Understanding the water hydrogen bond

Sharky

Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« on October 21st, 2014, 04:51 AM »
Please check http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html as it is a really great source for information on the water hydrogen bonds. I did not analyze everything yet but some points can be really interesting in getting the gas production rate up. Please read and analyse the following quote from that article:

"There is a trade-off between the covalent and hydrogen bond strengths; the stronger is the H····O bond, the weaker the O-H covalent bond, and the shorter the O····O distance. Interestingly, this means that the O-H covalent part of the hydrogen bonds gets shorter as the temperature of the water increases. The weakening of the O-H covalent bond gives rise to a good indicator of hydrogen bonding energy; the fractional increase in its length determined by the increasing strength of the hydrogen bonding; for example, when the pressure is substantially increased (~ GPa) the remaining hydrogen bonds (H····O) are forced shorter causing the O-H covalent bonds to be elongated. Hydrogen bond strength can be affected by electromagnetic and magnetic effects. Dissociation is a rare event, occurring only twice a day that is, only once for every 1016 times the hydrogen bond breaks. The anomalous properties of liquid water may be explained primarily on the basis of its hydrogen bonding."

It also seems that contaminants (or dissolved substances) in the water play a big role in covalent bond strengths which may indicate that the use of distilled water is making the bonds break more difficult and the use of rain or tap water should be preferred even if it impacts resistance and current leakage.


Sharky

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #2, on October 22nd, 2014, 10:47 AM »
Well good to be back :cool: !! I have been living in Colombia for a year and now i am back in the netherlands again. At this moment i have not yet the time available for R&D like before but i hope i will next year. But for giving my opinion, ... and questioning those of others :P i have always some time to spent.

Anyway, ... this Meyer stuff is impossible to get entirely out of your head. Somehow once you worked on it you will always return to it, sometimes after a few weeks, sometimes a few months, or like me (and Alex as well) after a year or more. Like you and a lot of others i went through the following phases:

- Messing around with some coils, transformers and all kind of plate and tube setups
- Actually starting to read the patents and begin to understand the basics
- Replicating the Meyer setups as close as possible based on the available information
- Being disappointed about not getting any gas production ...

So i think my next phase is getting into the physics and chemistry of it, trying to prove or disprove if destroying the covalent bond of water is at all possible. I wish i could visualize this like Tesla could in his days.

I really hope i can be of help in solving this puzzle and i love to hear your opinion on the information from my first post!!

Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #3, on October 22nd, 2014, 12:36 PM »
Quote from Sharky on October 21st, 2014, 04:51 AM
Please check http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_hydrogen_bonding.html as it is a really great source for information on the water hydrogen bonds. I did not analyze everything yet but some points can be really interesting in getting the gas production rate up. Please read and analyse the following quote from that article:

"There is a trade-off between the covalent and hydrogen bond strengths; the stronger is the H····O bond, the weaker the O-H covalent bond, and the shorter the O····O distance. Interestingly, this means that the O-H covalent part of the hydrogen bonds gets shorter as the temperature of the water increases. The weakening of the O-H covalent bond gives rise to a good indicator of hydrogen bonding energy; the fractional increase in its length determined by the increasing strength of the hydrogen bonding; for example, when the pressure is substantially increased (~ GPa) the remaining hydrogen bonds (H····O) are forced shorter causing the O-H covalent bonds to be elongated. Hydrogen bond strength can be affected by electromagnetic and magnetic effects. Dissociation is a rare event, occurring only twice a day that is, only once for every 1016 times the hydrogen bond breaks. The anomalous properties of liquid water may be explained primarily on the basis of its hydrogen bonding."

It also seems that contaminants (or dissolved substances) in the water play a big role in covalent bond strengths which may indicate that the use of distilled water is making the bonds break more difficult and the use of rain or tap water should be preferred even if it impacts resistance and current leakage.
good info thanks..lots to go thru...

Webmug

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #4, on October 22nd, 2014, 03:10 PM »
Quote from Sharky on October 22nd, 2014, 10:47 AM
Well good to be back :cool: !! I have been living in Colombia for a year and now i am back in the netherlands again. At this moment i have not yet the time available for R&D like before but i hope i will next year. But for giving my opinion, ... and questioning those of others :P i have always some time to spent.

Anyway, ... this Meyer stuff is impossible to get entirely out of your head. Somehow once you worked on it you will always return to it, sometimes after a few weeks, sometimes a few months, or like me (and Alex as well) after a year or more. Like you and a lot of others i went through the following phases:

- Messing around with some coils, transformers and all kind of plate and tube setups
- Actually starting to read the patents and begin to understand the basics
- Replicating the Meyer setups as close as possible based on the available information
- Being disappointed about not getting any gas production ...

So i think my next phase is getting into the physics and chemistry of it, trying to prove or disprove if destroying the covalent bond of water is at all possible. I wish i could visualize this like Tesla could in his days.

I really hope i can be of help in solving this puzzle and i love to hear your opinion on the information from my first post!!
Welcome back Sharky! Nice to read you are still interested in Meyers work :cool: Hard to not think about it :D
~webmug

~Russ

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #5, on November 3rd, 2014, 02:11 PM »
Quote from Sharky on October 22nd, 2014, 10:47 AM
Well good to be back :cool: !! I have been living in Colombia for a year and now i am back in the netherlands again. At this moment i have not yet the time available for R&D like before but i hope i will next year. But for giving my opinion, ... and questioning those of others :P i have always some time to spent.

Anyway, ... this Meyer stuff is impossible to get entirely out of your head. Somehow once you worked on it you will always return to it, sometimes after a few weeks, sometimes a few months, or like me (and Alex as well) after a year or more. Like you and a lot of others i went through the following phases:

- Messing around with some coils, transformers and all kind of plate and tube setups
- Actually starting to read the patents and begin to understand the basics
- Replicating the Meyer setups as close as possible based on the available information
- Being disappointed about not getting any gas production ...

So i think my next phase is getting into the physics and chemistry of it, trying to prove or disprove if destroying the covalent bond of water is at all possible. I wish i could visualize this like Tesla could in his days.

I really hope i can be of help in solving this puzzle and i love to hear your opinion on the information from my first post!!
this is so well put i want to use it for my "Stan Meyers researcher warning" read before researching...

good stuff!

and indeed I'm doing math now... my original goal was to replicate. i did that...  fun but not helpful... so now math and physics...

that's where i stand.

~Russ

Sharky

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #6, on November 5th, 2014, 12:49 AM »Last edited on November 5th, 2014, 12:53 AM
Have a look at http://www.kjmaclean.com/images/WaterMolecule.jpg and imagine the molecule inside a tube setup.

Now consider the following, ... the positive plate will attract the negative charged oxygen atom and the negative plate will attract the positively charged hydrogen atoms. To exert the highest posible force on the atoms we should allow the force being applied through an angle, preferably of 104.45 degrees. According to Newton's Laws any angle bigger or smaller will decrease the actual force put on the covalent bond will it not?

Placing the water molecules inside a tube setup i would conclude that the H atoms should be attracted by the outer tube and the O atoms by the inner tube, that way forces can be applied by an angle, the other way around it can not.

So i would say the positive side should be connected to the inside tube and the negative to the outside tube, i also think that the ratio of the diameters of the inside and outside tubes have an influence on the angle and forces being exerted.

Also look at Andrija Puharich patent US4394230, he also has his plates at an angle!

Any comments? 

firepinto

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #7, on November 5th, 2014, 05:20 AM »
The resonant chamber injector spark plug had to be a positive center since the engine block is at a negative potential from the car battery.  The angle of pull does make a lot of sense.  So the angle depends on the OD of the inner rod and the ID of the outer tube.  I can see why smaller would possibly be better.  Also could be a reason why people claim bubbles form in the middle of the water bath and not on the plates.
If that is all it is, we could make half round cells out of sheet metal to any radius we wanted easier than finding many different available stainless tube sizes. :idea:

Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #8, on November 5th, 2014, 05:29 AM »
hmm,

at an average size of 0.28 nm for a water molecule the curvature of an outer tube will be similar to earth surface curvature. we can barely notice a curvature at all and so the water molecules also shouldn´t.

who can calculate the forces?

firepinto

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #9, on November 5th, 2014, 06:14 AM »
Well after drawing it out, there really wouldn't be much difference with different tube sizes.  The 104.45 angle can't come near tangent with the outer tube.  I came up with this outer tube design that might pull at the right angle in focused points in the water bath.  Sounds like a wire EDM job. :P

Gunther Rattay

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #10, on November 5th, 2014, 06:42 AM »
that 2nd design creates another question:

now the capacitance should be non-linear, at least now there should be dedicated resonance centers.


~Russ

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #12, on November 5th, 2014, 07:31 AM »
so thinking this way...

Nate can you check if the injector would be enough angle? the smaller would be better...??

~Russ

firepinto

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #13, on November 5th, 2014, 11:23 AM »
Hmm.. at first thought I don’t think it would have enough angle - at least with a cross section with two perfect circles.  The cone taper throws a whole different variable into it.  I'll have to load up the 3D files and look.  We would be dealing with ellipses if you look at a cross section perpendicular with the cavity.  Might be something to that.

Sharky

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #14, on November 12th, 2014, 02:58 AM »
Some more food for thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-T7tCMUDXU#ws

Lots of Meyer stuff in there, especially the influence of light/photons on water shows Meyer had a deep understanding of the physics involved. Also the charged water phenomena Alex encountered the other day is very clearly explained with this theory. Will the tubes we use also create a EZ zone? What are the implications on the polarization and elongation of the water molecules?

Yeah i know, just more questions without answers ....


Heuristicobfuscation

Re: Understanding the water hydrogen bond
« Reply #16, on November 13th, 2014, 07:45 PM »
Quote from Sharky on November 12th, 2014, 02:58 AM
Some more food for thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-T7tCMUDXU#ws

Lots of Meyer stuff in there, especially the influence of light/photons on water shows Meyer had a deep understanding of the physics involved. Also the charged water phenomena Alex encountered the other day is very clearly explained with this theory. Will the tubes we use also create a EZ zone? What are the implications on the polarization and elongation of the water molecules?

Yeah i know, just more questions without answers ....
Good Video... at about 14:20 he mentions that they discoverd that water gets its "charge" for the exclusion zone from LIght, indirect and infrared.
yes Stan was defenitly way ahead  of his time. I remember in one of stans video they had asked him. Once the water was recombined in the ICE how could the water regain its energy? and his answer was simply "expose the water mist to the sun"...