going to get a piece of copper pipe and make a set of jaws with a hole in that i can put in the vice and press this kind of shape into it

[attachment=390]

The allhin condenser, the wobbly wall increases surface area and encourages drips to form on the walls and run down.

Then run the wobbly copper pipe from the exhaust to the radiator. Fit a trap at the bottom.
 Im thinking at a later date I can fit an outlet at the lowest point with a solenoid valve operated by a water level sensor in the body of the trap and use the pressure in the exhaust system to push the water somewhere either to recycle as fuel or dump it on the front pipe to cool the exhaust. Saves having to operate a pump.
 

well i havnt made a wobbly copper tube but ive change the plastic pipe for copper.

[attachment=402]

Heres the temps for copper condenser with no fan 79 - 36.2 = 42.8 drop

[attachment=403]

And heres the copper condenser with that same fan i had before on it. 68 - 14.8 = 53.2 drop

[attachment=404]

The starting temps at the exhaust were higher today because id been revving the engine to warm it up as i was limited on time, but left it a while to stabilize before i took the readings. I know its still all at idle speeds but i think the cooling effects going to be much beter in motion as that fan is pretty crappy. Still getting a lot of water thru and not much is condensing in the jar i got at the bottom of the run of copper. Ill be taking it up the fields tommorw to see what happens then.

Scooter got its first outing at the RWGResearch UK test facility (sounds more exciting than 'a farm track near where i grew up' doesnt it, ha ha)

The cables on the temp probes arent very long so the meters had to be zip tied down on the foot plate and i just had to glance down at different thottle openings to get readings. Sorry no pics it was a bit of a crazy ride and nearly ended up down the ditch a few times, but i did get a few readings before the bottom pvc tube melted and things started to fall off.

At about half throttle exhaust temp was 120-130 degrees C and dropped to 25-35 at the outlet of the heat ex.

Round about full speed the exhaust temp was 180-190 degrees and dropped to about 40 ish.

The first condenser bottle fell off after the first run due to the solder joint melting and the bumpy terrain, going to use compression fittings from now on.

Overall i was happy with the test 100 to 140 degree drop while moving. Now just gotta build a more solid system that doesnt fall apart when it gets hot, also will probly ditch the silencer in favour of a finned cooling device.

Quote from phil on October 29th, 2011, 08:52 AM

Scooter got its first outing at the RWGResearch UK test facility (sounds more exciting than 'a farm track near where i grew up' doesnt it, ha ha)

The cables on the temp probes arent very long so the meters had to be zip tied down on the foot plate and i just had to glance down at different thottle openings to get readings. Sorry no pics it was a bit of a crazy ride and nearly ended up down the ditch a few times, but i did get a few readings before the bottom pvc tube melted and things started to fall off.

At about half throttle exhaust temp was 120-130 degrees C and dropped to 25-35 at the outlet of the heat ex.

Round about full speed the exhaust temp was 180-190 degrees and dropped to about 40 ish.

The first condenser bottle fell off after the first run due to the solder joint melting and the bumpy terrain, going to use compression fittings from now on.

Overall i was happy with the test 100 to 140 degree drop while moving. Now just gotta build a more solid system that doesnt fall apart when it gets hot, also will probly ditch the silencer in favour of a finned cooling device.

hahahahahaha sounds fun!!!  "RWGResearch UK test facility" hahahaha

Quote from Rwg42985 on October 29th, 2011, 09:13 AM

hahahahahaha sounds fun!!!  "RWGResearch UK test facility" hahahaha

Yep its a little place out in the middle of nowhere called 'AREA 52'

I was working with a mate today who does air conditioning, ive explained my set up and he was quite impressed with the temp drop i got. But i managed to pick his brains for possible improvements and he said hes going to sort me out some traps/driers etc basically have a root round in his van and help myself.

Got me thinking of an aircon type system anyway. The engine as the compressor, then condense and then dry and return. Ive started on a copper pipe version with compression fittings and a bit more know how.

Quote from phil on October 31st, 2011, 04:10 PM

Quote from Rwg42985 on October 29th, 2011, 09:13 AM

hahahahahaha sounds fun!!!  "RWGResearch UK test facility" hahahaha

Yep its a little place out in the middle of nowhere called 'AREA 52'

I was working with a mate today who does air conditioning, ive explained my set up and he was quite impressed with the temp drop i got. But i managed to pick his brains for possible improvements and he said hes going to sort me out some traps/driers etc basically have a root round in his van and help myself.

Got me thinking of an aircon type system anyway. The engine as the compressor, then condense and then dry and return. Ive started on a copper pipe version with compression fittings and a bit more know how.

lol cool deal! keep it up! ~russ

Quick update on the scooter.

Ive got another radiator now so the plumbing can continue as soon as i get home before dark one day.

And ive rewound the  2nd engine stator from single to 3 phase and the flywheels got 16 N42's going in it (25x10x5 mm , 5.5kg pull each), slow business as i can only glue in one magnet at a time and i got 16 to do. Then tests can continue...

Quote from phil on November 23rd, 2011, 02:33 PM

Quick update on the scooter.

Ive got another radiator now so the plumbing can continue as soon as i get home before dark one day.

And ive rewound the  2nd engine stator from single to 3 phase and the flywheels got 16 N42's going in it (25x10x5 mm , 5.5kg pull each), slow business as i can only glue in one magnet at a time and i got 16 to do. Then tests can continue...

hahahaha so one a day??? lol thanks a months worth! that sucks!

why one at a time?

couldn't you stick them all to a steel plate in then add glue and the rotor? cover the steal with wax paper or something.

thanks for the update!

~Russ

Had to do 1 at a time coz I was sqauring each magnet off the last one fitted, the fly wheel is only 100mm diameter and with the Central hub there's not a lot of space to get my fingers and a magnet covered in glue inside. Should have it done by the weekend . Ill get some pics up soon

[attachment=519]

Heres the flywheel and stator, one more magnet to go in there and ill chuck it in the lathe and see how it performs compared to the standard one.[attachment=520]

Heres the flywheel and stator with one more magnet left to fit in there.

When its done ill chuck it in the lathe and see how it performs compared to the standard flywheel and stator.

Ive had a quick go at whipping the carb off the scooter and tipping some HHO in off a brute force cell that does about 1 litre per min. No running, got a couple of firings but mainly backfires. LOUD backfires! Thankyou Justin for the flashback arrestors! They work a treat. Going to start making an adjustable timing rig for the spare engine as i think thats half the problem, maybe not enough gas flow? I might try running it from a baloon of HHO for starters.

Quote from phil on March 2nd, 2012, 02:48 PM

Ive had a quick go at whipping the carb off the scooter and tipping some HHO in off a brute force cell that does about 1 litre per min. No running, got a couple of firings but mainly backfires. LOUD backfires! Thankyou Justin for the flashback arrestors! They work a treat. Going to start making an adjustable timing rig for the spare engine as i think thats half the problem, maybe not enough gas flow? I might try running it from a baloon of HHO for starters.

the arrester will slow the HHO from the balloon... i just did this this weekend... lets just say the dust was falling from places i had never seen after it exploded from the back fire... lol you are having the same prob as i... lol  WERE EAR PLUGS!!!!

i will highlight that clip on j.tv this week and post it in the gen set thread... but i did get the gen set to run on H from the bottle. it was scary... lol fire out the carb in a 12" fire ball till i had shut off the gas... lol fun times!

~Russ