OK, Currently the B.B. 101 is the only project I am working on. The cell has long hours of brute force testing and is very efficient by itself. The G board preforms as represented thru a wide range of freq. and duty cycles. The toroid has been wound according Bob`s own formula to match the cell. The triple waveform can easily be viewed with no more than a small coil attached to + probe of the scope and placed on top of the cell. However up to this point resonance has eluded me. I have logged many long hours of systematically working my way slowly thru the freq. Very little has been written about the relationship to each other and what to look for. What has been is pretty sketchy. I may have just not hit the sweet spot yet. I am definitely looking for some guidance here.  I also have a lot of ringing in the waveforms and to me this points to a mismatch input impedance to my load. This may very well be my problem and this is the direction I am looking in now. In my opinion the formula for matching the electronics to the cell is generic at best.  This is where it gets little over my head. I`m a machinist ,not a circuit designer.  Also most of my test equipment I have is primitive as well.  But I am happy to share everything I have learned so far. I am not ready to give up on the G board yet but admit it has its limits as well.

Hi Heatlocke,
According to Bob you can't get the LEM for a year.
So maybe changing to a resonant system temporarily might be more productive from you.
Can anyone suggest how Heatlocke could make his system use resonance.
Also at one point Bob has stated for resonance in his system you have to use impedance matching of the coil(s) as he is using the plate system as a resistive system.
Could somebody post the neccessary steps or an idea to take to build the impedance matching of the plate system?

John

Thanks for the encouragement Adam.  Resonance is clearly what we want and some advice on how to achieve it is what I`m hoping for. Most likely my system is NOT matched properly and Bob`s calculations hasn`t produced the right results. Surely there must be a better way to do this than a generic math formula. Just to many variables for this to be accurate.

Heatlocke, don't know where to start but maybe if I toss out some ideas or questions for something to think about maybe we can get some answers for you.

Something I'm thinking about is at what current will the temperature of your cell start changing, I'm trying to get an idea of where the resistance will change from temp/current.
Another thing that bothers me is the cell has a resistance when in the off position but that resistance will change when on and would be the reactance.
What would it take to calculate for a set of chokes that can become resonant when the system is on and pulsing DC at a certain frequency.

Maybe you should just wrap up a 1lb chunk of iron/nickel laminate that's 1" thick with 40'-45' of 18awg wire, make 2 or try bifilar.
You also may need a different PWM than the PWM3G, don't think it is designed for this.
There may be a pretty generic math formula to calculate wire, resistance and frequency. Somewhere Bob stated it was not based on a capacitive system but is on a resistive calculation.

Quote from DanB on December 28th, 2012, 02:36 PM

I find it interesting that he said he (Bob Boyce) was unable to get it to work using tubes.

The reason he could not get the tube cells working is explained in the water fuel cell Tech. breif thread.

Gpssonar,  Glad to see you chime in here. Since impedance matching is what I am most concerned with in my cell, I have read thru your thread [WFC tech briefing] many times. Both Meyers and Boyce had similar end results but the two systems could not be more different. I don`t even claim to grasp what Meyers was doing but I do have a pretty good understanding of what Boyce claims to have done. Unfortunately with my limited knowledge of the Meyer circuit and electrical theory in general I haven`t been able to apply this to my Boyce cell. Since you started that thread and you understand it well you seem perfect for the job ! I have a complete Boyce rig up and running. Lets work together and figure this out.  I need some help.

I would be more than happy to help you. I looked at Boyce's system a few years back, but never built one. I'll go back a take a look at it and see where i can help you on the impedance.

I'm going to toss this out there because I hadn't heard anyone mention it, let alone explore the possibility.

Suppose when Bob's watercraft began wildly accelerating that it wasn't a burst of Hydroxy production causing it.  Suppose instead, it was the highly energetic water-cluster gas that was being made and added to the already present Hydroxy gas.

Moray King has been looking far and wide for possible examples of this mystery gas that he claims is far more powerful than Hydroxy (typically known as HHO).  It is presumed this water-cluster gas is orders of magnitude more powerful by volume, i.e. 3 LpM WC gas may be equivalent to 30 LpM Hydroxy.  Moray anticipates this gas being made by some form of cavitation within the fuel cell.  This could come from vibration, physically, electrically and even possibly magnetically.  Key indicators of this WC gas is that it appears to form in between the plates, not on them.

So anyone that has really good eyes and intuition, may want to have another look at the Bob Boyce system and see if you can spot key elements that may support the production of WC gas.  It's quite possible someone has made this gas and because of the low output production figured it was nothing and moved on.  It might be worth while to check again and do some soap bubble tests of the gas.  I certainly wouldn't recommend filling a balloon with it if in fact it is much more powerful.

here is a thought dc. takes the water apart but the overlay of ac stops it from recombining and holds the atoms in a state of stress so that the next pulse of dc can pull them apart  with out the use of hv.  at the sweet spot the easyer it gets

ps just thinking out loud

Quote from Matt Watts on November 3rd, 2013, 10:19 PM

I'm going to toss this out there because I hadn't heard anyone mention it, let alone explore the possibility.

Suppose when Bob's watercraft began wildly accelerating that it wasn't a burst of Hydroxy production causing it.  Suppose instead, it was the highly energetic water-cluster gas that was being made and added to the already present Hydroxy gas.

Moray King has been looking far and wide for possible examples of this mystery gas that he claims is far more powerful than Hydroxy (typically known as HHO).  It is presumed this water-cluster gas is orders of magnitude more powerful by volume, i.e. 3 LpM WC gas may be equivalent to 30 LpM Hydroxy.  Moray anticipates this gas being made by some form of cavitation within the fuel cell.  This could come from vibration, physically, electrically and even possibly magnetically.  Key indicators of this WC gas is that it appears to form in between the plates, not on them.

So anyone that has really good eyes and intuition, may want to have another look at the Bob Boyce system and see if you can spot key elements that may support the production of WC gas.  It's quite possible someone has made this gas and because of the low output production figured it was nothing and moved on.  It might be worth while to check again and do some soap bubble tests of the gas.  I certainly wouldn't recommend filling a balloon with it if in fact it is much more powerful.

Good thinking Matt, I bet WC gas has been overlooked.;)

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 4th, 2013, 05:45 PM

Quote from Matt Watts on November 3rd, 2013, 10:19 PM

I'm going to toss this out there because I hadn't heard anyone mention it, let alone explore the possibility.

Suppose when Bob's watercraft began wildly accelerating that it wasn't a burst of Hydroxy production causing it.  Suppose instead, it was the highly energetic water-cluster gas that was being made and added to the already present Hydroxy gas.

Moray King has been looking far and wide for possible examples of this mystery gas that he claims is far more powerful than Hydroxy (typically known as HHO).  It is presumed this water-cluster gas is orders of magnitude more powerful by volume, i.e. 3 LpM WC gas may be equivalent to 30 LpM Hydroxy.  Moray anticipates this gas being made by some form of cavitation within the fuel cell.  This could come from vibration, physically, electrically and even possibly magnetically.  Key indicators of this WC gas is that it appears to form in between the plates, not on them.

So anyone that has really good eyes and intuition, may want to have another look at the Bob Boyce system and see if you can spot key elements that may support the production of WC gas.  It's quite possible someone has made this gas and because of the low output production figured it was nothing and moved on.  It might be worth while to check again and do some soap bubble tests of the gas.  I certainly wouldn't recommend filling a balloon with it if in fact it is much more powerful.

Good thinking Matt, I bet WC gas has been overlooked.;)

Every one having a WFC, should have also some means to test the power of the produced gas. So that next to lpm pwatt, also power per ccm (cubic centimeters) can be given and compared to others.

If such would have been done for the last five years, we would have seen big differences in power and thus sort of gas produced. And so would have been already closer to knowing what makes the stronger gas.

When I hear "Boyce" I just have to jump in. I began working on this project shortly after he released his info on the web. Did I just say that ?  Hell, I may be the last soul survivor still working on it. I have heard all the arguments , diatomic, monoatomic, between the plates, on the plates.  2 days ago I tested this for 6 hrs. I had constant power on the cell making a small amount of gas the full time. I had various freqs running on the cell full time as well. I did not test the gas at any time. I have in the past.  Turn the freqs on and off and the production remains unchanged. My point is this. In this case I don`t believe there would be any change in the gas. I have run my cell at high amps with REAL production. I have even run an engine like this. I experimented with 3 different freqs at the time and quite honestly I never saw any change. I still believe its possible to make this WC gas or I would not be so dedicated to this project. But I would like to see just one person come forward and demonstrate gas being made by frequency or for that matter by any other means besides brute force electrolysis. I have been waiting a long time.    

Maybe mail some bobboyce fangroup?

    heatlocke,the water molecules can be broken by freq.but in the Mhz rangeOf course freq does nothing to water,you swiching whe voltage\amps on and off..Bob boyce cell is brute force and brute force heats up the wires and boils the water after some time producing steam and corode plates.I wouldn call bob b. an inventor\researcher it uses brute force and ''magical'' freq to show that is not doing brute force..but it does.

Quote from heatlocke on November 5th, 2013, 10:20 AM

When I hear "Boyce" I just have to jump in. I began working on this project shortly after he released his info on the web. Did I just say that ?  Hell, I may be the last soul survivor still working on it. I have heard all the arguments , diatomic, monoatomic, between the plates, on the plates.  2 days ago I tested this for 6 hrs. I had constant power on the cell making a small amount of gas the full time. I had various freqs running on the cell full time as well. I did not test the gas at any time. I have in the past.  Turn the freqs on and off and the production remains unchanged. My point is this. In this case I don`t believe there would be any change in the gas. I have run my cell at high amps with REAL production. I have even run an engine like this. I experimented with 3 different freqs at the time and quite honestly I never saw any change. I still believe its possible to make this WC gas or I would not be so dedicated to this project. But I would like to see just one person come forward and demonstrate gas being made by frequency or for that matter by any other means besides brute force electrolysis. I have been waiting a long time.

heatlocke, I'm with you, we all have been waiting a long time.:s I remember when Stan Meyer was on the news with a water powered car.

[quote author=adys15'
    Bob boyce cell is brute force and brute force heats up the wires and boils the water after some time producing steam and corode plates.I wouldn call bob b. an inventor\researcher it uses brute force and ''magical'' freq to show that is not doing brute force..but it does.


Sorry adys15, thats just not the case. Bob`s actual recommendation is 160vdc for the 101 plate cell with the toroid power unit. At that voltage true electrolysis is barely taking place and hardly noticeable. That is why I set mine at 175vdc. Its just enough action to produce an audible plop, plop, plop in the bubbler and if you hit on the right freq. you can immediately notice. That a long way from making steam.  

Quote from Jeff Nading on November 5th, 2013, 02:46 PM

I remember when Stan Meyer was on the news with a water powered car.

I remember that aswell, I also remember thinking "Ok, not too long now then before I'm able to buy myself a brand new water fuelled car".
I also remember thinking in the years that followed after that news clip "What's taking so long? Why aren't there more news about this?".

Sad

Quote from heatlocke on November 5th, 2013, 03:25 PM

[quote author=adys15'
    Bob boyce cell is brute force and brute force heats up the wires and boils the water after some time producing steam and corode plates.I wouldn call bob b. an inventor\researcher it uses brute force and ''magical'' freq to show that is not doing brute force..but it does.


Sorry adys15, thats just not the case. Bob`s actual recommendation is 160vdc for the 101 plate cell with the toroid power unit. At that voltage true electrolysis is barely taking place and hardly noticeable. That is why I set mine at 175vdc. Its just enough action to produce an audible plop, plop, plop in the bubbler and if you hit on the right freq. you can immediately notice. That a long way from making steam.  

160 from the toroid?Ok but only the word ''elecrolite'' tels me that bob boyce's cell is using amps,lots of amps,that will heat up the water after a while no mater what freq you input.You said that you didnt make hho with freq but now...

[attachment=4537]
adys15, Here is the Boyce circuit. As you can see the drive circuit and the electrolizer circuit can be seperate power supplies. The Boyce plan is to bring the cell to just the threshold of electrolisis and transmit freqs. thru the primaries on to the secondary and dissociate by freq. alone, or by inducing ZPE into the system or by creating resonance inside the cell. You choose ! All 3 claims have been made. And all that for under an amp. It could be magic and thats the reason I haven`t got it to work. Im not  magician.

Quote from heatlocke on November 6th, 2013, 10:27 AM

adys15, Here is the Boyce circuit. As you can see the drive circuit and the electrolizer circuit can be seperate power supplies. The Boyce plan is to bring the cell to just the threshold of electrolisis and transmit freqs. thru the primaries on to the secondary and dissociate by freq. alone, or by inducing ZPE into the system or by creating resonance inside the cell. You choose ! All 3 claims have been made. And all that for under an amp. It could be magic and thats the reason I haven`t got it to work. Im not  magician.

Heatlocke, the red wire in that diagram where it goes to the toroid, how many turns do you have on it?

Also the high voltage coming out of the bridge rectifier, do you have the negative terminal on that in any way grounded to your cell?   I ask, because it might be a good idea to use an isolation transformer between the bridge rectifier and the wall power since you're probably not using an inverter.  When you run wall power through a bridge rectifier, you still have the essence of neutral power associated to the output circuit.  Don't believe me?  Try touching either of the output terminals to something grounded and you'll see diodes blow or breakers trip.  If you use an isolation transformer prior to the bridge rectifier, you won't see this issue.

[quote author=Matt Watts'
Heatlocke, the red wire in that diagram where it goes to the toroid, how many turns do you have on it?

129 turns on mine, that would be the secondary and 41 turns each on the primaries. There is a pic of an exposed primary winding on my thread.

[quote author=Matt Watts'
Also the high voltage coming out of the bridge rectifier, do you have the negative terminal on that in any way grounded to your cell?   I ask, because it might be a good idea to use an isolation transformer between the bridge rectifier and the wall power since you're probably not using an inverter.

The short answer is no. I use a 120vac variac into a commercial 220volt to 120volt ac transformer and to a rectifier and a couple smoothing caps. The neg goes to one end of the cell and the pos, after passing thru the secondary winding of the toroid goes to the other and of the cell. No neutrals between the plates. The transformer is a step down type so I am using it backwards and I`m limited to about 210vac at about 5.5 amps, but I never go that high. 175 vdc at the cell shows about 1/2 an amp draw. There is a pic of this as well on my thread.  

All 3 claims have been made'' by who?i 'v seen only failiers

Quote from heatlocke on November 6th, 2013, 02:41 PM

The short answer is no. I use a 120vac variac into a commercial 220volt to 120volt ac transformer and to a rectifier and a couple smoothing caps. The neg goes to one end of the cell and the pos, after passing thru the secondary winding of the toroid goes to the other and of the cell. No neutrals between the plates. The transformer is a step down type so I am using it backwards and I`m limited to about 210vac at about 5.5 amps, but I never go that high. 175 vdc at the cell shows about 1/2 an amp draw.

Is this an "autoformer" with a common neutral or a true isolation-type variac?

For grins, can you get some voltage readings between your house power neutral and each output leg of the bridge rectifier.  Probably good to get both AC an DC readings.

I'm trying to rule out some weird external factor that might help explain the voltage climb you're now seeing when pulsing.  I still don't really get the 17, 17, 57 percent phase offsets unless they are somehow kicking back into the house wiring some way.  The fact that you are not using an inverter as in the Boyce circuit, tells me we need to check this high-voltage side out just a bit more before looking deep into the toroid and the windings themselves.  I mean what we are seeing looks like a good thing, but figuring out why it behaves as it does is still a little magical.

Don't think I can add much to this thread here heatlocke, Matt's doing a very good job. I'm just fresh out of ideas myself on this one, sorry. :D

Quote from freethisone on December 16th, 2012, 09:29 AM

here is a hint he gave.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_bias


AC, can be severely disrupted by the presence of a large DC bias.
wiki

Electrical grid

The electrical grid, which is normally three-phase AC, can be severely disrupted by the presence of a large DC bias. This is caused by strong solar flares hitting the Earth's atmosphere, which in turn creates strong electromagnetic fields. This induces voltages in long-distance electrical lines, which can be strong enough to arc across transformers. (Even pipelines, such as the mostly above-ground Alaska Pipeline, are prone to this, and must be tied to electrical ground with zinc sacrificial anodes.) This is a rare but serious problem, mostly for far northern locations like Canada and Scandinavia, where a strong aurora borealis will cover much lower latitudes than normal during such a situation. Space weather forecasts are used to predict when these geomagnetic storm events might occur. High-voltage direct current systems have their own control gear at conversion stations and can adapt somewhat better to such conditions, however large and often widely-fluctuating voltages can still cause problems like harmonics.

so what did we learn?

it is a negative bias or negative resistance.:heart I consider the same can be done with a positive resistance. water can at  least  be a negative resistance..