Does electricity really exist ?

PeakPositive

Does electricity really exist ?
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Does electricity really exist ?

Keep in mind I’m JUST asking the question does electricity really exist or is it all JUST magnetism?

1. My first reason is if electricity is real then why can we not take (plus + voltage) from (battery A) and the (minus – voltage) of (battery B) to run something or register on a voltmeter ?

2. The quarks in a proton has (+2/3) and (–1/3) charge and this causes (+1/3) and (–1/3) to cancel each other leaving a net charge of (+1/3). The quarks in a neutron has (-2/3) and (+1/3) charge and this causes (+1/3) and (–1/3) to cancel each other leaving net charge of (-1/3). So in the nucleus protons and neutrons can sit side by side because of attraction.

3. The (- charge) of the electron is attracted to the nucleus because of the (+) proton but is stopped from  crashing into the nucleus because of the (- charge) of the neutron.

4. Now replace the (+) and (-) charge with (north) and (south) poles of magnetism this seems a better fit then using electric charge.                 

5. Consider a voltmeter it is not really measuring electricity it is measuring magnetism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltmeter

6. Place a compass on an AA battery and the N and S line up with plus and minus of the battery. Proving a battery contains magnetism.

7. Place a compass on long single wire and touch ends to a battery, compass is deflected. So is electricity flowing in the wire or is magnetism ?

8. Take a large coil of wire and pass a magnet in the center. It is magnetism that is transferred to the coil not electricity. Should we believe the copper wire contains an endless supply of (+ & -) electricity ?

9. The best I can think of electricity it is the movement of magnetism.

10. We can take the north of a magnet and south of a (different) magnet to create electricity but as stated in (# 1 above) we can not take (+) and (-) from two (different) batteries to do anything. 


That should be enough to get the conversation started on electricity and magnetism! Please feel free to add any thoughts. And yes I know it is called Electromagnetism :)


Lynx

Re: Does electricity really exist ?
« Reply #1,  »
Ok, I'll bite.

1) As long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother then yes, you will not be able to run something or to get voltage to register on a voltmeter. The electric circuit needs to be closed in order for that to happen.

2) Oh.

3) Uhu.

4) I don't get it.

5) No, it measures Volts. What makes the needle move however is electromagnetism, so the higher the voltage = the higher the current running through the electromagnetic coil = the higher the torque from the electromagnet versus the spring holding it back, hence the needle rotates a little further as compared to a lesser voltage.

6) If so, are you able to lift up paper clips using the battery as a permanent magnet without running any current through it?

7) It's an electric current made out of electrons.

8 ) What makes you say that?

9) Again, an electric current consists of electrons moving.

10) As I said, as long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother (I.E they're not physically connected to eachother, by for example using electrically conductive wires) then there can't be any electric current running between the two either as it would be an open circuit.

PeakPositive

Re: Does electricity really exist ?
« Reply #2,  »
Thanks Lynx for joining in.

Ok, I'll bite.

1) As long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother then yes, you will not be able to run something or to get voltage to register on a voltmeter. The electric circuit needs to be closed in order for that to happen.

 yes agreed,  when we look at it I think we can agree two metal plates separated by an electrolyte. This causes protons to migrate to the cathode (+) and electrons to migrate to the anode (-) and if we connect a wire to these two plates then electrons flow in/on the wire from anode to cathode.
  But what is the mechanism that causes the electron to flow?
 If we consider the cathode is in fact a magnetic north pole and the anode is a south pole then the mechanism is the attraction of magnetism.
 Take it one step farther and now what is considered electric current is instead magnetism flowing in/on the wire.     
 

2) Oh.

3) Uhu.

4) I don't get it.

> yes if you don’t understand me in (2 &3) then you may not understand (4)

5) No, it measures Volts. What makes the needle move however is electromagnetism, so the higher the voltage = the higher the current running through the electromagnetic coil = the higher the torque from the electromagnet versus the spring holding it back, hence the needle rotates a little further as compared to a lesser voltage.

> see you have to say (electromagnetism) how about if we call it a magnetic field moving between the north magnet and south magnet ?

6) If so, are you able to lift up paper clips using the battery as a permanent magnet without running any current through it?

> please don’t confuse magnetic strength with the fact the battery has a magnetic field. Do the compass test.

7) It's an electric current made out of electrons.

> I believe the current thinking is an electron is not like a moon orbiting around a planet it is more like a cloud that surrounds the nucleus.( please check me on this) 

8 ) What makes you say that?

9) Again, an electric current consists of electrons moving.

> What I’m theoretical proposing is not electricity flowing but magnetism.

10) As I said, as long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother (I.E they're not physically connected to eachother, by for example using electrically conductive wires) then there can't be any electric current running between the two either as it would be an open circuit.

 consider my reply to your answer in (1) what is interesting is you are implying electricity is a dipole just like a magnet. But to me two magnets (each a dipole) can be separated and still create what is called electricity but two batteries can not be separated and still create electricity.

Please understand what I’m saying is theoretical to cause some deeper thinking about electricity and magnetism.

Thanks again

Lynx

Re: Does electricity really exist ?
« Reply #3,  »Last edited
Quote from PeakPositive on May 22nd, 12:14 AM
Thanks Lynx for joining in.

Ok, I'll bite.

1) As long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother then yes, you will not be able to run something or to get voltage to register on a voltmeter. The electric circuit needs to be closed in order for that to happen.

 yes agreed,  when we look at it I think we can agree two metal plates separated by an electrolyte. This causes protons to migrate to the cathode (+) and electrons to migrate to the anode (-) and if we connect a wire to these two plates then electrons flow in/on the wire from anode to cathode.
  But what is the mechanism that causes the electron to flow?
 If we consider the cathode is in fact a magnetic north pole and the anode is a south pole then the mechanism is the attraction of magnetism.
 Take it one step farther and now what is considered electric current is instead magnetism flowing in/on the wire.     
 

2) Oh.

3) Uhu.

4) I don't get it.

> yes if you don’t understand me in (2 &3) then you may not understand (4)

5) No, it measures Volts. What makes the needle move however is electromagnetism, so the higher the voltage = the higher the current running through the electromagnetic coil = the higher the torque from the electromagnet versus the spring holding it back, hence the needle rotates a little further as compared to a lesser voltage.

> see you have to say (electromagnetism) how about if we call it a magnetic field moving between the north magnet and south magnet ?

6) If so, are you able to lift up paper clips using the battery as a permanent magnet without running any current through it?

> please don’t confuse magnetic strength with the fact the battery has a magnetic field. Do the compass test.

7) It's an electric current made out of electrons.

> I believe the current thinking is an electron is not like a moon orbiting around a planet it is more like a cloud that surrounds the nucleus.( please check me on this) 

8 ) What makes you say that?

9) Again, an electric current consists of electrons moving.

> What I’m theoretical proposing is not electricity flowing but magnetism.

10) As I said, as long as the batteries are galvanically decoupled from eachother (I.E they're not physically connected to eachother, by for example using electrically conductive wires) then there can't be any electric current running between the two either as it would be an open circuit.

 consider my reply to your answer in (1) what is interesting is you are implying electricity is a dipole just like a magnet. But to me two magnets (each a dipole) can be separated and still create what is called electricity but two batteries can not be separated and still create electricity.

Please understand what I’m saying is theoretical to cause some deeper thinking about electricity and magnetism.

Thanks again
1) No, it's electrons flowing in the wires.
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/battery-technology/how-do-lead-acid-batteries-work-technology.php

5) Call it what you will, what makes the needle move is electromagnetism generated by current going through the electromagnet turnning the needle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltmeter

6) That didn't answer my question. Would you able to lift up paper clips using the battery as a permanent magnet without running any current through it?

7) Don't understand what you mean.

9) So you say. However, an electric current is non the less made out of electrons moving through, say a copper wire.

10) Thats an extremely out of context statement, it bears no validity.

Matt Watts

Re: Does electricity really exist ?
« Reply #4,  »
I don't have any problem imagining electric and magnetic circuits.  I also don't see a problem with dielectricity being something that operates at 90 degree angles to magnetism.  It also seems totally reasonable electricity is just a combination of both dielectricity and magnetism.  This is what Steinmetz suggested and it tends to make sense to me.

Where things get complicated to me is when you have these two fields, how do they interact with matter, specifically at the sub-atomic level?  How do they navigate a conductive atom versus an insulator?  Why do they see Bismuth differently than the see Iron?

PeakPositive

Re: Does electricity really exist ?
« Reply #5,  »
Lets be clear the voltmeter from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltmeter has a coil of wire rotating between a north magnet on one side and a south magnet on the other. The magnetism from the ends of the coil reacts with the two magnets on each side. The voltmeter is indeed showing the magnetism created by the coil it may not be showing the electricity in the coil. The question is what is creating the magnetism?

Some will argue it is electricity that is creating the magnetism. I’m questioning could it be magnetism that is creating the coil magnet? 
 Hans Christian Oersted showed in 1820 that magnetism flows in a wire.   

For the coil it could be the magnetism in turn 1 bumps into the magnetism of turn 2 and they in turn bump into the magnetism of turn 3 and so on and so on and so on. All this bumping of magnetic fields turn the coil into a kind of magnetic amplifier to come out the ends of the coil.

So I think it reasonable to ask is it electricity flowing in a wire of the coil or is just the magnetism flowing that is causing the coil to become an even bigger magnet.

Thanks to XX for answering my question (what is the mechanism that causes the electrons to flow from a battery? ) replying it is the (electrolyte) that is turning the pump that is causing the electrons to flow.

Now I have to work on what is the electrolyte doing? Is it separating electric charge plus and minus or it separating north and south magnetic fields.