Did a short test, said a few things wrong lol, like at the end when I said when we establish we can restrict voltage I actually meant restrict current but I think you know where I'm coming from.
Its an interesting test:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT-t6LpYbEc#ws

OK, did some testing yesterday with an audio transformer. Firstly I placed the transformer between the bucking coils and the water fuel cell. I moved the series diode so that it half rectified the transformer output to the cell and took a reading of the voltage. The volts were 120vdc so it was a 1:10 step up.
The current reading on the amp meter on the PWM was 400 milliamp without the cell being switched on. After I switched the cell on the amp meter was reading 500 milliamp but no gas at all. The voltage reading at the cell was 0.2vdc. I had 120vdc available to do work but it was lost somewhere at a cost of 100 milliamp in the brute force system. I did the dead short test again and this time there was no increase in current at all.
Conclusion, the bucking coils will restrict current to 500 milliamps on this system and 120vdc is allowed to reach the cell terminals, however, the cost of the transformer itself in inefficiency terms is 300 milliamps leaving only 100 milliamps to do work on this particular brute force system.
I tested the system with the audio transformer between the PWM and the coils, the transformer hated this, screamed its ass off and the current went to 2.7 amps. It just didn't like 8.5 khz at all. Going to test at different frequencies.
But here are some interesting points about all of this:
1. Bucking coils restrict amp flow in the Meyer schematic.
2. If you use these coils in a brute force system, the cost of the inefficiencies of transformers and other equipment in the loop will eat away at the available 500ma of current until you have no current left at all to do work in a brute force method.
3. The bucking coils will allow you to step the voltage up to 10,000 volts and beyond if you need it and will still only allow 500ma through them. However the cost of a transformer in efficiency will be taken away from the 500ma.
4. These coils will allow you to charge a capacitor and create a voltage field within it, there is absolutely no doubt about that and they will work in an LC network but they simply will not allow you to use current at all.
I have learned quite a lot from this series of tests. I hope others have picked up and learned something too. Thanks.

Hopefully everyone has seen the John Shive "Wave Similarities" video.  In that video he demonstrates his mechanical wave machine where it is clearly visible how waves propogate, reflect and are dampened.  This is pretty neat to watch happen with a slow mechanical system, but how can we do the same with an electrical system where the waves move much faster?  We can use an oscilliscope to look at the superposition (final result) wave, but we have no means to clearly see an audio frequency wave propogate through and reflect from various electronic components, especially custom wound inductors (such as bucking coils).  What I think we need at the bare minimum is the equivalent of an audio frequency SWR meter.  With this, we could at least get some idea of what nodes exist and what the minimum and maximum node values are, then we could attempt to tune these systems--impedance match them.

For instance if I connect an 8 ohm load resistor to my 300 watt PA amp on the 8 ohm output terminals, nearly all the power gets dumped into the load resistor because it is impedance matched.  But if I add a couple of chokes to each side of the transmission line, it's nearly impossible to guess which output terminals I now need to connect to for proper impedance matching.  My scope only shows that I'm not matched, but it doesn't give me any hint as to what direction to go in.  So this is one problem we need to tackle.

Now for amp restriction, what do we needed to do?  I'm thinking here we need to create a standing wave.  This is basically setting up a reactive power scenario where the voltage and amperage are 90 degrees out of phase from each other.  The amperage is actually there, but since it is out of phase with the voltage, it simply gets all reflected back to the source and ends up costing us nothing.  So how do we do this?  Well, again like in the John Shive video, we can either have an open-ended transmission line or closed-ended.  One way will reflect a mirror and the other way an inverse mirror.  For our purpose a closed-ended setup would seem more appropriate since we are not trying to propogate the energy wirelessly.  All we want are the oscillations.  This is the source and termination of the first transmission line.  The second transmission line is between the end of the first and the cell.  The end of the first transmission line leaves us with simply oscillations.  Now we need to superposition these oscillations so that they continue to build upon themselves in amplitude and as they do this, they need to swing more and more positive each time so the DC component becomes stronger and stronger.  And finally we dump these positive oscillations into the cell with the impedance matched so the full energy of the wave is absorbed by the cell.  This is where I think the gating plays a role.  When the oscillations from the first transmission line stop, the built-up DC potential in the second transmission line bursts into the cell.  And when that energy is completely abosrbed by cell, we restart the whole cycle again.

I wish I was sharp enough to build a demonstration of this whole system using water waves, because I'm sure if everyone could see how it worked, visually and in real-time, it would become obvious what we need to do electrically.  The main thing we need to keep in mind is that each end of a transmission line has an impedance, which means we can have a fixed impendance on the terminating side and a variable impedance at the source.  This will alter how the reflected waves reflect again at the source side even though we may not alter the source signal at all.  Here's an example:

Suppose we have a 50 ohm transmission line, 50 ohms at the source side and 50 ohms at the terminating side.  We send an impulse.  The impulse travels down the line and gets completely absorbed on the terminating side.  Now we change the source side to 10k ohms.  This time the impulse travels down the line and because the terminating side is still 50 ohms (different than the 10k source side), it reflects.  And when the impulse gets back to the source side, it reflects again and so on, because of the impedance mismatch.  So we have the ability electronically to change the impedance at each end of the line on the fly, making it possible to do all sorts of things with the wave(s) bouncing back-n-forth on that line.  My theory about adding chokes on the transmission line is that they artifically extend the length of the transmission line, same way a loading coil on an antenna artifically extends the length of the antenna.  This now artificially extended transmission line gives us time to manipulate the waves on this line in real-time.  And one way I see straight off is by making one leg of the transmission line slightly larger or smaller than the other--think adjustable choke.  Now you have a curved/biased transmission line.

Quote from Matt Watts on September 27th, 2014, 07:03 AM

...
Now for amp restriction, what do we needed to do?  I'm thinking here we need to create a standing wave.  This is basically setting up a reactive power scenario where the voltage and amperage are 90 degrees out of phase from each other.  The amperage is actually there, but since it is out of phase with the voltage, it simply gets all reflected back to the source and ends up costing us nothing. 
...

that is exactly what the PLL regulation does.

Impedance matching at high frequency applications of course can´t change the RF frequency because the radio band used is given. In our case  it´s different.
we can adjust the frequency to get an optimized impedance match.

the pickup points for the references have to be defined and (isolated) signal amplifiers built to create the feedback signals needed to adjust the frequency by the microcontroller.

your example defines 2 pickup points, maybe one at the coils defines the frequency (as pll for the frequency) and the one near the cell defines the gating (referencing to nav as a process control loop).


using the phase shift information (derivation from 90 degrees) at a given frequency should be kinda SWR meter for the audio range.

Matt said:-

Quote

For instance if I connect an 8 ohm load resistor to my 300 watt PA amp on the 8 ohm output terminals, nearly all the power gets dumped into the load resistor because it is impedance matched.  But if I add a couple of chokes to each side of the transmission line, it's nearly impossible to guess which output terminals I now need to connect to for proper impedance matching.  My scope only shows that I'm not matched, but it doesn't give me any hint as to what direction to go in.  So this is one problem we need to tackle.

Hi Matt, Antennae are exactly the same and we have the same problems in impedance matching, calculating where energy is lost in the system and where energy is genuine. My friend and I have discussed for many a night the comparisons of voltage maxima and voltage minima in transmission lines and current restricting circuitry.
The vast majority of forum members however, will not have the slightest clue what you are talking about and I would advise that you keep it at least easy for them to understand. But I will say this about it: If you are comparing a bucking coil configuration to a load resister that is impedance matched that absorbs energy like a dummy load then you are mistaken. So you think I dumped 500ma into a dummy load and the impedance mismatch of the coils and the cell wouldn't allow otherwise? More discussion needed one thinks.
Gunther said:-

Quote

your example defines 2 pickup points, maybe one at the coils defines the frequency (as pll for the frequency) and the one near the cell defines the gating (referencing to nav as a process control loop).

Can you further elaborate on this please?

...And are you suggesting Matt that an RF standing wave only contains either voltage or current but not both together?

Quote from nav on September 27th, 2014, 12:10 PM

...And are you suggesting Matt that an RF standing wave only contains either voltage or current but not both together?

To be quite honest, I'm not sure what is there or in what proportions it is in.  When you send a wave train down an electrical transmission line, everything happens so fast you cannot see how the wave bounces.  All you see is the final superpositioned wave.  Without some sort of deconvolution algorithm, knowing what the wave did in slow motion is impossible.  At least it seems that way to me unless I'm able to learn a few tricks.

Quote from nav on September 27th, 2014, 12:10 PM

But I will say this about it: If you are comparing a bucking coil configuration to a load resister that is impedance matched that absorbs energy like a dummy load then you are mistaken.  So you think I dumped 500ma into a dummy load and the impedance mismatch of the coils and the cell wouldn't allow otherwise? More discussion needed one thinks.

What I'm struggling with is this:  The impedance comes from the resistive part of the circuit.  Wire in the form of coils adds some impedance because of copper loss, but it mostly just extends the length of the transmission line.  When you extend a transmission line like this, you open the door to many, many harmonics constructively and destructively interferring.  That's just part of the equation.  Now add in the magnetic component generated by those bucking coils.  What are those waves doing and how are they manipulating the signals via induction in the main transmission line?  It's hard for me to wrap my head around and to make it worse like I said, all you see is the final outcome, because it all happens at nearly light speed.

I will say what you are seeing with your two bucking coils is impressive.  When you go to higher voltage I would expect you to see some core saturation which will limit their effect.  The only way I know to increase the voltage range of these coils is to use a larger core diameter and more windings.  Hopefully you have enough turns on there already that you won't need to change them.

Quote from nav on September 27th, 2014, 11:41 AM

...
Gunther said:-Can you further elaborate on this please?

The question is:
there are different devices in the whole system that get excited by the voltage pulses.
Which are the subsystems excited and how do they interact?
how can the pulsing control the excitation of each sub-system independently and what is the event chain taking place in the process?
one sub-system is the vic transformer and another sub-system is the WFC.

Although transmission lines operate on a similar basis to electromagnetic circuits it is unadvisable to compare them. A VIC for example doesn't produce RF as an end product and although it oscillates and has standing waves, because of the lack of RF then the impedance we associate with transmission lines works differently.
It is difficult to compare an impedance choke on a transmission line to a pair of bucking coils, the impedance choke or balun stops RF from travelling on the outside of the coax and interfering with equipment and the RF oscillations themselves. Bucking coils are not dealing with RF oscillations at all, they deal with voltage and current in various different phases of operation. We know that magnetic fields and their respective positions have adverse effects on current and voltage phases and depending where one magnetic field is placed in camparison to another from 0-90 degrees, can have phasing implications. This cannot be compared to RF.
The bucking coils get warm when we try and force more current through them when they are wired in series with a load, what does that tell you? They will not allow more than 500ma through them but will allow voltage, the current and voltage seem to be at normal phase up to 500ma but once that threshold is passed the current lags the voltage. I would say that the magnetic fields of the two chokes being in opposition to each other are something to do with it rather than them being 0-90 degrees phase shifted.
In conclusion I would say that opposite magnetic fields can have current and voltage phase interferance that may be similar to phase angle shift. At this point I could not claim anything else.

@nav
comparison to RF and transmission line was a behaviour model like the water model can make RF dynamics transparent.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 28th, 2014, 06:35 AM

@nav
comparison to RF and transmission line was a behaviour model like the water model can make RF dynamics transparent.

Fair enough, after another couple of days testing i've suspended testing of bucking coils. Its kind of pointless testing them on none resonant systems that are lossy and use brute force because the only way forward in that respect is to build bigger coils which will be costly and pointless.
I've gone through a lot of calculations in the past couple of days and i'm satisfied that i've got an overall picture of what is happening electrically.
I am currently ordering parts for a new build at the moment but this is an hybrid system. I noticed a couple of things over the past couple of weeks concerning Heins/Meyer/Leedskalnin schematics which ties into Tesla and some of the testing I did. This hybrid I can assure you is 100% unheard of but I will try to keep as transparant as possible at all times.
I think you'll all like this.