Wanted: Creative Thinkers

Jeff Nading

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #25, on August 16th, 2014, 11:31 AM »Last edited on August 16th, 2014, 11:33 AM
Ok Matt, what if you were flowing the water through the tube, say using a 12 volt pump, a hermetically seaaled system. Incorporate a potentiometer in the mix to speed up or slow down the water flow. Stan's EPG comes to mind here, with multiple taps for testing, what do you think? :D :D

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #26, on August 16th, 2014, 04:00 PM »Last edited on August 16th, 2014, 04:03 PM
Quote from Lynx on August 16th, 2014, 10:16 AM
So does the water get hot at all?
It does absolutely nothing that I can tell at this point.  Water without electrodes may not be a dielectric reflector.  And you know what that means...?

We don't know jack about how electrolysis actually works.  Nor do we know what a cathode and anode actually does.
Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #27, on August 16th, 2014, 04:09 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on August 16th, 2014, 11:31 AM
Ok Matt, what if you were flowing the water through the tube, say using a 12 volt pump, a hermetically seaaled system. Incorporate a potentiometer in the mix to speed up or slow down the water flow. Stan's EPG comes to mind here, with multiple taps for testing, what do you think? :D :D
I don't know about Stan's EPG, but it does give me some ideas about Steven Mark's TPU.

I will say this much, if we can understand what is happening in this little gizmo, the whole world of free energy might be right around the corner.

freethisone

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #28, on August 16th, 2014, 05:30 PM »Last edited on August 16th, 2014, 05:43 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on August 16th, 2014, 09:35 AM
The water isn't moving.  So what is creating the magnetic field?

Has to be dielectricity.  You can't have magnetism without it.  But to get magnetism, something else is needed.  What would that be?

Rotation.  The dielectricity must be rotating.  Think about a coil.  It's a circular shaped object, so if something moves through it or follows its dimensions, there must be a torque at some point centered within the round shape.  And this torque would certainly create a spin, a rotation.

So what does it mean to induce?  And what is a voltage?

We throw these terms around like we actually understand them, but do we really?

Lets take a stab at induction knowing that we are dealing with a rotation.  If I do something to create a rotation centered at some point, you should be able to do the reverse of what I did as long as you use the same center point.  If you use a different center point, there will be no induction or at best only partial induction.

How about voltage?  Lets think about this in terms of rotation and the number of turns in a transformer.  Maybe we can visualize what this electrical unit is actually telling us.  Because transformer turns ratio appears to be linear, lets use the analogy of mechanical gears.

I don't know if you see what I see in this image, but I clearly see voltage being the speed of rotation at the center point of each of these two meshed gears.  Voltage must have something to do with rotational velocity or the size of the rotating object.  And what could be the object here?  Dielectricity maybe...?


Now you see why I'm looking for creative thinkers?  This is all a puzzle, but I suspect our creator has given us the tools and abilities to decipher it.  We just need to think.
omg Matt did you come up with this all on your own? or did the forum come through?
now i take it a step farther.  one 6 foot diameter tube, copper perhaps? or non conducting Glass.
4 inches wide . the wider the better.

now what is happening? if the water is still, and not spinning in a toroid? what will now happen?  these are dipoles lining up. and atoms. most of the space between electrons is air. can we use water as our ferrite core? if i now add the hydoxi what will happen?

now i wind a 3 foot toroid. i have water, i spin it this time. i add the hydroxi. the other toroid  above or below the inertial plane.
now i rotate water other way. i add primary wire on small core, i add secondary wire on large core. i split the windings for multiple taps; i wind in a figure 8 fashion. and so on till you find results.


Lynx

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #29, on August 16th, 2014, 11:07 PM »
If you subject the primary to a current of say 1A, at 60 Hz, what does a clamp meter show clamped around the water tube then?

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #30, on August 17th, 2014, 12:07 AM »
Quote from Lynx on August 16th, 2014, 11:07 PM
If you subject the primary to a current of say 1A, at 60 Hz, what does a clamp meter show clamped around the water tube then?
I have a 100 watt light bulb in series between the primaries and mains power.  If I single loop a piece of copper wire as a secondary, I see about 0.5 volts.  If I short the piece of wire it smokes and the light illuminates for just a brief moment.

This is a really good 1000 watt AC power toroid core.  It draws no power unless the secondary is drawing power.  With the water tube, it simply isn't drawing power as though the tube isn't there.  I'm starting to think water without any electrodes is not a conductor, even if it's full of electrolyte.

nav

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #31, on August 17th, 2014, 02:03 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on August 15th, 2014, 05:49 PM
Hmmm, tell me more.
You won't spend energy in a flux path like you would spend it elsewhere. The trick is though, you must follow the general rule of flux paths in order to preserve the dipole so it cannot be shorted out. Therefore just like the core of a transformer uses space or air to preserve the dipole you would have to insulate the outer edges so that would suggest an insulating tube to begin with. Then as for what is in the water? I would be looking at some form of PH in the water which will interact differently with current.

Lynx

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #32, on August 17th, 2014, 02:56 AM »Last edited on August 17th, 2014, 03:04 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on August 17th, 2014, 12:07 AM
I have a 100 watt light bulb in series between the primaries and mains power.  If I single loop a piece of copper wire as a secondary, I see about 0.5 volts.  If I short the piece of wire it smokes and the light illuminates for just a brief moment.
What I mean is if you were to clamp a current meter around one of the loops on the water hose going around the toroid, say by extending the hose just enough to give room for the clamp, what current would you see then on the clamp meter if you were to put 1 A through the primary?
My theory here is as the wall socket voltage is about 110V and the light bulb is rated at 100W the current could be anything up to 1A going through the primary depending on the current going through the secondary, which of course would be made out of the 3 looped water hose.



brettly

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #33, on August 17th, 2014, 04:26 AM »
I like these sort of ideas, I was also wondering if you could 'induce' water into splitting via a coil without electrodes. I think all things are understandable if you can break them down into small understable bits.
So back to basics:
Stans method is based on a very simple premise: electrostatics. Likes repel and unlikes attract.
Electrostatics rely on positive and negative charges, they are simple to understand. Water is a polar molecule ( slight positive on one end slight negative on the other due to asymmetric orbit of electrons), so placing water near to a separate entity that has a charge ( a charged balloon near a stream of water will do the job).
In electrostatics you can 'induce' a charge from one object to another. Objects commonly used in electrostatic experiments are rubber/perspex/plastic/hair, all these things are insulators.
Water without ions is an good insulator. Charged objects get their 'charge' from lack of or excess of electrons ( free electrons I guess), ones that can move around from atom to atom.
Positive charge is lack of electrons, negative charge is excess electrons.
Water molecules in a magnetic field will align themselves to the field ( minimum field strength I'm not sure), so you might be aligning the water molecules i.e. getting them to point in a given direction depending on the north/south of the field. But I dont think you are stressing the bonds, just getting them to align with the mag field.
To stress the bonds you still need some electrostatic field ( electric field same thing)
So you still need an area where the water is immersed inbetween an area where negative charges are on one side and positive charges are on the other side.
I can certainly see what your thinking with this experiment, I've spent some time thinking along the same lines but have been unable to come up with an alternative to electrodes ( stainless tubes etc).
Kelvins water dropper comes to mind where water is charged when it splits into water droplets, the mechanism where a water stream breaking into droplets and the droplets acquire a charge I dont think is well understood. But it may be the atmospheres electric field ( 100v/m) plays a role. Once again its electrostatic in nature, probably surface charge on the water surface of the droplets. Somewhat different to water acting as a capacitor, probably related in some way.
Summary: I have no answer to the problem

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #34, on August 17th, 2014, 06:20 PM »
Quote from brettly on August 17th, 2014, 04:26 AM
Summary: I have no answer to the problem
I know exactly what the problem is.
Quote from W.B. Smith
We find ourselves in this Universe, and we are aware of it. We strive to understand it, and to do so we use all means at our disposal. We observe and speculate; we look and sometimes we find; we ask many questions and get many answers. If the questions are proper we get proper answers, but if they are not proper questions we get indefinite answers or no answers at all.

Sometimes we cannot distinguish between cause and effect or the phenomenon and the effect of the phenomenon. Sometimes we mistake the shadow for the substance and pass by the reality while we pursue the image.

Often we are so enamoured of our own brilliance that we cannot see the little glints of Truth that line our way. Many shining nuggets of Truth lie buried at our feet and if we are not too proud to dig we will find them.

There are certain fundamental Truths in this Universe and if we are prepared to accept them we can use them as tools for its better Understanding.

No principal can be described or satisfactorily defined except in terms of concepts which are more basic, until one basic concept is reached which in itself cannot be defined at all, but which will define all other concepts.

The Universe contains no anomalies, and the appearance of an anomaly is warning that our understanding is inadequate.

Mathematics must be the servant of Understanding and not its master. Equations, by their very nature, cannot discover; they can only yield relationships derived from the initial statements and which were inherently in them when they were stated.

Truth is not hidden; it is available to all and is the same for all. Apparent differences must be due to inadequate understanding.

Lynx

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #35, on August 17th, 2014, 10:12 PM »
Quote from Lynx on August 17th, 2014, 02:56 AM
What I mean is if you were to clamp a current meter around one of the loops on the water hose going around the toroid, say by extending the hose just enough to give room for the clamp, what current would you see then on the clamp meter if you were to put 1 A through the primary?
Nothing?
Perhaps nothing you can measure by using a conventional clamp meter.

How about cutting the hose in two, plug the ends using some kind of metal knobs and then put a filament lamp inbetween these two plugs and then power on.
Will it light up at all?
Maybe try LED's connected anti parallel instead of (low voltage) filament lamps to start with, LED's are a dime a dozen compared to filament lamps, and they don't take much energy to activate.

brettly

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #36, on August 18th, 2014, 02:51 AM »
another option is to put the copper windings around the plastic tube, that way max flux will be in the water ( i.e. water takes place of the core).
( nice quote matt)

freethisone

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #37, on August 18th, 2014, 03:31 AM »
another way of creative thinking.



check this out.
Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #38, on August 18th, 2014, 03:42 AM »Last edited on August 18th, 2014, 03:46 AM
Quote from nav on August 17th, 2014, 02:03 AM
You won't spend energy in a flux path like you would spend it elsewhere. The trick is though, you must follow the general rule of flux paths in order to preserve the dipole so it cannot be shorted out. Therefore just like the core of a transformer uses space or air to preserve the dipole you would have to insulate the outer edges so that would suggest an insulating tube to begin with. Then as for what is in the water? I would be looking at some form of PH in the water which will interact differently with current.
The rule. of flux path hmmm..
if  Matt you put the turns of wire inside the tube, then make the tube into a three turn coil.  what will now happen?
if instead of a copper wire as a coil, a iron wire as a core.   as a core we have a earth type setup. the surface charge, and a core charge.  test with the wave guide as a inertial plane.  it is caused to be perpendicular to the coil.  a biffliar wound  coil should be better.

2 tap wires. you can add caps, and shunt like we do with a hairpin. you can send the flux or shuttle it to a larger conductor.  and so on to preserve the dipole.

i am very creative. i want to make it like a solar disc.  it spins at the poles one way, at the equator the other. i add a axis for rotation. to observe centripital effect. and  precession.

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #39, on August 18th, 2014, 06:09 AM »
Quote from Lynx on August 17th, 2014, 10:12 PM
Nothing?
Perhaps nothing you can measure by using a conventional clamp meter.

How about cutting the hose in two, plug the ends using some kind of metal knobs and then put a filament lamp inbetween these two plugs and then power on.
Will it light up at all?
Maybe try LED's connected anti parallel instead of (low voltage) filament lamps to start with, LED's are a dime a dozen compared to filament lamps, and they don't take much energy to activate.
My initial synopsis of this device clearly indicates water, without electrodes, is not an electrical conductor at all.  You need to put a conductor inline with water in order to make water also become conductive.  Now ask yourself how many people know that little piece of trivia.

I would be willing to bet there are other materials that we currently think are conductive that actually are not when tested as I have done here with water.

Lynx

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #40, on August 18th, 2014, 08:33 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on August 18th, 2014, 06:09 AM
My initial synopsis of this device clearly indicates water, without electrodes, is not an electrical conductor at all.  You need to put a conductor inline with water in order to make water also become conductive.
Maybe I'm missing the point here, but what if you were to put some water in a plastic bucket and feed a standard light bulb through it by using the water as part of a conductor "inbetween", I.E power source first pole - lamp - other end of lamp - water - other end of water - back to the second power source pole.
If you use AC power then there won't be much electrolysis going on in the water (as opposed to DC), but the lamp should light up just the same.

Sorry for not understanding :-D

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #41, on August 18th, 2014, 03:58 PM »
If I put a piece of copper in the tubing filled with water, it conducts as I would expect.  If I take the metal out and just have water in the tube with nothing else, no conduction.  It's the metal that actually makes the water conductive.

If you can find a way to connect water to a light bulb without using any metal conductors, I'd love to see it.

freethisone

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #42, on August 18th, 2014, 04:21 PM »
Matt please explain . you have a  coil and a tube of water. how much energy are you sending into the coil?  how does energy come from a water filled tube. i know you said a single strand of coil one turn, but were?

thx1138v2

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #43, on August 18th, 2014, 04:47 PM »Last edited on August 18th, 2014, 04:55 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on August 18th, 2014, 06:09 AM
My initial synopsis of this device clearly indicates water, without electrodes, is not an electrical conductor at all.  You need to put a conductor inline with water in order to make water also become conductive.  Now ask yourself how many people know that little piece of trivia.

I would be willing to bet there are other materials that we currently think are conductive that actually are not when tested as I have done here with water.
Or one might say that water without anything to conduct is not a conductor, i.e. die, electricity, wood chips, or whatever. Water with electrodes that are disconnected from any energy source also does not conduct yet it does have electrodes. The electrodes have nothing to conduct but they are still conductors. They are just not conducting at that time.

So what was the question?
Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #44, on August 18th, 2014, 04:57 PM »
I just scrolled up to look at the pictures and diagrams. So what do you get if you seal an electrode into each end of the water tube and connect a meter across it?

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #45, on August 18th, 2014, 05:01 PM »
Quote from freethisone on August 18th, 2014, 04:21 PM
Matt please explain . you have a  coil and a tube of water. how much energy are you sending into the coil?  how does energy come from a water filled tube. i know you said a single strand of coil one turn, but were?
Let me put this in as simple of terms as I can.  The tube of water is acting like a shorted coil of wire.  At least that's what I thought it would do.  There are over 200 amps available on the secondary of that transformer with only three turns.  The reality is, the water does not act like a piece of wire by itself.  It must have a metallic conductor in series with it, otherwise it is just as much of an insulator as the elastic tubing is.  ZERO current flow.
Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #46, on August 18th, 2014, 05:05 PM »
Quote from thx1138v2 on August 18th, 2014, 04:57 PM
I just scrolled up to look at the pictures and diagrams. So what do you get if you seal an electrode into each end of the water tube and connect a meter across it?
A short, as I would expect.

And if I leave a piece of metal in there and apply power, it hums, buzzes, gets hot and draws a boatload of juice.  Again as I would expect.

But with no metal object in contact with the water, it does absolutely nothing.  And I'm quite sure the water is touching all the way around.  I purged all the air bubbles out.

freethisone

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #47, on August 18th, 2014, 06:10 PM »
well rf and water, add salt or nano gold silver. it will heat up. so instead of a flame to heat it, use RF or simply eddy currents are heating the water?

Matt Watts

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #48, on August 18th, 2014, 06:37 PM »Last edited on August 18th, 2014, 06:41 PM
Quote from freethisone on August 18th, 2014, 06:10 PM
well rf and water, add salt or nano gold silver. it will heat up. so instead of a flame to heat it, use RF or simply eddy currents are heating the water?
Did you even look at the picture I posted Free?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2f-MZ2HRHQ#ws

firepinto

Re: Wanted: Creative Thinkers
« Reply #49, on August 18th, 2014, 08:03 PM »
So thinking on this some, I come up with natures example of lightning striking lake or ocean water.  There is no metal plates or electrodes, the earth may be considered a plate?  What there really is, or what we were taught so far, are potentials.  The atmosphere and earth ground, with some water in the middle. 

I think at most, a hose full of water wrapped around a transformer core would only ossilate the water molecules slightly.  Otherwise we could see the surface of a calm pool of water, disturbed with a major wake if we swooped a big N52 neo magnet quickly over the surface with out touching it. 

Water seems to be more of capacitor of electrical charge than it is of a conductor.  Lasersaber has a video charging up a bottle of water with a Vandegraph generator.  No electrical connections, through a sealed bottle.  The bottle would run his ATMO motor by its self if i remember. 

Can we make a coil of carbon and still use it as a transformer effect?  If not then there is more to it than just electrical current flow around a magnetic core material.