Hi all.
i had an idea for easy making PLL circuits,for testing the basic WFC's Meyer Tech.

The importance of  Perfect 50% duty cycle frequency generator crkt and Gate frequency generator crkt is;
1.Perfect 50% duty cycle frequency generator crkt is for driving a soft iron toroidal transformer and for driving at resonant frequency.
2.Gate frequency generator is low tune on (5%)3rd picture, like Stan said.or match water resonant frequency or waiting for completely discharge.somethings like that,i'm not sure.

Problem with 555 timer is;
1.not perfect 50% duty(~60% or ~40%),if use Dave Lawton crkt that can adjust 50% duty but frequency change.you need only change frequency but no change in 50% duty.

i have 2 crkts for solving that problem.i need to share very easy circuits.

(1) flip/flop Perfect 50% duty circle frequency generator circuit for driving mosfet.
-Capacitor can use both types(non polar or polar),frequency range depend on Capacitor
(small F = high frequency,1uF about 50-60HZ,0.01uF about 5kHZ,1nF= about 50kHZ,0.5nF about 120kHZ).
-R 680 can change to 1k(9V supply) or 2k(12.5V supply).R10K can change to 15K(12.5V supply).
-BC547 can change to 2n2222,2n3904,2n4401.
-1st picture is flip/flop inverter.4th picture is modified circuit for create pulse signal 1 output to drive mosfet.
-crkt problem is "fixed frequency but perfect 50% duty cycle".

(2) 4046 Perfect 50% duty circle frequency generator circuit(0HZ-1.5MHZ).
- if need to try big range( 1HZ-1.5MHZ) to learn or find resonant frequency,i think this is good.i tested with my oscilloscope.in 1.5Mhz that can maintain perfect 50% duty cycle.this is CD4046B,CMOS type.i tried like Ted (CD4093) but not perfect 50% duty cycle.4046 need 1 resistor(22k),1 potential meter(i used 220k) and C=47pF.Very easy!!
-crkt problem is "when drive power mosfet above 25khz range,this **can't** maintain 50% duty cycle".i think "this circuit can use to find resonant with low voltage but can't drive power mosfet".maybe mosfet driver can drive over 25khz+ with 50% duty cycle maintain.

-about Gate frequency generator,i don't finish yet.may be Russ has that.

thanks
geenee  

Quote from geenee on December 8th, 2012, 11:24 AM

i have 2 crkts for solving that problem.i need to share very easy circuits.
(1) flip/flop Perfect 50% duty circle frequency generator circuit for driving mosfet.
-Capacitor can use both types(non polar or polar),frequency range depend on Capacitor
(small F = high frequency,1uF about 50-60HZ,0.01uF about 5kHZ,1nF= about 50kHZ,0.5nF about 120kHZ).
-R 680 can change to 1k(9V supply) or 2k(12.5V supply).R10K can change to 15K(12.5V supply).
-BC547 can change to 2n2222,2n3904,2n4401.
-1st picture is flip/flop inverter.4th picture is modified circuit for create pulse signal 1 output to drive mosfet.
-crkt problem is "fixed frequency but perfect 50% duty cycle".

(2) 4046 Perfect 50% duty circle frequency generator circuit(0HZ-1.5MHZ).
- if need to try big range( 1HZ-1.5MHZ) to learn or find resonant frequency,i think this is good.i tested with my oscilloscope.in 1.5Mhz that can maintain perfect 50% duty cycle.this is CD4046B,CMOS type.i tried like Ted (CD4093) but not perfect 50% duty cycle.4046 need 1 resistor(22k),1 potential meter(i used 220k) and C=47pF.Very easy!!
-crkt problem is "when drive power mosfet above 25khz range,this can maintain 50% duty cycle".i think "this circuit can use to find resonant with low voltage but can't drive power mosfet".maybe mosfet driver can drive over 25khz+ with 50% duty cycle maintain.

I am assuming these are for pulsing a water fuel cell correct?

Will this help any (see attached)?  Rated at somewhere between 20-30ns rise/fall times.

So are you thinking at all like me--just ditch the coils and take raw high voltage DC and pulse the WFC every which way until you hit on something?

i might be confused. but this may help.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=326

also. its not PPL. but it may help answer some questions?

it is 50% duty using a flipflop. :)

let me know if i'm confused on what your doing.

~Russ

geenee,

Found this at:  http://www.amazing1.com/hv-hf-power-supplies.htm



Look at this power supply:
http://www.amazing1.com/download/PVM500_INS.pdf
http://www.amazing1.com/download/PVM500BASICSCHEMATIC.pdf
http://www.amazing1.com/download/DUTYCYCLEWRITEUP.pdf

I could spend weeks going through their website:  http://www.amazing1.com/

Now doesn't that seem like what we are trying to do pretty much.

I'm thinking we need a little bit of gated DC voltage with about 100mA--just enough to polarize the water a little.  Then on top of the DC, we hammer the water with high voltage AC to get the molecules to split apart.  The high voltage AC part is where we need to tune into the resonant frequency.  Does that sound about right from your understanding?

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on December 8th, 2012, 05:37 PM

i might be confused. but this may help.

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=326

also. its not PPL. but it may help answer some questions?

it is 50% duty using a flipflop. :)

let me know if i'm confused on what your doing.

~Russ

Hi, Russ.
i think to share my easy circuits.that can oscillate real 50 duty cycle pulse wave.like have a frequency generator to test resonant circuit,in wide range(1.5Mhz).i'm not electronic guy.i think "no complicate circuit is best,if you don't have a frequency generator".Sorry about my language that's confused to you.555 timer can make 50 duty cycle too(add flipflop) but have many components.i have an oscilloscope and checked 555 timer of Stan.Stan say 50%duty but his crkt doesn't have 50% duty.

or Russ,you confuse about this? --->"about Gate frequency generator,i don't finish yet.may be Russ has that."
- i think"you have a variable duty cycle frequency generator,that can change frequency without changing duty cycle".

to Dog-one.
i think it's very hard to test resonant circuit,with water capacitor.if you make an easy test with 5 voltage from 4046 crkt(circuit) and use 1 coil(1mH-40mH) and your WFC,connect in series then find resonant frequency."

the best way to try about resonant frequency is Frequency Generator.but if you don't have that ,try with this circuit.

PS.Sorry about wrong typing.this--->>
(2) 4046 Perfect 50% duty circle frequency generator circuit(0HZ-1.5MHZ).
- if need to try big range( 1HZ-1.5MHZ) to learn or find resonant frequency,i think this is good.i tested with my oscilloscope.in 1.5Mhz that can maintain perfect 50% duty cycle.this is CD4046B,CMOS type.i tried like Ted (CD4093) but not perfect 50% duty cycle.4046 need 1 resistor(22k),1 potential meter(i used 220k) and C=47pF.Very easy!!
-crkt problem is "when drive power mosfet above 25khz range,this can(correct is "can't") maintain 50% duty cycle".i think "this circuit can use to find resonant with low voltage but can't drive power mosfet".maybe mosfet driver can drive over 25khz+ with 50% duty cycle maintain.

thanks
geenee

Quote from geenee on December 8th, 2012, 09:32 PM

i think it's very hard to test resonant circuit,with water capacitor.if you make an easy test with 5 voltage from 4046 crkt(circuit) and use 1 coil(1mH-40mH) and your WFC,connect in series then find resonant frequency."

the best way to try about resonant frequency is Frequency Generator.but if you don't have that ,try with this circuit.

I really don't think a simple TTL oscillator is going to setup the proper conditions within the cell to ever find resonance.  Having played with the WFC for quite a while and reading everything I can find on the Internet, you have to create the right conditions in the cell; those conditions do not create bubbles at all so you are flying blind.  But if you do happen to hit on the right condition, then you pulse the cell with high voltage.  You still won't see anything and the cell will appear to be a dead short.  But as you scan through the frequencies, all of the sudden you will notice a drop in input amperage to the high voltage source, because that source will no longer appear to be going through a dead short and the voltage will start to rise.  With a bit more tuning, then you'll see the voltage climb much higher to something over 200 volts; that's when you'll start seeing gas production.  I sure wish I could speak first hand about this, but I have never gotten that far.  I can only tell you what a few people where able to explain when it happened to them.

I really think you need some low current, low voltage electrolysis action to set the stage.  You need the water to be right on the edge of splitting; that's when the rest of the circuitry is able to push it over the edge.  Once you get the water just foaming with bubbles is when you'll notice power draw is way down under the Faraday constants of 140 watts per Liter per Minute.  Not to burst anyone's bubble, but even when you go above unity, you still need flow rate to do much of anything useful.  Three Liters per Minute is not going to run a car; maybe not even a small 1kW generator.  At that point you have to scale out with multiple cells and other tricks to make the HHO more powerful.  Even still, having an HHO torch that runs off of less than 200 Watts of power is pretty cool.

i took photos to show wave forms of all types(frequency gen).

1.555 timer 8XA 9XB circuit of Meyer,frequency about 10-15 KHz(not sure).you see that ,70-80% dutycycle.
2.555 timer modified 50 dutycycle(connect like datasheet of 555,pdf said 50%duty)but you see,about 55-60% duty cycle.
3.4046 at about 1.272 MHz,on and off time are equal.that 's 50%.
4.1uS range on ocilloscope of 3rd picture.
5.cd4046 circuit.
6.4046 at about 113 KHz,you see,very sharp and equal 50% duty cycle.
7.circuit of 1st picture 9XB.
8.circuit of 2nd picture.

To Dog-One
- i think "4046 act like square wave frequency generator and it can oscillate LC series or parallel,output voltage of pin 4 is about 5-7 volts RMS.function generator(frequency generator) can have 5,10,20 volts output.".
-in normal test LC circuit if you don't know value of C but you know value of L,then you can use frequency generator and oscilloscope to find resonant frequency.finally you can use frequency and value of L to calculate value of C. this use voltage from signal generator.after that, you know value of C then you can put high voltage drive power mosfet and can use this frequency for big scale.that's my thought.


thanks
geenee

Geenee,thanks for the scope shots,Stan's 9xb outputs 50% duty because the 74ls90 is dividing the signal in 10...,i build that crkt and it does.the problem is that is not a clean square wave(or my soundcard scope is not verry acurate).I know bussy made some mods to get a clean signal but does not replied....I will try the 4046 crkt and see what it does.Dog-one remember that Stan used the 4046 for generating the resonant signal on the PLL...so it might work.
Geenee the 4046 output is a 50% duty or you feed the 4017 in your schematic?
See my scope shots on the 9xb,i managed to ''repair'' the square waves when replacing the 10k pots wits 4k7 res.but on 1x is still laggy...

Quote from geenee on December 9th, 2012, 02:12 AM

- i think "4046 act like square wave frequency generator and it can oscillate LC series or parallel,output voltage of pin 4 is about 5-7 volts RMS.function generator(frequency generator) can have 5,10,20 volts output.".
-in normal test LC circuit if you don't know value of C but you know value of L,then you can use frequency generator and oscilloscope to find resonant frequency.finally you can use frequency and value of L to calculate value of C. this use voltage from signal generator.after that, you know value of C then you can put high voltage drive power mosfet and can use this frequency for big scale.that's my thought.

Okay, so let me ask you this:  Can you setup the 50% duty cycle 555 timer circuit and substitute C with your water capacitor and make the oscillator run?  This is an RC not an LC circuit though, but if your premise is correct, you will know the output frequency (can measure it with the scope) and the R value so you should be able to calculate C correct?

What I think you will run into is the fact that the water capacitor is far from an ideal capacitor.  For one, if you try to charge the water capacitor above 2 volts, it will appear to be a dead short (very low resistance).  Certainly you can try it though and see what kind of numbers you get.

Quote from adys15 on December 9th, 2012, 11:01 AM

Geenee,thanks for the scope shots,Stan's 9xb outputs 50% duty because the 74ls90 is dividing the signal in 10...,i build that crkt and it does.the problem is that is not a clean square wave(or my soundcard scope is not verry acurate).I know bussy made some mods to get a clean signal but does not replied....I will try the 4046 crkt and see what it does.Dog-one remember that Stan used the 4046 for generating the resonant signal on the PLL...so it might work.
Geenee the 4046 output is a 50% duty or you feed the 4017 in your schematic?
See my scope shots on the 9xb,i managed to ''repair'' the square waves when replacing the 10k pots wits 4k7 res.but on 1x is still laggy...

To adys15.that's only 4046 crkt(picture no.5).

Quote from Dog-One on December 9th, 2012, 11:17 AM

Quote from geenee on December 9th, 2012, 02:12 AM

- i think "4046 act like square wave frequency generator and it can oscillate LC series or parallel,output voltage of pin 4 is about 5-7 volts RMS.function generator(frequency generator) can have 5,10,20 volts output.".
-in normal test LC circuit if you don't know value of C but you know value of L,then you can use frequency generator and oscilloscope to find resonant frequency.finally you can use frequency and value of L to calculate value of C. this use voltage from signal generator.after that, you know value of C then you can put high voltage drive power mosfet and can use this frequency for big scale.that's my thought.

Okay, so let me ask you this:  Can you setup the 50% duty cycle 555 timer circuit and substitute C with your water capacitor and make the oscillator run?  This is an RC not an LC circuit though, but if your premise is correct, you will know the output frequency (can measure it with the scope) and the R value so you should be able to calculate C correct?

What I think you will run into is the fact that the water capacitor is far from an ideal capacitor.  For one, if you try to charge the water capacitor above 2 volts, it will appear to be a dead short (very low resistance).  Certainly you can try it though and see what kind of numbers you get.

To Dog-One.
-Yes,i can setup 50% duty cycle with Dave Lawton crkt(2ea 555).but that hard to find resonant(cause if change frequency then you must change duty to maintain 50%duty).if this 's LC circuit then it can calculate C.Resistance value is not importance in L,C and F calculation.but if it is a RC circuit that i don't know how to calculate C and R value.another step i will try all.i'm not an electronics guy.but i will do my best.



thanks
geenee

To adys15.that's only 4046 crkt(picture no.5).

thanks
geenee[/quote]thanks,in your skematic on freq selection is that a pot? or you have to change resistors from 10k to 200k,sorry but pin 9, vcc and gnd conections are confusing

Quote from adys15 on December 9th, 2012, 12:39 PM

To adys15.that's only 4046 crkt(picture no.5).

thanks
geenee

thanks,in your skematic on freq selection is that a pot? or you have to change resistors from 10k to 200k,sorry but pin 9, vcc and gnd conections are confusing[/quote]yes,change frequency by potential meter.10k - 220k meaning you can use any value in 10k to 200k range potential meter but that setup i use 22ok ohms. normally vcc(vdd) is supply voltage pin 16(+5to+15V) and gnd (pin 8) is negative side of battery(- pole).pin 9 is center pin of potential meter.potential meter has 3 pins.

about word,frequency selector,i used wrong word.i'm not good in english.that mean frequency changer.

thanks
geenee

yes,change frequency by potential meter.10k - 220k meaning you can use any value in 10k to 200k range potential meter but that setup i use 22ok ohms. normally vcc(vdd) is supply voltage pin 16(+5to+15V) and gnd (pin 8) is negative side of battery(- pole).pin 9 is center pin of potential meter.potential meter has 3 pins.

about word,frequency selector,i used wrong word.i'm not good in english.that mean frequency changer.

thanks
geenee[/quote]ok,thanks,i presumed that there was the pin of the  pot but was not sure,in schematics usualy i see 2 pins shorted thats why was confused,anyway i will try it,thanks again.

To Dog-One

-Sorry about wrong understanding,complete 9Xb circuit that can make perfect 50%dutycycle(from adys15).but 9xb has more complex and more components.but if you use 9xb circuit frequency will limit to less than 50khz if coil is small then you cannot get resonant.I agree with your thought about dead short.RC circuit is RL,WFC with diode,Right?? then importance thing is charge capacitor without dead short.maybe you need 0.1%duty or 1%dutycycle to charge WFC with DCHV.but LC series is not importance??in your thought?maybe easy than resonant LC series.just HV and pulse minimum duty cycle to prevent dead short.

To adys15
-this circuit i found on internet by searching google.
http://www.oocities.org/tjacodesign/generate/generate.html

thanks
geenee

I build the circuit today and it works,but you cannot change the freq with the weird pot conection,it outputs a 50% duty freq(see att).I changed the 47pf cap to a 33nf to be able to see the square shape,my pot was 10k.I dont know why the builder from that site says that to change freq you have to change either resistor(220k) or cap( 47f)(which is true) and then hooks the pot ''shorting'' the vcc with pin 9 and gnd.I made a modif and remowed the weird pot and placing a 10k res. between pin 9 and gnd.tThe 220k was replaced with 100k pot and now i can change the freq,but only from 1Kz-10Kz,if you want more range maybe you have to put a multyturn pot.

Genee I want to ask you have you build the gating crkt from Stan's patent?I build it exacly  bit by bit and didnt work(it shows a square wave with 30% duty and when you turn the pot it increases the duty to 90% and then looses signal) It even does not gates the incoming signal it just show a square wave just like i said.It may be a foulty 74122 but i can verify the crkt with another one,because the one i have I barely got it,purchased all the way from England..so....I adapted Stans skematic on a 74123 and it does the same thing as 74122...I dont know what to think..Cheers!

Quote from adys15 on December 10th, 2012, 04:46 AM

I build the circuit today and it works,but you cannot change the freq with the weird pot conection,it outputs a 50% duty freq(see att).I changed the 47pf cap to a 33nf to be able to see the square shape,my pot was 10k.I dont know why the builder from that site says that to change freq you have to change either resistor(220k) or cap( 47f)(which is true) and then hooks the pot ''shorting'' the vcc with pin 9 and gnd.I made a modif and remowed the weird pot and placing a 10k res. between pin 9 and gnd.tThe 220k was replaced with 100k pot and now i can change the freq,but only from 1Kz-10Kz,if you want more range maybe you have to put a multyturn pot.

Genee I want to ask you have you build the gating crkt from Stan's patent?I build it exacly  bit by bit and didnt work(it shows a square wave with 30% duty and when you turn the pot it increases the duty to 90% and then looses signal) It even does not gates the incoming signal it just show a square wave just like i said.It may be a foulty 74122 but i can verify the crkt with another one,because the one i have I barely got it,purchased all the way from England..so....I adapted Stans skematic on a 74123 and it does the same thing as 74122...I dont know what to think..Cheers!

-capacitor is frequency range(lower=high frequency).potential meter is frequency changer(adjust frequency).

-about easy gating crkt.i have an idea.use cd4017 to select 10% ,20%,30%,...,90% duty cycle.but frequency must divided by 10.but i think no problem.

-but if need 1-9% duty how to make that?

**update**
- i was finished gate crkt,but not easy crkt.Anyway,i added files and picture about gate crkt that can make 1 or 2 % duty cycle(can make up to 9%duty ,same concept).you can open file with multisim 11.
- upgraded version 2 ,changed to And Gate(74ls08),3rd picture.
- if you need 95% duty cycle you just use 74ls14 or 74ls04 to invert from 5% to 95%.

thanks
geenee

i already tested 1 % duty cycle crkt(4046+2*4017+7408+7414) and use uc3710t(mosfet driver) to drive buz11(mosfet).

this crkt is fixed 1% duty cycle and can change frequency but frequecy divide by 100.source frequency has max frequency=1MHz.then frequency range of this crkt = about less than 10khz.

1.50uS range
2.50uS range
3.crkt
4.100uS range
5.100uS range
6.100uS range
7.100uS range but lower frequency

-see pictures from frequency 1% when drive mosfet will become to 3-4 %(because mosfet has gate capacitance).

-this circuit can place the 555 timer because when you adjust frequency by potential meter with 555 timer,frequency don't increase in linear and range is below 300khz.but with 4046,this increase in linear and max frequency is up to 1.5mhz.if you need fine tune,you should buy multi-turn potential meter.you don't need frequency range like 555 timer,by changing capacitor(1nF,10nF,100nF,220nF).all this like squrewave frequency generator.

thanks
geenee