Finally we are absolutely on the brink of making history.
During more testing some things have finally being cleared up to answer many questions for many people.
It will answer Matt's resistance question and it will allow people to get their VIC working if you follow some simple steps, I kid you not.
Now where the hell do I start and how can I explain this easily? We begin with a question.
Why did I produce a 1000v on my cell with Matt's spark gap and why wouldn't it operate without a gate?
Any choke in any circuit in the world can only work when there are two line impedances. The main line impedance and an unwanted impedance you wish to choke. Stans circuit without a gate after the diode only produces one impedance figure which is an high frequency, high impedance signal. So ask yourself 'how can you choke this signal from the line without another signal being present'? The answer is you can't, you can choke low impedance out of an high impedance circuit or choke high impedance out of a low impedance circuit so for Stan to choke high impedance there has to be another low impedance signal present but where is it?
It's the gate
When we introduced the spark gap we created a low impedance circuit in parallel with the water fuel cell but it was not being driven by high frequency, it was driven by the low frequency of the gate and thats why when I turned off the gate the system shut down.
Did more testing with my new choke and a simple stand alone transformer yesterday night, basically I did the following circuit.

Now first things first lets get one thing absolutely clear
The most important thing is to feed current through the resistor at R1 at a low impedance and that means firstly that the resistor has to be the value of both choke's plus the secondary of the stand alone transformer and in my case it was 50ohms+50ohms+300ohms which was 400ohms. I had to use a variable to do it because I didn't have one. Start with voltage of 3v coming out of the tip3055 btw.
Then what you do is set the gate to 50% duty cycle width and this is your low impedance pulse not the main frequency and i'll explain why later. Play around with the gate frequency until you get the most current passing across the resistor R1 but not creating inductance in the choke core. Keep your main frequency nice and low while you do this testing. A nice tip: Use the air gaps in your choke core to change where the choke will and will not become inductive
The current of the gate is ignoring the inductors and only responding to the resistor R1 at this lower impedance value.
Now folks hold onto your hats
Let the circuit run with the gate where you set it with most current in the resistor R1 but start to increase the main pulse slowly, there is a point in frequency where the choke is able to be the most inductive at an higher frequency and it starts to absorb the high impedance/high frequency signal as inductance. Now you have two signals in the circuit, the leading edge of each gate is low impedance and the leading edge of each main pulse is high impedance. When you go up in voltage, the frequency of the main pulse and gate has to change so take it volt by volt, there is no PLL in my system.
The resonance of the chokes are nothing to do with an LC circuit, the resonance is where the chokes inductance and magnetising force is highest and choke the high frequency, high impedance pulse, the WFC is a dump capacitor from a low pass resonant filter.
We have fooled ourselves into thinking Stan's chokes were the main part of the circuit when in fact the low impedance Resistor in series with my secondary is the main part of the circuit and all we are doing is filtering an higher frequency from the circuit.
We filter it with an inductor and core that is most inductive at the unwanted frequency.
People, you need to build or start building and you need to hook up your scopes and look at what i'm saying.
Matt, thankyou so much for what you did with the spark gap because without the idea this would have never happened.
Let the fun begin. I'll make a vid soon but got lots of parts on order at moment, i'm going to drive a central heating system with it firstly.

This I like :thumbsup2:

Another thing you can do is this:
When you set the gate frequency turn off the main pulse so you just have a 3v 50% duty cycle pulse. Now get the current running through the resistor but not through the choke inductors and write the frequency down where this low impedance gate needs to be set.
The gate is the most important thing and you can also ping the chokes and there core on their own to see where they are inductive the most, the air gap becomes mega important which i realised a long time ago because it changes where cores are inductive or not inductive.

Quote from Lynx on May 2nd, 2017, 10:51 AM

This I like :thumbsup2:

Mark this spot because you're going to see things start to fly.

So, 2 separate cores (primary and secondary on first, chokes on second) with adjustable air gaps and the chokes are bifilar wound. Correct? Perhaps a setup like Russ showed in this vid?

I assume this would also work with the 5 coil VIC design, or are the 2 separate cores crucial?

Quote from Henne on May 2nd, 2017, 12:27 PM

So, 2 separate cores (primary and secondary on first, chokes on second) with adjustable air gaps and the chokes are bifilar wound. Correct? Perhas a setup like Russ showed in this vid?

I assume this would also work with the 5 coil VIC design, or are the 2 separate cores crucial?

I've stopped working with the 5 coil design and i'll tell you why. When the chokes are resonant at the induction frequency you wish to filter you cannot stop them coupling back up with the primary unless you isolate the primary from the core inductance, that is why when you look at the 5 core design you see a thin tall coil next to the secondary which people have said is the pickup coil. It's not the pickup coil, its the primary and it has a proximity coupled field with the secondary and is insulated underneath with nickel to stop the choke induction being coupled with the primary. The resistor in the estate pictures is not on the primary, its on the circuit where I have placed it above and it's there for the reason I said it is.
Who ever dismantled and took pictures of that 5 core VIC told some rather large porkies but you'd expect that when there's trillions of dollars at stake. TBH i'm expecting the plug to be pulled on these forums before we've finished.

Quote from nav on May 2nd, 2017, 01:07 PM

TBH i'm expecting the plug to be pulled on these forums before we've finished.

With Mr. Trump preparing to nuke North Korea, the plug is going to get pulled on a lot of things pretty soon.  The PTB are painted in a corner, everyone sees the lies, they have no other choice left but come clean and that will never happen.

So let's rock-n-roll guys.  Get this thing crank'n.

BTW, good research you are doing Nav.  Keep it up.  I'll print paper copies of all the good stuff in case I find myself working in an old abandoned shack some place.  The PTB will have to kill us to stop us now.

Quote from Matt Watts on May 2nd, 2017, 01:17 PM

With Mr. Trump preparing to nuke North Korea, the plug is going to get pulled on a lot of things pretty soon.  The PTB are painted in a corner, everyone sees the lies, they have no other choice left but come clean and that will never happen.

So let's rock-n-roll guys.  Get this thing crank'n.

BTW, good research you are doing Nav.  Keep it up.  I'll print paper copies of all the good stuff in case I find myself working in an old abandoned shack some place.  The PTB will have to kill us to stop us now.

Matt I can't thank you enough for the spark gap idea and even though the resistance was in parallel and on the high side for the circuit to be in tune it still caused the effect which led to this discovery. If i'd have got the spark gap resistance close to that of the secondary and chokes then the voltage would have risen on the cell but spark gaps are 5kohms or there abouts so I was trapped half way between a low impedance I needed for the gate and the high impedance I needed for the choke induction to work properly. When you tune it properly things begin to happen and i'm just so exited to be where I am at the moment but we need everyone on the case because I need a PLL badly.
The one thing I have sorted out though is I have a triggered gated pulse which is fantastically accurate so the leading edges of the main pulse are in phase with the gate, I can control it from the computer too via USB which allows me to produce a makeshift PLL. If I use a pickup coil on the chokes core, I can input the signal into the pulse gen so that none resonant conditions of that pulse can trigger frequency changes in both the gate and the main pulse but when I move this to a working model it will need to be put on an IC or PCB like Stan did. But as it stands i'm learning more and more and it's going great guns.

Matt what i'm thinking of doing is this:
When you increase voltage the gas production is higher and the dump capacitor's dielectric value changes. So you start off at three volts and the resonance moves, you tune back in manually and all is well, the value that the pickup coil gives to the pulse gen, i'm going to save it to memory and programme that saved value to trigger a frequency change to the correct value at 3v. Then i'm going to save every value volt by volt and use those values to trigger correct frequency changes right up to max voltage. My pulse gen allows me to do this 50 times then I can save that complex pattern into one programme.

So my pulse gen becomes a c'mos binary, where x inductance value from the pick up coil causes x value frequency response from the pulse gen. God I love new toys. :)

Just keep in mind the dielectric change of the water (for PLL purposes, if that is at all a factor in your design that is), which goes down from the 78 point something to roundabout 3 as HHO is being produced and starts bubbling between the plates/tubes.

Quote from Lynx on May 2nd, 2017, 02:39 PM

Just keep in mind the dielectric change of the water (for PLL purposes, if that is at all a factor in your design that is), which goes down from the 78 point something to roundabout 3 as HHO is being produced and starts bubbling between the plates/tubes.

I won't know what it truely is until I work a few things out at different voltages. But it definately changes the impedance of the circuit and the frequency has to be PLL'd to compensate, but there is a big difference now in what the circuit is, instead of being in an LC circuit on its own, the capacitance is now part of a dump circuit on an high pass filter and is a secondary circuit to another lower impedance circuit. This gives us more scope in what we are dealing with and we know how these circuits work, the only difference being of course is a normal dump capacitor is referenced to ground and this isn't, it's referenced to how quick it can dump its voltage into water.

From what you have said Nav, is it then necessary to have two PLLs:  One works the main signal and the other works the gating?

If so, this could be really tricky to pull off.

From the way I understand Stan's circuit, the gating isn't fixed, it is adjustable, but apparently doesn't need to be adjusted all that much to be in the ballpark.  Then when the throttle control is connected, the gating adjusts predictably along a predetermined range.  Now the main PLL in his design apparently tracks impurities in the water, temperature and such that need continual adjustment as environmental factors change.

Does that fit with what you are saying Nav?   Is the way Stan did this appear to be the correct way from what you are learning?

Quote from nav on May 2nd, 2017, 01:07 PM

I've stopped working with the 5 coil design and i'll tell you why. When the chokes are resonant at the induction frequency you wish to filter you cannot stop them coupling back up with the primary unless you isolate the primary from the core inductance, that is why when you look at the 5 core design you see a thin tall coil next to the secondary which people have said is the pickup coil. It's not the pickup coil, its the primary and it has a proximity coupled field with the secondary and is insulated underneath with nickel to stop the choke induction being coupled with the primary. The resistor in the estate pictures is not on the primary, its on the circuit where I have placed it above and it's there for the reason I said it is.
Who ever dismantled and took pictures of that 5 core VIC told some rather large porkies but you'd expect that when there's trillions of dollars at stake. TBH i'm expecting the plug to be pulled on these forums before we've finished.

"Another massive step forward." ?

Why would Don change the VIC electrical wiring? There is no evidence of other added material used for the VIC core and it's very clear the primary had an parallel resistor instead of the bifilar feedback coil. Only one side of the bifilar coil was used. The feedback had a +5V supply.

The 5 coil VIC doesn't have bifilar chokes, just single wire. Only the Injector VIC makes use of bifilar.

Don't invent new things on top of the known information from the TB and estate photographs.

~webmug

Nice work :cool:
Could we use a transformer for the circuit on the right?

Quote from Webmug on May 3rd, 2017, 07:01 AM

"Another massive step forward." ?

Why would Don change the VIC electrical wiring? There is no evidence of other added material used for the VIC core and it's very clear the primary had an parallel resistor instead of the bifilar feedback coil. Only one side of the bifilar coil was used. The feedback had a +5V supply.

The 5 coil VIC doesn't have bifilar chokes, just single wire. Only the Injector VIC makes use of bifilar.

Don't invent new things on top of the known information from the TB and estate photographs.

~webmug

The circuit works with single coils besides bifilars, but with bifilars you get to keep the circuit in series, if you use single coils then the resistance has to be parallel. Slight difference but i've tried both and both work and produce voltage on the cell.
Webmug, show me any series choke circuit from anywhere in the world out of any system that doesn't have two seperate line impedance frequencies and doesn't have a load for the frequency you wish to keep.
You cannot choke high impedance current and voltage from the same high impedance signal, you either choke low impedance from an high impedance circuit or high impedance from a low impedance circuit.
The only way you can do this is for a core to be reactive at high impedance and not reactive at low impedance. So the gate signal acts the same as a carrier wave on a am series tuned circuit and the high frequency acts like the modulation on the carrier wave. We know how to filter frequecies using transformer reactance but you will always need a load on the carrier wave or gate that runs at a lower impedance.
People are still going to try to get the 5 coil VIC working and i'm not saying it doesn't work, what i'm saying is that i've found an easier way and that's the direction i'm heading in. The phasing and induction in the 5 coil VIC is difficult to understand and comprehend, I want to understand on the scope what the choke is doing on it's own not on the VIC.

Quote from Alberto on May 3rd, 2017, 08:10 AM

Nice work :cool:
Could we use a transformer for the circuit on the right?

Alberto, you can use audio transformers, switch mode power transformers and cold cathode but i'd advise you build your own and I'll tell you why. Although audio transformers work great at the frequencies and Stan tells us this in the New Zealand video, there is a small problem, often they are not power transformers but impedance transformers and for a good power audio transformer it is quite expensive. When you build your choke, the core material must be good for the 4-20khz reactance.
There are three measurements you need to closely monitor on this system. Firstly you need to monitor the current going into R1 and the current across the positive side of the choke - across a frequency sweep at low frequency and when I say low frequency I mean 30 to 120hz. The choke must not be reactive at those frequency ranges or be hardly any reactance.
The system is running good when there is no current across the negative choke but maximum current across the resistor.
With the system running and the diode in place and running at low voltage make sure you are connected to a cell submerged in water. On the choke you built either bifilar with a series resistor or single coils with a parallel resistor, place a small pickup coil on the core of 30 gauge wire approx 5ohms. From this pickup coil place a 1 watt 5ohm shunt resistor but also have your amp meter in series so you can read the current going into the resistor.
Place channel one of your scope on the output of the pickup coil. Place channel 2 of your scope on the secondary of the transformer but after the diode and make sure your probe is capable of reading the output without voltage overload.
What you are looking for:-
During the leading edge of the gate, the low impedance circuit should be showing maximum current across the resistor at R1 and no inductance on the pickup coil but during the lead edge of the higher frequency signal which you are filtering there should be inductance on the pickup coil and the maximum current on the scope and meter. What you are looking at are the different reactive componants of the choke core during different stages of the pulse train. When you get to an high frequency in the KHz range where this phenomenon takes place then you have created a bog standard low pass filter which DIY audio people and ham radio operators build every day. There is no secrets or anything magic about these circuits.
Once the choke begins to filter the high impedance signal out of the circuit it will begin to dump it during the pulse off time of the circuit at the same frequency at which it filtered it.
Now the next bit is important. The rate at which it dumps the voltage is governed by the rate at which a capacitor can recieve it and its dielectric property. Stan built a pair of capacitor plates that were adjustable and he could change the reactance of the capacitor to match the reactance of the choke because pushing plates closer and further apart changes the dielectric field constant. For example, 5mm of air is vastly different from 1mm of air, 5mm of water is vastly different from 1mm of water and the reason is each electric field on each plate applys a pressure on the other and this pressure changes with proximity.
You can build a cell with series tubes but to get it right in the beginning there has to be adjustment somewhere and once the adjustment is configured then a finite overhaul figure can be obtained.

Quote from Matt Watts on May 2nd, 2017, 05:55 PM

From what you have said Nav, is it then necessary to have two PLLs:  One works the main signal and the other works the gating?

If so, this could be really tricky to pull off.

From the way I understand Stan's circuit, the gating isn't fixed, it is adjustable, but apparently doesn't need to be adjusted all that much to be in the ballpark.  Then when the throttle control is connected, the gating adjusts predictably along a predetermined range.  Now the main PLL in his design apparently tracks impurities in the water, temperature and such that need continual adjustment as environmental factors change.

Does that fit with what you are saying Nav?   Is the way Stan did this appear to be the correct way from what you are learning?

No there are not two PLL's as such, what i'm saying is that when you step up in voltage and the PLL tracks the circuit response, if the frequency increases or decreases then there are either more high frequency peaks or less high frequency peaks in the time that the gate allows, the gate doesn't change in frequency as such but it does allow more or less HF peaks by default. But there arises a latency problem in this and i've just been watching how my pulse gen deals with it.
The latency problem is this: If you have a gate of 60 hz and the main pulse is 2khz, at 50% duty cycle width on the gate, you end up with an exact amount of 2khz pulses in the gap. Now imagine the PLL drops the frequency a tad to 1.95khz for any specific reason, you will not fit an exact amount of 1.95khz pulses in the gap anymore because they don't fit. Now my new pulse gen being the clever box of tricks that it is deals with the latency issue quite well, it either expands or contracts the gate a tad to fit the rest of the signal in. That way you don't end up with chopped up phasing of the main pulse.
Stan must have encountered this problem at some stage.

Well you're in luck then, because that is exactly what U5.2 does in my VIC Driver v5.

It makes sure the pulse width never gets truncated.

And Nav, if you'll PM me your address, I'll be happy to send you one of my boards to play with.  No charge.  It's the least I can do for all the hard work you have shared on this project.

Kind offer Matt. I'll take you up on that and i'll pm you my address later. Just had a couple of hours building my project box and just finished the circuit for the pickup coil, through a resistor and the amp meter. This circuit will tell me exactly when i'm coming away from maximum reactance in the choke core and when i'm smack on the button.

This is a pretty good video showing how the standing waves form in a transmission line.  Mostly for reference as a practical refresher when the mind losses focus or encounters information overload.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4T5KKQjz0s

Matt, the resistor on the estate photo's that is marked 220 ohm and has a code 411 9037. I'm finding it difficult to track it down, you don't know the exact componant do you?
The only one I can find with that code is a 5000 ohm version.
https://maraindustrial.com/cart/electrical/resistors/clarostat-vp50k-vp50k-resistor-5000-new-no-box.html