Muller Style Motor/Dynamo

AcidByte

Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« on June 20th, 2016, 06:13 AM »
For educational purpose i desided to work on a muller style motor/dynamo.
As i still see some possibility's on this type of design wich i have not yet seen (if im wrong please correct me :) or some me.)
Most replication i've seen on this type of design are using 1 or to coils to drive the motor and using the other to generate the potential.
This is one way to approach this machine.
But i have a other one in my mind.
I think instead of 2 coils being the motor.
Why not let all coils be the motor.
if you have for instance 10 magnets and 9 coil pairs.
for 1 full rotation would mean 90 pulses.
wich gives you the ability to make such micro small pulses.
because of these small pulses you will still be able to get a substantial amount of potential from the magnet swinging away (or to the core depending on the attraction or repultion mode) from the core.

So what i am planning to do is make a 9 coil paired muller dynamo with 9 switching circuits to run the motor.
And then just see what efficiency i can get out of this expirience :)

What will i do:
- i will provide this topic with information/part list/3d printer files/updates on progress and everything you can think off thats needed to replicate this.
This project will be completely opensource.

What can you do:
- come with posible ideas to try i am very open to all sorts of ideas aslong as it's within my reach (mainly cost wise.)
- discuss the subject.

In my next post i will provide picture's and some of the details i have on progress so far. (im still building so dont have anything running for a few weeks

>>> Jeroen
Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #1, on June 20th, 2016, 07:21 AM »Last edited on July 9th, 2016, 06:52 AM
Here are some of the first 3d models with instructions on getting them to print the right size.
As i got some issue's with exporting the 3d models from 3dsmax to .stl files i have some specific instruction on getting the file to print in the right size.
Still to come is a set of timing discs
and a top to mount the prints.
I have build them to the basics but they need some adjustments and i need to verify printing before i will post them with instructions.

The rotor has slots for 10 Neo magnets 10mm * 20mm
The spool form has a slot for a ferrite core 8mm * 50mm (10mm to fit it in the frame)
The frame and the rotor have slots for roller ball bearings i only use the slots in the frame though.

The Rotor:
X axis multiply by 12.7
Y axis multiply by 12.7
Z axis multiply by 16

The Frame:
X axis multiply by 12.7
Y axis multiply by 12.7
Z axis multiply by 14.5

The Frame Foot:
X axis multiply by 12.7
Y axis multiply by 12.7
Z axis multiply by 16
rotate X axis 180 degree

Coilform Top and Bottom
X axis multiply by 14.5
Y axis multiply by 14.5
Z axis multiply by 20


Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #2, on June 20th, 2016, 07:29 AM »
Did some assemble on the parts i already have.
Everything fits together nicely.
Spools are made of 0.85mm diameter copper.
Going 6 layers for the full length then 6 layers for 2/3 of the length and last 6 layers for 1/3 of the length.
This comes down to some 350 turns on the spool.

With only 3 coils on the frame i can already feel a low magnetic drag on the cores wich is very nice :)
Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #3, on June 20th, 2016, 08:06 AM »Last edited on June 22nd, 2016, 12:54 PM
Because im interrested in what super small pulses will do (or wont do hehehe :P)
i will be triggering the coils with a hall sensor triggered one shot driver.
i came up with this basic schematic.
using a 555 in one shot mode (wich can be modified to set the time on the shot cycle.)
Basicly im gonna need 9 of these boards to supply all 9 coil pais.

NOTE ( this circuit does not work propper... pin 4 of the 555 does not go to positive rail.
but in stead to the hall sensor output.
also a capacitor is missing comming from pin 2 of the 555 going to ground.
im building a new circuit soon)

Any suggestions?

note that the board layout is a little bit different then the schematic.
i got rid of the + and - supply to the hallsensor so J2 has 2 pins less
also the board shows the MOSFET
this wont be the real case either.
The FET will be mounted on a heatsink with only the gate signal coming from the board.
also this circuit is snot yet tested so i dont know if it will work hehehe ill update on that later.

Matt Watts

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #4, on June 20th, 2016, 10:46 AM »
Quote from AcidByte on June 20th, 2016, 08:06 AM
Any suggestions?
Yeah.

You want to add a generator winding of a much higher inductance to each low inductance motor winding.  This enables transformer action.  Dump any kind of ferrous core and just use air.  The next step is to increase your motor consumption as much as possible.  Sounds crazy I know, but I'm working with a guy in Germany that has been following this patent:
http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2689.0;attach=13078

We're not far from an actual looper.

My bad, I'm assuming you might actually want a free energy device.  Some people don't.  If you're one of "those guys", please ignore this post.  When I get excited, I tend to get a little pushy.  Trying hard to change the err of my ways.   :)

AcidByte

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #5, on June 20th, 2016, 11:33 AM »
Quote from Matt Watts on June 20th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Yeah.

You want to add a generator winding of a much higher inductance to each low inductance motor winding.  This enables transformer action.  Dump any kind of ferrous core and just use air.  The next step is to increase your motor consumption as much as possible.  Sounds crazy I know, but I'm working with a guy in Germany that has been following this patent:
http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2689.0;attach=13078

We're not far from an actual looper.

My bad, I'm assuming you might actually want a free energy device.  Some people don't.  If you're one of "those guys", please ignore this post.  When I get excited, I tend to get a little pushy.  Trying hard to change the err of my ways.   :)
Well i just like to build pulse motors so no it wont have to self run.
Would be nice but as i said it is for educational purpose :)

so you say put a extra spool of wire on the same core?
think i need to change wire then no more space left.
maybe i will make a second frame with some other spools.
would be nice trying some different setups

alloytam

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #6, on June 20th, 2016, 01:30 PM »
good post man,
can try take input as constant(increasingly) to check the RPM with
1.free coil(free spin)
2.all coil, or by adding 1 by 1 coil
3.coil with circuit
4.complete all with varies load
once has complete all the coil winding
so can do some comparison here or the behavior ,
heheeee....
sorry for request too much
cheers

AcidByte

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #7, on June 21st, 2016, 11:24 AM »
Quote from alloytam on June 20th, 2016, 01:30 PM
good post man,
can try take input as constant(increasingly) to check the RPM with
1.free coil(free spin)
2.all coil, or by adding 1 by 1 coil
3.coil with circuit
4.complete all with varies load
once has complete all the coil winding
so can do some comparison here or the behavior ,
heheeee....
sorry for request too much
cheers
not to much requests mate :)
do you mean by free coil that no coils are actually on the frame?
if so thats the first step i will be skipping hehehe as 3 coils are allready epoxy'd on the frame. (i can do that later when i will be making a second frame for Matt Watts his suggestion.
Ofcouse first i will be testing the current build.
anyways when i finished making all of the components (including coils/switching circuits) i will be posting various measurements in different conditions.

alloytam

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #8, on June 23rd, 2016, 04:01 AM »
yup,
cause i suspect,
the coil it self has dragging
maybe to little on one coil,
but when it has 18coil , it different story...

i use hot glue for sticking those coil,
try design with locking instead gluing....
you know...
it make convenient for other future project

cheers

AcidByte

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #9, on June 23rd, 2016, 10:51 AM »Last edited on June 23rd, 2016, 11:26 PM
Quote from alloytam on June 23rd, 2016, 04:01 AM
yup,
cause i suspect,
the coil it self has dragging
maybe to little on one coil,
but when it has 18coil , it different story...

i use hot glue for sticking those coil,
try design with locking instead gluing....
you know...
it make convenient for other future project

cheers
Well actually the more coils i put on the less the core drag will become
because of the difference in coils versus magnets.
as my magnets are set to every 36 degree and the coils are set to every 40 degree
and then i also have magnets on the core in repulsion to the rotor magnets
causing it to cancel out most of the drag.
i am gonna use attraction mode on the motor part of this.
with the stator magnets repulsing it when the coil is off.
i finished a new driver circuit wich seem to work pretty well.
will post the schematic soon. its a very simple one :)
good for now.
i am thinking of switching to arduino controlled pulsing.
have done that on a motor before and it gave me great results as far as controlling the pulse width and delay time of a pulse.
this will make it easier for me to align the hall sensors.
got to do some programming on the arduino software though to make it fit for 9 inputs switching 9 outputs.
thats gonna be a hard one. lol

For the time being i will use this circuit to run before i finished the arduino script

hydniq

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #10, on June 25th, 2016, 11:26 AM »
very nice work

AcidByte

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #11, on June 26th, 2016, 10:41 AM »Last edited on June 26th, 2016, 02:29 PM
Quote from Matt Watts on June 20th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Yeah.

You want to add a generator winding of a much higher inductance to each low inductance motor winding.  This enables transformer action.  Dump any kind of ferrous core and just use air.  The next step is to increase your motor consumption as much as possible.  Sounds crazy I know, but I'm working with a guy in Germany that has been following this patent:
http://open-source-energy.org/?action=dlattach;topic=2689.0;attach=13078

We're not far from an actual looper.

My bad, I'm assuming you might actually want a free energy device.  Some people don't.  If you're one of "those guys", please ignore this post.  When I get excited, I tend to get a little pushy.  Trying hard to change the err of my ways.   :)
i tried you idea with my bedini motor (8 coiler)
its now running quarter wave from its output
got it to fire a spark gap
gonna see what i can do with its output!
ill get back on that to you

edit: it fried the transistors LOL
Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #12, on July 20th, 2016, 03:24 PM »
Spend a lot of time on the Motor/Dynamo last few days and got some updates on the build.
At the moment doing a lot of work on the build
Since last time the driver board and half bridges for the coil pairs also have been changed. (have to write a propper sketch for that so that will follow up later)
Also i have finished some more model files for the part printing.
The frame plate for the caps wasnt right needed to drill the holes for the mount a little bigger so ill post that one later. (or i guess you can use the mounting frame stl for it i havnt tried.)

Model corrections
Muller Frame Mounting
X multiply by 12.7
Y multiply by 12.7
Z multiply by 16

Muller Timing Disc
X multiply by 12.7
Y multiply by 12.7
Z multiply by 14

Muller Timing Disc 2
X multiply by 12.7
Y multiply by 12.7
Z multiply by 16

Lynx

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #13, on July 20th, 2016, 09:10 PM »
Real nice :thumbsup:

AcidByte

Re: Muller Style Motor/Dynamo
« Reply #14, on July 22nd, 2016, 01:12 PM »
Quote from Lynx on July 20th, 2016, 09:10 PM
Real nice :thumbsup:
Thanks man :)
already thinking of changing the rotor hehehe.
zero tipped me on that one.
he said if the muller worked.
it was missing a electro static component.
so im gonna make a rotor out of phenolic material.
did some research and it seemed that adams used phenolic material for his rotor aswell.
allong with lead (shaped in the size of the magnets) in between the magnets (spaced evenly)
think i might give it a try :)