Hi all. My name is Matt, i live in Sydney Australia.
For the last 5 weeks ive been studying hho online and ive become very interested in it. I now want to start doing my own research on it, i have a few 'different' ideas i want to try out. 5 weeks ago i knew zero about hho but now i know a little bit, enough to allow me to start making some cells and playing around abit. Thus i have called myself AHL, ( Australian Hydrogen Laboratories ). I know, big name for a little know nothing guy, but i plan on learning and we got to start somewhere.
I been to a few forums, but never posted or joined cause i didnt really like them much. What i like about this place is its open source. To me, i want to share all i learn with not just you guys but the whole world. My aim is the same as you guys, not to profit from, but to distribute hydrogen technology to the world and get it out there, bypassing the powers that be that would try to prevent us doing so.

My question is this. I read somewhere that hho that is produced with potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide has a different structure to hydrogen made without these electrolytes. Is this true? and if so how does this affect the performance of the hho in a combustion engine? Regards. Matt.

Edit: Sorry, according to the rules i need to share. My plan is to first run a 125cc engine on hho. I know many have done it but i need to try for myself b4 i progress to the next step. Also, i will probably suck out more info from you guys than i can give back, but i do hope to give back as soon as i can. :)

Quote from AHL on July 9th, 2013, 11:50 PM

Hi all. My name is Matt, i live in Sydney Australia.
For the last 5 weeks ive been studying hho online and ive become very interested in it. I now want to start doing my own research on it, i have a few 'different' ideas i want to try out. 5 weeks ago i knew zero about hho but now i know a little bit, enough to allow me to start making some cells and playing around abit. Thus i have called myself AHL, ( Australian Hydrogen Laboratories ). I know, big name for a little know nothing guy, but i plan on learning and we got to start somewhere.
I been to a few forums, but never posted or joined cause i didnt really like them much. What i like about this place is its open source. To me, i want to share all i learn with not just you guys but the whole world. My aim is the same as you guys, not to profit from, but to distribute hydrogen technology to the world and get it out there, bypassing the powers that be that would try to prevent us doing so.

My question is this. I read somewhere that hho that is produced with potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide has a different structure to hydrogen made without these electrolytes. Is this true? and if so how does this affect the performance of the hho in a combustion engine? Regards. Matt.

Edit: Sorry, according to the rules i need to share. My plan is to first run a 125cc engine on hho. I know many have done it but i need to try for myself b4 i progress to the next step. Also, i will probably suck out more info from you guys than i can give back, but i do hope to give back as soon as i can. :)

Hi Matt, welcome to the forum, good to have you here

About the share bit:
As you really don't have anything to share yet, in terms of an actual cell including electronics, etc etc, then there's no need for you to, such as in this case, share that it will be a 125cc motor you'll be trying out first of all, we're not that picky

I myself am working on a cell to run an old Honda motor, but I'll post all the details only after I've managed to get it up and running, if not sooner depending on how well or not-so-well things fare with regards to succes/failure/disaster etc.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=562

As for your question, I really don't know what to say about that.
The only thing I've noticed is that the color of the flame seems to be yellowish from the electrolyte-produced gasses as opposed to more either colorless or blueish in the non-electrolyte gasses.

Good luck

Awesome Lynx. Well its great your trying what i am trying.  My idea is to try and power a dry cell with about 240v and 25 amps. I think thats overkill for a 125cc but i want to eventually work up to a 13 hp 6.5kva Honda Generator. (In Australia, everything is 240 volt. So no issues here getting that power, even from a wall socket. God bless your project too Lynx. :)

Quote

As for your question, I really don't know what to say about that.
The only thing I've noticed is that the color of the flame seems to be yellowish from the electrolyte-produced gasses as opposed to more either colorless or blueish in the non-electrolyte gasses.

Good luck

Also linx, with my Oxy acetylene welder, if i turn on just the acet and no oxy then the flame burns yellow with alot of carbon. As is slowly introduce the oxy the flame turns to blue. So its interesting tap water hho is blue and koh flame is yellow. Maybe the quality of the oxygen is compromised as a result of the electrolyte. Just my thoughts.

Thanks mate!
I've found it very difficult to get the motor to ignite using HHO so I'm actually out to use some form of membrane between the electrode plates, or maybe even use quite a different setup, just in order to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen and only feed hydrogen to the motor.
Anyway, that's what I'm hoping will get the engine to ignite more easily, to only feed it with H as opposed to HHO, but only time will tell

Quote from Lynx on July 10th, 2013, 03:35 AM

Thanks mate!
I've found it very difficult to get the motor to ignite using HHO so I'm actually out to use some form of membrane between the electrode plates, or maybe even use quite a different setup, just in order to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen and only feed hydrogen to the motor.
Anyway, that's what I'm hoping will get the engine to ignite more easily, to only feed it with H as opposed to HHO, but only time will tell

Yes, ive been thinking along those lines as well. My theory is, if you separate the gasses this will allow better control over the rpm. My theory is, if you use a solenoid activated by the flywheel and magnets then you can inject (using a tube) the H into the cylinder head (above the inlet valve) and it will always be a constant, (as in volume). Then redirect the O to the manifold inlet to mix with air which can be metered for rpm's.  If you meter the H correctly at the right time then this should stop backfiring.  My theory is backfiring is caused by H sitting at the valves waiting to get sucked into the chamber. But H "apparently" likes seeping through small gaps and valves do not seal well at all, even when new. So i suspect this is what causes the backfiring.

Have you tried running the engine on gasoline then switching too hho to see if it runs that way?

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 04:05 AM

Quote from Lynx on July 10th, 2013, 03:35 AM

Thanks mate..............

Yes, ive been thinking along those lines as well. My theory is, if you separate the gasses this will allow better control over the rpm. My theory is, if you use a solenoid activated by the flywheel and magnets then you can inject (using a tube) the H into the cylinder head (above the inlet valve) and it will always be a constant, (as in volume). Then redirect the O to the manifold inlet to mix with air which can be metered for rpm's.  If you meter the H correctly at the right time then this should stop backfiring.  My theory is backfiring is caused by H sitting at the valves waiting to get sucked into the chamber. But H "apparently" likes seeping through small gaps and valves do not seal well at all, even when new. So i suspect this is what causes the backfiring.

Have you tried running the engine on gasoline then switching too hho to see if it runs that way?

I've only tried out using start gas at the same time, but I can't seem to get the motor to continue firing/running on HHO & air alone.
My theory, because that is what it is, is that using HHO demands ONLY using HHO and no air, as HHO probably has the ideal gas mixture as it is so blending it with air "only" makes the mixture more lean, I.E it gets more saturated with oxygen, thus losing it's ideal explosive properties.
Anyway, that's my theory so far, only time will tell how far off I am here

Quote from Lynx on July 10th, 2013, 04:38 AM

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 04:05 AM

Quote from Lynx on July 10th, 2013, 03:35 AM

Thanks mate..............

Yes, ive been thinking along those lines as well. My theory is, if you separate the gasses this will allow better control over the rpm. My theory is, if you use a solenoid activated by the flywheel and magnets then you can inject (using a tube) the H into the cylinder head (above the inlet valve) and it will always be a constant, (as in volume). Then redirect the O to the manifold inlet to mix with air which can be metered for rpm's.  If you meter the H correctly at the right time then this should stop backfiring.  My theory is backfiring is caused by H sitting at the valves waiting to get sucked into the chamber. But H "apparently" likes seeping through small gaps and valves do not seal well at all, even when new. So i suspect this is what causes the backfiring.

Have you tried running the engine on gasoline then switching too hho to see if it runs that way?

I've only tried out using start gas at the same time, but I can't seem to get the motor to continue firing/running on HHO & air alone.
My theory, because that is what it is, is that using HHO demands ONLY using HHO and no air, as HHO probably has the ideal gas mixture as it is so blending it with air "only" makes the mixture more lean, I.E it gets more saturated with oxygen, thus losing it's ideal explosive properties.
Anyway, that's my theory so far, only time will tell how far off I am here

Ok, well have tryed nothing yet so im no expert and dont claim to be but i wonder what would happen if you say place a polyurethane or timber block or plate at the inlet and drill one hole for hho input and another hole for a valve to manually meter the air intake. I wonder if this would work for you? I have seen this style set up a few times on utube and indeed Russ did it this way also. Just my thoughts, just trying to help and anyone is welcome to correct me on my inconsistency's. :)
Edit: Russ used only H, sorry. But ive seen it work this way with HHO.

Fine, thanks mate

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 04:05 AM

My theory is backfiring is caused by H sitting at the valves waiting to get sucked into the chamber. But H "apparently" likes seeping through small gaps and valves do not seal well at all, even when new. So i suspect this is what causes the backfiring.

Backfiring is directly related to valve sealing and valve timing.  This much I have proven without a doubt.  If you up the spring pressure on the valve seats and get them perfectly polished, then adjust your cam; possibly even regrind your cam lobes, you will eliminate the backfiring.  This is tougher for the intake valve because the seat is larger than the exhaust valve.  Get you a good metal polish, lubricate the valve stem and spin the valve in the cylinder head with a drill motor--takes hours to do until it's right.  The valve seat both on the value and the cylinder head should be perfectly shinny.  Then pressure test overnight to see if it holds.  What will tick you off is after running the engine a bit on HHO, you will get small pits of rust on the seat because of the water--then you'll have to start all over again.

You also need to eliminate the waste spark--Lynx knows this; surprised he didn't mention it.  ;)

I first set out to do the same as you, only I used a much bigger 305cc engine.  To my surprise it takes a huge volume of HHO to run such a large motor--on the order of 30 LpM.  To effectively produce that much HHO brute force takes a lot of juice even if the cell(s) is/are quite efficient.  So much so, you'll start popping circuit breakers.

After my struggle, I started asking around and found out Gary Hendershot (aka Smart Scarecrow) has done a ton of work in this area many years ago.  What he determined is that under best conditions, you will never get back more than 80% electrical power from an engine/alternator running HHO, than it takes to produce the HHO.  Just too many losses in the engine, generator and HHO cell to even approach unity conversion.

Now I've heard a lot of talk about adding air to the HHO to reduce its burn speed and optimize engine performance but even doing so, 80% power conversion efficiency is pretty much the limit anyone has achieved.

Something you may find interesting is the burn rate of HHO.  You can take a 50 foot hose, fill it with HHO and it will act like a high-speed fuse.  No way that you can light one end and pinch the other end off before the flame gets there.  Extremely fast burn rate.  It burns so fast that finding good effective flashback suppressors is a bit tricky and making your own is even tougher.  You'll need them regardless if you plan on playing with HHO though.  The stuff is just too dangerous with any volume over about a half liter.

If you are curious, here's my project page:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=883

HTH,

D1

Quote from Dog-One on July 10th, 2013, 05:13 AM

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 04:05 AM

My theory is backfiring is caused by H sitting at the valves waiting to get sucked into the chamber. But H "apparently" likes seeping through small gaps and valves do not seal well at all, even when new. So i suspect this is what causes the backfiring.

Backfiring is directly related to valve sealing and valve timing.  This much I have proven without a doubt.  If you up the spring pressure on the valve seats and get them perfectly polished, then adjust your cam; possibly even regrind your cam lobes, you will eliminate the backfiring.  This is tougher for the intake valve because the seat is larger than the exhaust valve.  Get you a good metal polish, lubricate the valve stem and spin the valve in the cylinder head with a drill motor--takes hours to do until it's right.  The valve seat both on the value and the cylinder head should be perfectly shinny.  Then pressure test overnight to see if it holds.  What will tick you off is after running the engine a bit on HHO, you will get small pits of rust on the seat because of the water--then you'll have to start all over again.

You also need to eliminate the waste spark--Lynx knows this; surprised he didn't mention it.  ;)

I first set out to do the same as you, only I used a much bigger 305cc engine.  To my surprise it takes a huge volume of HHO to run such a large motor--on the order of 30 LpM.  To effectively produce that much HHO brute force takes a lot of juice even if the cell(s) is/are quite efficient.  So much so, you'll start popping circuit breakers.

After my struggle, I started asking around and found out Gary Hendershot (aka Smart Scarecrow) has done a ton of work in this area many years ago.  What he determined is that under best conditions, you will never get back more than 80% electrical power from an engine/alternator running HHO, than it takes to produce the HHO.  Just too many losses in the engine, generator and HHO cell to even approach unity conversion.

Now I've heard a lot of talk about adding air to the HHO to reduce its burn speed and optimize engine performance but even doing so, 80% power conversion efficiency is pretty much the limit anyone has achieved.

Something you may find interesting is the burn rate of HHO.  You can take a 50 foot hose, fill it with HHO and it will act like a high-speed fuse.  No way that you can light one end and pinch the other end off before the flame gets there.  Extremely fast burn rate.  It burns so fast that finding good effective flashback suppressors is a bit tricky and making your own is even tougher.  You'll need them regardless if you plan on playing with HHO though.  The stuff is just too dangerous with any volume over about a half liter.

If you are curious, here's my project page:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=883

HTH,

D1

Thanks for that info Dog-One. Yes i gathered backfire was from those causes, i didnt think about the rust factor though when reseating valves. So, is it correct to say then that if you inject H or hho into the inlet timed using a solenoid that this will eliminate the issues caused by overlap and leakage and even sparks from ignition after firing? What im saying is, to allow H to only enter the inlet area of the runner in the head "after" the inlet opens and after the exhaust closes but H shuts off before BDC (bottom dead center). Would this method only allow H to be present in the runners on stoke "one", with only air being present at any other time.?
Im unsure what you mean by 80% efficient. It seems you are saying i cannot get the gen to power the engine. If so, ill try and work out a way around that, and if i fail, well i tryed at least. I value your input Dog-One, thanks. Matt:)

Welcome AHL

I have single cylinder and twin cylinder injection kit information and education about adapting ecu's and efi  for motorcycles on my website,

You can feed h2 from pem cell to injection system Right now!

I think you will find this information gripping!!!!!!!!!!

it open source and free info for all

www.securesuplies.biz

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 05:57 AM

Thanks for that info Dog-One. Yes i gathered backfire was from those causes, i didnt think about the rust factor though when reseating valves. So, is it correct to say then that if you inject H or hho into the inlet timed using a solenoid that this will eliminate the issues caused by overlap and leakage and even sparks from ignition after firing? What im saying is, to allow H to only enter the inlet area of the runner in the head "after" the inlet opens and after the exhaust closes but H shuts off before BDC (bottom dead center). Would this method only allow H to be present in the runners on stoke "one", with only air being present at any other time.?

What it boils down to is if you have ANY combustible HHO fuel mix in the intake and the seats are not 100% perfect, your ignition event will also ignite the mixture in the intake manifold/assembly.  Steel seats will pit from the water (exhaust) and start to leak relatively quick.  Titanium or stainless steel might work for the valves/seats, but I haven't tried them.

Injection will just move the problem around since you still have to guarantee they don't leak--we're talking molecular size leaks.  If you want separate H and O, then sure, no sweat, but in doing so, you just made your HHO cell WAY more complicated since you have to separate the gases.

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 05:57 AM

Im unsure what you mean by 80% efficient. It seems you are saying i cannot get the gen to power the engine. If so, ill try and work out a way around that, and if i fail, well i tryed at least. I value your input Dog-One, thanks. Matt:)

What I'm saying is you'll never come close to over-unity.  With the best cell, best engine, best alternator you will not be able to close-loop the system.  Close loop would mean taking the power from the alternator and feeding it back into your HHO cell, the gas from which feeds your engine and turns the alternator.  I got taken for a ride with a video where supposedly some German engineering student did just that.  Trust me, he didn't.  He had some other fuel in his bubbler.  It wasn't pure water, HHO powering the engine.

So if you intend to pour a lot of money into a setup, keep in mind you'll lose at least 20% along the line (electricity to power the cell <--> electricity out of the alternator).  Fifty percent loss is actually pretty easy to do.  Twenty percent loss is a bugger and takes a lot of money and patience to get to.

Now if someone actually figures out the Stan Meyer's secret and can produce HHO with much less power than approximately 140 Watts/Liter/Minute (Faraday constant), then all bets are off and close looping a system like that would be very doable.  I haven't seen it nor have I heard anyone I trust claim they did it.  Guess you would call that my state of the union address.

One final note:  HHO is powerful stuff, but if you calculate or experiment just how much force inside a combustion chamber you actually need to spin the crankshaft, you'll soon learn you need quantity of fuel.  Eight liters per minute of HHO may seem like a lot, but a dinky little carburetor fueled with gasoline can make an enormous volume of fuel mix, on the order of 50 LpM no problem.  For a big V-8 racing engine, 750 cubic feet per minute no problem.  This is what you are up against trying to retrofit petroleum with HHO water gas.  Internal combustion engines are all about volumetric efficiency--to make more power, burn more fuel in a shorter amount of time.  With HHO, you can only make so much of it in a given period of time; with gasoline all you need to do is suck more air through the carburetor.

Quote from Dog-One on July 10th, 2013, 05:13 AM

You also need to eliminate the waste spark--Lynx knows this; surprised he didn't mention it.  ;)

Sorry, my bad
Yeah, let's see now, it's the waste spark elimination, valve advance timing adjustments, spark timing adjustment, perhaps recycle part of the exhaust back to the inlet just to cool things down a bit, it's replacing the spark with a high temperature ditto, it's using the right kind of crankcase oil that which doesn't interact with water and also, IIRC, to have a drainage of the crankcase in the form of a backflame arrestor, just to prevent any backfires in the crankcase from ripping the motor apart.

There, I think that just about covers it.........?

Quote from securesupplies on July 10th, 2013, 09:41 AM

Welcome AHL

I have single cylinder and twin cylinder injection kit information and education about adapting ecu's and efi  for motorcycles on my website,

You can feed h2 from pem cell to injection system Right now!

I think you will find this information gripping!!!!!!!!!!

it open source and free info for all

www.securesuplies.biz

Thanks very much secure supplies. Ill read your page later tonight. link doesnt work u gave me but i found ur web site anyway. I did read the thread Dog-one gave me and i did learnt some very important stuff, so thanks Dog-one and secure supplies. :)

Quote from Dog-One on July 10th, 2013, 11:47 AM

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 05:57 AM

Thanks for that info Dog-One. Yes i gathered backfire was from those causes, i didnt think about the rust factor though when reseating valves. So, is it correct to say then that if you inject H or hho into the inlet timed using a solenoid that this will eliminate the issues caused by overlap and leakage and even sparks from ignition after firing? What im saying is, to allow H to only enter the inlet area of the runner in the head "after" the inlet opens and after the exhaust closes but H shuts off before BDC (bottom dead center). Would this method only allow H to be present in the runners on stoke "one", with only air being present at any other time.?

What it boils down to is if you have ANY combustible HHO fuel mix in the intake and the seats are not 100% perfect, your ignition event will also ignite the mixture in the intake manifold/assembly.  Steel seats will pit from the water (exhaust) and start to leak relatively quick.  Titanium or stainless steel might work for the valves/seats, but I haven't tried them.

Injection will just move the problem around since you still have to guarantee they don't leak--we're talking molecular size leaks.  If you want separate H and O, then sure, no sweat, but in doing so, you just made your HHO cell WAY more complicated since you have to separate the gases.

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 05:57 AM

Im unsure what you mean by 80% efficient. It seems you are saying i cannot get the gen to power the engine. If so, ill try and work out a way around that, and if i fail, well i tryed at least. I value your input Dog-One, thanks. Matt:)

What I'm saying is you'll never come close to over-unity.  With the best cell, best engine, best alternator you will not be able to close-loop the system.  Close loop would mean taking the power from the alternator and feeding it back into your HHO cell, the gas from which feeds your engine and turns the alternator.  I got taken for a ride with a video where supposedly some German engineering student did just that.  Trust me, he didn't.  He had some other fuel in his bubbler.  It wasn't pure water, HHO powering the engine.

So if you intend to pour a lot of money into a setup, keep in mind you'll lose at least 20% along the line (electricity to power the cell <--> electricity out of the alternator).  Fifty percent loss is actually pretty easy to do.  Twenty percent loss is a bugger and takes a lot of money and patience to get to.

Now if someone actually figures out the Stan Meyer's secret and can produce HHO with much less power than approximately 140 Watts/Liter/Minute (Faraday constant), then all bets are off and close looping a system like that would be very doable.  I haven't seen it nor have I heard anyone I trust claim they did it.  Guess you would call that my state of the union address.

One final note:  HHO is powerful stuff, but if you calculate or experiment just how much force inside a combustion chamber you actually need to spin the crankshaft, you'll soon learn you need quantity of fuel.  Eight liters per minute of HHO may seem like a lot, but a dinky little carburetor fueled with gasoline can make an enormous volume of fuel mix, on the order of 50 LpM no problem.  For a big V-8 racing engine, 750 cubic feet per minute no problem.  This is what you are up against trying to retrofit petroleum with HHO water gas.  Internal combustion engines are all about volumetric efficiency--to make more power, burn more fuel in a shorter amount of time.  With HHO, you can only make so much of it in a given period of time; with gasoline all you need to do is suck more air through the carburetor.

Thanks for your input Dog one. I read your thread last night and i learned alot. I think im going in a different direction (or method) than you did though but all with the same result in mind. I have my own theory on how to do it and i have not seen anyone else use or attempt the idea i have to make it work. I have listened to you and you are more than likely correct. However, im stubborn and i will still try it anyway. If i fail then ive have learnt something. As for over unity, i dont think ill need to go over unity to make it happen. If i fail, ill ask you too tell me you told me so lmao :) Im new to this, and im full of enthusiasm lol. Thanks for your input Dog one and God bless you.

Quote from Lynx on July 10th, 2013, 02:08 PM

Quote from Dog-One on July 10th, 2013, 05:13 AM

You also need to eliminate the waste spark--Lynx knows this; surprised he didn't mention it.  ;)

Sorry, my bad
Yeah, let's see now, it's the waste spark elimination, valve advance timing adjustments, spark timing adjustment, perhaps recycle part of the exhaust back to the inlet just to cool things down a bit, it's replacing the spark with a high temperature ditto, it's using the right kind of crankcase oil that which doesn't interact with water and also, IIRC, to have a drainage of the crankcase in the form of a backflame arrestor, just to prevent any backfires in the crankcase from ripping the motor apart.

There, I think that just about covers it.........?

Thanks for that Lynx, much appreciated. Lynx, im especially interested in your project as you are attempting what i am attempting, just that i havent started yet. So i want to help you despite me knowing nothing much. In fact i probably look very silly making suggestions to you who is very experienced. But i want to leaqrn from what you are doing. So i have one more suggestion. Can u make the engine run on hho ising a balloon. You know, fill the balloon with hho and then feed it to the motor. If it works this way and not without the balloon, then do you think that "pressure" could be the issue? Do you think that if you put a regulator on your hho infeed thus supplying pressure would work? I guess you would need to first biuld up "X" amount of hho pressure first before starting the engine. Just trying to help Lynx and im also trying to learn and understand what works and what does not. Thanks for your input, much appreciated. :)

Second question. Does anyone know if the following is true or not? I found this here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFQ8IEu4YVg

Quote. Brown's gas is a far more potent form of HHO, it carries a very high positive electrical charge, and this charge turns the gas into a zero point energy carrier. Brown's gas can travel into, and permeate into porous metals and materials because it is electrically unbalanced and seeks to join other materials which can donate their electrons. The gas is missing electrons, and yet it forms a stable molecule arranged of mono-atomic H and O atoms loosely bound together. If you add electrolyte to the water or use excessive current, you will reduce the production of Brown's gas, and in some cases you will not get any Brown's gas. To get the most Brown's gas, you need high voltage and clean tap water with non-magnetic stainless steel plates. Brown's gas is a zero point energy carrier, because it will rip electrons from the surrounding environment upon ignition. Normal compressed tank hydrogen will not do this, because it is not Brown's gas. So you end up getting far more energy out of this positively charged Brown's gas than standard HHO from chemical based electrolysis or tank hydrogen. Upon ignition the gas explodes violently with a clear, or clear blue flame. The sound produced is ground shaking, and ear shattering, and it is not safe to ignite even the smallest bubbles without hearing protection. This is the same energy produced in the Joe cell or Stanley Meyer setup, although Stanley Meyer should have given credit to Yull Brown who invented Brown's gas. When used in an HHO welder, this is the gas that will cut through tungsten, and melt rocks. If you have true Brown's gas, a tiny amount of gas has huge power.  Unquote.
If anyone knows, please let me know if this is true. Thanks, Matt :)

Do not know if that is a true statement or not.

What I do know is the brute-force HHO dry-cell I have produces a gas with similar, though not exact characteristics.  It uses electrolyte (dilute NaOH) and does pull a fair amount of amperage.  The flame color exiting my torch head can be changed somewhat by the liquid I use in the bubbler which scrubs much of the electrolyte out from the originating gas.  Dilute vinegar seems to work best.  One liter of this gas detonated in a plastic bottle will make a violent explosion and shred the plastic bottle into tiny pieces.

Because of its highly rapid combustion, I suspect it is sub-optimal for use in an internal combustion engine.  I have heard adding Nitrogen to this gas changes/slows its combustion rate to something more optimal though I haven't been able to validate that claim.

Still a fair amount of work to do to prove/disprove what HHO is and how to best utilize it.

Quote from Dog-One on July 11th, 2013, 06:32 AM

Do not know if that is a true statement or not.

What I do know is the brute-force HHO dry-cell I have produces a gas with similar, though not exact characteristics.  It uses electrolyte (dilute NaOH) and does pull a fair amount of amperage.  The flame color exiting my torch head can be changed somewhat by the liquid I use in the bubbler which scrubs much of the electrolyte out from the originating gas.  Dilute vinegar seems to work best.  One liter of this gas detonated in a plastic bottle will make a violent explosion and shred the plastic bottle into tiny pieces.

Because of its highly rapid combustion, I suspect it is sub-optimal for use in an internal combustion engine.  I have heard adding Nitrogen to this gas changes/slows its combustion rate to something more optimal though I haven't been able to validate that claim.

Still a fair amount of work to do to prove/disprove what HHO is and how to best utilize it.

OK, so your saying hho using electrolyte can be cleaned via the bubbler. Thats sounds like its good. So maybe a bubbler full of foam or sponge with vinegar would do the job well.  :)

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 11:08 PM

Thanks for that Lynx, much appreciated. Lynx, im especially interested in your project as you are attempting what i am attempting, just that i havent started yet. So i want to help you despite me knowing nothing much. In fact i probably look very silly making suggestions to you who is very experienced. But i want to leaqrn from what you are doing. So i have one more suggestion. Can u make the engine run on hho ising a balloon. You know, fill the balloon with hho and then feed it to the motor. If it works this way and not without the balloon, then do you think that "pressure" could be the issue? Do you think that if you put a regulator on your hho infeed thus supplying pressure would work? I guess you would need to first biuld up "X" amount of hho pressure first before starting the engine. Just trying to help Lynx and im also trying to learn and understand what works and what does not. Thanks for your input, much appreciated. :)

Been there, tried that, still no ignition whatsoever.
What I'm out to do next is to build a flame arrestor which I will put directly on the carb, just in case.
Then I'm also leaning more and more towards separating the hydrogen from the oxygen and only feed hydrogen & air to the motor, so it will take some time to finish that one, either by completely rebuilding my cell by separating the electrodes using plastic spacers between the plates, thus separating the H2 from the O2, or start out on a completely new cell using for example tubes.
The only purpose of my experimenting with this is to see if I can get a motor to run at all using H2/air and also to see how many adjustments I have to make in order to get it to run efficiently.
So far I haven't made any adjustments at all with regards to valve & ignition timing, oil, crankcase, exhaust recycling etc, I only know of D1 (Dog-One ) who has made some valve/ignition adjustments in order to get the motor to fire at all.

Regardless of what method we choose here to split water to H2 and O2 we will still need to be able to get a motor to run on it somehow, so if for no other reason let's share what we come up with so that we all can have a go at it

Quote from Lynx on July 11th, 2013, 06:50 AM

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 11:08 PM

Thanks for that Lynx, much appreciated. Lynx, im especially interested in your project as you are attempting what i am attempting, just that i havent started yet. So i want to help you despite me knowing nothing much. In fact i probably look very silly making suggestions to you who is very experienced. But i want to leaqrn from what you are doing. So i have one more suggestion. Can u make the engine run on hho ising a balloon. You know, fill the balloon with hho and then feed it to the motor. If it works this way and not without the balloon, then do you think that "pressure" could be the issue? Do you think that if you put a regulator on your hho infeed thus supplying pressure would work? I guess you would need to first biuld up "X" amount of hho pressure first before starting the engine. Just trying to help Lynx and im also trying to learn and understand what works and what does not. Thanks for your input, much appreciated. :)

Been there, tried that, still no ignition whatsoever.
What I'm out to do next is to build a flame arrestor which I will put directly on the carb, just in case.
Then I'm also leaning more and more towards separating the hydrogen from the oxygen and only feed hydrogen & air to the motor, so it will take some time to finish that one, either by completely rebuilding my cell by separating the electrodes using plastic spacers between the plates, thus separating the H2 from the O2, or start out on a completely new cell using for example tubes.
The only purpose of my experimenting with this is to see if I can get a motor to run at all using H2/air and also to see how many adjustments I have to make in order to get it to run efficiently.
So far I haven't made any adjustments at all with regards to valve & ignition timing, oil, crankcase, exhaust recycling etc, I only know of D1 (Dog-One ) who has made some valve/ignition adjustments in order to get the motor to fire at all.

Regardless of what method we choose here to split water to H2 and O2 we will still need to be able to get a motor to run on it somehow, so if for no other reason let's share what we come up with so that we all can have a go at it

I like this thread, good going guy's. I know all of you know that H burns 2 1/2 times faster than gasoline, this is why Stan used non burnable gasses to slow the burn rate of H, such as exhaust gasses from the engine, but this leads me to the question, how would the engine ever start when needing the exhaust gasses. I guess this is where valve timing comes into play. Anyway this is a good thread.:cool::D:P

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2013, 05:11 PM

I like this thread, good going guy's. I know all of you know that H burns 2 1/2 times faster than gasoline, this is why Stan used non burnable gasses to slow the burn rate of H, such as exhaust gasses from the engine, but this leads me to the question, how would the engine ever start when needing the exhaust gasses. I guess this is where valve timing comes into play. Anyway this is a good thread.:cool::D:P

The engine will start if you do it without any load.  The best way to visualize in your mind fast versus slow combustion is imagine smacking the piston with a hammer (fast) compared with pushing the piston with say, compressed air.  If you want to capture every last bit of energy, you need to push the piston hard all throughout its power stroke, from just after TDC, all the way to BDC.  When you just smack the piston hard for some quick instant within the power stroke, you need to do it approximately halfway between TDC and BDC (90 degrees) where you can get the most leverage from the crankshaft.  Even still, you won't get much of the total power released and if the detonation is violent enough, you will actually break engine components.

Exhaust gases...?  Maybe.  I heard Nitrogen as the key ingredient to slowing combustion and there is a fair amount of it in air.  Maybe both is the right answer.  In any case, the longer you can prolong the expansion of the combustion gases, provided you don't go past BDC, the better you can convert the energy into mechanical motion, which is really what you are after.  If you can't slow the burn rate or extend the burn time, then your only other choice is to make the engine run much faster so that it gets to BDC at about the same time the pressure drops off.  If that means running a little Honda engine at 20,000 RPM, then it better be a good one or it will fly apart.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that HHO implodes immediately after it explodes.  So if you time things right, you can delay the opening of the exhaust valve and use the suction created to pull the piston back up.  This is why ignition timing is so critical.  You want ignition to happen in such a way that the pressure drop after the gas burns, begins right at BDC.  This is something you won't get at all with other fuels, but with HHO you can use it if you know about it.

Quote from Dog-One on July 11th, 2013, 05:56 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2013, 05:11 PM

I like this thread, good going guy's. I know all of you know that H burns 2 1/2 times faster than gasoline, this is why Stan used non burnable gasses to slow the burn rate of H, such as exhaust gasses from the engine, but this leads me to the question, how would the engine ever start when needing the exhaust gasses. I guess this is where valve timing comes into play. Anyway this is a good thread.:cool::D:P

The engine will start if you do it without any load.  The best way to visualize in your mind fast versus slow combustion is imagine smacking the piston with a hammer (fast) compared with pushing the piston with say, compressed air.  If you want to capture every last bit of energy, you need to push the piston hard all throughout its power stroke, from just after TDC, all the way to BDC.  When you just smack the piston hard for some quick instant within the power stroke, you need to do it approximately halfway between TDC and BDC (90 degrees) where you can get the most leverage from the crankshaft.  Even still, you won't get much of the total power released and if the detonation is violent enough, you will actually break engine components.

Exhaust gases...?  Maybe.  I heard Nitrogen as the key ingredient to slowing combustion and there is a fair amount of it in air.  Maybe both is the right answer.  In any case, the longer you can prolong the expansion of the combustion gases, provided you don't go past BDC, the better you can convert the energy into mechanical motion, which is really what you are after.  If you can't slow the burn rate or extend the burn time, then your only other choice is to make the engine run much faster so that it gets to BDC at about the same time the pressure drops off.  If that means running a little Honda engine at 20,000 RPM, then it better be a good one or it will fly apart.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that HHO implodes immediately after it explodes.  So if you time things right, you can delay the opening of the exhaust valve and use the suction created to pull the piston back up.  This is why ignition timing is so critical.  You want ignition to happen in such a way that the pressure drop after the gas burns, begins right at BDC.  This is something you won't get at all with other fuels, but with HHO you can use it if you know about it.

Sound strategy, explains much about timing issues, I wonder how HHO would function in a turbine engine? Wouldn't have to slow the burn rate I would think. Art in Vegas is doing this. Haven't  heard from him in a while, wonder how he's coming along.:D Oh well I don't mean to change or hijack the thread.

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2013, 06:59 PM

Sound strategy, explains much about timing issues, I wonder how HHO would function in a turbine engine? Wouldn't have to slow the burn rate I would think. Art in Vegas is doing this. Haven't  heard from him in a while, wonder how he's coming along.:D Oh well I don't mean to change or hijack the thread.

Remember this bad boy:
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=833&pid=10639#pid10639

That's one I'd like to test the crap out of.  Anyone ever hear from Boots?

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2013, 06:59 PM

Quote from Dog-One on July 11th, 2013, 05:56 PM

Quote from Jeff Nading on July 11th, 2013, 05:11 PM

I like this thread, good going guy's. I know all of you know that H burns 2 1/2 times faster than gasoline, this is why Stan used non burnable gasses to slow the burn rate of H, such as exhaust gasses from the engine, but this leads me to the question, how would the engine ever start when needing the exhaust gasses. I guess this is where valve timing comes into play. Anyway this is a good thread.:cool::D:P

The engine will start if you do it without any load.  The best way to visualize in your mind fast versus slow combustion is imagine smacking the piston with a hammer (fast) compared with pushing the piston with say, compressed air.  If you want to capture every last bit of energy, you need to push the piston hard all throughout its power stroke, from just after TDC, all the way to BDC.  When you just smack the piston hard for some quick instant within the power stroke, you need to do it approximately halfway between TDC and BDC (90 degrees) where you can get the most leverage from the crankshaft.  Even still, you won't get much of the total power released and if the detonation is violent enough, you will actually break engine components.

Exhaust gases...?  Maybe.  I heard Nitrogen as the key ingredient to slowing combustion and there is a fair amount of it in air.  Maybe both is the right answer.  In any case, the longer you can prolong the expansion of the combustion gases, provided you don't go past BDC, the better you can convert the energy into mechanical motion, which is really what you are after.  If you can't slow the burn rate or extend the burn time, then your only other choice is to make the engine run much faster so that it gets to BDC at about the same time the pressure drops off.  If that means running a little Honda engine at 20,000 RPM, then it better be a good one or it will fly apart.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that HHO implodes immediately after it explodes.  So if you time things right, you can delay the opening of the exhaust valve and use the suction created to pull the piston back up.  This is why ignition timing is so critical.  You want ignition to happen in such a way that the pressure drop after the gas burns, begins right at BDC.  This is something you won't get at all with other fuels, but with HHO you can use it if you know about it.

Sound strategy, explains much about timing issues, I wonder how HHO would function in a turbine engine? Wouldn't have to slow the burn rate I would think. Art in Vegas is doing this. Haven't  heard from him in a while, wonder how he's coming along.:D Oh well I don't mean to change or hijack the thread.

Feel free to take the thread in any direction. Any comment made could be the comment one other needs to fill in the blanks. :)

Quote from Lynx on July 11th, 2013, 06:50 AM

Quote from AHL on July 10th, 2013, 11:08 PM

Thanks for that Lynx, much appreciated. Lynx, im especially interested in your project as you are attempting what i am attempting, just that i havent started yet. So i want to help you despite me knowing nothing much. In fact i probably look very silly making suggestions to you who is very experienced. But i want to leaqrn from what you are doing. So i have one more suggestion. Can u make the engine run on hho ising a balloon. You know, fill the balloon with hho and then feed it to the motor. If it works this way and not without the balloon, then do you think that "pressure" could be the issue? Do you think that if you put a regulator on your hho infeed thus supplying pressure would work? I guess you would need to first biuld up "X" amount of hho pressure first before starting the engine. Just trying to help Lynx and im also trying to learn and understand what works and what does not. Thanks for your input, much appreciated. :)

Been there, tried that, still no ignition whatsoever.
What I'm out to do next is to build a flame arrestor which I will put directly on the carb, just in case.
Then I'm also leaning more and more towards separating the hydrogen from the oxygen and only feed hydrogen & air to the motor, so it will take some time to finish that one, either by completely rebuilding my cell by separating the electrodes using plastic spacers between the plates, thus separating the H2 from the O2, or start out on a completely new cell using for example tubes.
The only purpose of my experimenting with this is to see if I can get a motor to run at all using H2/air and also to see how many adjustments I have to make in order to get it to run efficiently.
So far I haven't made any adjustments at all with regards to valve & ignition timing, oil, crankcase, exhaust recycling etc, I only know of D1 (Dog-One ) who has made some valve/ignition adjustments in order to get the motor to fire at all.

Regardless of what method we choose here to split water to H2 and O2 we will still need to be able to get a motor to run on it somehow, so if for no other reason let's share what we come up with so that we all can have a go at it

Lynx, i dont understand why your engine wont run when others clearly have, according to utube anyway. Whats your lpm rate? Im confused, do you have a thread on your hho escapades?
After listening to what Dog-one has said, it sounds more and more like gasoline engines are for gasoline and HHo engines are for HHO. Seems an obvious statement lol. Anyway my thoughts are now to try and mod an Honda XR 400 dirt bike engine. These make 35 hp and bucket loads of torque at 6500 rpm and rev to 9000. (It only needs to spin to 3600 for me though, they atr equivalent in bore/stoke size to a honda 6.5 kva gen with a 13 hp engine, just 1 or 2 mills larger) My thoughts are to change out the crank and rods using  Honda xr 250 gear coupled to a XR 600 piston and cylinder and head. This should have the affect od being basically around 400cc yet it will no longer be a "square bore" design. Square bore is for gasoline. With a fast firing rate of hho we need short stroke and big bore it seems. The engine would need to be injected under low pressure as i previously stated. I know this is BIG WORK in doing these mods, but i can do it no problem. Any thoughts on my plan of attack from the experts here? God bless :)

I "only" got the bubbler to explode when I tried setting the gas on fire, da*n this gas is explosive, beware!!!
My guess is that I most probably likely would see quite some different firing action going should I remake my cell to
exclude the O2 and only feed H2 to the motor.
Looking forward to reading about your progress here, good luck