Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue

Earl

Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« on December 6th, 2019, 10:08 AM »Last edited on December 6th, 2019, 10:11 AM
Built holder for boards from 2 shelf boards as laying them out on table was taking to much room.  Wiring was mostly to route power to each board. I left enough slack in wires so I could pull each board out to check it with a scope.  I was glad I did as I start to do system tests to see if everything was still working, I found I had moved pot settings and needed to reset them to match setting from my initial testing.  The scope shots in my test reports were very helpful in doing this.

Hopefully with this setup I can just connect the coils to connection strip on the end and continue testing.  One thing I do not like is the 2n3055 mounted on the leg make that whole leg to be at +12 DC.  I need to do something about that.  I am still working though checking things, but I did find another issue I though I would report.  I started on the analog side and was working my way though resetting the pots and I am getting the results I expected after making the necessary adjustments until I got to the finally output to the primary coil.  Instead of the analog wave train I expect I kept getting a flatline voltage.  This is from the 2N3005 (Q4 in K9 the Voltage Amplitude Control circuit).

I retraced the signal through the circuit, and everything matched until I got the final output instead of analog wave train, I got a flatline voltage. In my initial testing I did not have the output from the emitter of the 2n3005 connected to the switch and the last 1uF capacitor.  The capacitor is the cause of the flatline.  Remove it and system works.  With it in you can still move the voltage level up and down but AM wave is gone.  It does not make sense to have gone to all the work of creating the AM signal then remove it before sending it to primary coil.

It is possible this capacitor was intended to smooth out the noise on the AM wave as it has a lot of noise, however if this is the intended purpose 1uF is the wrong value.  However, if you want to smooth out noise on a 12-volt source then it would do that.

I am continuing to check the other boards that feed the 5KHZ side and have started to gather some of the material I need to make coils.  Looks like a should find the ferrite core first so I know what size and shape to make coils and bobbins. I know the dimensions for the areas for the wire but need to know size of hole inside bobbins.

Pictures below.  Front and back of finished boards mounted power comes in on left through a 12-volt connecter and there 2 LM317s one for 10v and on for 5v that feed bus bars on back.  Common ground through out system.  Boards powered from the bus bars.  Bus bar on the right will connect to primary and feedback coils.

The scope shots show the output of the 2n3005 with the one with capacitor in circuit and one with it removed.   This is the signal going to one side of primary coil.  The yellow trace is the 50Hz signal input used to create AM wave.  I have it on screen to provide a good sync for the scope.


Gunther Rattay

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #2, on December 12th, 2019, 10:07 AM »Last edited on December 12th, 2019, 10:10 AM
Whenever we fiddle around with analog signals adjustments with expertise is mandatory. We have to know the output signal  shape and guide respective adjustment thru the signal line. We are done when signal works in all permitted variable condtions.

Gunther Rattay

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #3, on December 12th, 2019, 10:09 AM »
Analog stuff was en vogue long before digital solutions arouse. Today analog soluions are almost obsolete ...

Earl

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #4, on December 13th, 2019, 05:16 AM »
I agree and I am not an expert.  Main reason I built Stan's circuits is to try to find out what that signal shape should look like.  Also I had several questions about how he did things.  Where was gate generated?. How did he create the AM wave and what did it look like?  Where did he created the  high frequency pulse train? How did he merger them all together.  Building his circuits and testing them has answered most these questions though with all the adjustments in the system I am still not sure what the exact signal should look like.  Still plan to do more testing to learn more.

I sure Stan did not start with these circuits but built them base on other experiments and knew what wave shape he wanted them to output. He used parts that were available at the time.

I plan to take a good look at work Nav did on AM signals and chokes to understand that part of system much better.  See his recent post on AM wave testing.

My goal is mainly to understand and to give me something to do that I am interested in.  It has done that so far.

Earl

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #5, on December 18th, 2019, 03:18 PM »
Continued testing with check the High frequency side.  Verified boards are working and then checked inputs to both sides of primary coil.  Channel 1 Yellow is from Cell Driver K4 and Channel 2 Blue is from Voltage Amplitude Control K9 on Analog side.  Both scope probes are hooked up prior to diodes as I wanted to see input to primary coil.  At this point I am just using a 10-ohm resistor to provide a resistive load.  The first picture shows this test setup.  As there is are no coils in the system, I have hooked the output of K21 (G) back to what would be the input (H) to the board from resonance sensing pickup coil and Pulse Indicator Circuit K14 (black jumper in picture).

I took three pictures of the signals with different gate settings.  Large gate, 50% gate and small gate.  Gate size was set using pot on Gated Pulse Freq. Generator (3).
Last picture show the output when the Switch on the Voltage Amplitude Control board (K9) is set to “OFF”
I would not pay to much attention to frequency listed as the scope locks on the gate pulse to determine frequency.
It should also be noted that each of the signals is refenced to same system ground point.

Earl

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #6, on December 18th, 2019, 03:25 PM »Last edited on December 18th, 2019, 03:27 PM
After writing this and looking at screen shots the 2 signals look the same just at different levels.  I begin to wonder if something had happened to analog signal. So, I disconnected it and went back and rechecked output of board using setup I had used to check analog path.  I set scope for CH1 yellow to be 50Hz reference from K2 CH2 blue to be analog signal which was the triangle wave train, so it was working.  I then hooked it back to output strip but left CH1 hooked to 50Hz reference and got the following signals.  I again varied gate size on K3.  Switching off analog gave flat line.  This was the analog signal I expected to see.  Did not expect pulses on top but was glad to see them.   But they are there as all inputs to primary coil are hooked up including diodes. I am beginning to see why people say scope shots do not make a lot of sense.  Would not have seen the analog wave in this form if I had not changed scope sync reference.   Note:  I used same ground reference for all of these screen shots.

Earl

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #7, on December 19th, 2019, 12:16 PM »
As using a separate sync source gave me such a good view of the analog signal, I decided to look at the pulse stream the same way.  I went back to K2 and tried all four switch settings on one of the other switches, the 500Hz output gave me the best view of the shape of the pulses.  Picture was taken at about 50% gate setting.  You can also see effect of gate changes in this view.  This was taken just before diode going into Primary coil like the other pictures above.

At this point I am not sure what the output modulation frequency is as the gate messes up that reading on my scope.  I will need to go through K21 again and check center frequency I am sure it was changed when I mounted board and I have not yet tried to reset it.  In this testing I was check that all the boards worked together, and primary goal was to see what signals looked like at input to primary transformer. I think I did that.


Earl

Re: Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue
« Reply #9, on January 5th, 2020, 04:26 PM »
I tried to set the center of the CD4046B to 5khz.  This is kind of a pain to do with the gate active as scope syncs on the signal with gate so you cannot see the true frequency.  To do this I bypassed the circuit that raises the gate level to 12-volt levels.  This leaves the gate signal present, but it never goes high so gate in not present in signal.  (See report on K21 for more detail on this).  I may put a switch on the board that has the circuit to raise it gate level so I can select the bypass mode so I can set center level.

Once I set the gate level low, I used the Manual Freq. Adjust Pot on K22 (Resonant Scanning Circuit) and the Freq. Adjust Pot on K21 (Phase Lock Circuit) to set center frequency on CD4046B to 5khz.  You must set the pot on K22 to a high enough level to make adjustment to pot on K21, so you set center level this high.  I checked output of pin 4 of the CD4046B to do this.   While I was at it, I also verified that the levels out into switch from the divide by 10 chips where correct and they were.  So, I have 5khz, 500hz, 50hz and 5hz out of the switch.

My goal was to capture the input to primary coils as a known 5khz center.  I have not yet built primary and secondary coils, but I do have a 1 to 1 60hz isolation transformer so I hooked that up across the 10-ohm resistor and diode so I could see signal out of primary and secondary coils.

The screen pictures below show signal with pot setting above and gate active at 50% duty cycle.
Signal across 10-ohm resistor alone
Signal across 10-ohm resistor with transformer connected
Signal output from transformer
Signal output form transformer showing frequency sweep every 8 seconds.  As I mentioned in K21 report this sweep is present not sure why.

Have been thinking about this for a while and wonder if it is from way the sweep signal in K21 is setup (see K21 report for details).  The K21 signal looks like a piece of a triangle wave just one period with a flat line in between each period. Yet the data sheet for CD4046B shows this input to be a triangle wave.  It is possible that the valves for components controlling the 555 timer on K21 are incorrect as this sets the timing of the pulse that creates the sweep wave.
Most likely will look at this some more as I had not looked at K21 input requirements when I did original K22 to testing.

Next step is to build and test some coils.  Have already started collecting parts but do not have much experience with this.