#### Cycle

##### x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
«  »Last edited by Cycle
Apparently Stan Meyer used a bifilar coil for this Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) on his Water Fuel Cell (WFC). The bifilar coil windings were wound in the same direction on the same core, so the inductance was greater than a single coil or two separate coils. Because he used a diode between the power source (his gated variable amplitude pulse train) and the coil, when power was removed from the coil, the collapsing magnetic field created a voltage which had no choice but to try to go to ground through the Water Fuel Cell.

Thus, Meyer increased the voltage and got double the pulse rate than he was driving with (one pulse to the WFC when the power was on and the bifilar coils were building a magnetic field; one when the power was off and the magnetic field was collapsing).

Meyer used parametric oscillation to force the water molecules apart... his WFC ran at twice the resonant frequency due to his VIC.

If a kid in a swing pumps his legs twice (forward at the start of the forward swing, backward at the start of the backward swing) for each oscillation of the swing to get moving (a driven harmonic oscillation), he can get swinging pretty high... but if he then transitions to standing toward each high point of the swing then squatting at the bottom of each swing, he'll swing much higher (parametric pumping). You'll note that in order for parametric pumping to work, one must first have harmonic oscillation (ie: a kid can stand and squat all he wants in a stationary swing, and he won't go anywhere). This is exactly what Meyer did, using his VIC (parametric pumping) and his gated variable amplitude pulse train (driven harmonic oscillation).

Now, as I outline here, as the WFC 'capacitor' charges, the OH- and H3O+ separate:
Quote from Cycle
In the tank, you'd have a high-conductivity region of OH- rich (high pH, alkaline) water near the positive plates; a low-conductivity neutral pH region in the center of the tank; and a high-conductivity region of H3O+ rich (low pH, acidic) water near the negative plates. That low-conductivity neutral pH region in the center of the tank is what limits the amps. The center divider minimizes re-mixing of the OH- and H3O+, minimizing water heating. Really it only needs to be large enough that the circuit can be completed, and the anions and cations can migrate, so a divider with a couple holes should suffice. The smaller the holes, the longer it'll take for the OH- and H3O+ to separate, but the longer they'll remain separated after power is switched off (think in terms of shutting down the engine... to restart, you'd have to energize the plates, wait for the water to separate, then start the engine... smaller holes allow a quicker hot startup, since the water remains largely separated, but it slows down a cold startup, since it'll take longer for the water to separate).
This causes that neutral-pH region of current-limiting water to become thinner, causing the WFC "capacitor's" capacitance to decrease (this is why Meyer had his gated variable amplitude pulse train watch for increased current so it would stop jacking up the voltage if that neutral-pH region got too thin and current flow increased).

If the oscillations are roughly twice the natural frequency of the WFC, the pulse driver will be forced to phase-lock onto that parametric oscillation, causing the in-WFC amplitude to grow exponentially (which, if Meyer hadn't had his circuitry watch for increasing current, would cause sudden and catastrophic dissociation of some of the water in the WFC, akin to the sudden breakdown of the dielectric in a capacitor).

But the WFC's resonant frequency band was extremely narrow, and changed as the water segregated into OH- and H3O+ (and thus as that central region of neutral-pH water thinned), as the WFC water level changed and as the voltage level in the WFC changed (which changed the electric dipole moment of the water itself). That required complicated circuitry to find the resonant frequency, so Meyer developed his injector.

His injector worked by breaking the water up into tiny droplets, which minimizes the hydrogen bonding strength seen in bulk water (the smaller the droplet size, the lower the surface tension). Then hitting it with an electric arc rapidly dissociates the water with minimal energy input.

Surface tension usually determines droplet size (the more surface tension a liquid has, the larger the droplet will be), but by forcing the liquid into smaller droplets than they'd naturally form, we reduce the surface tension by reducing the hydrogen bonding strength of the water.

We can do essentially the same thing without all the complicated engineering of Meyer et. al., I believe.
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2431

We have an analog of the WFC in the tank described. We can do one of four things:
1) If we're merely using water to supplement fuel, we can pump the OH- rich water to an injector in the engine's intake. OH- being an integral part of the combustion process, it ensures a quick, complete and efficient combustion of the hydrocarbon fuel.

2) If we're trying to run the engine on water alone, we can pump the H3O+ rich water to an injector in the engine's intake. It'd spray directly onto an ultrasonic piezo, ensuring extremely tiny droplet size. It would need to be a piezo which can run dry without damage, though. Hitting that H3O+ rich water fog with an electric arc should cause quite an energetic explosion.

3) We can find some way of separately direct-injecting the OH- and H3O+ into the cylinder with an injector like Stan Meyer's, then hitting it with an electric arc (it wouldn't take much to get them to react... in fact, they'll likely explode without any arc). This would extract the most energy, but it carries the most risk. You cannot inject both OH- and H3O+ into the intake tract of the engine... they're likely to prematurely combust and you'll start a fire.

4) We can inject the OH- into the intake tract, and direct-inject the H3O+ into the cylinder. Because OH- is an integral part of hydrocarbon combustion, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to reverse this (direct-inject OH- into the cylinder and inject H3O+ into the intake tract) if we're merely using water to supplement a hydrocarbon fuel, as it could lead to premature detonation. But it'd work equally as well as the inverse (inject OH- into the intake tract and direct-inject H3O+ into the cylinder), if we're merely trying to run the engine on water alone... but that means you can't run that engine dual-fuel (water and hydrocarbon fuels) anymore, so OH- injection into the intake tract and H3O+ direct-injection would be the most flexible route.

Remember, H3O+ is isoelectronically identical to ammonia (NH3), which is being investigated as a possible fuel. We should get similar energy yield for H3O+, but the byproduct will be only water.

#### Matt Watts

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
Quote from Cycle on October 21st, 2017, 08:26 PM
Meyer used parametric oscillation to force the water molecules apart... his WFC ran at twice the resonant frequency due to his VIC.

If a kid in a swing pumps his legs twice (forward at the start of the forward swing, backward at the start of the backward swing) for each oscillation of the swing to get moving (a driven harmonic oscillation), he can get swinging pretty high... but if he then transitions to squatting toward each high point of the swing then standing at the bottom of each swing, he'll swing much higher (parametric pumping). You'll note that in order for parametric pumping to work, one must first have harmonic oscillation (ie: a kid can stand and squat all he wants in a stationary swing, and he won't go anywhere). This is exactly what Meyer did, using his VIC (parametric pumping) and his gated variable amplitude pulse train (driven harmonic oscillation).
Cycle, I would really appreciate you focusing on this theme for at least a few days.  I've struggled with this concept electrically for a long time now and I'm certain (because I was directly told by Nelson Rocha this is key--parametric oscillation by way of series/parallel resonance) this is the doorway into self running operation.  I still haven't been able to wrap my head around it.  If you would try to articulate several different analogies from what you understand, hopefully one of them will make a light go off in my head.  Please do the best you can relating your analogy to the electrical design.  I'm certain if I can see how this would need to be constructed electrically, anyone could do it.

#### Cycle

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #2,  »Last edited by Cycle
I'll think on it for awhile to try to come up with a good analogy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametric_oscillator
Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parametric_oscillator
If the parameters vary at roughly twice the natural frequency of the oscillator (defined below), the oscillator phase-locks to the parametric variation and absorbs energy at a rate proportional to the energy it already has. Without a compensating energy-loss mechanism provided by {damping}, the oscillation amplitude grows exponentially. (This phenomenon is called parametric excitation, parametric resonance or parametric pumping.) However, if the initial amplitude is zero, it will remain so; this distinguishes it from the non-parametric resonance of driven simple harmonic oscillators, in which the amplitude grows linearly in time regardless of the initial state.
So a driven harmonic oscillation is an example of forcing... the energy level increases linearly. Parametric resonance requires a driven harmonic oscillation to get started, but the conditions of having low damping and/or resonance means the energy level grows exponentially.

An analogy:
You're standing in a canyon with sheer rock walls, midway between the walls. You face one wall and yell at the resonant frequency of the canyon, then just as the echo reaches you, you whirl around and yell again at just the right instant that your yell constructively interferes with the echo. Rinse and repeat until the canyon walls crumble.

That first yell is a driven harmonic oscillation. Each subsequent yell is parametric resonant pumping.

The problem with Meyer's WFC is that it had a low Q factor (high damping). To extend the analogy, he had a bunch of trees in the canyon absorbing the sound. So he developed his injector, which uses different methods to achieve the same means.

Rather than his WFC bringing the water near the energy barrier to autoionization, he forced explosive ionization in his injector, decreasing the energy necessary to do so by creating tiny droplets which have lower surface tension and hence lower hydrogen bonding strength.

I think he was on the 'righter' path with his WFC, although the neutral-pH low-conductivity region of the water was so thin that he had to use stepped voltage and a relaxation time to prevent catastrophic 'electrolyte' breakdown in the 'capacitor', which would have caused essentially a dead short across the WFC.

His injector forces this catastrophic breakdown, but the current path is limited because the water is in tiny droplets, so there's not much of a path for current to flow. The high temperature of the electric arc overcomes the lower hydrogen bonding strength of the tiny droplets, forcing dissociation and hence combustion.

With a tank segregating the water into OH- and H3O+, and with a wide low-conductivity neutral-pH region in the center of the tank, the current remains low while the voltage across the tank can be high enough to put the water into the energetic region whereby the energy barrier to autoionization is breached or very nearly so.

If Meyer had used a tank and injected the OH- and H3O+ separately into his injector, he'd have gotten a much more powerful explosion.

Here's where it gets really weird... Meyer's WFC wasn't really a harmonic oscillator. It was an anharmonic oscillator (an oscillating system in which the restoring force opposing a displacement from the position of equilibrium is a nonlinear function of the displacement... basically a harmonic oscillator driven to the point of runaway). But he was using parametric resonance to keep the anharmonic oscillator oscillating. In fact, he had to use parametric resonance to pump the WFC... parametric coupling to the anharmonic oscillator was the only way to keep it oscillating. The water's electric dipole moment was one of the parameters which changed, necessitating parametric pumping.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anharmonicity
Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anharmonicity
There are many systems throughout the physical world that can be modeled as anharmonic oscillators in addition to the nonlinear mass-spring system. For example, an atom, which consists of a positively charged nucleus surrounded by a negatively charged electronic cloud, experiences a displacement between the center of mass of the nucleus and the electronic cloud when an electric field is present. The amount of that displacement, called the electric dipole moment, is related linearly to the applied field for small fields, but as the magnitude of the field is increased, the field-dipole moment relationship becomes nonlinear, just as in the mechanical system.
The restoring force is no longer proportional to the square of the displacement from the equilibrium position, it is instead less than the square of the displacement from the equilibrium position. This is what pushes the WFC (capacitor) water (electrolyte) into runaway breakdown if voltage is not stepped up while watching current, then cutting back on the voltage when current flow rises.

This is also why a large enough tank with a wide low-conductivity neutral-pH region in the center will push the water over the autoionization energy threshold, because we can use a high enough voltage and keep the current low.
Quote from http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic_electric_effects.html
Very high field strengths (>2.5  ˣ 109 V ˣ m-1) cause water dissociation in liquid water...

A.M. Saitta , F. Saija and P. V. Giaquinta, Ab initio molecular dynamics study of dissociation of water under an electric field, Physical Review Letters 108 (2012) 207801.

Fields beyond a threshold of about 0.35 V / angstrom are able to dissociate molecules and sustain an ionic current via a series of correlated proton jumps. Upon applying even more intense fields (∼ 1.0 V / angstrom ), a 15%–20% fraction of molecules are instantaneously dissociated and the resulting ionic flow yields a conductance of about 7.8 Ω −1 cm −1, in good agreement with experimental values.
You'll note that it's the field strength alone that causes the water to dissociate in the quoted text above... while an ionic current is initially set up to segregate the water, once that's done, no current is necessary to force the water over the autoionization threshold.

Does that 7.8 Ω −1 cm −1 look familiar? Didn't Stan say his WFC had a water dielectric value of 78.54 Ohms?
##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #3,  »Last edited by Cycle
Me wonders how we could create a WFC-type device which is a self-oscillator... in which the input energy acts in phase with the velocity, causing a negative damping that feeds energy into the oscillation. A self-oscillator can generate and maintain a regular periodicity without requiring a similar external periodicity to drive it. Just apply a DC voltage and it starts oscillating.

That'd offset the relatively high damping of Meyer's WFC, which means it'd require even less energy to operate. Essentially it entails spacing the plates such that the node of the standing-wave oscillation is at the plates (and the antinode is in the water), representing a low energy density spot which always constructively interferes with the standing wave. We've got two plate polarities to work with, and creating a standing wave requires the interference of two waves, so it could be done... it's just a matter of working out the math. And a means of controlling it (it'd be self-limiting at the breakdown of the electrolyte, but perhaps voltage alone would control the self-oscillation amplitude the rest of the time).

A further advantage of a standing wave self-oscillator is that the high-energy-density anti-node will be in the water... not at the plates. This means dissociation would occur in the water, not at the plates. Thus there are fewer bubbles sticking to the plates.

Think of the human voice... we don't have to pulse the air from our lungs to create an oscillation in the vocal cords, a steady flow of air creates a self-oscillation. The muscles surrounding the vocal cords vary their tautness, which varies the frequency, but they set up their own oscillation.
##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #4,  »Last edited by Cycle
A magnetic pinch is the compression of an electrically-conducting plasma filament by its surrounding magnetic field.

Meyer's injector utilized high voltage, which ionized a conduction path. The configuration would generate a toroidal Z-pinch magnetic field, but this isn't the most ideal pinch for ejecting the water from the injector. A Theta-pinch (which is the inverse of the Z-pinch in that the Z-pinch has the current running down the walls of the cylinder, with the magnetic field azimuthal to the walls; whereas the Theta-pinch has the magnetic field running down the walls of the cylinder with the current running azimuthal to the walls) would be a better solution.

In order to achieve this in an injector, we'd have to have a ring of "spark gaps" which would emulate an azimuthal current, setting up the compressing magnetic field orthogonal to the axis of the injector.

{Theta-pinch injector. The gray section is an insulator. The blue circle is the water inlet.}

This would eject the water from the injector, which would not only ensure that water fouling would be less likely to occur, but when that water starts expanding, it'll eject it more forcefully, giving us that little bit more force against the cylinder.

We could still get the same conical shape of the Meyer injector (which would increase the expulsion force even more), but the 'spark gap' spacing would have to remain the same as the inner radius of the 'spark gap' metal sections decreased.

Conversely, we could construct it such that we had a spiral of 'spark gaps' such that the spark jumped the gaps successively while spiraling toward the end of the injector. This would set up a rotating compressive magnetic field which traveled toward the end of the injector while pinching the water molecules together, forcefully expelling them.

Of course, timing is essential on an injector of this type... the water would have to be injected at the exact moment that it's traveling on the front of that magnetic 'wave', or it'll be pinched such that its exit from the injector is hindered by the magnetic pinch.

#### reverandkilljoy

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
interesting theory, problem is tap water is a dead short.... so where is the differential capacitance parametric resonance?

lol

how would changing the capacitance create a parametric resonance?

you gave a bunch of analogies... mabye you could explain with respect to the actual circuit?

#### Cycle

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #6,  »Last edited by Cycle
Tap water is not a dead short. Its conductivity is a function of the TDS concentration. The approximate resistivities of pure water, tap water and seawater are 18 MΩ ˣ cm, 5 kΩ ˣ cm and 20 Ω ˣ cm respectively.

The changing capacitance of the WFC doesn't "create" a parametric oscillation, it necessitates using parametric pumping to keep the anharmonic oscillation going. IOW, you have to push at the right time, or the swing stops... and the timing of that push changes due to changes in WFC water level, voltage (and hence the restoring force of the water's electric dipole moment), water conductivity, temperature (and hence hydrogen bonding strength), plate pickling at the acidic H3O+-rich negative plate and passivation layer hydrogen adsorption at the OH--rich positive plate (hydrogen significantly increases the conductivity of passive film due to the increase of OH/O2 ratio, especially for austenitic stainless steel.).

#### chuff1

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
I just had an epiphany.  Considering that we use a positive and negative electrode
in our water bath, what we are doing is Deionizing the water.  When this happens
it creates a dielectric within the water between the plates.  Thereby increasing the
capacitance of the circuit.  Which will lower the efficiency if you do not constantly
adjust either the frequency or the Inductance of the active circuit.

#### Cycle

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #8,  »Last edited by Cycle
Going back to the swing analogy... a kid kicking (forward at the start of the forward swing, backward at the start of the backward swing) is oscillating once per 'wavelength'. Kick forward for the forward swing, kick backward for the backward swing. This is normal resonant frequency forcing. This causes a linear energy increase of the oscillation.

But if he stands and squats, he's oscillating at twice the resonant frequency of the swing (up at the apex of the backward swing, down at the bottom, up at the apex of the forward swing, down at the bottom). This is parametric pumping. This causes an exponential energy increase of the oscillation.

Here's another good example:

That reminds me of the time I walked into a room at work to find one of the four all-thread suspension bolts holding up a fan-coil unit in the overhead shaking back and forth violently. I knew it was due to the resonance between the rotation of the fan-coil unit's blower (a very small unit, driven by a 1/4 HP motor), the resonant frequency of the all-thread and the resonant frequency of the corrugated metal subfloor of the floor above that the all-thread was bolted to in the ceiling. I didn't know it was a parametric oscillation, though. By adjusting the nuts clamping the all-thread to the channel-iron which was holding up the fan-coil unit to shorten the all-thread section that was shaking, the oscillation was damped.

Strangely, there was no vibration from the fan-coil unit after that (I expected to feel some vibration from an unbalanced blower, but it was so minute that my 'calibrated' hand (I can touch a piece of equipment and know what's wrong with it by its vibration... from an unbalanced blower, to a belt that's cracked and ready to break, to a bearing that needs grease) didn't sense anything, so it must have just been one of those lucky coincidences that the all-thread stretched over time to the exact length necessary to hit that very narrow resonance band.
##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #9,  »Last edited by Cycle
Quote from chuff1 on October 23rd, 2017, 06:02 PM
I just had an epiphany.  Considering that we use a positive and negative electrode
in our water bath, what we are doing is Deionizing the water.  When this happens
it creates a dielectric within the water between the plates.  Thereby increasing the
capacitance of the circuit.  Which will lower the efficiency if you do not constantly
adjust either the frequency or the Inductance of the active circuit.
Sort of... we do deionize the central region, but we increase the cation and anion concentration in the plate regions. So the central region becomes less conductive, but as the more-conductive cation and anion regions expand in the plate regions, that less-conductive central region becomes thinner, and thus there's less of it to resist current flow. That's why you need a central divider with a couple small holes (or a Nafion membrane) to slow down the OH- and H3O+ recombining, which just heats up the water and wastes the energy you've put into segregating the cations and anions.

#### chuff1

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
Could we not put a strong electrostatic field perpendicular the current flow and divert the ions?
If we take a electrolyte solution and add a grid can we make an AC battery  by using the same principle idea as a vacuum tube?

#### Cycle

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #11,  »Last edited by Cycle
Quote from chuff1 on October 23rd, 2017, 06:53 PM
Could we not put a strong electrostatic field perpendicular the current flow and divert the ions?
Yes, we could. But that requires another energy input, when those cations and anions are already driven to the plates via ionic current. Pumping them out from that area will give you high-pH (OH- rich) and low-pH (H3O+ rich) water. Pumping them separately to an injector, combining them in the injector, then hitting them with an electric arc should give quite a bang.

The reason we want to use OH- and H3O+ is because storing hydrogen and oxygen is dangerous, requires high pressures and can be explosive with even the smallest slip-up (and hydrogen will migrate through even metal containers, so there's the loss factor and an explosion hazard). We get the same energy from hydroxide and hydronium, but it can be stored at atmospheric pressure and ambient temperature (in separate electrically-insulated containers) without the explosion hazard (unless you combine the hydroxide and hydronium).

Heck, even handling hydrogen is dangerous. Build up a slight static charge and you've got an explosion. And that explosion will rip backwards through your hydrogen tube all the way to your electrolyzer and blow it up unless you've got an effective flashback preventer. Russ can tell you about how fast that hydrogen will flash back through your tube... he's got a video in which he got a flashback, the slow-motion replay of it is pretty impressive.

As to the battery idea... hmmmm. The OH- container will have excess negative charge, the H3O+ container will have excess positive charge. It wouldn't work for AC, but it might make for good grid-scale DC storage.
##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
« Reply #12,  »Last edited by Cycle
Here's something interesting:
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_dissociation.html
Quote from http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_dissociation.html
...the volume change in this reaction

2 H2O(aq) ->  H3O+(aq) + OH-(aq)  ΔV = -22.3 cm3 mol-1

at 25 °C and infinite dilution, [1946], see Figure:

due to the change in the hydration strength plus electrostriction, is about the same as one molecule of water (18.1 cm3 ˣ mol-1); when one water molecule ionizes, its volume effectively disappears.
This means OH- and H3O+ is denser than bulk water. So if we're tapping off the cell to pump the OH- and H3O+ to an injector where we hit it with an electric arc, we should draw from the bottom of the cell at each end where the plates are (and hence where the OH- and H3O+ concentrations are highest).

This also points the way toward a means of storing the OH- and H3O+... tapping off the separation tank's bottom at each end and down to two separate electrically-isolated storage tanks will allow the more-dense OH- and H3O+ to sink into the storage tanks, which will naturally displace any water back into the separation tank. The long route the OH- and H3O+ would have to take (from one storage tank, through the separation tank with its central barrier with small holes, and into the other storage tank) would make it unlikely for much recombination to occur. Then, rather than tapping from the separation tank to inject into the engine, one could tap from the storage tanks. This would allow one to have a store of segregated OH- and H3O+ rich water in the storage tanks with which to start the engine without having to wait for the separation tank to segregate the anions and cations.

Also this:
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/material_anomalies.html#elec
Quote from http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/material_anomalies.html#elec
...the electrolytic conductivity changes considerably with the potential frequency...

...with the high-frequency conductivity (1 THz) being extremely high, due to the ease with which the water ionizes to short-lived H2O-H+···OH- ion-pairs. The concentration of these short-lived H2O-H+···OH- ion-pairs is about 1024 L-1 (~1 M; about one in every 17 molecules of H2O at any instant).
So perhaps maintaining a constant DC voltage across the cell, then pulsing it with 1 THz (any frequency from ~1 GHz to 1 THz should be effective) would force ionization and prevent recombination. The 1 THz pulse would ionize ~1/17th of the water molecules immediately, and the DC voltage would force them apart, driving  the anions and cations toward the DC plates. Once anions and cations are more than approximately 2 water molecule widths apart, they will no longer be attracted to each other, minimizing recombination.

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_vibrational_spectrum.html
Water has absorption peaks at 17.98754388 GHz, 47.96679328 GHz, 50.365141 GHz and 106.4263758 GHz. Pure water becomes more and more transparent to electromagnetic energy as the frequency decreases, becoming effectively completely transparent at frequencies below ~1 GHz.

#### chuff1

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
That is a marvelous idea.

#### reverandkilljoy

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
good work cycle

you know the vibrational modes water is is in the ghz range, so the dipole relaxation time of water molecule is also in ghz range....

how you do transmit a ghz signal into the wfc using 40\$ worth of circuitry

#### onepower

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
reverandkilljoy
Quote
how you do transmit a ghz signal into the wfc using 40\$ worth of circuitry
Not only a clean ghz signal using 40\$ worth of circuitry but one generating a signal upwards of 30-50Kv.

Or... as is generally the case everyone may have everything completely backwards and it was not the circuit pumping the water capacitor but the water capacitor pumping the circuit. It is interesting to note that a capacitor stores energy, that is it's function and if it does not store energy but dissipates it then it's not a true capacitor. It is also interesting to note that if we pulse a true water capacitor then remove the source we can get almost all the energy back in another part of the circuit because it can act just like a real capacitor. The dissipation of energy is not the way and it should be avoided.

#### reverandkilljoy

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
a THZ signal is a laser LOL

#### chuff1

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
The easiest and cheapest way of producing Ghz frequencies is aGunn Diode.

#### reverandkilljoy

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
you cant transmit those kind of frequencies down a wire

#### chuff1

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
You would not transmit them down a wire, you would make a resonant cavity and shoot the frequency into the cavity which houses the dc electrodes.

#### Cycle

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
Terahertz waves lie at the far end of the infrared band, just before the start of the microwave band. They're the longer wavelengths in the infrared band. It's non-ionizing radiation, and it can't be transmitted very far in air... it'll reach maybe 20 feet.

So yes, we could use THz LEDs, and pulse them, but finding an LED which outputs the exact frequencies we need, at the power level we need, is going to be a pain.

An alternative is a tungsten bulb, which puts out broadband far-IR. But it's broadband IR, not narrow.

Another alternative is a Colpitts oscillator:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/226398548_fig1_Figure-1-Circuit-diagram-of-the-chaotic-Colpitts-oscillator
That'll go up to 9 GHz. With a diode and VIC, we've got 18 GHz, which can be fine-tuned to the 17.98754388 GHz absorption peak.

#### reverandkilljoy

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
thats pretty cool

problem with those LED's is i think they emit a broadband signal, very low power... my understanding is that terahertz radiation sources cost a lot of money

in my honest opinion even if you had an extremely high power terahertz source exactly tuned to a vibratory state of the water molecule nothig would happen

i think the collective oscillation is a lot different than a single atom oscillating...

remember thers no such thing as a liquid lasing medium

individual gas molecules has much less interactiont than water clusters etc....

just some thoughts

#### ~Russ

##### Re: x-filar coils and How Stan Meyer Did It.
@ reverandkilljoy

I removed your last 2 posts.

Take it eazy. Positive creditcisum is not calling others research poo...

A Guide in the right direction is nicely said...

Try again.

~Russ