Hi Guys and Girls 

I have a nice Puzzle.

We are exploring ways in a open source way to advance the knowledge for feeding H or HHo from cell
directly into the engine intake close as possible to valves. whether turbo or not does'not matter in this case
as we need solution discussed openly for for both applications.

We want to place the feed in as shown.

The cell is low pressure output non pressurized 1-5 bar and basically ambient pressure. 

So we don't want the full engine vacumm on that line or it will collapse the cell suck out all the gas and draw water.

But we do not want to move the feed. as we want the maximum close fed in as possible.

What fittings plumbing baffles or  check valve ideas can we do
to allow that to feed to work on that spot  and have it fed in from cell  in such a way
it doesn't draw the full vacumm off engine and slow fed in at low pressure 1- 5 bar.

I have attached a pic to get minds working


Goal is to to find a Simple solution  or adapter or mechanical rotor pump to control the h gas feed in
and or pressure effect of the engine vacumm

( like a hospital oxygen feed rotor pump) or similar

See what we can dream up or find

for this as it will solve many peoples
 install blues to get the most out of their cells.

All ideas and suggestions to over come this common issue are welcomed global

Dan

Why not just dump the gas into the air cleaner box.  Any reasonable air filter should provide a slight drop in pressure--couple inches of water.  That should provide plenty of vacuum to keep the gas flowing where it is suppose to go without unduly sucking water from or collapsing the HHO generation system.

It seems to work fine on my diesel pickup this way.

:) Good thinking!

Try a small orifice or needle valve.  You can look up orifice flow at some percentage of atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi).
If you know the rate of production you can keep the flow below that rate to keep some pressure in the HHO generator.

A reverse Check Valve on the cell itself..

this will allow the cell not to collapse allowing air to go in.
but it will not allow pressure to escape.

other option.. just brianstorming...

using a water level detector to activate solenoid valve...

Good start,  We could use a pressure sensor to operate a line valve solenoid
 but it is not ideal from a safety point of view.

One Builder on email sent me this

"We can  reduce the vacuum by applying bigger pipes or add more lines to engine valves cover.

Or use needle valve for cell line
and before that valve,

 make two line 1 to vacuum with needle valve
 1 to air filter  so you can adjust the vacuum by means of needle valve

Needle valves may also be used in vacuum systems, when a precise control of gas flow is required, at low pressure

Looking at Part nos schematics for a solution

http://www.instrumentation-fittings.com/needle-valves.html

https://www.swagelok.com/products/valves/needle-valves-shutoff-regulating.aspx

All help appreciated to get support for a design or solution with part numbers

 it is a worth while thing to get feed back and a solution on as it fixes and  it unlocks
many in take applications for cells to be used more readily

Keep Pushing NEVER STOP :idea:

Dan

Jeep CJ-7 PCV System http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1h/bl616h.htm

Maybe the use of a needle valve and this more advance pvc valve(similar to a check valve)

vacumm to pvc valve to needle valve to cell

Dan

I think something more industrial would work for vacuum regulation.  I turned this up on a quick search, not saying this would be the prefect model or best priced:

http://fairchildproducts.com/prod.php?id=18

I would guess it is similar to an air compressor line regulator, just for vacuum. 

NIce Looks good will try this

Dan

THIS IS A Draft
 Develop & Layman's Guide to establishing a better understanding
HH+ O Install Points I have alot more to add to this but it is a guide to get you thinking straight.

You have to consider vacuum pressure on you hh+ O and over come cell collapse with  needle regulator or nozzles


Where to locate your HH + O  injection nozzle.
Well let's first start with where not to place the nozzle.

When placing your water injection nozzle makes sure you do not place the nozzle upstream of a MAF or mass air flow sensor.

Fluid running through this sensor can damage these sensors on some particular engines. Next we recommend not installing these pre-intercooler unless you are injecting pre-blower on a supercharged engine that has an intake mounted intercooler. Injecting before front mount intercooler can cause the HH+ O mixture to collect at the bottom because of the restriction of the tubes. Okay, now we know where not to place the nozzle, lets get on to where to place it.

 
Starting from where the air enters the intake tract and ending at the intake just prior to the combustion chamber.
1 Pre-Turbo HH + O

We don't recommend this location at all if you do not have the proper equipment such as the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. 

Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of HH+ O  injection users do not use this location. One reason for someone to inject at this location is the HH+O  mixture chemically alters the turbo compressor map.

The  HH+ O  l injection will dynamically shifts the compressor map of the turbo so that it has the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo.

 This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo.

In order to inject pre-turbo with out compressor damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the  HH+ O  as finely  as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer gas. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compresser as possible.
 
2 Pre-Intercooler
 
Pre-intercooler seems like a sensible nozzle location but, the thing to think about is if the air entering the IC is pre-cooled, the ability of the intercooler is because the  temp difference is lesser. It is also possible for the fine HH+ O mist to collect in the bottom of your intercooler core.

We don't recommend this location either. The other problem is that there's a possibility that the hot air from the turbo might unnecessarily  over heat vaporize to flash point  the HH+ O and take up some of the volume built up by the turbo that was supposed to be for the charge.

 Pre-IC does work for some track cars such as road racing that operate at a more constant higher RPM. For the daily driver, weekend racer, the pre-intercooler location should not be considered.


3 Post Intercooler
Most computer controlled engines have an intake air temperature (IAT) sensor. This sensor monitors the temperature of the air going into the motor.

 The reason for putting it before the IAT sensor is because it will see the cooler temps and the engine will advance timing, allowing for more power. Also placing the injection nozzle as far from the cylinders/air intake sensor as possible, it allows for the HH+ O mixture to be better absorbed into the intake air charge.

 This allows for great distribution to each cylinder. This post intercooler nozzle location should be the primary nozzle location to be considered for most users.

In theory, since the air charge will be mixed for a longer distance, and therefore time, allowing for the moisture to be absorbed by the air, creating the coolest possible air charge going into the cylinders. HH+ O molecules from a nozzle located here have more time to be absorbed by the intake charge exiting the IC before making it into the combustion chamber.

4 Pre-Air Intake Temperature Sensor
In the cold side charge pipe is usually an easier or less intrusive nozzle location for most user's than the IC exit tank, but still the closer to IC the better. Locating the nozzle here has same as for reason given in above (location 3)

5 After Air Intake Sensor
After the Air Intake Sensor: You can usually mount it either before or after the ‘butterfly' and still be after the air intake temperature sensor.

 The main difference when mounting the injector before or after the butterfly is there is less vacuum before versus after the butterfly when idling or driving in vacuum. Translation, when in vacuum, there is more vacuum after the butterfly than before it. Here is why this is important:

 If your solenoid is placed very far from the injectors (more than a couple of feet), then the vacuum can actually suck just a little bit of the HH+ O. This small amount of moisture ingestion during vacuum is not a problem.

6 Intake manifold
This location can be the most complex area to install. Usually requiring that he intake be removed for access.

Injecting here is going to yield the largest Vacuum on HH+ O Cell which is ideal for getting into the combustion chamber but not so I deal for the vacuum on the cell which can such out water etc.

And with the closer proximity to the combustion chambers is going to provide a larger amount of HH+ O into the cylinders. Doing this usually requires more fuel from the factory system be removed.

This option is best for max cooling and savings .

The HH+ O  here is being injected in a manner much like port fuel injection and it is the bigger HH+ O molecules being injected here that have a more direct effect of in cylinder cooling and injection here has more of an effect of altering the flame front of the combustion charge in a way much like a higher octane fuel.

To take full advantage of this nozzle location it is suggested that trimming away some of the factory dumped fuel be done.


In other words, in order to take advantage of the better properties of HH+ O over fuel for cooling and injecting HH+ O at this location, you want to remove the dumped fuel and actually REPLACE this with HH+ O.

This injection point with a pretty sophisticated WI control method allows for the most advantageous use of HH+ O injection.

 The drawback for nozzles located heres is kit/component complexity, install complexity, additional labor, possible machine shop costs, and possible additional parts costs.

Currently the Last method we are looking at needle valves and injector nozzels and low pressure pumps to stop vacuum getting to and effect cell if we over come that we have a major advance here.

I am Inviting comments on this to improve options for controlling vacuum to HH+ O cell whilst feeding in as close as possible to cylinders

Dan

Now here is a new way Bleed off air pressure from the post turbo side and use it to prime and pressurize the HH+O to post turbo side input
or intake maniol on a normal engine very good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

try with no water use just hho and prehaps different smaller tank 12-15 psi for line pressure

Skip to 15.26 in video that is the good part

Pre Turbo Water Injection - Explained


PS but we make it post injection nor pre injection that way we an equal the vacuum pressure difference in line from cell

We are working on this
Dan

I been thinking about this for a long time. this is what you do. let me custom tailor a HHO type injector for you. there are 3 ways to go about this.
perhaps more but i have been focused on the injector for some time. as i stated the injector can be manufactured as a e-type cigerett. i can make them rich you know..

i like the glow plug in the injector.
i like a sonic transducer in the injector.
i want a hho steam chamber.
i want high pressure, and my idea to solve this. volume of hho is low, so i incrase the velocity at the injector with a air compresssor. very small in fact.
thats one.  to test for concept a cor canistor, and a volume of hho. but if i heat this and cause the hho and steam to become super heated i know strip off all the energy of the hydrogen, and burn it all in my engien.  i install a inductor if desired to heat as a glow plug would. or i simply send it through a geet reactor to process the steam more. much can be done, and its time you were told how simple it can be.

 i suggest tricking the manufacturer to make a custom set of vaporizers, and install them on a test motor.

so by adding vloume of air i can increase pressure at the injector to cause instant vapur at the piston. reducing the amount of hho needed to do the same thing.

Could use a a second throttle body

or a carb for this also

I got sent this

who can try or advance the idea ?

and or document it works or not? to control the over vacuum
look at simple way to do this and scalle up

Cool I am post this  ,

Look up  stuart hilborn injection and the way recycled his injection rail excess fuel(fuel bypass) after it reached the rail pressure he wanted

these guys have proven this work with a air stone to avoid vacuum suction problems we also know from Russ test it can stop flash back if
fine stone.

Attached here for you
comments

and further video testing
dd

CONSTANT FLOW FUEL INJECTION

EXCESS GAS PRESSURE IS FED BACK TO CELL or air. or reformed at a catalytic

We can make adaptions of  a Stan's  method of gas handling this is basically a  example of concept we
totally change the method of example pic to match what  Stan did
the the plumbing of the gas processor on hi vacuum zone  is waht he did and we just have to look at it closely with hho and
hh+o split gas installers.  this makes NH3 with ionized Ni

Pic is of a existing product used for another completely different purpose
and pic is in public domain shown here for  concept purpose only  along with stans so people can draw the conclusion

We inject hh into the new mini carb which connects to high vacuum side of intake and it is controlled due to needle valve
and works with turbo boost side pressure also.

it has a ionizer not shown which makes a Stan Meyers type charge with led and + electron extract
and plumbs as shown

Hope this helps

Dan

Quote from freethisone on May 14th, 2014, 07:06 AM

I been thinking about this for a long time. this is what you do. let me custom tailor a HHO type injector for you. there are 3 ways to go about this.
perhaps more but i have been focused on the injector for some time. as i stated the injector can be manufactured as a e-type cigerett. i can make them rich you know..

i like the glow plug in the injector.
i like a sonic transducer in the injector.
i want a hho steam chamber.
i want high pressure, and my idea to solve this. volume of hho is low, so i incrase the velocity at the injector with a air compresssor. very small in fact.
thats one.  to test for concept a cor canistor, and a volume of hho. but if i heat this and cause the hho and steam to become super heated i know strip off all the energy of the hydrogen, and burn it all in my engien.  i install a inductor if desired to heat as a glow plug would. or i simply send it through a geet reactor to process the steam more. much can be done, and its time you were told how simple it can be.

 i suggest tricking the manufacturer to make a custom set of vaporizers, and install them on a test motor.

so by adding vloume of air i can increase pressure at the injector to cause instant vapur at the piston. reducing the amount of hho needed to do the same thing.

let call that custom inject a intake adapter as shown above yes we can

and as per stand design he made his from delrin so it can be low cost if we plan  just make a needle valve (mechanical means) 
mini
vacuum carb.

I think for this problem, we should more look to that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect
It says that a parial vacuum can be created on a narrow point of the air intake system. So the best for a small vacuum is to use some air channels at the air intake manifold. I think one of the most narrowed points is the intake directly before the intake valves. Maybe have a look at LPG nozzels and where they are placed in the intake manifold.

Cheers!

yes and combo of needle valve


can look here
and attached

we need builder for these

http://www.chiptuning.com.au/fix-for-vntvgt-vacuum-actuated-turbos/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_valve

d