~Russ
The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« on October 25th, 2017, 03:37 PM »
The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
wahada
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #1, on October 25th, 2017, 05:11 PM »
Hi Russ,
Great video series! It really had me thinking about a lot of things and where you were going with all of this. I finally figured it out and saw that your goal is to extract energy from the environment using a spark gap in a resonant circuit.You don't need OU to do this because you are just transferring energy from one place to another. The spark gap being analogous to cavitation in a ram pump. The details of exactly how to do this in an electric circuit escapes me right now but I really like the idea behind this. I will be thinking about the specific five questions that you asked and try to put my two cents into it soon.
Bill
Great video series! It really had me thinking about a lot of things and where you were going with all of this. I finally figured it out and saw that your goal is to extract energy from the environment using a spark gap in a resonant circuit.You don't need OU to do this because you are just transferring energy from one place to another. The spark gap being analogous to cavitation in a ram pump. The details of exactly how to do this in an electric circuit escapes me right now but I really like the idea behind this. I will be thinking about the specific five questions that you asked and try to put my two cents into it soon.
Bill
d3x0r
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #2, on October 25th, 2017, 06:12 PM »
3) where do the voltage spikes come from?
with inductors, and a modified phrase ' a current in motion tens to stay in motion'....
Partially the spike and its level is an artifact of looking at it. That is, since you have a scope there, it's attached to the circuit with a capacitor. Changing the settings on the probe from 1x to 10x or vice versa can affect the extent of the spike you will see. A 10x probe is a larger capacitor, so the same current will fill it slower than if the probe is set at 1x. (a larger capacitor will take more current to fill, so it won't register as high. that being said, those spikes, without probes would be even higher.
Opening a switch between a coil and a capactior reduces the capacitance of that part of the circuit from a notably large capacitance (the capacitor) to a tiny capacitance (the wire itself).
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amplifier-calculators/wire-capacitance/
picofarads per centimeter of wire
12 AWG 0.12275
14 AWG 0.11119
16 AWG 0.10164
18 AWG 0.09367
20 AWG 0.08689
22 AWG 0.08093
24 AWG 0.07585
26 AWG 0.07129
28 AWG 0.06727
with inductors, and a modified phrase ' a current in motion tens to stay in motion'....
Partially the spike and its level is an artifact of looking at it. That is, since you have a scope there, it's attached to the circuit with a capacitor. Changing the settings on the probe from 1x to 10x or vice versa can affect the extent of the spike you will see. A 10x probe is a larger capacitor, so the same current will fill it slower than if the probe is set at 1x. (a larger capacitor will take more current to fill, so it won't register as high. that being said, those spikes, without probes would be even higher.
Opening a switch between a coil and a capactior reduces the capacitance of that part of the circuit from a notably large capacitance (the capacitor) to a tiny capacitance (the wire itself).
https://www.ampbooks.com/mobile/amplifier-calculators/wire-capacitance/
picofarads per centimeter of wire
12 AWG 0.12275
14 AWG 0.11119
16 AWG 0.10164
18 AWG 0.09367
20 AWG 0.08689
22 AWG 0.08093
24 AWG 0.07585
26 AWG 0.07129
28 AWG 0.06727
d3x0r
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #3, on October 25th, 2017, 06:26 PM »
1/2) The first part of the water circuit.... When you open the valve with a short spout to an external water supply all the flow will go there and not down the pipe (a matter of resistance/inductive impedance(reactance)). That being a very long pipe for the main out will have a lot of mass of water to have to update to a new speed, so it will be much lower impedance to go out the spout. If that spout is to a closed container, then it will get presurized, but then again, you're just moving the vacuum from closing the valve from immediately near the valve to that closed container.
If you have a high vertical pipe that goes back up to the height of the resivoire but is open, then that's just a capacitor, and you will lose to the initial opening of the valve some to that pipe, but then it's just a buffer to slow down the mass of water in the output pipe so the cavitation isn't as bad.....
It definatly needs a check vavle to stop losing the current out to the external resivoire...
If the seond resivoire is lower than the pipe, it will never get changed to the level of the initial supply.... you can lower the level... so it has more likely to receive input... Hmm that really deserves a drawing for what I'm thinking probably come back later with that. Kind of thinking that all the resivoires are lower than the pipe, and using kind of a syphon system to move the water, getting momentum in the output pipe will draw from a resivoire under the system... which will put it at a lower level than the input resivoir.... and will fill the final resivoir more.... but not a lot, because the output resivoire wouldn't have as much difference in level as the middle than the first...
Was thikning of using capilary wicks to move water from the low side to the initial high side.... but I guess to get the water out you need a hole, and once you have a hole, the surface tension fo the water plugs the hole if it 's small, ,and if it's large, the water still get exceed the amount to get out... candles work because of the conversion of chemicals generates energy.
https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-we-make-a-perpetual-motion-machine-with-the-use-of-capillary-action
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/188352/how-does-this-capillary-action-setup-not-become-a-perpetual-motion-machine
If you have a high vertical pipe that goes back up to the height of the resivoire but is open, then that's just a capacitor, and you will lose to the initial opening of the valve some to that pipe, but then it's just a buffer to slow down the mass of water in the output pipe so the cavitation isn't as bad.....
It definatly needs a check vavle to stop losing the current out to the external resivoire...
If the seond resivoire is lower than the pipe, it will never get changed to the level of the initial supply.... you can lower the level... so it has more likely to receive input... Hmm that really deserves a drawing for what I'm thinking probably come back later with that. Kind of thinking that all the resivoires are lower than the pipe, and using kind of a syphon system to move the water, getting momentum in the output pipe will draw from a resivoire under the system... which will put it at a lower level than the input resivoir.... and will fill the final resivoir more.... but not a lot, because the output resivoire wouldn't have as much difference in level as the middle than the first...
Was thikning of using capilary wicks to move water from the low side to the initial high side.... but I guess to get the water out you need a hole, and once you have a hole, the surface tension fo the water plugs the hole if it 's small, ,and if it's large, the water still get exceed the amount to get out... candles work because of the conversion of chemicals generates energy.
https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-we-make-a-perpetual-motion-machine-with-the-use-of-capillary-action
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/188352/how-does-this-capillary-action-setup-not-become-a-perpetual-motion-machine
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #4, on October 26th, 2017, 04:46 AM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 10:22 AM
Hi Russ,
q1) pressure increase is zero....yep zero your reservoir is open you would have to have the flow go through two check valves to hold a increase in pressure.. and what distance are the check valves apart and the diameter of the pipe.
.Did you mean what is the force on the valve?? force being different to pressure
Your Capacitor is more like a reservoir.
The flow of water being shut off suddenly would return a shock wave (wave (frequency) hold that thought for later answers to questions below) to the reservoir and a small resonance would be created, In a gravity fed system mostly created by gravity/pressure (head pressure) and any incline in pipe over length (gravitational acceleration). Using a pump under the pressures you're talking about this frequency would have a high peak but quickly dissipate to the open system through the pump (probably damaging the pump in process), unless pipeline is enclosed between two check valves....as a plumber I'd have fitted my double check valve to maintain this pressure if connected to a open gravity fed system to stop my taps splurging when opened again as air would want to re enter.
Q2) how far does this analogy work...well from question 1 you should now have noticed if you show a tank like you have done then it has to be open vented to atmosphere to work as air will have to enter the pipes or else you're pulling a vacuum in your tank reservoir . A reservoir of water may have been better. If you really want to compare the water pipe to that of a electric circuit the water pipework must be a closed system to have a circuit just like our electric circuits...in plumbing this is going to be our flow and return pipes. So it can work comparing it to water but from you electronic guys views you are seeing a open vented system with your drawings on the whiteboard there...you really should be drawing a closed flow and return circuit.
Hope this helps....don't despair you can have a closed system flow and return pipe circuit being fed from a open (vented to atmosphere) system via a check valve if the circuit on the closed flow and return system is going to lose water(energy)...e.g. a heating plumbing circuit might have a safety device to blow off pressure (water) when the closed system flow and return gets too high in water pressure. but note when the system cools you are under pressure (you lost volume water/energy) so a auto refill is set up to replenish. (This was my analogy to Ed's wheel the hanging wire to handle is Ed's blow off spark gap should the voltage get to high it reduces his potential) but i digress.
If you want drawings of this let me know. Don't know if I make sense to you all or my explanations are clear enough.
q1) pressure increase is zero....yep zero your reservoir is open you would have to have the flow go through two check valves to hold a increase in pressure.. and what distance are the check valves apart and the diameter of the pipe.
.Did you mean what is the force on the valve?? force being different to pressure
Your Capacitor is more like a reservoir.
The flow of water being shut off suddenly would return a shock wave (wave (frequency) hold that thought for later answers to questions below) to the reservoir and a small resonance would be created, In a gravity fed system mostly created by gravity/pressure (head pressure) and any incline in pipe over length (gravitational acceleration). Using a pump under the pressures you're talking about this frequency would have a high peak but quickly dissipate to the open system through the pump (probably damaging the pump in process), unless pipeline is enclosed between two check valves....as a plumber I'd have fitted my double check valve to maintain this pressure if connected to a open gravity fed system to stop my taps splurging when opened again as air would want to re enter.
Q2) how far does this analogy work...well from question 1 you should now have noticed if you show a tank like you have done then it has to be open vented to atmosphere to work as air will have to enter the pipes or else you're pulling a vacuum in your tank reservoir . A reservoir of water may have been better. If you really want to compare the water pipe to that of a electric circuit the water pipework must be a closed system to have a circuit just like our electric circuits...in plumbing this is going to be our flow and return pipes. So it can work comparing it to water but from you electronic guys views you are seeing a open vented system with your drawings on the whiteboard there...you really should be drawing a closed flow and return circuit.
Hope this helps....don't despair you can have a closed system flow and return pipe circuit being fed from a open (vented to atmosphere) system via a check valve if the circuit on the closed flow and return system is going to lose water(energy)...e.g. a heating plumbing circuit might have a safety device to blow off pressure (water) when the closed system flow and return gets too high in water pressure. but note when the system cools you are under pressure (you lost volume water/energy) so a auto refill is set up to replenish. (This was my analogy to Ed's wheel the hanging wire to handle is Ed's blow off spark gap should the voltage get to high it reduces his potential) but i digress.
If you want drawings of this let me know. Don't know if I make sense to you all or my explanations are clear enough.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #5, on October 26th, 2017, 05:23 AM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 09:17 AM
Q3) Is all about Impedance and the charge. When you suddenly shut off the moving current the impedance changes because the frequency changes.
The frequency soars for that instance of time and affects the Reactance in our (Z) impedance calculation. The higher frequency will lower impedance and the energy has no (imaginary) resistance Reactance almost a dead short effect.
I surmise The charge attracts more like charges free electrons (that are non localised in the air) get drawn into the circuit (because the circuit has a direction of flow and the field holds non localised electrons from wandering off) with more electrons amassed into a area held by the field allows for more quantized energy movements to take place within that field...meaning more energy in the circuit. which we capture back into out capacitor or battery.
If you opened the switch at your very peaks of your sine wave you should not see the frequency change and no spikes but being that accurate is beyond me.
The frequency soars for that instance of time and affects the Reactance in our (Z) impedance calculation. The higher frequency will lower impedance and the energy has no (imaginary) resistance Reactance almost a dead short effect.
I surmise The charge attracts more like charges free electrons (that are non localised in the air) get drawn into the circuit (because the circuit has a direction of flow and the field holds non localised electrons from wandering off) with more electrons amassed into a area held by the field allows for more quantized energy movements to take place within that field...meaning more energy in the circuit. which we capture back into out capacitor or battery.
If you opened the switch at your very peaks of your sine wave you should not see the frequency change and no spikes but being that accurate is beyond me.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #6, on October 26th, 2017, 05:35 AM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 09:55 AM
Q4) A Capacitive charged system has no real resistance, therefore it generates no heat. A capacitor cannot dissipate power (unless its a poor capacitor)
So when our capacitive circuit goes into a extreme high frequency, (breaking a switch/reed) the reactance value changes and the impedance changes leading to little power dissipating from within the circuit (because little to non is created), the heat in the circuit (from real resistance (inductors and wires) heats the atoms in the circuit) this is drawn out and manifests in the spark which is external to the circuit (this is were closed system meets open) so heat leaves the circuit that way. Remember a hotter body dissipates more heat than same body at a lower hot temperature (i.e. the hotter something is the heat dissipates quicker). A analogy for the heat in a spark is lightning. Lightning heats the air because the air becomes a real resistor (not a imaginary resistor like reactance) as the energy flows in a current through the air the air is a good conductor that dissipates the heat better than the wire (because of convection) so more heat is lost through the air.
So when our capacitive circuit goes into a extreme high frequency, (breaking a switch/reed) the reactance value changes and the impedance changes leading to little power dissipating from within the circuit (because little to non is created), the heat in the circuit (from real resistance (inductors and wires) heats the atoms in the circuit) this is drawn out and manifests in the spark which is external to the circuit (this is were closed system meets open) so heat leaves the circuit that way. Remember a hotter body dissipates more heat than same body at a lower hot temperature (i.e. the hotter something is the heat dissipates quicker). A analogy for the heat in a spark is lightning. Lightning heats the air because the air becomes a real resistor (not a imaginary resistor like reactance) as the energy flows in a current through the air the air is a good conductor that dissipates the heat better than the wire (because of convection) so more heat is lost through the air.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #7, on October 26th, 2017, 05:52 AM »
q5) I am coming to realize that it matters not what condition the electron holds (wave or particle) because in both cases we can still be assured that the electron can be transferred to a new position and from atom to atom.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #8, on October 26th, 2017, 06:02 AM »
Q6) Ou exists in the mind of a man who has not got all the answers. When you see how all the pieces fit together and spread the word for others to understand. Then OU does not exist and you would not have need for it as there is a abundance for all.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #9, on October 27th, 2017, 10:25 AM »
Hi All, No further replies....did I send you all to sleep...if not please re read above answers as I have tried to explain myself better and have modified posts.
regards
regards
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #10, on October 27th, 2017, 01:38 PM »
Hi Russ,
q1) pressure increase is zero....yep zero your reservoir is open you would have to have the flow go through two check valves to hold a increase in pressure.. and what distance are the check valves apart and the diameter of the pipe.
.Did you mean what is the force on the valve?? force being different to pressure
Your Capacitor is more like a reservoir.
The flow of water being shut off suddenly would return a shock wave (wave (frequency) hold that thought for later answers to questions below) to the reservoir and a small resonance would be created, In a gravity fed system mostly created by gravity/pressure (head pressure) and any incline in pipe over length (gravitational acceleration). Using a pump under the pressures you're talking about this frequency would have a high peak but quickly dissipate to the open system through the pump (probably damaging the pump in process), unless pipeline is enclosed between two check valves....as a plumber I'd have fitted my double check valve to maintain this pressure if connected to a open gravity fed system to stop my taps splurging when opened again as air would want to re enter.
however they dont calculate "force" they calculate pressure.. pressure = force in this thinking... i think...
so the question is. if there was a pipe of the same ID next to the valve and it was open at the same time the other was closed... this higher "pressure" would force the water up the pipe. but... with out pressure... there would be no water going up the pipe.
Its a confusing matter because to my understanding they calculate the "force" using pressure calculations... so they call it pressure increase.
but i see your point. but i need more information on that one. good thoughts.
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #11, on October 27th, 2017, 01:42 PM »
Q3) Is all about Impedance and the charge. When you suddenly shut off the moving current the impedance changes because the frequency changes.
The frequency soars for that instance of time and affects the Reactance in our (Z) impedance calculation. The higher frequency will lower impedance and the energy has no (imaginary) resistance Reactance almost a dead short effect.
I surmise The charge attracts more like charges free electrons (that are non localised in the air) get drawn into the circuit (because the circuit has a direction of flow and the field holds non localised electrons from wandering off) with more electrons amassed into a area held by the field allows for more quantized energy movements to take place within that field...meaning more energy in the circuit. which we capture back into out capacitor or battery.
If you opened the switch at your very peaks of your sine wave you should not see the frequency change and no spikes but being that accurate is beyond me.
if it can be captured..
and your saying that this dose not fallow some energy conversation law with in the circuit as in a an isolated system???
if thats true. i should not see a spike in a vacuum??? ( or at lease less? if there are less free electrons? )
~Russ
talisman
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #12, on October 27th, 2017, 01:49 PM »
For the pressure shutting off the valve it seems like the amp build up and reversal. From observation an opposing force current can result in reversal or negative amps.
One arrangement I tried to charge a battery and strange it was negative volts after a little bit... . Did not try it again just yet need that battery.
I can only guess the reason for the spike on the other side, if the spiked voltage has current we can test for current gain from possibly a magnetic field or other induced force.
One arrangement I tried to charge a battery and strange it was negative volts after a little bit... . Did not try it again just yet need that battery.
I can only guess the reason for the spike on the other side, if the spiked voltage has current we can test for current gain from possibly a magnetic field or other induced force.
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #13, on October 27th, 2017, 01:51 PM »
Q4) A Capacitive charged system has no real resistance, therefore it generates no heat. A capacitor cannot dissipate power (unless its a poor capacitor)
So when our capacitive circuit goes into a extreme high frequency, (breaking a switch/reed) the reactance value changes and the impedance changes leading to little power dissipating from within the circuit (because little to non is created), the heat in the circuit (from real resistance (inductors and wires) heats the atoms in the circuit) this is drawn out and manifests in the spark which is external to the circuit (this is were closed system meets open) so heat leaves the circuit that way. Remember a hotter body dissipates more heat than same body at a lower hot temperature (i.e. the hotter something is the heat dissipates quicker). A analogy for the heat in a spark is lightning. Lightning heats the air because the air becomes a real resistor (not a imaginary resistor like reactance) as the energy flows in a current through the air the air is a good conductor that dissipates the heat better than the wire (because of convection) so more heat is lost through the air.
so i have to ask, if plasma is where the energy is " lost" then that is a 180 from my thinking. where the plasma is where the energy gets in..
why? because in a plasma "electrons" are accelerated and there for more can be drawn in to the system to generate some effect ( i don know yet what that is) etc. dont forget a plasma has a lot less resistance that a wire... there for a plasma is a negative resistance.
Unlike a normal electrical conductor, the resistance (and voltage drop) across an unconfined plasma channel decreases with increasing current flow, a property called negative resistance.
its interesting that you say the system draws out it heat and places it in the plasma Chanel... if that were true would not the wire need to get cold at the same rate that a plasma gets hot?
i'd say no IF the plasma draws in free electrons... ( like that of the transient spike)
more to discuss.
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #14, on October 27th, 2017, 01:57 PM »
For the pressure shutting off the valve it seems like the amp build up and reversal. From observation an opposing force current can result in reversal or negative amps.
One arrangement I tried to charge a battery and strange it was negative volts after a little bit... . Did not try it again just yet need that battery.
I can only guess the reason for the spike on the other side, if the spiked voltage has current we can test for current gain from possibly a magnetic field or other induced force.
ill attache a photo pf the schismatic. The coils are arranged like an old induction coil.
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #15, on October 27th, 2017, 01:58 PM »
Negtive pull...
from my memory i was able to get 15V in the charge cap, and -12 in the run cap.
starting with 30V or so...
~Russ
from my memory i was able to get 15V in the charge cap, and -12 in the run cap.
starting with 30V or so...
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #16, on October 27th, 2017, 02:00 PM »
q5) I am coming to realize that it matters not what condition the electron holds (wave or particle) because in both cases we can still be assured that the electron can be transferred to a new position and from atom to atom.
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #17, on October 27th, 2017, 02:01 PM »
Hi All, No further replies....did I send you all to sleep...if not please re read above answers as I have tried to explain myself better and have modified posts.
regards
talisman
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #18, on October 27th, 2017, 02:07 PM »
I always thought of pressure as being a force.
With non compress ability I think in terms of energy density. Such as the charge state of the electron or plasma.
In molecular thermo theory pressure builds or contracts in a confined space forcing contractive crimping or ruptures
to a physical space.
With non compress ability I think in terms of energy density. Such as the charge state of the electron or plasma.
In molecular thermo theory pressure builds or contracts in a confined space forcing contractive crimping or ruptures
to a physical space.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #19, on October 27th, 2017, 02:10 PM »
Thank you guys for replies, I want to give some of your questions due thought and I will answer....glad we are all thinking and much is to be learnt...
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #20, on October 27th, 2017, 03:37 PM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 03:39 PM
@Russ reply #10Quote pressure is not force back to my early plumbing days....we think of them as the same but they can be the same. P=force/area
it explains it well here click here for explanation
I think your thinking your pump is going to stop the force, the force needed to blow the pipe has to push against something to exert force, which is what you explain as the pressure, the pressure on a area exerts the force. but what you drawed was not plumbing.
You drawed a tank (sealed) that was having the water extracted by a pump. The act of doing this would pull a vacuum in the tank because no air is getting in. So yes the pump would create a pressurised side on one side and a negative pressure on the other. To get anywhere near your pressure you would need to have added a check valve, but you didn't state that. So with the absence of the check valve, the sudden closure of a valve on the pressurized side would only have really sent a shock wave back to the negative pressure side and it would have been absorbed...hence I said no Extra pressure. but you would have had a force in the opposite direction.
In the examples you show with water hammer in the videos they have a flow and return pipe (a loop) but thats not needed as long as some part of the pipe work has a check valve after the reservoir of the source water.
The check valve is very important to give the force a datum point to exert force from. The force is measured by a pressure in the scale you wish to choose which needs a area for the math to get the pressure.
Hope this helps
hummm... it is to my understanding that there is a massive pressure increase. why? because there is no compresibility.. so the pipe will blow if its to high. do to what? force...
however they don't calculate "force" they calculate pressure.. pressure = force in this thinking... i think...
it explains it well here click here for explanation
I think your thinking your pump is going to stop the force, the force needed to blow the pipe has to push against something to exert force, which is what you explain as the pressure, the pressure on a area exerts the force. but what you drawed was not plumbing.
You drawed a tank (sealed) that was having the water extracted by a pump. The act of doing this would pull a vacuum in the tank because no air is getting in. So yes the pump would create a pressurised side on one side and a negative pressure on the other. To get anywhere near your pressure you would need to have added a check valve, but you didn't state that. So with the absence of the check valve, the sudden closure of a valve on the pressurized side would only have really sent a shock wave back to the negative pressure side and it would have been absorbed...hence I said no Extra pressure. but you would have had a force in the opposite direction.
In the examples you show with water hammer in the videos they have a flow and return pipe (a loop) but thats not needed as long as some part of the pipe work has a check valve after the reservoir of the source water.
The check valve is very important to give the force a datum point to exert force from. The force is measured by a pressure in the scale you wish to choose which needs a area for the math to get the pressure.
Hope this helps
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #21, on October 27th, 2017, 03:47 PM »
agreed sonnet. there is a lot to discuss and open us up to. so lets keep sharing and thinking openly. no question's is a dumb one... question EVERYTHING
~Russ
~Russ
~Russ
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #22, on October 27th, 2017, 03:50 PM »
@Russ reply #10pressure is not force back to my early plumbing days....we think of them as the same but they can be the same. P=force/area
it explains it well here click here for explanation
I think your thinking your pump is going to stop the force, the force needed to blow the pipe has to push against something to exert force, which is what you explain as the pressure, the pressure on a area exerts the force. but what you drawed was not plumbing.
You drawed a tank (sealed) that was having the water extracted by a pump. The act of doing this would pull a vacuum in the tank because no air is getting in. So yes the pump would create a pressurised side on one side and a negative pressure on the other. To get anywhere near your pressure you would need to have added a check valve, but you didn't state that. So with the absence of the check valve, the sudden closure of a valve on the pressurized side would only have really sent a shock wave back to the negative pressure side and it would have been absorbed...hence I said no Extra pressure. but you would have had a force in the opposite direction.
In the examples you show with water hammer in the videos they have a flow and return pipe (a loop) but thats not needed as long as some part of the pipe work has a check valve after the reservoir of the source water.
The check valve is very important to give the force a datum point to exert force from. The force is measured by a pressure in the scale you wish to choose which needs a area for the math to get the pressure.
Hope this helps
i was implying the tank be a lake or a water tower Etc. those will be open! so no vac in that part of the system!
and the outlet was just open to the Atm.
thanks for the clarity!!
~Russ
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #23, on October 27th, 2017, 03:54 PM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 04:12 PM
@Russ reply #10Quote by next to the pipe I take it you mean before the valve...(it could be anywhere before the valve) and we put a check valve before our pump and instead of thinking of timing valve opening/closing we put a spring load valve (a pressure release valve) on the upright pipe and we set this pressure release valve at the same (just above) pressure of the flow, when the pump is running we suddenly shut the open/close valve Yes you would see the extra pressure push out water from your upright pipe.
so the question is. if there was a pipe of the same ID next to the valve and it was open at the same time the other was closed... this higher "pressure" would force the water up the pipe. but... with out pressure... there would be no water going up the pipe.
sonnet
Re: The Search For Answers Part 8: ask and you shall receive. your turn....
« Reply #24, on October 27th, 2017, 04:08 PM »Last edited on October 27th, 2017, 06:07 PM
@Russ reply #10 + reply #23
So your water came out what's now in the pipe in terms of pressure....
Well our pump we hope is still running and not damaged so capable of delivering the same pressure as before....we are not now using that tank...its a open system like a lake....
well its the same pressure russ, not more or less as your thinking. the open system side replenished the loss....water got sucked in. If that water in the lake was colder than the pipe water (which it would be) it now cools the pressurrised side, just as the heat in the water pushed out is lost from the circuit.
Why did I say the water in the lake was colder???? because the water in the pipe has been subjected to resistance russ....
so overall the ejection cooled the system....If we opened and closed that pipe valve like in a reed switch the water would have had a complete change around eventually from the original water that entered the pipe.
So your water came out what's now in the pipe in terms of pressure....
Well our pump we hope is still running and not damaged so capable of delivering the same pressure as before....we are not now using that tank...its a open system like a lake....
well its the same pressure russ, not more or less as your thinking. the open system side replenished the loss....water got sucked in. If that water in the lake was colder than the pipe water (which it would be) it now cools the pressurrised side, just as the heat in the water pushed out is lost from the circuit.
Why did I say the water in the lake was colder???? because the water in the pipe has been subjected to resistance russ....
so overall the ejection cooled the system....If we opened and closed that pipe valve like in a reed switch the water would have had a complete change around eventually from the original water that entered the pipe.