Rav did a great job posting links to some very useful information there while we were studying about this subject.
Common mode chokes and Stans circuits.
nav
Re: Common mode chokes and Stans circuits.
« Reply #26, on November 9th, 2015, 03:46 AM »Last edited on November 9th, 2015, 03:47 AM
Good Job Nav,
I'm thinking we talked about Common mode before here.
here is a link:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=876.msg16553#msg16553
have a good look and see what you think. any how, keep going, the only way to know it test!
~Russ
I'm interested to see how you could scale this process down into the spark plug size Stan had for his buggy. I think if you were pinging the inductors with either an harmonic or pinging them with their self resonant frequency and the cell is also resonant by acting like a transmission line, one tube inside the other then we would be talking in frequencies of 400Mhz to a gig.
Instead of looking at common mode chokes designed for switching supplies maybe we should be looking at common mode chokes for stuff operating at UHF frequencies like TV's and radio equipment or the old analog cell phones.
nav
Re: Common mode chokes and Stans circuits.
« Reply #27, on November 9th, 2015, 03:09 PM »Last edited on November 9th, 2015, 03:14 PM
Stans tubes resemble a resonant cavity band pass filter quite a lot. His whole system is looking to me like a filtering circuit from a transmission line maybe UHF. The common mode chokes are designed to filter harmonics from the electronics and he's sending the filtered harmonics into a resonant cavity designed to filter frequencies from transmission lines. For example at 145Mhz the 3rd harmonic is 435Mhz which is a nuisance on repeaters so they use resonant cavity filters to get rid of them. The filter is a tube inside a tube design like Stan's tubes. So all Stan does perhaps is create a strong 19th harmonic on say 20Khz which is 380Mhz, have his two inductors tuned to be self resonant at that frequency then send the signal into a resonant cavity filter tuned at that frequency. The walls of those resonant cavity filters create high voltage electric fields.
Today I experimented with a common mode choke built into a 450Mhz transmission line, the choke was on a toroid. I built a tube in tube resonant filter and added it to the toroid inductor, When I pressed transmit on my UHF walky talky the toroid filters are resonant at 450Mhz and filter the voltage into the tubes, my wire was too thick and too lossy to see a instant reply but has i held the key for longer periods I could see the capitance step charge and as soon as it passed one volt I got bubbles of gas appearing. Just hope I havn't wrecked my UHF transceiver. When you moved the antenna really close to the receiving cable the voltage shot up and more gas bubbles.
Stan is definately using self resonant common mode chokes, whether he pings it with an harmonic or the actual resonant frequency of those chokes I don't know but I know this; if you build a resonant cavity filter properly and tune it to the inductors then you will build a large electric field on the tubes of that cavity.
Research continues......
BTW, my antenna on the roof is a colinear 2m/70cm job. When I connect my choke to the coax of that antenna and placed a bog standard capacitor across the choke, you can see the voltage climb on the cap from the 34mv line voltage to 700mv before it is overcome by resistive loss in the network, this is because the antenna is picking up transmissions which my choke filters and charges the cap with.
Today I experimented with a common mode choke built into a 450Mhz transmission line, the choke was on a toroid. I built a tube in tube resonant filter and added it to the toroid inductor, When I pressed transmit on my UHF walky talky the toroid filters are resonant at 450Mhz and filter the voltage into the tubes, my wire was too thick and too lossy to see a instant reply but has i held the key for longer periods I could see the capitance step charge and as soon as it passed one volt I got bubbles of gas appearing. Just hope I havn't wrecked my UHF transceiver. When you moved the antenna really close to the receiving cable the voltage shot up and more gas bubbles.
Stan is definately using self resonant common mode chokes, whether he pings it with an harmonic or the actual resonant frequency of those chokes I don't know but I know this; if you build a resonant cavity filter properly and tune it to the inductors then you will build a large electric field on the tubes of that cavity.
Research continues......
BTW, my antenna on the roof is a colinear 2m/70cm job. When I connect my choke to the coax of that antenna and placed a bog standard capacitor across the choke, you can see the voltage climb on the cap from the 34mv line voltage to 700mv before it is overcome by resistive loss in the network, this is because the antenna is picking up transmissions which my choke filters and charges the cap with.
nice work testing Nav
"Stan is definately using self resonant common mode chokes"
i think your on the right track.
keep plugin away experimentally. i look forward to your findings.
i could send you some coils and bobbins too if you want to play with it...
~Russ
"Stan is definately using self resonant common mode chokes"
i think your on the right track.
keep plugin away experimentally. i look forward to your findings.
i could send you some coils and bobbins too if you want to play with it...
~Russ
Effects of Harmonics on Power Systems
Oct 1, 1999 Sankaran, C. | Electrical Construction and Maintenance
'A more serious condition, with potential for substantial damage, occurs as a result of harmonic resonance. Resonant conditions are created when the inductive and capacitive reactances become equal in an electrical system. Resonance in a power system may be classified as series or parallel resonance, depending on the configuration of the resonance circuit. Series resonance produces voltage amplification and parallel resonance causes current multiplication within an electrical system. In a harmonic rich environment, both types of resonance are present. During resonant conditions, if the amplitude of the offending frequency is large, considerable damage to capacitor banks would result. And, there is a high probability that other electrical equipment on the system would also be damaged'.
Harmonics at resonance produce massively high voltages which need to be put to ground and kept out of systems.
In a series network of 250v, subsequent resonant harmonics can produce voltages of more than 10,000v where there is distributed even inductance and capacitance within the inductors.
Self resonant common mode chokes have these qualities in series resonant circuits and if the tubes are tuned to the same resonance they will be subjected to incredibly high voltages. Eric Dollard calls this 'an electrostatic takeover' when a condition occurs where current is zero, impedance is really high and voltage takes off towards infinity.
Voltage basically takes over your network.
Oct 1, 1999 Sankaran, C. | Electrical Construction and Maintenance
'A more serious condition, with potential for substantial damage, occurs as a result of harmonic resonance. Resonant conditions are created when the inductive and capacitive reactances become equal in an electrical system. Resonance in a power system may be classified as series or parallel resonance, depending on the configuration of the resonance circuit. Series resonance produces voltage amplification and parallel resonance causes current multiplication within an electrical system. In a harmonic rich environment, both types of resonance are present. During resonant conditions, if the amplitude of the offending frequency is large, considerable damage to capacitor banks would result. And, there is a high probability that other electrical equipment on the system would also be damaged'.
Harmonics at resonance produce massively high voltages which need to be put to ground and kept out of systems.
In a series network of 250v, subsequent resonant harmonics can produce voltages of more than 10,000v where there is distributed even inductance and capacitance within the inductors.
Self resonant common mode chokes have these qualities in series resonant circuits and if the tubes are tuned to the same resonance they will be subjected to incredibly high voltages. Eric Dollard calls this 'an electrostatic takeover' when a condition occurs where current is zero, impedance is really high and voltage takes off towards infinity.
Voltage basically takes over your network.
what if there is an air gap in the core ?
securesupplies
Re: Common mode chokes and Stans circuits.
« Reply #31, on December 27th, 2015, 05:55 AM »
very nice explanation Nav
Effects of Harmonics on Power Systems
Oct 1, 1999 Sankaran, C. | Electrical Construction and Maintenance
'A more serious condition, with potential for substantial damage, occurs as a result of harmonic resonance. Resonant conditions are created when the inductive and capacitive reactances become equal in an electrical system. Resonance in a power system may be classified as series or parallel resonance, depending on the configuration of the resonance circuit. Series resonance produces voltage amplification and parallel resonance causes current multiplication within an electrical system. In a harmonic rich environment, both types of resonance are present. During resonant conditions, if the amplitude of the offending frequency is large, considerable damage to capacitor banks would result. And, there is a high probability that other electrical equipment on the system would also be damaged'.
Harmonics at resonance produce massively high voltages which need to be put to ground and kept out of systems.
In a series network of 250v, subsequent resonant harmonics can produce voltages of more than 10,000v where there is distributed even inductance and capacitance within the inductors.
Self resonant common mode chokes have these qualities in series resonant circuits and if the tubes are tuned to the same resonance they will be subjected to incredibly high voltages. Eric Dollard calls this 'an electrostatic takeover' when a condition occurs where current is zero, impedance is really high and voltage takes off towards infinity.
Voltage basically takes over your network.
I am an Electrical Engineer and I've always noticed all the chokes are are common mode chokes, with the voltages dumped into the capacitor.
In SMPS, high volatge spikes occur due to harmonics and wave reflections, so common mode chokes are used to short them to ground.
I believe Meyer was just using them instead of shorting them to ground.
Paper on Common Mode Noise: http://www.murata.com/~/media/webrenewal/products/emc/emifil/knowhow/26to30.ashx
