New Member Seeking some Help

Mooney

New Member Seeking some Help
«  »Last edited
Hi guys \o

New member here. I have been a replicator mostly but self taught electronics over the years. Previously I built a HHO setup based on Dave Lawton's circuit but it wasn't so good as I missed a few things. Someone on Facebook pointed me to Valentin Petkov's videos and as a result I found these boards. After having read a few topics for a few days I have learnt new things I did not know previously. So please bear with me as I recount them so I can start building a new circuit to incorporate the new knowledge.

- The pulse train should be around 42.8 khz, short sharp pulses.
- The pulse train should be intermittent, that is a 555 ic giving on off signals at an interval of say "X" time units to the oscillator
IC (which will be IR2153 or SG3524) oscillating at 42.8 khz.
- The transformer is a 3/8" dia 7" long ferrite bar. With 500 turn primary wire 22 SWG and 3000 turns 26 SWG.

Now the part about Tesla coil circuit incorporation to intensify voltage. That is how its done right? By making that at the secondary and connecting the WFC? I have tried to find what was written a "tesla resonant tank" but could not find its diagram. I do have the resonant bifilar choke diagram from Petkov's. Is that the same thing?

Which gives rise to another question. The Tesla coil thing will make its own frequencies and pulse train when the spark gap discharges, so why pulse at 42.8 khz to begin with? I know I am probably making a mistake. I have tried to find a circuit diagram, read explanations, but its difficult for me to understand explanations. Diagrams are the language of engineers. Can someone kindly guide me by helping me figure out the circuit past the transformer with 500 : 3000 windings? I will be in your debt.

P.S.: I am planning on taking pictures and making vids of this build, which will take a few weeks at most or few days. I will share them here.


patrick1

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #1,  »
kick some ass Moon,

much wisedom here.

-- Biogas is win

Mooney

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #2,  »Last edited
Thanks Patrick, but I can not build it before I understand what is happening in the chokes before the WFC. It is why I made the thread. I need help with that part of the build. I expected people here to scrutinize the idea, take it apart, correct it where it is wrong.

Gunther Rattay

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #3,  »Last edited
Getting the VIC transformer right and tuned to the WFC is the one and only important part of the system left over. Without that component all additional efforts are for the bin. Right now for the other parts of the system solutions/replications are found but not for the transformer.

talking about oscillator makes no longer sense because sharp edges and spaced pulses are solved and state-of-the art for more than 10 years now but the transformer part  is open space so far ...

you won´t get the transformer explained but you can build some of them, analyze their operational results and learn to optimize.
so far noone has valid formula for VIC transformer calculation.

I think Petkov´s approach makes sense to dig in  and learn ...

patrick1

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #4,  »
ive been talking too matt here, about this,  - i am looking at changing my approach, -

my standard electro cells, make gas, and are easy too get good numbers of LPH,  for watts.

my main excitement about meyers work, is that the cells dont break,  they last forever,  - or so i thought, - but actaully that may not be true at all.

-  so instead i think the best approach is simpley too aim at max gas production, with the VIC rather than perfect electron seperation operation.

Mooney

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #5,  »
Quote from patrick1 on March 12th, 04:14 AM
ive been talking too matt here, about this,  - i am looking at changing my approach, -

my standard electro cells, make gas, and are easy too get good numbers of LPH,  for watts.

my main excitement about meyers work, is that the cells dont break,  they last forever,  - or so i thought, - but actaully that may not be true at all.

-  so instead i think the best approach is simpley too aim at max gas production, with the VIC rather than perfect electron seperation operation.
I think so too. I used to have a series cell just like a 12v battery but with 316L plates powered without a PWM, Pretty sure that it gave me 20 to 25% increase in mileage with about 5 amps of straight DC current. Right now I have no cell in the car. So any improvements over that will be satisfactory for me for the time being.

patrick1

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #6,  »
whats your statement means too me mooney,

-  i used too, and still do, get off on the complex stuff,  - however i want more, - so often my builds are less.

humility demanded i come down too earth, and i will work my way back up again,  continuously

Mooney

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #7,  »
Quote from patrick1 on March 13th, 08:19 AM
whats your statement means too me mooney,

-  i used too, and still do, get off on the complex stuff,  - however i want more, - so often my builds are less.

humility demanded i come down too earth, and i will work my way back up again,  continuously
So Patrick can I ask what is your HHO production system comprised of, as it exists. Plates close together with least gap, pulsed DC feed maybe from a car's ignition coil, at high frequency with on/off intervals to the waveform, perhaps a water pump to keep the water flowing through the plate gaps (saw this method recommended by some lesser known hho inventor).

Perhaps if everyone pools in and consolidates their experiences from their experiments and newcomers can read them in concise posts it will save the later generations much time combing for information and piecing it together. Again my own goal is same as yours, to produce hho as efficiently as possible. If I had to go 100% hydrogen powered car I would forget about onboard on-the-fly hydrogen production and instead produce it with a solar panel at home all day for free, collect it, clean, dry and process it and finally store it in a proper cylinder. Even then there would be engine timing or perhaps even head modifications to make it run properly on 100% hydrogen (I think).

patrick1

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #8,  »
honestly my first cells were all round, capacitor shape things,  and have morphed into flat plate cells. -  -pulsing systems have made little too no effect on the efficiency, - but its hard too tell, because when you turn the cells off, its hard too shake the gas off the paltes etc.  - hard too say at this stage, weather its worth a half ass meyer sytstem .. i think not.-   pulsing seems better, but not by much.

so anyways i would personally rather spread my work around, and doff hats too the meyer replicatiors who are doing a fine job.


btw hho is an easy insignificant part of meyers setup if you ask me...... -- processing and mix'ing the other constituents is the big time game.

Mooney

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #9,  »
Quote from patrick1 on March 17th, 06:18 AM
honestly my first cells were all round, capacitor shape things,  and have morphed into flat plate cells. -  -pulsing systems have made little too no effect on the efficiency, - but its hard too tell, because when you turn the cells off, its hard too shake the gas off the paltes etc.  - hard too say at this stage, weather its worth a half ass meyer sytstem .. i think not.-   pulsing seems better, but not by much.

so anyways i would personally rather spread my work around, and doff hats too the meyer replicatiors who are doing a fine job.


btw hho is an easy insignificant part of meyers setup if you ask me...... -- processing and mix'ing the other constituents is the big time game.
hello patrick

I agree flat plate cells bob boyce style show significantly more gas production albeit they consume a lot of power too which should be expected. I also think pulsing the current should not help, not really, instead it is a means to an end, which is pulsing the transformer at its resonant frequency which probably does something to increase efficiency. If it does not then there is a way I know of which is to attach permanent magnets to the transformer (see charles flynn and lawrence tseung's magnetic frames w/ pulsed dc concept for current amplification). I have tried this amplification part before and does it work. I used it on a bedini coil and got an increase of roughly 100 milliamps. This much current increase can make a huge difference (theoretically) provided the voltage is very high. Or the transformer can be enlarged. The trick to this is to not saturate the core with the perm magnet and to use the correct face and polarity otherwise the current will decrease.

securesupplies

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #10,  »Last edited
Wrong

concentric product 3.75  times the gas  the longer the tube the more the gas, we can insulate tubes to control resistance and dbd barrier in addition to the 3.75 times   together we build 10000000 x home builders  nothing will stop it

warj1990

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #11,  »
I was once shocked by the figures in tube length as well... I never bothered to really look at what it was showing us...

So putting this into perspective: 
2700 cubic INCH per HOUR converts to: 44.24 Liter per Hour.  That is equal to 0.737 L/min.  (737 cc/min) at 120 watts.

 456 cubic INCH per HOUR converts to: 7.47 Liter per Hour.  That is equal to 0.125 L/min.  (125 cc/min) at 84 watts.

Now you have a realistic goal of what to look for when attempting to replicate this portion of his technology in cc/min rates.

Digging deeper:  We know Stanley Pulsed his system at 50% dutcy cycle.  So 50% is full power and 50% is 0.

So AVERAGE is above (84 watts and 120 watts).  If we remove the 50% off time to calculate full on power we get:

84 * 2 = 168 watts, and 120* 2 = 240 watts.

Now:  not couting pulse trains at "brief 0 volts"  we can concider some calculations on volts and amps to establish watts:

168 watts / 4 volts = 42 amps

240 watts / 4 volts = 60 amps.

Based on my own experments and a 3 inch cell you will peak at just under 40 amps before all water between the plates turns to gas or is pushed out by the gases.  So I'm going to adjust the equation to 168 watts / 5 volts = 33.6 amps. 

Now once the water is gone between the plates the voltage can rise to whatever value you choose (capacitor mode)...but your wasting power as you still have amp leak.  This is where Stanley allowed the 50% duty cycle to come in and allow the "resonant caviety" to refill with water, then hit it again with the pulse. !!!

2 possibilites exist for the future designes: 1) The VIC was built and works...but only Stanley Meyer could ever get it to work... or
2)  The VIC was only intended to be used on startup and produce enough GASES to get the motor turning, aka the alternator to feed the real power into the cells.

Anyways thats my two cents.

W.



securesupplies

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #12,  »
infact it is never complete zero 

we are simply avoiding dead short and the amp draw with gating
Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #13,  »
People have show  VIC working
People have also show the other 12 to 14 design working 
People have shown the methods,
People have and use these products

warj1990

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #14,  »
With a little more thought on this...Stanley used the term "VIC" in about every patent and each patent it changed from one design to another.

So to clarify the above statement I made:  The 5 coil "VIC" is what was in reference.  Adding to that it could be possible it taken two of them to run the injector (reviewing patents again).  The 5 core "VIC" I really don't believe pulsed a 4 inch cell with .0625 inch spacing.

With that being said, I have yet to see a real video showing high voltage across water with real gas production - something like 1/2 psi per second increase  VS. 1-2 tiny bubbles.

I would love some links to the video's and demonstrations of this working...beyond any reasonable doubt.  That would certainly encourage my efforts.

In my own experments I have used distilled water and increased the voltage to 340 volts (170 positive above ground, 170 negative below ground).  At this point, for my cell, water started to conduct and normal electrolysis occured.

I'm working on taking another look at the "example" given in the patent on 3:1 step up coil, 100 turn inductor and the 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch tube 4 inches long...so I will be adding that to my work bench area as testing proceeds.

W.

securesupplies

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #15,  »
sadly all those video have been deleted and banned from you tube seams those videos upset some one in the matrix

now only the lucky few have copies and have a reason to share them , the open source forum here is rather deserted  almost like a ghost town

warj1990

Re: New Member Seeking some Help
« Reply #16,  »
I know what you mean securesupplies...

Sadly "B.S" videos seem to stick around forever, but anything of value does not last long.

I wouldn't call this place a ghost town just yet...I do think many people are in the same area I am, just exhausted all ideas and haven't had the desired results. 

I personally believe Stanley used the term "high voltage, low amps" because the industry uses 3-4 volts and 2,000 to 6,000 amps...
(think around the 80's when the patent was applied for).

This would make 120 volts at 1 amp really Low amps and high volts,  same with 200-400 volts at 100 amps...

I did notice his early patents stated 2,000 volts across the cell.  Later he built the 10 series cells and claimed 20,000 volts...So it still seems to be 2 kv per single cell.

One bothering note is Stanley had most of his system figured out in the early 80's, but watching his video's he releases information like it is all new research...for example his N.Z. video of the 90's....everything he talks about was patented in early 80's (EPG, Resonance, etc)

Just trying to think in perspective of the 80's.  We may have taken it another step "thinking" low amps would max at 3-4.

W.