I have not been able to find what frequencies Stanley was using as input to the VIC so decide to analyze the circuit diagram for the Main Frequency Generator Board.  It's a simple circuit but my electrical engineering skill are very rusty and finding the data sheets and an use article with what information I needed was not very straight forward.  But I think I have figured it out.  I wrote the attached document to describe how I think it works.  Short answer is 4 frequencies are generated on this board.
Left to right from the 555 through each of the 7490 chips the frequency get divided by 4. So highest is on left lowest on right which matches up to numbering on switches. Assuming the center range of the pot is being used the 4 frequencies are:
1.2KHz, 300Hz, 75Hz and 18.75Hz.

The Pot on the 555 is only adjustment in systems.  But there are loops on board for O-scope probe to see output of each step.

The attached document shows all the inputs and outputs and what I think is being done by each element and why.  It maybe over kill but it just the way I think and what I wanted to know.  The 7490 was the hardest as most of the data sheets talk about it being a counter but in this case it is being used as a divider (still counting but results is division) there is a link to article that explains why in the document.

Most likely easier way to do this but a least now I know what Stan was using.

Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

Whenever I see "water injectors" in Stanley Meyer documents I kinda stop holding my breath, on account of the many conflicting stories about the injectors claiming that such a system never was fully implemented powering an ICE, unlike the way his "original" WFC powered his dune buggy.

But anyway, it's always (more than) interesting to see parts of his builds coming up for analyzing purposes.

You're welcome.  I am doing this as I never seen this done in anything I could find and I also wanted to know frequencies and timing Stan used. Ronnie said he did this as well and I believe him but he stopped posting before he got to describing what he learned.  Though I think he was heading that way as there were a few references in some of his posts.   

I am also puzzled by people not talking more about several of the must do things that were in Ronnie's threads.  I extracted key things out his threads and a few others as well so I could find them and reread them without wading though the whole thread again. People commented each of item when he posted them but I do not see them in other must do lists.

I have reread what I copied several times and I keep getting a better understand of why it was built the way it was.  Based on Ronnie's comments I believe people do not spend enough time getting the cell conditioned before starting to produce gas in volume. Having said that Stan does not say how to do that only that it is a required step.

I keep trying to figure out how to document my thoughts and this document is a step in writing down what I do not know.  I have written requirements document in the past and also test plans and procedures. I have also written software oand one of things I learned you need to know your inputs and outputs to know what to do.

By the way I hate data sheets. 

Quote from Earl on May 10th, 2019, 07:32 AM

Having said that Stan does not say how to do that only that it is a required step.

I Believe what he refers to is to remove the dead short, which to my best knowlege is "made up" of the very water itself that which is filling up the cavity between cell electrodes (I.E between the anodes and the cathodes, be it in the form of tubes or plates).

And one way to accomplish just that would be to invoke some good old Faradic brute force water electrolysis, thus "coating" the electrode walls with gas bubbles of sort, which "removes the dead short" given the electric insulating properties of gas, in order to sort of pave the way for some Meyer goodness to be applied to the WFC instead, creating gas the Meyer way as opposed to the brute force way.

I hope/think that is the gist if it all anyway :-)

Actually Ronnie provided several steps to do this. 
Tune the system in air 1st at low voltage as when you reach operation level there will gas in the cell
generate a low voltage wave train that never goes away  Vo in diagrams He stated Stan never said you start over from zero. This voltage fill pulse that in normally zero.  He pointed to circuit that does that its somewhere on one of the main cards but same circuit used else where.  He found by studying all the control cards and circuits.  Stated he build his own circuits to do this.
slow increase voltage by increasing frequency do this a steps
state you should start see you gas at around 2 volts if you don't your system is not tuned correct and you will wasting avail energy.
If you are in resonance by 6 volts you also have a problem as you are wasting potential on upper end
Never touch the cell for 2 reason you most like will get a nasty shock and will also kill the charge on well and will need to recondition it again.

These are the things I read in here over the last month or so.  I guess I may have caught them because I read several years of post in a short time span.

And yes I can provide links back to the original threads where all of this is discussed as I copied them into a word doc so I could find them again and even highlighted them so they stand out.   Just do know how to post all that so people will read them.  That document is almost 100 pages long but there are a lot pictures as I copied them as well

Will doing all this work not sure but Ronnie stated if you do not do them your unlike to get it to work.

Thanks Earl, I appreciate your effort in researching Meyer WFC tech and Ronnie has said himself that everything you need to know to be able to replicate his build can be found in his thread.

By all means, do share your Word doc, or if you like you can print it to a PDF file instead so anyone can open it as PDF is available to all who comes here and Word documents are not.

Good luck :-)

Lynx,

I believe you are 100% correct on the gas bubbles on the electrodes. I recently put up a youtube video where I measured the resistance of water between two sets of electrodes... when you reduce the surface area by 1/2 the resistance of the water increases more than 2X!

https://youtu.be/oQHuc3inqVw

Ronnie also told us that you have to get the process making gas bubbles first...

When those bubbles begin to form on the electrodes they are essentially reducing the surface area of the electrodes (I even have scientific papers that make the same conclusion), without that occurring the waters resistance is not high enough to allow the cell to charge.

I recently did some testing on Stan's VIC- but only with the primary and secondary coils... It's very obvious when you do those tests you see that the VIC has very poor voltage regulation- and that the load has to be very light (I think over 100k ohms (leakage current)  but will have to do more measurements and calculations) to generate high voltages.

Earl

Good to have more people interested in Stan's work! I like your style of testing and sharing your findings and ideas as well.

If you haven't tried Multisim I would highly suggest it. It does a good job at simulating Stan's control and driver circuits. You can get the student editions pretty cheap and its an invaluable tool for circuit design and simulation.

Interesting test - results constant with several of Ronnie's comments
1) he stated that Stan's had said smaller cell's were better never said why
2.) In his discussion on independence balancing he showed why ten cell helped as it added more resistance
3) In conditioning discussion he talked about not using all the available power - start creating bubbles to late is bad (said should start around 2 volts and not enter full gas production until near 12 volts)  resistance of the cells will be a factor in this

I looked at Multisim and played with examples.  If I still had my UC Davis email address I could get student rate (I should still have but turned off by mistake when I retired).  However Hobby rate is not bad and only reason I did not purchase it was I was looking at circuits with IC and could not figure out how to added them.  Later I realized for some you could just add the logic gates inside still may be hard to do for more complex chips.
Then I looked at voltage circuits should be a big help there harder for me to figure out what exactly they are doing. I was always more interested in the digital side of things.
I plan on build some of these circuit to verify what they do and so I have something to play with.  Actually on boxed by electronic parts so see what I had before buying things. 

Quote from Earl on May 13th, 2019, 05:54 AM

3) In conditioning discussion he talked about not using all the available power - start creating bubbles to late is bad (said should start around 2 volts and not enter full gas production until near 12 volts)

He also said that if you bump the tuning the slightest bit at 12 volts, you will fry your VIC.  It won't be an amperage type of destruction, instead it will be an arc-over that burns through the insulation--high voltage stuff.  Hence the need for thick triple layer mag wire.

The procedure is actually pretty straightforward:  Low voltage, center tune, up the voltage a tiny bit, center tune and so on until you finally have it precisely dialed in.  Once dialed in, you can power up to full voltage from a cold start and it should run.

Just repeating what I was told as I have no first hand experience of my own.

Ronnie also showed me a simulation run and the values have to be spot on to work.  These values won't necessarily translate exactly to real world components, but it will give you an idea of what your target is.  You're kind of on your own to actually get the real components to match up to the simulation as we all know there are no ideal components in the real world, unlike in a purely mathematical simulation.

Quote from Matt Watts on May 13th, 2019, 12:08 PM

The procedure is actually pretty straightforward:  Low voltage, center tune, up the voltage a tiny bit, center tune and so on until you finally have it precisely dialed in.  Once dialed in, you can power up to full voltage from a cold start and it should run.

Sounds like a project for a proof-of-concept buildoff, in that such a circuit "only" should be serving the tuning protocol of such a manual tuning procedure for a given set of, let's say plates then, or to be more precise 2 plates and nothing else, with both set in stone plate areas and gap (I.E distance between plates) submerged in deionized battery water, powered by an equally set in stone dumbed down VIC kinda transformer populated with set-in-stone coils/inductors placed on some OEM core which in turn are powered by a manually tuned standard 555 PWM Circuit operating at 2-4-6-8-10-12VDC for this very purpose.

I can't come to think of a better suited idea for a buildoff.

Really, I can't :-D

I was rereading Stan/s WO 92/07861 and found I must have an error in the attached file which is now fixed.  I had swapped values for R1 and R2 when calculating the frequency values output from 555 timer.  The work order said output should be over 10KHZ and with values swapped  I had only over 7KHz. 

With correct values it actually puts out over 12HHz.  This also changes the output values of the other 3 stages.  Divide by 4 still applies.

Other big difference is the duty cycle is not near 50% but is over 90% for all frequencies.  I also believe this matches better with wave trains other have been testing.

Since I wrote this analysis I have been looking closer at signal path for other modules and can see where the output of this board is feed into the input of other modules and one of those inputs goes to the Analog Voltage Generator through the Digital Control Means card.  Ronnie is one of his posts stated that signals were all sync. in the GMC unit.  I beginning to understand how that was done.

So it looks like the Frequency carrier goes by one path to one side of the primary coil and the analog frequency goes to the other side of the coil the analog voltage generator and control path.  NOTE: Using the 4 selector switches on the front panel the two frequencies do not have to be the same and most likely are not.

If I understand one of Ronnie's posts one use of these switches could be to increase the voltage on cells during the conditioning phase.  Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works" « Reply #444, on November 4th, 2016, 06:14 PM »

If you read WO 92/07861 closely you can see this described and also the role the feed back circuit plays in all this.  I believe it servers two roles it automatically searches for resonance again with any change in water and I also believe Stan's set a limit using it to keep system for damaging coils.




 

I finish building the circuit did some initial test today as 7490 chip arrive.  Found another error in my analysis The 7490 actually divide by 10 not 4 as it uses a clock signal on pin one to do this.  I also found that the output signal is a square wave with a 50 % duty cycle.  This makes a much better input into the analog wave train.  Also it unlikely that the pulse from the 555 timer will be used to drive the analog wave as frequency would be too High. 

I also found an error in the circuit diagram.  It shows the led to be connect to VDD that does not work right as it was always on.  Need to be connected to ground as it gets +5 V from the inverter output.  Works correctly when wired that way.   I have updated the document to reflect these changes.  I also include O-scope screen shots of each of the 4 stages signal negative and the final output from the inverter stage which makes the signal positive.

 I have ordered the parts for Adjustable Gated Pulse Gen and have done initial conversion of the circuit diagram to layout with actual pin locations which are different.  When doing this I have also found required chip supply lines have been left off diagrams is some cases.  Not a big deal as it makes circuit cleaner but something to be aware of and to check.

I realized that I while started this thread to show the signals out GMU boards into the VIC coils I got side tracked with problem I reported in the thread Voltage Amplitude Control K9 issue https://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3505.msg53854#msg53854 and posted screen shots there never included the final results here. Rather than copying them all here please see that thread.

I also just saw where Nav in thread at this link suggested that a gate of 300hz was being used.

Re: Andrija Puharich's work suggests glass dielectric
As a have a working version of the Stan’s control circuits, I decided to test this.  I set K2 (Variable Pulse Frequency Generator) to generate a 3khz signal.  Using the switch settings, I can then select 3khz, 300hz, 30hz or 3hz as an input to the K3 (Gated Pulse Frequency Generator) and K8 (Analog Voltage Generator). Both K3 and K8 are fed from the same output source on K11 (Digital Control Means) and are labeled M and M1 on circuit diagrams, so I have been testing both using same frequency.

When I fed 300hz into the K3 I can get a 300hz gate, but it has very small range and I cannot get a 50 % duty cycle output more like 15-20 % max duty cycle.  While I had notice there is no gate at 500hz and had reported this in my original testing report for this board I was not sure if 300hz would work correctly at least for the values provided for K3. I can get a signal all the way to the primary coil interface but lose most of all the adjustment in gate size that Stan appears to be using to change rate of gas production.

I am not saying Nav’s theory is wrong only that 300hz does not work with the listed values for K3 that I used to build the circuit.  In a more reason thread The AM signal and how it works. Carrier and modulation Nav discusses how either 50hz or 60hz can be used and methods to test this independent of Stan’s control circuits.

While I have done most of my testing with a 50hz signal when I was doing the 300hz tests I also used 60hz and got also the same results as for the 50hz signal.

I still need to test K14 (Pulser Indicator Circuit) that input should not change the shape of the signal going to the primary coil just the frequency of the modulation, as it mainly effects the PLL function of CD4046B.  This part of testing will be put on hold for now as there is not much more I can do until I get coils built.  My current plan is try to test coils using outline by Nav in his AM signal tread as it should be easier to control variables, as one’s in Stan’s circuit are very touchy and I keep turn wrong knob.

nice

can you please post bill of materials you used for each board Earl

Will take some digging but in almost all cases I used the values from the Stan circuit diagrams from estate drawings marked up by Don.  Where I did not uses parts Stan did were in switches and pots.  I used Standard items.  In most cases I found items in Amazon it not there on ebay and a couple of items I when to Newark for a few things I could not find anywhere else as you can buy small amounts from them but you do have to pay shipping.  That was only place I could find the 5 pole switches (4 in 1 out).

Turns on Amazon I bought 20 amps 5 each cheaper than just buying the ones I needed same for resistors, capacitors and some IC like the 555 timers.  I even found the part on the pulsing circuit that others could not find on ebay.  It was surface mount and I had to buy and adaptor so I could mount it on regular board did that as I was trying to stay a close to Stan's parts as I could.

I not sure if I still have the parts list that I used I know I wrote them down when I was build boards so I knew what I needed to order.  I can look.
 

Thank you Earl

To support testing coils I wound I have made a couple of modifications to Main Frequency Generator board.

1.   Replaced dial pot with screw type pot to provide finer control of the frequency being generated.  The dial pot is very touchy while you can get fairly close with dial pot minor adjustments are hard.  I will be using a 100kohm screw trim pot.  When I adjust the 100kohm I get have fairly good adjustment to the nearest tenth but not beyond that.  I tried a 10kohm pot, but it has the same issue as the 100kohm only good to nearest tenth. 
a.   Results of this test.  The small screw pot does give finer control. Changing value is not as touchy, however, there is a limit to how fine a frequency adjustment you can make with the resister.  Resister is not the problem as I tried using a .01kohm pot with 100kohm to see if I could get even finer control.  With this additional pot in circuit I could make a change frequency, but it was no more accurate that I could get with just the 100kohm pot.   With 100ohm screw pot I consistently got the following results:   
40.98hz    stable
41.32hz    unstable
41.67hz   stable
42.02hz   unstable
42.37hz   stable
Note:  I was trying to set it to 41.237 the above was as close as I could get it. 

I do like the control that the small screw pot does provide as it is easier to do the last fine adjustment and as it takes several turns to make big changes so you are less likely to make a big change that could do damage.  Also there is no way to bump it and change the setting as it is recessed in panel and you need a screw driver to change setting.

2.   I move LED on the board to front panel I now have some LEDs with leads and the panel feed through bracket to hold it.

3.   I mounted feed through test jacks on front panel while I have test points on the board this will make it easier to check frequency without pulling board out.  I used these banana jacks as I do not have a BNC cable for my O-scope

Picture is Main Freq Gen with Mods. The trim pot I used is laying on table label on pot is (Y104   03226  where the Y value tell the ohm value in this case 100 ohms).  I most like will do the same replacement on other boards as I like the results and I have already turned wrong pot when doing some of my testing.

thank you earl for showing the finer tuning it makes a good  lay out looks cool