#### Earl

##### Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
«  »Last edited
I have not been able to find what frequencies Stanley was using as input to the VIC so decide to analyze the circuit diagram for the Main Frequency Generator Board.  It's a simple circuit but my electrical engineering skill are very rusty and finding the data sheets and an use article with what information I needed was not very straight forward.  But I think I have figured it out.  I wrote the attached document to describe how I think it works.  Short answer is 4 frequencies are generated on this board.
Left to right from the 555 through each of the 7490 chips the frequency get divided by 4. So highest is on left lowest on right which matches up to numbering on switches. Assuming the center range of the pot is being used the 4 frequencies are:
1.2KHz, 300Hz, 75Hz and 18.75Hz.

The Pot on the 555 is only adjustment in systems.  But there are loops on board for O-scope probe to see output of each step.

The attached document shows all the inputs and outputs and what I think is being done by each element and why.  It maybe over kill but it just the way I think and what I wanted to know.  The 7490 was the hardest as most of the data sheets talk about it being a counter but in this case it is being used as a divider (still counting but results is division) there is a link to article that explains why in the document.

Most likely easier way to do this but a least now I know what Stan was using.

#### Lynx

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

Whenever I see "water injectors" in Stanley Meyer documents I kinda stop holding my breath, on account of the many conflicting stories about the injectors claiming that such a system never was fully implemented powering an ICE, unlike the way his "original" WFC powered his dune buggy.

But anyway, it's always (more than) interesting to see parts of his builds coming up for analyzing purposes.

#### Earl

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
You're welcome.  I am doing this as I never seen this done in anything I could find and I also wanted to know frequencies and timing Stan used. Ronnie said he did this as well and I believe him but he stopped posting before he got to describing what he learned.  Though I think he was heading that way as there were a few references in some of his posts.

I am also puzzled by people not talking more about several of the must do things that were in Ronnie's threads.  I extracted key things out his threads and a few others as well so I could find them and reread them without wading though the whole thread again. People commented each of item when he posted them but I do not see them in other must do lists.

I have reread what I copied several times and I keep getting a better understand of why it was built the way it was.  Based on Ronnie's comments I believe people do not spend enough time getting the cell conditioned before starting to produce gas in volume. Having said that Stan does not say how to do that only that it is a required step.

I keep trying to figure out how to document my thoughts and this document is a step in writing down what I do not know.  I have written requirements document in the past and also test plans and procedures. I have also written software oand one of things I learned you need to know your inputs and outputs to know what to do.

By the way I hate data sheets.

#### Lynx

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Quote from Earl on May 10th, 07:32 AM
Having said that Stan does not say how to do that only that it is a required step.
I Believe what he refers to is to remove the dead short, which to my best knowlege is "made up" of the very water itself that which is filling up the cavity between cell electrodes (I.E between the anodes and the cathodes, be it in the form of tubes or plates).

And one way to accomplish just that would be to invoke some good old Faradic brute force water electrolysis, thus "coating" the electrode walls with gas bubbles of sort, which "removes the dead short" given the electric insulating properties of gas, in order to sort of pave the way for some Meyer goodness to be applied to the WFC instead, creating gas the Meyer way as opposed to the brute force way.

I hope/think that is the gist if it all anyway :-)

#### Earl

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Actually Ronnie provided several steps to do this.
Tune the system in air 1st at low voltage as when you reach operation level there will gas in the cell
generate a low voltage wave train that never goes away  Vo in diagrams He stated Stan never said you start over from zero. This voltage fill pulse that in normally zero.  He pointed to circuit that does that its somewhere on one of the main cards but same circuit used else where.  He found by studying all the control cards and circuits.  Stated he build his own circuits to do this.
slow increase voltage by increasing frequency do this a steps
state you should start see you gas at around 2 volts if you don't your system is not tuned correct and you will wasting avail energy.
If you are in resonance by 6 volts you also have a problem as you are wasting potential on upper end
Never touch the cell for 2 reason you most like will get a nasty shock and will also kill the charge on well and will need to recondition it again.

These are the things I read in here over the last month or so.  I guess I may have caught them because I read several years of post in a short time span.

And yes I can provide links back to the original threads where all of this is discussed as I copied them into a word doc so I could find them again and even highlighted them so they stand out.   Just do know how to post all that so people will read them.  That document is almost 100 pages long but there are a lot pictures as I copied them as well

Will doing all this work not sure but Ronnie stated if you do not do them your unlike to get it to work.

#### Lynx

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Thanks Earl, I appreciate your effort in researching Meyer WFC tech and Ronnie has said himself that everything you need to know to be able to replicate his build can be found in his thread.

By all means, do share your Word doc, or if you like you can print it to a PDF file instead so anyone can open it as PDF is available to all who comes here and Word documents are not.

Good luck :-)

#### HMS-776

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Lynx,

I believe you are 100% correct on the gas bubbles on the electrodes. I recently put up a youtube video where I measured the resistance of water between two sets of electrodes... when you reduce the surface area by 1/2 the resistance of the water increases more than 2X!

https://youtu.be/oQHuc3inqVw

Ronnie also told us that you have to get the process making gas bubbles first...

When those bubbles begin to form on the electrodes they are essentially reducing the surface area of the electrodes (I even have scientific papers that make the same conclusion), without that occurring the waters resistance is not high enough to allow the cell to charge.

I recently did some testing on Stan's VIC- but only with the primary and secondary coils... It's very obvious when you do those tests you see that the VIC has very poor voltage regulation- and that the load has to be very light (I think over 100k ohms (leakage current)  but will have to do more measurements and calculations) to generate high voltages.

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Earl

Good to have more people interested in Stan's work! I like your style of testing and sharing your findings and ideas as well.

If you haven't tried Multisim I would highly suggest it. It does a good job at simulating Stan's control and driver circuits. You can get the student editions pretty cheap and its an invaluable tool for circuit design and simulation.

#### Earl

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Interesting test - results constant with several of Ronnie's comments
1) he stated that Stan's had said smaller cell's were better never said why
2.) In his discussion on independence balancing he showed why ten cell helped as it added more resistance
3) In conditioning discussion he talked about not using all the available power - start creating bubbles to late is bad (said should start around 2 volts and not enter full gas production until near 12 volts)  resistance of the cells will be a factor in this

I looked at Multisim and played with examples.  If I still had my UC Davis email address I could get student rate (I should still have but turned off by mistake when I retired).  However Hobby rate is not bad and only reason I did not purchase it was I was looking at circuits with IC and could not figure out how to added them.  Later I realized for some you could just add the logic gates inside still may be hard to do for more complex chips.
Then I looked at voltage circuits should be a big help there harder for me to figure out what exactly they are doing. I was always more interested in the digital side of things.
I plan on build some of these circuit to verify what they do and so I have something to play with.  Actually on boxed by electronic parts so see what I had before buying things.

#### Matt Watts

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Quote from Earl on May 13th, 05:54 AM
3) In conditioning discussion he talked about not using all the available power - start creating bubbles to late is bad (said should start around 2 volts and not enter full gas production until near 12 volts)
He also said that if you bump the tuning the slightest bit at 12 volts, you will fry your VIC.  It won't be an amperage type of destruction, instead it will be an arc-over that burns through the insulation--high voltage stuff.  Hence the need for thick triple layer mag wire.

The procedure is actually pretty straightforward:  Low voltage, center tune, up the voltage a tiny bit, center tune and so on until you finally have it precisely dialed in.  Once dialed in, you can power up to full voltage from a cold start and it should run.

Just repeating what I was told as I have no first hand experience of my own.

Ronnie also showed me a simulation run and the values have to be spot on to work.  These values won't necessarily translate exactly to real world components, but it will give you an idea of what your target is.  You're kind of on your own to actually get the real components to match up to the simulation as we all know there are no ideal components in the real world, unlike in a purely mathematical simulation.

#### Lynx

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
Quote from Matt Watts on May 13th, 12:08 PM
The procedure is actually pretty straightforward:  Low voltage, center tune, up the voltage a tiny bit, center tune and so on until you finally have it precisely dialed in.  Once dialed in, you can power up to full voltage from a cold start and it should run.
Sounds like a project for a proof-of-concept buildoff, in that such a circuit "only" should be serving the tuning protocol of such a manual tuning procedure for a given set of, let's say plates then, or to be more precise 2 plates and nothing else, with both set in stone plate areas and gap (I.E distance between plates) submerged in deionized battery water, powered by an equally set in stone dumbed down VIC kinda transformer populated with set-in-stone coils/inductors placed on some OEM core which in turn are powered by a manually tuned standard 555 PWM Circuit operating at 2-4-6-8-10-12VDC for this very purpose.

I can't come to think of a better suited idea for a buildoff.

Really, I can't :-D

#### Earl

##### Re: Frequencies output by Main Frequency Generator Board
I was rereading Stan/s WO 92/07861 and found I must have an error in the attached file which is now fixed.  I had swapped values for R1 and R2 when calculating the frequency values output from 555 timer.  The work order said output should be over 10KHZ and with values swapped  I had only over 7KHz.

With correct values it actually puts out over 12HHz.  This also changes the output values of the other 3 stages.  Divide by 4 still applies.

Other big difference is the duty cycle is not near 50% but is over 90% for all frequencies.  I also believe this matches better with wave trains other have been testing.

Since I wrote this analysis I have been looking closer at signal path for other modules and can see where the output of this board is feed into the input of other modules and one of those inputs goes to the Analog Voltage Generator through the Digital Control Means card.  Ronnie is one of his posts stated that signals were all sync. in the GMC unit.  I beginning to understand how that was done.

So it looks like the Frequency carrier goes by one path to one side of the primary coil and the analog frequency goes to the other side of the coil the analog voltage generator and control path.  NOTE: Using the 4 selector switches on the front panel the two frequencies do not have to be the same and most likely are not.

If I understand one of Ronnie's posts one use of these switches could be to increase the voltage on cells during the conditioning phase.  Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works" « Reply #444, on November 4th, 2016, 06:14 PM »

If you read WO 92/07861 closely you can see this described and also the role the feed back circuit plays in all this.  I believe it servers two roles it automatically searches for resonance again with any change in water and I also believe Stan's set a limit using it to keep system for damaging coils.