Resonance

Tribal-Cain

Resonance
« on May 3rd, 2014, 07:07 PM »
I am new to this site, so I apologize if this subject has already covered thoroughly in another thread..if this is the case I would appreciate someone pointing me to the appropriate thread..  If not, I invite anyone interested to explore the topic of resonance.

Many of you will be aware of the story where Tesla was experimenting with resonance and almost tore apart the building via tuning into the optimum resonant frequency of the steel in the building which caused the building to shake vigorously.  Apparently Tesla immediately destroyed his machine in fear that in a couple minutes the building would be completely destroyed.  The event was played off to have been an Earthquake..  I feel that the heart of Tesla's work was the research and development of resonance based technologies.  In fact, I feel that resonance is the key to his wireless energy, and may be tied into his oscillation technology. 

For me, everything has an optimal resonant frequency that it will vibrate with.  Therefore, if one were to resonate the optimum resonant frequency for fused quartz, the glass would begin to vibrate and eventually shatter.  This is the classic meme where the opera singer hits the key note and shatters the glass..

Optimum resonant frequency appears to be at the heart of Tesla's work.  To me, this seems to be what was the force behind his wireless energy transmission as well. 

Matt Watts

Re: Resonance
« Reply #1, on May 4th, 2014, 04:48 AM »
I'll toss out a couple of acronyms on this line of thinking:

MRI  --  Magnetic Resonance Imaging
NMR  --  Nuclear Magnetic Resonance
NAR  --  Nuclear Acoustic Resonance

And old favorite from Dale Pond here in Colorado:
SVP  --  Sympathetic Vibratory Physics

Mr. Tesla explored a phenomena overlooked by many.  He used sharp impulses to create resonance.  So instead of oscillating a target object with a sign wave, instead he would use disruptive discharges with their spacing tuned to exactly coerce the target object to begin self resonating.  The idea here was to collect energy from the target object exceeding that of the energy needed to create the stimulating impulses.

Tribal-Cain

Re: Resonance
« Reply #2, on May 4th, 2014, 07:58 AM »
Matt,

Have you experimented with what you mention regarding the sharp impulses Tesla used.  This is what I am drawn to in my R&D as well.  I am particularly attracted to pulsed D.C. not A.C.  It seems Tesla may have been more interested in this too at lease in the later years of his life... My feeling is that if you can get an object self resonating in this way with high enough voltage impulses, it will actually begin to break down molecularly.  This is what I am being drawn to regarding creating monotomic gold..

thx1138v2

Re: Resonance
« Reply #3, on May 5th, 2014, 07:20 PM »
Quote from Tribal-Cain on May 4th, 2014, 07:58 AM
My feeling is that if you can get an object self resonating in this way with high enough voltage impulses, it will actually begin to break down molecularly.  This is what I am being drawn to regarding creating monotomic gold..
I've studied Tesla's work for three years and it may be possible to do that electrically but I think what you are looking for would be more easily accomplished with sound which relates to Tesla's mechanical harmonic vibrator and what people today call longitudinal waves. In one of Tesla's presentations he described what he was working with as more like sound than electricity as it was known at the time and sound waves are longitudinal waves.

In my researches I stumbled upon the work of John Ernst Worrell Keely who accomplished the "disassociation of water" with sound in the mid 1800's. It's some very interesting work on sound, resonance, and harmonics. Many say he was a fraud but the more I study it, the more it looks possible to me. In fact he described the internals of the atom when it was still thought that the atom was the indivisible minimum of matter.

Hans von Lieven is a modern engineer who got interested in Keely's work and did the research to describe that work in the most comprehensible manner I've seen. He not only explains Keely's work but why he seemed to be speaking in what first appears to be jibberish. There weren't any words to describe what he was doing back then so he made up terms just like the later electrical engineers had to make up the words to describe electrical engineering, i.e. the "Leyden jar" becomes a "condenser" which becomes what we today call a "capacitor".

The following link is to von Lieven's work RE Keely
John Ernst Worrell Keely

The attached file is something I put together comparing today's understanding of the atom to Keely's description.

Tribal-Cain

Re: Resonance
« Reply #4, on May 5th, 2014, 09:38 PM »
Quote from thx1138v2 on May 5th, 2014, 07:20 PM
I've studied Tesla's work for three years and it may be possible to do that electrically but I think what you are looking for would be more easily accomplished with sound which relates to Tesla's mechanical harmonic vibrator and what people today call longitudinal waves. In one of Tesla's presentations he described what he was working with as more like sound than electricity as it was known at the time and sound waves are longitudinal waves.

In my researches I stumbled upon the work of John Ernst Worrell Keely who accomplished the "disassociation of water" with sound in the mid 1800's. It's some very interesting work on sound, resonance, and harmonics. Many say he was a fraud but the more I study it, the more it looks possible to me. In fact he described the internals of the atom when it was still thought that the atom was the indivisible minimum of matter.

Hans von Lieven is a modern engineer who got interested in Keely's work and did the research to describe that work in the most comprehensible manner I've seen. He not only explains Keely's work but why he seemed to be speaking in what first appears to be jibberish. There weren't any words to describe what he was doing back then so he made up terms just like the later electrical engineers had to make up the words to describe electrical engineering, i.e. the "Leyden jar" becomes a "condenser" which becomes what we today call a "capacitor".

The following link is to von Lieven's work RE Keely
John Ernst Worrell Keely

The attached file is something I put together comparing today's understanding of the atom to Keely's description.
Yes, this seems to be the direction I am moving.  Supposedly Tesla's Earthquake machine was purely mechanical...but I am feeling that electromagnitc may be the best way to go..Although I could be completely wrong about this.  I haven't quite grasped how Tesla's purely mechanical device driven by compressed air could possibly oscillate at 50 million hertz...but maybe I am missing something.

I am looking into high frequencies in the Megahertz range possibly created by pulsing D.C. very very quickly.  I am considering taking an electrostatic generator such as the Wimshurst or Bonetti type machine and instead of setting it up to create huge voltage discharges of low frequency, I am considering setting it up to create high frequencies at lower voltages to then tap into the hidden power of resonance which will amplify the energy, which might be accomplished at low voltages and high frequency but I will not know for certain until I try it..  So instead of producing a million volts with low frequency, perhaps if done correctly I could get 1 volt at 1 million hertz... via using a proper switch setup which I have not quite figured out yet...I am also considering going a purely mechanical direction using compressed air to create the oscillations, but I would think that the purely mechanical route would be farm more limited in frequency than the electrical...  Probably would be wise to try a rife type frequency generator on a metal at its resonant frequency before spending a lot of time and money on creating the electrostatic generator...

thx1138v2

Re: Resonance
« Reply #5, on May 7th, 2014, 07:35 AM »Last edited on May 7th, 2014, 07:37 AM
Quote from Tribal-Cain on May 5th, 2014, 09:38 PM
Supposedly Tesla's Earthquake machine was purely mechanical...
True. If you consider the resonant frequency of the earth it would be a very low frequency (probably < 10Hz) so mechanical would work fine. But you have to understand what was NOT known at the time. Geophysics didn't exist and it wasn't until the 1930's that it was discovered that the earth has a molten outer core around a solid inner core and it wasn't until the 1960's that plate tectonics became accepted. So while his machine could maybe create eartquakes, it's highly unlikely that it could, as he put it, split the planet in half.
Quote
I haven't quite grasped how Tesla's purely mechanical device driven by compressed air could possibly oscillate at 50 million hertz...but maybe I am missing something.
I don't remember him saying that it could oscillate that fast. What I remember, without looking it up, is that it was in the 10's of KHz.
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I am looking into high frequencies in the Megahertz range possibly created by pulsing D.C. very very quickly.
He generally accomplished that with a unidirectional disruptive condenser discharges through a spark gap.
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So instead of producing a million volts with low frequency, perhaps if done correctly I could get 1 volt at 1 million hertz...
I don't think low voltages will do what you are seeking because you will need enough voltage to overcome the electrostatic charges but as you said, you won't know until you try.
Quote
via using a proper switch setup which I have not quite figured out yet... I am also considering going a purely mechanical direction using compressed air to create the oscillations, but I would think that the purely mechanical route would be farm more limited in frequency than the electrical...
Switching is going to be your major problem. Mechanical switching will be too slow due to inertia reversal and possible burning of any mechanical contacts. Even without burning, minor changes in mechanical properties will change the frequencies. Solid state switching might work but you have to remember there is always a small amount of reverse current in solid state switching devices that will destroy the unidirectional property of the switching. If you go to the quenched spark gap method to get the unidirectional impulses you also have the problem of the discharges between the spark gap electrode surfaces deteriorating the electrodes. Tesla spent a lot of effort on spark gap quenching devices. You might review those patents for ideas. He typically called then "controllers".

You might look into sonoluminescence. It uses high frequency electricity to drive transducers that create directional sound at frequencies high enough to get water to emit light. So it's a combination of electrical and mechanical (sound waves).

Tribal-Cain

Re: Resonance
« Reply #6, on May 7th, 2014, 11:41 AM »
Quote from thx1138v2 on May 7th, 2014, 07:35 AM
I don't remember him saying that it could oscillate that fast. What I remember, without looking it up, is that it was in the 10's of KHz.
This is based off of him nearly collapsing a steel building by oscillating at the resonant frequency of steel which appears to be atleast several hundred khz per inch depending on the alloy composition of course...
Quote from thx1138v2 on May 7th, 2014, 07:35 AM
Switching is going to be your major problem. Mechanical switching will be too slow due to inertia reversal and possible burning of any mechanical contacts. Even without burning, minor changes in mechanical properties will change the frequencies. Solid state switching might work but you have to remember there is always a small amount of reverse current in solid state switching devices that will destroy the unidirectional property of the switching. If you go to the quenched spark gap method to get the unidirectional impulses you also have the problem of the discharges between the spark gap electrode surfaces deteriorating the electrodes. Tesla spent a lot of effort on spark gap quenching devices. You might review those patents for ideas. He typically called then "controllers".
great info thanks!
Quote from thx1138v2 on May 7th, 2014, 07:35 AM
You might look into sonoluminescence. It uses high frequency electricity to drive transducers that create directional sound at frequencies high enough to get water to emit light. So it's a combination of electrical and mechanical (sound waves).
Yes, I am fairly aware of the sonoluminescence, and will explore as you suggested.. You might be on to something there...  Although, ideally I would like to source my voltage from static electricity...but am open to other options..
Re: Resonance
« Reply #7, on May 7th, 2014, 12:36 PM »
By the way, I wasn't claiming that Tesla's device could oscillate at 50 mhz.  For my purposes, I need to generate the resonant frequency of gold and other metals.  I am not sure if NMR or the others mentioned by Matt are exactly what I am looking for, but the NMR for gold and other metals are in the Mhz frequencies.
Re: Resonance
« Reply #8, on May 7th, 2014, 02:39 PM »
Also,  so mythbusters did the experiment with a Tesla inspired device (which was not exact to Tesla's drawings) and got fairly significant results with the bridge at low frequency resonance.   They were able to feel significant vibrations several hundred feet away on the bridge... So I wonder what would happen if they pulsed higher octaves of the lower frequency....wouldn't that hypothetically have a greater effect?

thx1138v2

Re: Resonance
« Reply #9, on May 7th, 2014, 07:44 PM »
I'm not that familiar with physical resonance but I think as the harmonics go up the power goes down. You can couple with the higher harmonics but you get less return, hence the need for more power into the oscillator. If I understand it correctly, the natural resonant frequency will result in the strongest resonance of the material in question but when you are looking at systems (like the bridge) rather than a single solid piece of material one must consider the natural resonant frequency of the entire system, not just the materials.

You should take a look at Keely's "System of Graduation". See Hans von Lieven's explanation on the "Aquaeous Disintegration" page of the above link in the earlier post.

Tribal-Cain

Re: Resonance
« Reply #10, on May 8th, 2014, 07:04 AM »
Quote from thx1138v2 on May 7th, 2014, 07:44 PM
I'm not that familiar with physical resonance but I think as the harmonics go up the power goes down. You can couple with the higher harmonics but you get less return, hence the need for more power into the oscillator. If I understand it correctly, the natural resonant frequency will result in the strongest resonance of the material in question but when you are looking at systems (like the bridge) rather than a single solid piece of material one must consider the natural resonant frequency of the entire system, not just the materials.

You should take a look at Keely's "System of Graduation". See Hans von Lieven's explanation on the "Aquaeous Disintegration" page of the above link in the earlier post.
Well, supposedly when Tesla connected his mechanical oscillator up to an iron bar in his laboratory, when the oscillator increased in frequency it caused greater resonance in the building until it began to shake vigorously as if there was an extremely intense earthquake.  When mythbusters made a pathetic attempt to replicate it, they were only using a few hz which got significant results that could be felt from hundreds of feet away from the oscillator but not enough to tear down the bridge.  I have read that Tesla's oscillator achieved frequencies in excess of 50,000 cycles per second...  For my own research at present, I am most concerned about the resonant frequency of single materials, not complex systems like bridges and buildings..  I will look into what you have suggested.  Thank you for sharing.