I'm a huge fan of this design http://www.engineair.com.au/images/stories/pt5anim.gif on http://www.engineair.com.au .  (probably have to have more gap on the low side to have a sufficient 1atm of gasses... )  Would think you could just put [sparkers] in all sections and keep a closed system?  There's a certain rate that the post-expand collapse would happen would think you could get a very steady system if it were timed so that the time the rotor is on a 'compression' cycle, it's actually the side of the collapse to help pull the rotor to next firing phase.  ... hmm no probably this design has lots of issues.

A more radical idea, as a tesla turbine... Tesla also had that one way valve that was just pieces folded back on itself? maybe a design that had that printed radially... like each chamber would be a long tube from the outside to the inside, and ignition in one or more points would cause the gas to expand, but one way would be blocked, which would cause a push like a rocket? where one end is blocked and the other side expands?

Then the collapsing effect ... does the motionless valve work with a vacuum?  or if you apply a vacuum to both sides you it wouldn't impede flow?

My friend wants to send you some spark plugs from... http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html  their plugs have claims that they will ignite water if misted fine enough... maybe to combine the spark gap and spark plugs?  (maybe your new ignition system would just drive the plugs which are cheap instead of the whole ignition/plugs combination)

I should find somewhere to refresh my memory on what sort of power is applied to the gap and plugs and where the CB radio comes in....

And in the recent videos from bob rohner; what is the capacitor attached to?  I thought it didn't have a coil... is it really just attached to the spark gap?   Oh... well I guess there's more charge there than jumps the gap, and the remainder drives an electric engine in the background...

Here is some work on the tesla valve in the 3D printables area:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=272

Floatyboaty drew up a 3D valve like you are describing.  It hasn't been test printed as far as I know.

Nate

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My friend wants to send you some spark plugs from... http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html

Please send me a message if you want to pursue this.

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I should find somewhere to refresh my memory on what sort of power is applied to the gap and plugs and where the CB radio comes in....

CB comes in in the help of ionizing the gasses.

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And in the recent videos from bob rohner; what is the capacitor attached to?  I thought it didn't have a coil... is it really just attached to the spark gap?   Oh... well I guess there's more charge there than jumps the gap, and the remainder drives an electric engine in the background...

yes. the spark ionizes the "air" and then the cap will discharge across the path way of ionized air.

Please see this thread if your looking for more info:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=659


thanks!

~Russ

Hi Gang , While we're tossing this noble gas thing around I want to share a couple things have heard. I have talked serveral hours with Cecal Baumgartener who was theTRW engineer at the Papp cannon in the dessert and was also at the 1968 engine that blow up and killed one person and hurt others . He told me that Papp only used  10 cc's of the gas in the cannon AND ONLY USED  3 CC'S OF GAS IN THE VOLVO ENGINE .That it was a tungusten coil inside the cannon that was hooked up to a gen set for ignition. I beleive he is telling the truth and while he is 93  and this is over 40 years ago his mind is still very sharp.The research goes on  Ed Hemphill

Maybe Dr.Dr.John with all his naivity stumbled onto the gasshrinking key to success that is needed to get the papp engine the right clustered mix.

What i see in this, are some tests we can perform.

Needed:
a coil, weired like papp did it.
a plastic tube (so the coil can have a magnetic effect on the content of the cylinder)
ways to heat the coil with electricity
and or ways to shortcircuit the coil to see if it builds up heat (because grounding the coil didn't make it cooler, i presume there was a shortcircuit going on and of)

Maybe the gas gives of electrons when shrinking into clusters. As it needs less electrons cause it is packed more sufficiently. Maybe those electrons heated up the coil also.

The aim is to find a way to pretreat the pappmix, that can have some new strange outcomes, to make it more powerful. As we know papp only used 10cc in his canon, it must have been something new. And not much research is done on the potential of these clusters.

So lets make a couple of cc's of this clustered mix and ignite it to find its potential.


If it is strong, then the question becomes: how to bring it back to cluster-state fast enough for an engine.

Quote from FaradayEZ on April 8th, 2013, 01:11 AM

If it is strong, then the question becomes: how to bring it back to cluster-state fast enough for an engine.

For what it is worth, my feeling is that if gas clusters are involved, they (once formed) are not completely disassociated during the expansion process.  If they were completely disassociated, then, there would and should be quite the concern of getting them rebuilt fast enough to run an engine.  Especially if forming the initial clusters took hours or even days to build.

So imagine (only speculation on my part) that the initial clusters are quite large, and the expansion process only liberates a small percentage of atoms from the large clusters, lets say 10 to maybe 40% or so.  The remaining clusters regrow when the gases are allowed to expand (the piston moves down).  It is this partial disassociation and subsequent regrowth that occurs on each cycle.

Papp used 3 or 4 impulses per down stroke.  If clusters are involved, they may want to re-cluster so readily that they require several pokes to keep them moving along.  Hit the clusters with an impulse that moves beyond the stable region (10-40% in this example), then you get an explosion...

kcd

Quote from k c dias on April 8th, 2013, 02:06 PM

Quote from FaradayEZ on April 8th, 2013, 01:11 AM

If it is strong, then the question becomes: how to bring it back to cluster-state fast enough for an engine.

For what it is worth, my feeling is that if gas clusters are involved, they (once formed) are not completely disassociated during the expansion process.  If they were completely disassociated, then, there would and should be quite the concern of getting them rebuilt fast enough to run an engine.  Especially if forming the initial clusters took hours or even days to build.

So imagine (only speculation on my part) that the initial clusters are quite large, and the expansion process only liberates a small percentage of atoms from the large clusters, lets say 10 to maybe 40% or so.  The remaining clusters regrow when the gases are allowed to expand (the piston moves down).  It is this partial disassociation and subsequent regrowth that occurs on each cycle.

Papp used 3 or 4 impulses per down stroke.  If clusters are involved, they may want to re-cluster so readily that they require several pokes to keep them moving along.  Hit the clusters with an impulse that moves beyond the stable region (10-40% in this example), then you get an explosion...

kcd

Sounds reasonable. And if we put something electrically positive nearby that will suck the electrons harder then the gasatoms like to stay alone..then we have a working process which also explains the missing heat and explains the feedbackcurrent. Next thing it may explain is the power if we test on a clustered mix.

I think the amount of de-clustering depends on the amount of electrons we bombard into the chamber by the cap discharge.

So its electricity in a 1 to 1 way converting into expansion, movement, mechanical labour.

That we don't have a normal gas, we already see because of the plasma effect. What's that about, it even isn't a normal plasma either!! No heat transfer, no gamma, not nucleair...so the atoms in the gas are not out of sinc, but in another way they are.

In the clustering, the neighbouring atoms take part in dealing with enough electron coverage. Some atoms 2 rows further, may give the first row some shielding at a higher orbit then the gas normally has them. So if it has abundance in higher levels it won't scream so hard about sharing on lower levels. Any how, the cluster is efficient with its electrons.

Now all of a sudden there's overflow of electrons, and not nicely, they brake into the clusters, leaving pieces that now feel uneasy, unstable and with that give off light, whilst grabbing the electrons, the gas becomes more stable and leaves the plasma like condition.

So how can it then collapse again? Maybe its an overshooting oneself reaction. Look at what coils and magnetisme do, they always produce a counter reaction to their own birth. And in the proportions we see at the popper.

To make the collapse stronger and thus faster, i suggest we give the cylinder a positive mantel, like with a capacitor. Use the electric force to suck out the electrons.

A small chemical lab tube, wired with copper and DC + potential, connected to a balance with on the other side a weight, would be able to show if the gas would get heavier.

(Of course this gas then has to be popped and measured against the 'normal')






What's radiation? (laymen view)

Most compounds, elements, atoms have it nicely together. With their number of protons and neutrons they can have an electron shield that keeps the core happy.

If the core is not happy, like with radioactive materials, the normal electron levels cannot shield it completely at all times.

The core can radiate (this instability) in different ways, alpha, gamma, x-ray and maybe more. Like it builds up some aggitation and then gives of a burst, a scream about wanting to get harmony.

==============

If this could be the case then how about the gasclusters? Why should they radiate light when popped with some electricity?

We have to do some exact science still, but i see a lot of similarities.

One test could be, try to pop gases that have no natural clusters, or try to pop gasses that have a surplus of ions? have been declustered? (keeping in mind the use of + and - everywhere)

If it reacts less, wont pop, then clusters stay candidate?