I've just been doing some work with a bifilar coil and they do indeed shut down the core EXACTLY the same as opposite bucking coils. We are now so close to getting there I can literally taste it.
Please read the schematic and my explanation in steps. I'll show you how to cut the amps off and charge the cell.
There are six stages and I will describe each stage.
1. The primary is pulsed with voltage (and you can see where we are with the voltage pulse stage indicator in the bottom left corner). At this stage there is no voltage on the cell. The secondary and bifilar choke are pulse charging and the core see's the bifilar choke as one wire going in the same direction.
2. There is a current change at the primary and we know that both the secondary and the bifilar will collapse into voltage but with a superb twist. The diode in between the the secondary and the bifilar cause the voltage collapse to be directional so that a Q+ charge hits one of the cell plates.
This directional path causes voltage to move in opposite directions on the wires of the bifilar coil right at the beginning of the voltage discharge at resonance. The result is that the combined voltage of the secondary and the bifilar coil are high enough to cause the network core to have a magnetic lock and the core is effectively shut down at this stage. We now know that if the voltage is high enough on a bifilar and you combine it with a series diode and a load, magnetic flux opposes itself inside the coil north to north and south to south.  Because there is no magnetic flux path back to the primary, the primary cannot see the load impedance. The lock will be long enough to charge the cell voltage to a certain factor at resonance before it shuts down. Gas production has begun at this stage. Note: Not all of the voltage goes into the cell, some of it is wasted with the magnetic flux lock but the primary can't see this.
3. The voltage in the cell is not high enough to lock the flux in the core and the core is open again and the same sequence is repeated but this time we already have voltage on the cell.
The primary pulses the core for the second time.
4. Again the combined voltage of the secondary and the bifilar lock the core so that the input cannot see the load impedance. This time the cell charges even more at resonance but still there isn't enough voltage on the cell to lock the core at the next stage.
5. The voltage on the cell is getting higher and again the primary pulses the core, same sequence again.
6. Finally we charge the cell so that the voltage is high enough to temporarily shut the core off for a period of time. At this point there has been much confusion as to what happens next. I've suggested that the cell and the bifilar continue at resonance sending the voltage exponentially higher but there are problems. Firstly the whole thing would run out of control because there would be no way to control the voltage from this point unless you put a spark gap in parallel with it to ground which in fact may be it but I strongly doubt. We have already step charged the cell so that it shuts off the core flux and the primary has no idea what the hell's going on. If it had extended resonance after the step charge shuts down the core temporarily, there would be no further need for any primary charging at all.
In all honesty I think the exponential value comes from the below stages because the bigger you build your coils and core the bigger the exponential voltage you can play with and we've seen from schematics that the gate is followed by more primary pulses.
So we must assume that the gas production in the cell below uses all the energy out of the cell until it allows the core to open again at the networks base voltage, then you pulse the primary again.
So once again I will remind people:
1. Build your bifilar coil first and find its true impedance and where it is self resonant.
2. Match the cell impedance to the coil impedance while at resonance.
3. The secondary is a dead short during resonance so not impedance matched.
4. The width of your V- on your primary is the width of the resonance period, so make it an adjustable pulse width.
Things we have found out this week:-
1. The combined voltage of the secondary and the bifilar will shut your core down with enough voltage left over to step charge the cell to a percentage but not enough to shut the core down for any length of time initially.
2. The very last pulse from the primary before the gate will be the one that puts enough juice into the network to cause the cell to finally shut the core down for a length of time (the gate)
3. During the gate, the cell will do work until the voltage drops low enough to allow the core to open again and we start all over again.
All I can say now is, Now we have a build off on our hands.

 

There is a saying, To master a subject, teach that subject. Looks like you are getting better at teaching/mastering now.

There is a pulse pickup coil in Stan's circuit, Which has been named as resonance pickup coil. Could it be core shutdown/available detector coil, telling when to start and stop gating.

Quote from realtry on December 29th, 2014, 01:23 PM

There is a saying, To master a subject, teach that subject. Looks like you are getting better at teaching/mastering now.

There is a pulse pickup coil in Stan's circuit, Which has been named as resonance pickup coil. Could it be core shutdown/available detector coil, telling when to start and stop gating.

That's exactly what it does. It will show pulses when the core shuts quickly at v- on the primary and wider pulses at the gate.

Quote from nav on December 29th, 2014, 02:11 PM

That's exactly what it does. It will show pulses when the core shuts quickly at v- on the primary and wider pulses at the gate.

interesting. can you please make a handwritten diagram showing the timing of the resonant pickup coil in relation to the pulse output few pulses before gating?

nice work Nav,

what type of cell are you using currently and what is the rate of gas your seeing? this was we have something to shoot for!

i like the description. will think through this more. 

God Speed! ~Russ

@Russ, Nav might not be having the system ready yet. But the theory looks a lot more promising now. Efficiency of the system looks lot more dependent on the core and the dielectric coating of the coils based on this theory.

@Nav, @All
Questions i am still pondering over,

Difference between bifilar coil and bucking coil, http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/bifvsbuk.htm

Two theories going on lately,
Nav's,  +ve choke & -ve choke, bifilar coil setup or
GPS's sec aiding +ve choke &  -ve choke bucking coil setup.

In bifilar we look for complete flux cancellation, in bucking we look for one direction only cancellation, during the ON or OFF stage.

Nav's logic runs through complete flux cancellation and core shut off.
GPS's logic runs through one direction only flux cancellation or one direction only flux flow set up. Did he improve this logic with 2 core set up. Basically he is answering the question of what happens to the bucking coil if they end up in different cores. Does the logic of flux flow in one direction only does better to energy build up with the 2 core set up.

In GPS set up during pulse off instead of complete flux cancellation and core shut off, the 2 cores end up letting the coils build up energy freely by letting the flux flow freely in one direction only, there by aiding the process of energy oscillation between cell and coil, may be between magnetic energy of coil core and static energy of cell. In which case GPS 2 core bucking coil set up could result in better performance.

What GPS's hasn't let us know, or something he wants us to figure out is how to achieve this flux cancellation during on or off stage perfectly or accurately, so that the ground happens to be exactly in the middle between sec and -ve choke. Which indirectly means that the flux of both sides doesn't unnecessarily over powers other and reduce the performance.

In GPS set up the sec and +ve choke are aiding so they might have higher flux, which should be cancelled by the -ve choke. When you reason properly -ve choke should end up being bigger, but by being in different cores do they alleviate the pain of accuracy in cancellation. i.e winding the coil accurately to cancel the flux of opposite side.

By GPS's logic of running around the cell impedance and building coil gets you in a direction of fixed performance.
But Nav's logic of building the coils and impedance matching cell might get you variable performance for good or bad.

Rest of the theory on what happens between the cell and coil, Nav still rules there.

Nav, What are your thoughts, am i heading to the light or dark :)

Let me state this for the record, My two core setup was just to show myself it could be done and also be different from the way Stan and others were doing it. There where no one doing it this way and I knew people could not say I stole the information from them. This can be done in different way's, and that's the reason I have never got into any argument with anyone how they were doing it. When you understand what is going on you can make it with one core or as many coils and cores as you like. I still would like to someday order longer leg cores to put everything on, I broke my Flat C cores, so that was another reason I had to use the two core setup.

I've tested bucking coils comprehensively and now I'm testing bifilar.
The only difference between a bifilar coil and a two coil setup is this:
The two coil set up will allow voltage from the primary like any other coil arrangement to charge the core, when they collapse, their nature is to collapse in opposition and they will shut down the core if the voltage is high enough. Like GPS says, when and where you wish them to shut down the core is down to the designer, they can shut down the core after primary pulses or they can shut down the core from resonant pulses. It is dependent where the voltage is on the system. The other thing to take note of with bucking coils is this: If the impedance between them is a mismatch, you can use one of them to block the back emf path and combine the other with secondary voltage to charge the cell.
The whole idea is to stop the primary from seeing the load impedance. Therefore, depending on impedance on the coils you can use them in any design to choke the core flux.
So if you look at Stan's 3-23 you can see how they operate in your mind just by looking at the schematic. Think about the impedance of the coils.
Bifilar coils are different in this respect: If you wind them evenly, the distributed capacitance and inductance is a perfect match inside the coil. This means that when the coil collapses the output from each wire is identical, there is no impedance mismatch in the coil.
Now, if you allow voltage to travel in two directions on the wires in the coil, at the point of collapse, the wires behave like the left to right rule and the resulting magnetic field is opposite.
But they are not opposite in one massive obvious flux lock like on bucking coils but the locks are in nodes between the windings. In a bifilar there are hundreds and hundreds of these distributed nodes and when they are added up mathematically they are the same in comparison to the bucking coils and will shut down the core OR restrict it depending on where the voltage is.
The reason I stated that it is advisable to build a cell after building a bifilar is this: The impedance inside a bifilar at a certain frequency is fixed, there is no way you can alter its impedance unless you build a variable one. If the impedance is fixed at its resonant frequency then it is better to build the cell afterward and impedance match the cell. If you built the cell first and the bifilar second, because the coil is not adjustable and if your not in the impedance ball park, its gonna be difficult to match.
About the gamma match. Lets just say you build a bifilar and its happy at 12Mhz, it is self resonant at that frequency. You test the impedance at that frequency and it is 100ohms. You then build a cell where all the tubes combined are 80ohms. The gamma match will allow you to tune the tubes from 80 up to 100ohms or slightly above just in case you need it.
To build a gamma match is not difficult, basically it runs either in series or parallel with the cells and acts the same as a potentiometer on a dc network. Two tubes, one inside the other just like the cell tubes. There is a dielectric layer between the tubes, usually Teflon. As you slide one tube inside the other it brings impedance up or down in systems that operate around 50 - 100ohms. You can do this outside of the cell or in the water but in the water you would need to remove the Teflon and use water as the dielectric. If you do this you would need to provide spacing between the tubes so they do not short out.
So to sum up: Both bifilar and bucking coils will allow you to turn off the core of a network at a given time, specified by where the voltage is on the system at the time. When and where the voltage is on that system is down to the builder. But because we know this fact, then we can use it to stop any primary seeing a load impedance.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on December 29th, 2014, 02:35 PM

interesting. can you please make a handwritten diagram showing the timing of the resonant pickup coil in relation to the pulse output few pulses before gating?

I will do that for you. Also show it connected to PLL system
Just a note to everyone about the extended resonance during the gate. I think it will continue to resonate during the gate period. It has to do really because there is nothing to stop it. So the exponential growth is governed by the energy the cell uses. That would explain why the voltage drops to base level at V- and the core re-opens during primary pulsing.

Just so I understand, when you say "shut down the core", does that mean the flux in the core material isn't able to go in either direction, and is like there is no flux at all ? completely cancelled out ? I just have never heard of core shut down before.
Don

Quote from Dynodon on December 30th, 2014, 02:31 PM

Just so I understand, when you say "shut down the core", does that mean the flux in the core material isn't able to go in either direction, and is like there is no flux at all ? completely cancelled out ? I just have never heard of core shut down before.
Don

A transformer core has an electromagnetic field therefore the electromagnetic flux that carries the current around the core is directional. If you wire coils so that one is wound left to right and the other right to left when they collapse the magnetic fields actually appose each other and stop the flow of flux altogether. Instead of the flow being directional it apposes itself north to north and south to south.

See here.

Finally.