Wanted: Creative Thinkers

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #50, on August 18th, 2014, 08:50 PM »
Quote from firepinto on August 18th, 2014, 08:03 PM
Can we make a coil of carbon and still use it as a transformer effect?  If not then there is more to it than just electrical current flow around a magnetic core material.
I have some carbon spark plug wire, the resistance of it is pretty high, but I can surely try it.  I suspect it will work just fine.

What I think might be the most useful aspect of this is the electrodes we use in the water are critical.  I think with the proper setup, achieving 100kV as Alex suggested would be easy.  I mean, coating the electrodes with a certain type of oil may make all the difference.

The other aspect to this fits nicely with what Stan mentioned:  You could use any type of water, tap water, distilled water, rusty water, swamp water, whatever.  The water isn't critical, the electrodes are.  If we crack this thing, that will be pretty important for places that have cold winters--we could add anti-freeze without messing anything up.

Amsy

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #51, on August 19th, 2014, 12:57 AM »
Hi there.
I think it is not the metall (electrodes) which will make the water conductive. It is more the ions in it. The basic of current flow is to have valence electrons. By putting some elements in the water like KOH or NaOH or something like this, it is possible to create this electrons which can move like in copper. (currentflow). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valence_electron#Electrical_conductivity

This electrons can be moved by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_force
Maybe somehow it is possible to achieve a potential difference (=voltage) without electrode. If this doesn´t work you need an element inside of the water, which is like copper, which will generate a potential difference under magnetic influence. In this case maybe it is irrelevant how big this copper parts are. :cool:
Would be good to know what would happen if we take instead of copper an element which will push off the external magnetic force. (Diamagnetic element like bismuth, which is still conductive) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism :huh:
Hopefully this can help during overthinking the process. :P

Enrg4life

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #52, on August 19th, 2014, 06:15 AM »
I think the current flow makes the water a better conductor. In documented electrocutions in lakes and bodies  of water all people in the water are not affected the same depending where they were in relation to the electrical source energizing the water. I think the temperature of the water also makes it a better conductor as many have found in there hho cell experiments.I have never heard of people in the water being electucuted by lightning striking the water they were in.Filament light bulbs do light with water as a conductor. I have tried this to verify.

thx1138v2

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #53, on August 19th, 2014, 07:00 AM »
The toroid power source emits a magnetic field. The lattice in a metal allows the metal to respond to the magnetic field because its lattice is fixed. There is no fixed lattice in water so, although it may respond to the magnetic field in a micro sense, it does not respond to the magnetic field in a macro sense. So the tube of water is not an inductor. Water responds to the magnetic field differently than copper or iron. How would a coil of Bismuth or Mu metal act if it were used to replace the tube of water?

The general description of a semiconductor is a material that acts as an insulator under one set of circumstances and as a conductor under another set of circumstances. Diodes and transistors have impurities called dopants introduced in their manufacture to tailor the function of the semiconductor. Likewise, when you introduce a metal that responds to magnetism into the tube of water you are introducing impurities that do respond to magnetism into the water.

Air is also a semiconductor. In a spark gap the air breaks down under the influence of high voltage and conducts. It is similar to a capacitor shorting internally. The charge becomes so strong that the insulating properties of the air break down. I suspect, but don't know that water could be made to behave the same way but it would take a phenomenally large amount of power to do it. I suspect the plastic tube would melt before the water became conducting. I don't know how you impart a charge to water in a container without electrodes though since you can't do it magnetically.

The lightning example above does not apply because when the lightning strikes the water it is transferring charge, not inducing current flow through magnetism.

It might be instructive to introduce a drop of non-magnetic die into the water in the hose and then turn the power on. Maybe die in a drop of oil.

Gunther Rattay


nav

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #55, on August 19th, 2014, 09:32 AM »
To test the electromagnetic and flux potential of water why don't you build a small 1:1 transformer out of a laminated iron core, measure the resistance of that core then cut it in half. Then you make two plastic channels the same width as the transformer core that are glued to the core between the two halves and sealed. Then you can use all different types of water to test for its flux capability, monitering the voltages on the transformer as you go.

brettly

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #56, on August 20th, 2014, 02:33 AM »
as mentioned above magnetic interaction with water is very weak
(moving water with neo mags)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyqOTJOJSoU#ws
whereas voltage interaction with water is stronger force

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vu3Qt40r6s#
(moving water with static electricity)

I think there would be value in understanding how a high voltage source interacts with water molecules in terms of how static charges interact with water molecules.
The simple experiments bending a water stream with a charged comb/balloon etc generally seems to be explained by static induction, where a positive or negative area of charge aligns the water moleclues so that either the pos or neg side of the water molecule faces the charge.
I haven't found any detailed  research papers on it. My guess is that it is only the water near the surface that aligns and is attracted to the charge source.
Static charges on balloons/comb/perspex etc are in the range of kilovolts.
It appears its possible to induce a charge into water using electrostatics without use of electrodes, even though the water might have an overall neutral charge, you can induce charge into regions of the water.....thats my guess anyhow. So I think it is possible to induce charge without direct contact with the water i.e. no electrodes.





freethisone

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #57, on August 20th, 2014, 04:39 AM »
Yes a failure to...   i did some experiments with 7.5 kv static on water. what i think happened. the glass , and water did contract a charge. in comparison to a conductor  potential.small, but if you are to messure, well the useable energy would be greater. because of the diffrence in potential. you can make it discharge by grounding it with your body.
Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #58, on August 20th, 2014, 02:10 PM »
Mat try this on first. Have you touched up on your Townsend Brown?  https://www.google.com/?tbm=pts&gws_rd=ssl#q=ininventor:%22Townsend+Brown+Thomas%22&tbm=pts
generator Electric generator
US 3196296 A
US 3196296 A
https://www.google.com/patents/US3196296?dq=ininventor:%22Townsend+Brown+Thomas%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wg71U-yMIouBygTstYHQDg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA
Find prior artDiscuss this patentView PDFDownload PDF
Publication number   US3196296 A
Publication type   Grant
Publication date   Jul 20, 1965
Filing date   Jun 20, 1961
Priority date   Jun 20, 1961
Inventors   Townsend Brown Thomas
Original Assignee   Electrokinetics Inc
Export Citation   BiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (6), Referenced by (2), Classifications (5)
External Links: USPTO, USPTO Assignment, Espacenet
Electric generator
US 3196296 A
IMAGES(1)
Patent Drawing


Cycle

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #59, on December 9th, 2014, 08:55 AM »Last edited on December 9th, 2014, 11:34 AM by Cycle
Quote from Matt Watts on August 16th, 2014, 12:40 AM


Now the question is:

How does this gizmo work?

Or should I say, what do you think it does?
Right now, it doesn't do much of anything, I'd surmise. Unless you've already got either ions in your water, or something like Magnesium Hexahydrate (Mg[H2O]62+). It's paramagnetic and reduces the dissociation constant of water by approximately 40%. It's as simple as going to a camping goods store, buying one of those magnesium flint lighters that campers use, dropping it in the water, and waiting a while for it to react with the water.

The placement of your hose is wrong... outside the core of the torus, there should be little to no magnetic flux, per Ampere's Law. You'd have to have the hose as the core of the toroid coil.

freethisone