Finally figured out why no one can get voltage on their cell in the 5 coil vic. It's very simple and you can check it out yourself. It's because the negative choke is not isolated from system ground and neither is the negative half of the water fuel cell. On every cycle the system builds voltage on the positive plate and the negative plate also builds a negative charge but during pulse on, the entire voltage is dumped back into the source impedance via system ground.
The VIC has to be isolated from the source impedance completely so that each step charge stays on the WFC. Stan has created a system on his 5 coil vic where the secondary and two chokes are isolated from the source impedance, not sure how he's done it but he definately has.
There is another way to overcome it though and that is by creating your own isolation transformer.
You will never build voltage onto the fuel cell unless you create an isolated circuit where the negative voltage cannot escape to system ground. Please read up about isolation transformers.
Stan creates a system where he chokes out an high impedance signal from a lower impedance signal but he totally isolates the circuit in which he captures the high impedance so that the voltage cannot escape to system ground.
R1 places a small load on the secondary of T1, enough load so that it is not open circuit and so that T2 can choke out the higher impedance signal. T2 chokes out the high impedance signal to the capacitor but the capacitor is isolated from system ground via the 1:1 isolation transformer T2.
Stan has created an isolation transformer within the vic so its actually two transformers in one but we can do it this way:

Please read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation

This is very doable for a test setup, but... wouldn't having a 2 coil VIC (primary & secondary on one core, both chokes on separate core) achieve the same isolation effect?

Quote from nav on June 4th, 2017, 06:48 AM

Finally figured out why no one can get voltage on their cell in the 5 coil vic. It's very simple and you can check it out yourself. It's because the negative choke is not isolated from system ground and neither is the negative half of the water fuel cell. On every cycle the system builds voltage on the positive plate and the negative plate also builds a negative charge but during pulse on, the entire voltage is dumped back into the source impedance via system ground.
The VIC has to be isolated from the source impedance completely so that each step charge stays on the WFC. Stan has created a system on his 5 coil vic where the secondary and two chokes are isolated from the source impedance, not sure how he's done it but he definately has.
There is another way to overcome it though and that is by creating your own isolation transformer.
You will never build voltage onto the fuel cell unless you create an isolated circuit where the negative voltage cannot escape to system ground. Please read up about isolation transformers.
Stan creates a system where he chokes out an high impedance signal from a lower impedance signal but he totally isolates the circuit in which he captures the high impedance so that the voltage cannot escape to system ground.
R1 places a small load on the secondary of T1, enough load so that it is not open circuit and so that T2 can choke out the higher impedance signal. T2 chokes out the high impedance signal to the capacitor but the capacitor is isolated from system ground via the 1:1 isolation transformer T2.
Stan has created an isolation transformer within the vic so its actually two transformers in one but we can do it this way:

Makes sense Thanks   NAV

Quote from Henne on June 4th, 2017, 05:19 PM

This is very doable for a test setup, but... wouldn't having a 2 coil VIC (primary & secondary on one core, both chokes on separate core) achieve the same isolation effect?

But we've been putting the diode in the wrong place. I'd been putting it between T1 and T2 and it should be between the secondary of T2 and L1. The 5 coil VIC if you wire it as per instructed cannot possibly isolate the voltage on the fuel cell from system ground because the negative choke has a direct path to the primary coil through the core. Therefore it will dump the voltage from the water fuel cell via back EMF at system impedance.
Stan must have isolated the primary from the other coils on the 5 coil VIC some how, either through galvanic isolation or another means. Trust me, the 5 coil VIC cannot and will not work unless you isolate the secondary/L1/L2 from the primary, otherwise the core will dump the capacitance back through system ground and it cannot step charge.
The way I realised this is very, very simple indeedy, I got a shock off one of the cell wires, not both but just the one wire. What does that tell you? It tells you that the cell is still referencing system ground and my body acted as that ground reference. If your cell is isolated and is step charging then it cannot possibly ever reference system ground and the only possible way you could get a shock if its isolated is if you touch both L1 and L2 wires.
Once isolated it is impossible to get a shock from just touching one wire. Think about it.

There are two ground references, the low impedance reference point through the resistor at R1 which is system reference and then there is an isolated reference of L2. If system reference ever connects with L2 reference then the capacitor will dump to system ground on every cycle. The capacitor ground reference must be isolated from system reference at all times. The diode stops the normal return path by blocking back emf but during the next forward EMF only T2 can see the wfc impedance and not T1. Therefore the voltage field will never ever reference system ground again. If you remove T1 from this system and make T2 a 1:6 step up as per normal 5 coil VIC it cannot and will not work. The reason it won't work is because even though you blocked back emf with the diode, the next forward cycle will reference L2 capacitor ground with the system ground and impedance back through the primary. So you get ...step charge- dump to ground- step charge - dump to ground - step charge - dump to ground.
We don't want that, we want - step charge - isolate - step charge - isolate- step charge - isolate. You cannot keep a charge on a capacitor plate if your system is continually referencing the capacitor to system ground.

I was getting 8kv on my cell with every cycle but I was dumping the voltage because it was referenced back to system ground on the next forward cycle when it should have stayed on the cell then being doubled to 16kv then 24kv then 32kv so on and so forth.
I never isolated the voltage field from the system which is what we all should have done all along and there are other ways to do it besides isolation transformers like Stan did. We can relay the voltage to isolate it or we can use SCR's to isolate it which is also what Stan did.

So Nav, is this occurring because the bobbins are not providing enough insulation between the windings and core?  Or the bobbin itself becomes a capacitor of sorts?

I'm a little confused because a typical transformer is by its very nature an isolation device.  This is what DC to DC convertors use routinely and even small ones can be good for 3kV isolation or more.

You got me wondering again about the core gap now.  Could this be where the hidden spark gap actually is, between the two cores?

Quote from Matt Watts on June 5th, 2017, 04:52 PM

So Nav, is this occurring because the bobbins are not providing enough insulation between the windings and core?  Or the bobbin itself becomes a capacitor of sorts?

I'm a little confused because a typical transformer is by its very nature an isolation device.  This is what DC to DC convertors use routinely and even small ones can be good for 3kV isolation or more.

You got me wondering again about the core gap now.  Could this be where the hidden spark gap actually is, between the two cores?

The capacitance on the cell happens at resonance after each high impedance pulse, i've seen it on the scope step charging the cell at resonance but during the next forward pulse the capacitance is referenced back to ground impedance and dumps the entire voltage potential back to ground potential. There needs to be two seperate ground references that are devided by the diode during back emf and isolation during forward emf.
On the 5 coil VIC, L2 is referenced not to an isolated ground state like it should be but its referenced to system ground if you build the VIC as per instructed.
When high impedance chokes filter unwanted signals from a lower impedance source they do so by being resonant at that high impedance then they dump the voltage or current via a capacitor into the ground of the lower impedance source. If you build the capacitor and the choke so that it cannot dump the voltage into the lower impedance ground then you need to isolate the capacitor from the source impedance ground totally and utterly because if you don't then the system with dump it to ground.
Isolation transformers seperate the T1 primary from T2 secondary so that there is no way the load impedance can be seen by T1 primary and there is no reference to source ground either, you cannot be electrocuted by touching one wire of the T2 isolation secondary even if you had your hand on T1, you can only be electrocuted by touching both wires of the T2 secondary. Therefore if you place L1 and L2 on an isolation transformer and L2 forms a new reference to ground state for that circuit then it's trapped there until you use a load to get rid of it. It cannot reference the original ground state of T1 because the primary of that original ground state is on another transformer and out of phase.

Ok, riding this train of thought...

• Would a good example of this setup be the same # of turns as a 'classic' 5 coil VIC, and move the primary & secondary to T1, and then between T1 & T2 simply put the same # of windings. How would one calculate the number of windings needed?
  
• Also, wouldn't adding 2 extra coils in the setup mess up the impedance calucations (based on current understandings)? Wouldn't we have to recalcute # of turns for each coil so the secondary side load matches the primary power output viewed from T1? (Total secondary resistance = Sec. + Choke 1 + Choke 2 + Feed Back +water RE (78.54)). Unless perhaps the impedance value of the primary of T2 would only need to be the impedance of the 2 coils, but that would mean a pretty big coil...
• Quote

  R1 places a small load on the secondary of T1, enough load so that it is not open circuit and so that T2 can choke out the higher impedance signal.

  The R1 value would correspond to what exactly?
  
• Where would the feedback coil fit into this? On T1 of T2?

How does this epiphany relate to your previous tests with the bifilar choke coils? I noticed in your recent videos you used two separate coils. In this setup, is the effect of the resistor still to the achieve the 'hairpin effect'?

Quote from Henne on June 7th, 2017, 11:03 AM

Ok, riding this train of thought...

• Would a good example of this setup be the same # of turns as a 'classic' 5 coil VIC, and move the primary & secondary to T1, and then between T1 & T2 simply put the same # of windings. How would one calculate the number of windings needed?
  
• Also, wouldn't adding 2 extra coils in the setup mess up the impedance calucations (based on current understandings)? Wouldn't we have to recalcute # of turns for each coil so the secondary side load matches the primary power output viewed from T1? (Total secondary resistance = Sec. + Choke 1 + Choke 2 + Feed Back +water RE (78.54)). Unless perhaps the impedance value of the primary of T2 would only need to be the impedance of the 2 coils, but that would mean a pretty big coil...
• The R1 value would correspond to what exactly?
  
• Where would the feedback coil fit into this? On T1 of T2?

How does this epiphany relate to your previous tests with the bifilar choke coils? I noticed in your recent videos you used two separate coils. In this setup, is the effect of the resistor still to the achieve the 'hairpin effect'?

I'm not set on this exact way of isolation, I have other ideas of isolation involving bifilars. The resistor at R1 is there for the same reason as I used a spark gap. It creates a lower impedance load for the secondary of T1 which seems to bring the chokes to life in as far as relinquishing their voltage. The impedance of a spark gap is approx 5k ohm, the chokes seem to be happier filtering an high impedance signal from a low impedance source to load such as a spark gap. Resistors still produce the same effect but i'm struggling to get the same voltage as I did with a spark gap in which I got 2kv + for absolutely zero current.
See here:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoE38d5zN0M&t=2s
I'm thinking of an isolation circuit with the spark gap installed at resonance like I achieved here testing the chokes:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNf-kS1ByDw
If I can keep the high voltage in the high impedance circuit I will have cracked it but at the moment the voltage is dumping to system ground on every cycle.

You see the LC resonance between the chokes and the cell? Well, my system should be taking those 2kv peaks achieved in the spark gap video and step charging the cell very quickly to working voltage but it isn't. One of two things are happening, first thought train is the diode, is the diode allowing an AC resonance to pass through it between the cell and the chokes? We know that diodes do allow AC to pass against the bias and if you look at the waveform it sure looks like a sine wave rather than anything else, in which case my voltage potential on the capacitor can only remain as DC. But in testing there is no DC on the cell during operation. Second thought process is system ground. If I ping the cell with 4 resonant peaks followed by a gate, the spark gap responds to the gate frequency quite well which brings the choke circuit into play at the higher resonant frequency, after each resonant peak from the transistor there follows the resonant sine wave shown in the above video, each batch of resonance presents a total of 2kv from my bifilar system into the cell BUT when the next resonant ping arrives from my transistor the cell dumps the voltage instead of doubling it to 4kv. There is only one place it can be dumped and that is through L2 choke back through system ground and then right back to the power company because that is where the actual loop ends.
When ever i'm at 'pulse on' my system dumps the capacitor voltage via the spark gap impedance back to the power company. I need to isolate the high impedance circuit from accessing the lower impedance circuit and that could be as simple as a phase issue or more complex isolation.