Russ is going to love this one...   hehe  :D

Put water in a chamber and spin it until if fails apart into gas.  How does 13000 rpm in a 11 inch diameter cylinder producing 12.3 LpS (that's right, Liters per Second) sound to you?



To me?

Dangerous.

Found this while searching for Studennikov, a whole plethora of impossible machines :D

Quote from Lynx on October 21st, 2012, 12:41 AM

Found this while searching for Studennikov, a whole plethora of impossible machines :D

Come Come, have some faith...

Quote from Dog-One on October 20th, 2012, 11:28 PM

Russ is going to love this one...   hehe  :D

Put water in a chamber and spin it until if fails apart into gas.  How does 13000 rpm in a 11 inch diameter cylinder producing 12.3 LpS (that's right, Liters per Second) sound to you?



To me?

Dangerous.

So worth a try... we like dangerous don't we?

Has anyone have a practical setup for this yet..a google sketch?

Or...   If you don't want to spin water, you could always use water to spin a paddle wheel and make a closed looped system this way:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlinM1wAI5U

Seems people have things working all over the place--just have to look for it.

Quote from Dog-One on October 21st, 2012, 10:20 PM

Or...   If you don't want to spin water, you could always use water to spin a paddle wheel and make a closed looped system this way:


Seems people have things working all over the place--just have to look for it.

Nahhh that's bull...can't be that simple..(saw that one already, he's leaking too) but it reminds me of a video of a guy who used his tab to get gas out of water..and burnt it. It was just a small pipelike something..and placed on the tab...but weird to see it burn..yes could have been a hoax too...

A grinder has high rpm's no..its all a matter of balancing it very correct and something else..heat?

So many ways to energy freedom..can't keep track of them all..lol
 

METHOD FOR PRODUCING HYDROGEN AND OXIGEN FROM WATER
Viktor G. Ermakov, Patent date 27.04.1998
Mozirskaya str. 5
70, Perm, Russia, 614037

The invention is intended for power engineering and can be used for getting cheap and economy energy sources. In open ended space the over heated water vapor at temperature 500 550 degrees is produced. The over heated vapor is passed through high voltage electric field (6000V) and hydrogen and oxigen are produced. The method is simple, economy, fire safe, high capacity one.

Editorial comments: In this case there are no conductivity currents, so the input power is minimal, it is required only to create electric field which will provide the very effective operation of this system .



I searched for the patent but couldn't find it...:(

(it came from the file that Lynx attached..issue 17 )

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 24th, 2012, 01:44 AM

METHOD FOR PRODUCING HYDROGEN AND OXIGEN FROM WATER
Viktor G. Ermakov, Patent date 27.04.1998
Mozirskaya str. 5
70, Perm, Russia, 614037

The invention is intended for power engineering and can be used for getting cheap and economy energy sources. In open ended space the over heated water vapor at temperature 500 550 degrees is produced. The over heated vapor is passed through high voltage electric field (6000V) and hydrogen and oxigen are produced. The method is simple, economy, fire safe, high capacity one.

Editorial comments: In this case there are no conductivity currents, so the input power is minimal, it is required only to create electric field which will provide the very effective operation of this system .



I searched for the patent but couldn't find it...:(

(it came from the file that Lynx attached..issue 17 )

Yeah, I saw that aswell.
Surely the tech couldn't be all that difficult to replicate?
Closed boiler, capable of withstanding high pressure, heating element to boil the
water to 500 - 550 degrees in a closed controlled loop, the resulting vapor
(e.g steam) is then led away into an electric field of 6000 V DC and as a result
of this then HHO is created inbetween the plates (electrodes) that makes up the
field itself.
After that then the HHO is let out through a safety valve which also serves as a
pressure regulator in order to maintain the high pressure created in the boiling
process.
Or something like that :D

Quote from Lynx on October 24th, 2012, 09:04 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 24th, 2012, 01:44 AM

METHOD FOR PRODUCING HYDROGEN AND OXIGEN FROM WATER
Viktor G. Ermakov, Patent date 27.04.1998
Mozirskaya str. 5
70, Perm, Russia, 614037

The invention is intended for power engineering and can be used for getting cheap and economy energy sources. In open ended space the over heated water vapor at temperature 500 550 degrees is produced. The over heated vapor is passed through high voltage electric field (6000V) and hydrogen and oxigen are produced. The method is simple, economy, fire safe, high capacity one.

Editorial comments: In this case there are no conductivity currents, so the input power is minimal, it is required only to create electric field which will provide the very effective operation of this system .



I searched for the patent but couldn't find it...:(

(it came from the file that Lynx attached..issue 17 )

Yeah, I saw that aswell.
Surely the tech couldn't be all that difficult to replicate?
Closed boiler, capable of withstanding high pressure, heating element to boil the
water to 500 - 550 degrees in a closed controlled loop, the resulting vapor
(e.g steam) is then led away into an electric field of 6000 V DC and as a result
of this then HHO is created inbetween the plates (electrodes) that makes up the
field itself.
After that then the HHO is let out through a safety valve which also serves as a
pressure regulator in order to maintain the high pressure created in the boiling
process.
Or something like that :D

Yes, correct, and after a sparkarrestor, the mixture could be burned to see if it is HHO and at what amount.

If it is much, then this could be perfect for cars. After startup the engine's own heat can be used to preheat the water to save electricity.
How close should the plates of the electric field be to each other? You may not create sparks i guess...

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 25th, 2012, 12:12 AM

Quote from Lynx on October 24th, 2012, 09:04 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 24th, 2012, 01:44 AM

METHOD FOR PRODUCING HYDROGEN AND OXIGEN FROM WATER
Viktor G. Ermakov, Patent date 27.04.1998
Mozirskaya str. 5
70, Perm, Russia, 614037

The invention is intended for power engineering and can be used for getting cheap and economy energy sources. In open ended space the over heated water vapor at temperature 500 550 degrees is produced. The over heated vapor is passed through high voltage electric field (6000V) and hydrogen and oxigen are produced. The method is simple, economy, fire safe, high capacity one.

Editorial comments: In this case there are no conductivity currents, so the input power is minimal, it is required only to create electric field which will provide the very effective operation of this system .



I searched for the patent but couldn't find it...:(

(it came from the file that Lynx attached..issue 17 )

Yeah, I saw that aswell.
Surely the tech couldn't be all that difficult to replicate?
Closed boiler, capable of withstanding high pressure, heating element to boil the
water to 500 - 550 degrees in a closed controlled loop, the resulting vapor
(e.g steam) is then led away into an electric field of 6000 V DC and as a result
of this then HHO is created inbetween the plates (electrodes) that makes up the
field itself.
After that then the HHO is let out through a safety valve which also serves as a
pressure regulator in order to maintain the high pressure created in the boiling
process.
Or something like that :D

Yes, correct, and after a sparkarrestor, the mixture could be burned to see if it is HHO and at what amount.

If it is much, then this could be perfect for cars. After startup the engine's own heat can be used to preheat the water to save electricity.
How close should the plates of the electric field be to each other? You may not create sparks i guess...

Maybe make the gap adjustable using bolts?
The bolts could also serve as conductors for the HVDC to the plates.
After that then it's a lot of trial & error, but then what's new? :D

How high would the pressure go with 500-550 degrees C water?

And doesn't that give leakage at the adjustable bolts for the HV plates?

I've asked for a mechanic to try this invention but no replies yet. :(

see: http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=784&pid=9028#pid9028

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 31st, 2012, 03:46 PM

How high would the pressure go with 500-550 degrees C water?

Superheated steam like what is used on Navy ships...?   Now we are talking dangerous.  Why on earth does it need to be this hot?  Steam is steam right?  Wouldn't you get the same effect with any temperature of steam?  I suppose if you wanted to replicate this, start very small, less than an ounce of water to start with.  The ideal gas law (PV =nRT) should give you an idea of what type of pressures you will have to contain.  This calculator should help.

UPDATE
Did a little searching and in most cases, "dry stream" which is superheated leaves the final stage heater at the same pressure it came in with--water is not an ideal gas.

Now does anyone know how long the superheated steam needs to stay in the electric field?  Microseconds, milliseconds, seconds...?   It matters when you set your flow rate and steam production rate.  Another one of those engineering formulas where you start with what you want for your final product and work backwards to the source.

Quote from Dog-One on October 31st, 2012, 05:35 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on October 31st, 2012, 03:46 PM

How high would the pressure go with 500-550 degrees C water?

Superheated steam like what is used on Navy ships...?   Now we are talking dangerous.  Why on earth does it need to be this hot?  Steam is steam right?  Wouldn't you get the same effect with any temperature of steam?  I suppose if you wanted to replicate this, start very small, less than an ounce of water to start with.  The ideal gas law (PV =nRT) should give you an idea of what type of pressures you will have to contain.

Superheated steam is not much more dangerous than steam ... and yes Superheated steam may have some things about it witch may be desirable.

like the fact that its not a viable steam and can light paper on fire... :)

with safety in place it should be played with. i haven't gotten around to it yet... but i may make a video demo as its crazy and interesting stuff...

~Russ

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on October 31st, 2012, 09:34 PM

Superheated steam is not much more dangerous than steam ... and yes Superheated steam may have some things about it witch may be desirable.

like the fact that its not a viable steam and can light paper on fire... :)

with safety in place it should be played with. i haven't gotten around to it yet... but i may make a video demo as its crazy and interesting stuff...

Yes, I updated my post once I figured it out.  I just remember my days as a sailor using a two by four to search for steam leaks in the turbine room...  You couldn't see a superheated steam leak; you couldn't hear it either, but if you passed over it with the piece of wood, it would lop off that wood like butter.  I think on ship the superheated steam ran at a pressure of around 1500 psi and would lay waste to stainless steel in a matter of hours if a leak started and wasn't fixed ricky-tick.

Quote from Dog-One on October 31st, 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on October 31st, 2012, 09:34 PM

Superheated steam is not much more dangerous than steam ... and yes Superheated steam may have some things about it witch may be desirable.

like the fact that its not a viable steam and can light paper on fire... :)

with safety in place it should be played with. i haven't gotten around to it yet... but i may make a video demo as its crazy and interesting stuff...

Yes, I updated my post once I figured it out.  I just remember my days as a sailor using a two by four to search for steam leaks in the turbine room...  You couldn't see a superheated steam leak; you couldn't hear it either, but if you passed over it with the piece of wood, it would lop off that wood like butter.  I think on ship the superheated steam ran at a pressure of around 1500 psi and would lay waste to stainless steel in a matter of hours if a leak started and wasn't fixed ricky-tick.

:) cool stuff! well kinda !lol

Quote from Dog-One on October 31st, 2012, 05:35 PM

Now does anyone know how long the superheated steam needs to stay in the electric field?  Microseconds, milliseconds, seconds...?   It matters when you set your flow rate and steam production rate.  Another one of those engineering formulas where you start with what you want for your final product and work backwards to the source.

We can easily make a long stretched field, because it doesn't uses much current. It just needs the potential difference between the plates. Even using an old drycell or meyertube could do. Plus the flowrate can be adjusted by the endvalve. (if that one is placed after the HV field) So we can keep it in between the plates as long as needed....
(n.b. With an extra safety release..(and maybe flamecontrol) because otherwise the pressure in between the hv would keep also the steam in the cylinder in place and build up too much pressure)

Quote from Dog-One on October 31st, 2012, 05:35 PM

UPDATE
Did a little searching and in most cases, "dry stream" which is superheated leaves the final stage heater at the same pressure it came in with--water is not an ideal gas.

What does that mean?
If i have a iron cylinder with a bottom of water and a pressure valve on top.
I put a flame under it, it heats up.
At what pressure should i set the top valve to release... to know that the steam has reached between 500 and 550 degrees C?

Knowing that and having done that i only need to divert the steam in between the electric field etc.

Is there a way to make an adjustable pressure valve? If so then one could sqeeze that till the temperature measurements of the escaping steam say its in between 500 and 550 C...easy?

Hmm my oven meter goes till 350..

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 1st, 2012, 03:23 AM

What does that mean?
If i have a iron cylinder with a bottom of water and a pressure valve on top.
I put a flame under it, it heats up.
At what pressure should i set the top valve to release... to know that the steam has reached between 500 and 550 degrees C?

Knowing that and having done that i only need to divert the steam in between the electric field etc.

Is there a way to make an adjustable pressure valve? If so then one could sqeeze that till the temperature measurements of the escaping steam say its in between 500 and 550 C...easy?

Hmm my oven meter goes till 350..

No, no.  Don't try it that way.  You need at least two stages:  A boiler that controls steam production and then a superheater to get the steam temperature up to where you want it.  Dry steam means there are no water droplets floating around in the gas.  If you try to get do everything in a single stage you will get a flash with massive pressure build up because even dripping liquid water into a single stage running at 500 degrees C will...    It's a massive volume increase.  Don't do it.  Use two controlled stages.  A pressure cooker with controlled temperature should work fine for your boiler stage one.  Not sure what you use for stage two, probably just pipes (heat exchanger) inside some other furnace.

So with those two stages add two more:  Stage three the HV grid and stage four your condenser/chiller.  If this works, you shouldn't get any distilled water coming out the final stage.  I guess add a flashback suppressor at the very end and see if you have some sort of gas that burns.

I would recommend turning off the HV grid initially and see what rate of condensate you get then use that for a baseline comparison when you have the HV grid active.  If there is a difference between HV and no HV, you'll know it is working.

Quote from Dog-One on November 1st, 2012, 06:18 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 1st, 2012, 03:23 AM

What does that mean?
If i have a iron cylinder with a bottom of water and a pressure valve on top.
I put a flame under it, it heats up.
At what pressure should i set the top valve to release... to know that the steam has reached between 500 and 550 degrees C?

Knowing that and having done that i only need to divert the steam in between the electric field etc.

Is there a way to make an adjustable pressure valve? If so then one could sqeeze that till the temperature measurements of the escaping steam say its in between 500 and 550 C...easy?

Hmm my oven meter goes till 350..

No, no.  Don't try it that way.  You need at least two stages:  A boiler that controls steam production and then a superheater to get the steam temperature up to where you want it.  Dry steam means there are no water droplets floating around in the gas.  If you try to get do everything in a single stage you will get a flash with massive pressure build up because even dripping liquid water into a single stage running at 500 degrees C will...    It's a massive volume increase.  Don't do it.  Use two controlled stages.  A pressure cooker with controlled temperature should work fine for your boiler stage one.  Not sure what you use for stage two, probably just pipes (heat exchanger) inside some other furnace.

So with those two stages add two more:  Stage three the HV grid and stage four your condenser/chiller.  If this works, you shouldn't get any distilled water coming out the final stage.  I guess add a flashback suppressor at the very end and see if you have some sort of gas that burns.

I would recommend turning off the HV grid initially and see what rate of condensate you get then use that for a baseline comparison when you have the HV grid active.  If there is a difference between HV and no HV, you'll know it is working.

There's one thing about this I'm curious of, which is how much effect you have to
put in the heating process, + the amount of electric effect needed in the HV
electrolyzing process, compared to how much effect you'd get from the actual
burning (or explosion) of the hydrogen produced here?

Quote from Lynx on November 1st, 2012, 11:42 AM

There's one thing about this I'm curious of, which is how much effect you have to
put in the heating process, + the amount of electric effect needed in the HV
electrolyzing process, compared to how much effect you'd get from the actual
burning (or explosion) of the hydrogen produced here?

I thought the same thing.  I suppose you'll pay for it up front in the boiler.  If you can insulate things real well, you shouldn't pay much in the superheater or the high voltage grid.  I tend to have my doubts that you would get enough gas to turn around and switch off the electric or natural gas heater for the boiler and close-loop once gas production starts, but it is an interesting theory to contemplate.  Until someone does a good build and proves what the COP is, we can only guess for now.  Has anyone taken a typical six quart pressure cooker and measured simple liters per minute steam production coming out of the pressure port at the top?  That would tell you approximately what max flow might look like.

Quote from Dog-One on November 1st, 2012, 04:47 PM

Quote from Lynx on November 1st, 2012, 11:42 AM

There's one thing about this I'm curious of, which is how much effect you have to
put in the heating process, + the amount of electric effect needed in the HV
electrolyzing process, compared to how much effect you'd get from the actual
burning (or explosion) of the hydrogen produced here?

I thought the same thing.  I suppose you'll pay for it up front in the boiler.  If you can insulate things real well, you shouldn't pay much in the superheater or the high voltage grid.  I tend to have my doubts that you would get enough gas to turn around and switch off the electric or natural gas heater for the boiler and close-loop once gas production starts, but it is an interesting theory to contemplate.  Until someone does a good build and proves what the COP is, we can only guess for now.  Has anyone taken a typical six quart pressure cooker and measured simple liters per minute steam production coming out of the pressure port at the top?  That would tell you approximately what max flow might look like.

Hmm well, we can speculate or we can (let it be) build.
Or we can again search for the patent and see what the inventor says. I searched at different patent sites for it but had no luck.

I also (last week) mailed zeropointenergy if he would have interest in it.. to put it up for donations to open source it...no reply yet, and looking through his stuff he is mainly into rotating magnets and coils...:(  
And on this forum at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=784
there has been no replies..

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 2nd, 2012, 03:04 AM

Quote from Dog-One on November 1st, 2012, 04:47 PM

Quote from Lynx on November 1st, 2012, 11:42 AM

There's one thing about this I'm curious of..............

I thought the same thing.........

Hmm well, we can speculate or we can (let it be) build.......................And on this forum at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=784
there has been no replies..

Which means that you'd rather see someone else build this thing than yourself?
How come?

Quote from Lynx on November 2nd, 2012, 04:32 AM

Quote from FaradayEZ on November 2nd, 2012, 03:04 AM

Quote from Dog-One on November 1st, 2012, 04:47 PM

Quote from Lynx on November 1st, 2012, 11:42 AM

There's one thing about this I'm curious of..............

I thought the same thing.........

Hmm well, we can speculate or we can (let it be) build.......................And on this forum at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=784
there has been no replies..

Which means that you'd rather see someone else build this thing than yourself?
How come?

I'm not a mechanic, have no shet/shop..and getting it open sourced is the best goal achievable. Plus with this thing, one needs to know how to do this in a safe way.

And with this one i don't trust myself ;)

Quote from Dog-One on November 1st, 2012, 06:18 AM

Dry steam means there are no water droplets floating around in the gas.

So all the H2O has separated...into loose 2H+ and loose O- ions. So then the next thing would be to make that into H2 and O2.
2H+ needs to gain electrons
and 2 O- needs to loose 2 electrons

The electric field between the plates could suffice this.?

Quote

So with those two stages add two more:  Stage three the HV grid and stage four your condenser/chiller.  If this works, you shouldn't get any distilled water coming out the final stage.

Why do you need to condense it? It is a gas and a liquid gas needs some pressure above it no?  
But it would also be possible to separate the two gases, with some adjustment in the setup.

The question of if it is difficult to make gases to liquids comes also from the thought of, if Russ could use his premix to get that separated into flasks like Joseph Papp had at the canon.

Its a shame that these two ways of producing HHO just get stranded here.

Rotating way and Steam-HV way.

Ok, we can't get to the patents, but what can we do?

Are there cheap, safe, small ways to get to any proof of concept?

If not..should we promote this at HHO producing forums? I mean..what to do..i hate it to sit on potential important knowledge and not come up with any utilization.

Then i think; what use am i to better this world? If the bar is: can i do this myself..then nothing changes...

Sorry to bother others with this frustration, but maybe you feel this sometimes too.

 I heard there was a gravitational Electrolysis unit and company any find the patent or applications ?

there must be a video out there some where?

Dan