Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC

Farrah Day

Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« on October 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM »Last edited on October 14th, 2013, 10:05 AM by Farrah Day
My initial thread on the subject was quickly engulfed with a lot of off-topic posts, so I thought I'd post a more comprehensive explanation of what I think may be happening in a Meyer-type WFC.  Here I've gone into slightly more detail and put my thoughts in better order.
Quote
In my opinion, the whole science behind this process and indeed the operation of the WFC relies on the fact that the charge carriers in water are ions and the charge carriers in the rest of the circuit including the electrodes are electrons.  The difference in mass is enormous: The relative atomic mass of OH- ion is something like 30,000 times greater than an electron, whilst even the relative atomic mass of a proton (H+) is around 1800 times that of an electron.

In simple terms, what this means is that electrons in the metal can react, and indeed move, much quicker under the influence of a potential difference than can the, relatively speaking,  massive ions within the water.  And this is the key.

If we can provide a sufficiently short, fast, high voltage pulse across the metal electrodes, the electrons will react and can be building up (or depleting) while the ions are still just thinking about reacting.

Now, the water molecule, being a polar molecule (which is what makes water such a good dielectric) will align to the electric field. Though the water molecules are bigger than both the ions or electrons, in order to align, they only have to make an adjustment to their orientation. Conversely the majority of OH- ions have to battle their way through the water molecules in order to reach the electrode.

So, if we do things very fast, we can have the cathode charged up with electrons and the water molecules all aligned before the majority of ions in the water can reach the electrodes.  

Now, the normal Electric Double Layer Capacitor takes a while to form, because this is created by charges on the cathode and the ions at the electrodes in the water, and as long as the charges do not build up too high and so rise above the necessary voltage   over-potential (around 1.5 volts) to initiate Faraday electrolysis, this EDLC will remain in tact. Indeed this is the principle behind commercial EDLCs.

Commercial EDLCs are low voltage, very high capacitance, DC capacitors. They employ activated graphite as electrodes because it provides a phenomenal surface area in a very small package, and graphite electrodes with a suitable electrolyte also increases the voltage over-potential to initiate Faraday electrolysis to around 4 volts.  If the voltage exceeds this 4 volts, then charges diffuse across the very thin virtual dielectric and current flows.  

If we apply a relatively long pulse then the normal EDLC has time to form at the electrodes, and if the voltage over-potential is surpassed then current will flow and usual Faraday electrolysis ensues.  But we don't want normal Faraday electrolysis to be the primary process taking place because we know the limitations of Faraday electrolysis in terms of power efficiency. In order to avoid this happening, we have to provide high voltage pulses that are extremely short and sharp.

By applying a very short, very high voltage pulse, the normal EDLC does not have time to form. But, the water molecules do have time to align within the electric field created between the plates as the electrons build up and deplete on the electrodes, and this gives rise to a different kind of Electric Double-Layer Capacitor. Different, because this capacitor is a result of the charges on the electrodes and the polar property of the water molecules aligning to those charges as opposed to charges on the electrodes facing the ions within the water. So at the cathode we have electrons faced by the more +ve hydrogen atoms of the aligned water molecule, and at the anode we have a positively charged electrode faced by the more negative oxygen atoms.

So, if the voltage pulse is of too short a duration the normal EDLC won't have time to form, but more importantly if this short pulse is of a very high voltage, then high energy electrons at the cathode will carry their momentum (the flywheel effect) and they will fly into and react directly with the water molecules to give OH- and H. There will of course be some Faraday electrolysis action after if the normal EDLC has chance to form due to some charges remaining on the electrodes, but the initial high voltage pulse will create gas without current actually flowing through the water.
This then, is the direction in which my research and experiments are headed.

Lynx

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #1, on October 12th, 2013, 11:07 AM »
Thanks for sharing Farrah, appreciate it

Jeff Nading

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #2, on October 12th, 2013, 07:59 PM »
Very cool Farrah, look forward to more of your experimentation and analysis. :cool::D:P
Ps: I would hope others see the need now, to stay on topic, thanks for posting.:D  

Matt Watts

My new theory
« Reply #3, on October 13th, 2013, 01:09 AM »
My new theory, key points:

1.  Water has a memory.  This memory may be very short but possibly not so short that it cannot be utilized/accessed by modern electronics.
2.  With this memory, water may have the ability to decipher and react to apparent power separate from actual power.

If this theory is correct, a voltage potential can be created across the cell, then immediately swapped-out via electronics to a current flow.  The water will then see and remember the voltage potential but also feel the actual current flow and react as though it is receiving the product (power) of both peak voltage and peak current.

Example scenario:

Apply 100 volts to the cell by way of an inductor (choke).  Remove the voltage prior to the inductor actually allowing current flow.  At the same time the voltage is removed, replace it with a small voltage (i.e. 3 volts for a single water gap cell) at very high current (i.e. 100 amps).  The assumption based on the theory is that the water will respond as though it sees 10,000 watts of perceived power and generate gas accordingly.

Timing and circuitry will be critical to test this theory appropriately, but with modern electronics and digital control logic, should be possible.

Positive results will directly prove water does indeed have a memory as rumored by some investigators.  It will also solve all present and future Stan Meyer implementations.  With perceived power being the out-of-phase peak current and peak voltage, actual power will be considerably less than this product.

Negative results will prove this memory is not applicable to electrical impulses, giving us another avenue of investigation.

Anyone willing to design a control circuit to test this theory is encouraged to share their implementation for review.

Farrah Day

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #4, on October 13th, 2013, 01:15 AM »
Bear in mind that it's just a theory at present, and very hard to prove, especially for a home experimenter.  

However, you'll note just what an important part the mass difference of electrons and ions play in this theory.

Also, the need for short, very high voltage pulses is a key piece of the process. In the above scenario a Meyeresque step-charge effect would be undesirable as this would simply, continually build the charges on the electrodes to a point where normal Faraday electrolysis is constantly occurring.


Ravenous Emu

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #5, on October 13th, 2013, 05:46 PM »Last edited on October 13th, 2013, 05:47 PM by Ravenous Emu
Quote from Farrah Day on October 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM
...So at the cathode we have electrons faced by the more +ve oxygen atom of the aligned water molecule, and at the anode we have a positively charged electrode faced by the more negative hydrogen atoms...
Farrah,

Excellent post.
Please, help me understand your point here. It may be a little nit picky...

Should it not be that:
Oxygen having your partial negative charge and Hydrogen having your partial positive charge?
:D :cool: :P

FaradayEZ

RE: My new theory
« Reply #6, on October 13th, 2013, 06:02 PM »
Quote from Matt Watts on October 13th, 2013, 01:09 AM
My new theory, key points:

1.  Water has a memory.  This memory may be very short but possibly not so short that it cannot be utilized/accessed by modern electronics.
2.  With this memory, water may have the ability to decipher and react to apparent power separate from actual power.
I do think water has a memory, even for longer periods. But i don't think it will react like a Pavlov conditioned dog. But then again, how far the conditioning of water can go i don't know. The answers lie in testing things. :)


Farrah Day

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #7, on October 14th, 2013, 10:03 AM »
Quote from Ravenous Emu on October 13th, 2013, 05:46 PM
Quote from Farrah Day on October 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM
...So at the cathode we have electrons faced by the more +ve oxygen atom of the aligned water molecule, and at the anode we have a positively charged electrode faced by the more negative hydrogen atoms...
Farrah,

Excellent post.
Please, help me understand your point here. It may be a little nit picky...

Should it not be that:
Oxygen having your partial negative charge and Hydrogen having your partial positive charge?
:D :cool: :P
Feel free to be nit-picky... you are correct! I'll amend my original post. It's very easy when your mind is buzzing to make elementary mistakes - glad you picked up on it.

Matt Watts

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #8, on October 14th, 2013, 10:32 AM »
Quote from Farrah Day on October 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM
This then, is the direction in which my research and experiments are headed.
So you are going to need some physical devices to test with.  I'm most certain gps would be happy to build you a test cell.  At the conference we pretty much came to the conclusion that a particular cell be used as a baseline for comparison and without a doubt, gps' cell fits that requirement to a T.

Ravenous Emu

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #9, on October 14th, 2013, 11:53 AM »Last edited on October 14th, 2013, 11:54 AM by Ravenous Emu
Quote from Farrah Day on October 14th, 2013, 10:03 AM
...It's very easy when your mind is buzzing to make elementary mistakes...
and how :D :cool: :P

FaradayEZ

RE: Possible science behind a Meyer-type WFC
« Reply #10, on October 14th, 2013, 12:09 PM »Last edited on October 14th, 2013, 12:13 PM by FaradayEZ
Quote from Farrah Day on October 14th, 2013, 10:03 AM
Quote from Ravenous Emu on October 13th, 2013, 05:46 PM
Quote from Farrah Day on October 12th, 2013, 11:00 AM
...So at the cathode we have electrons faced by the more +ve oxygen atom of the aligned water molecule, and at the anode we have a positively charged electrode faced by the more negative hydrogen atoms...
Farrah,

Excellent post.
Please, help me understand your point here. It may be a little nit picky...

Should it not be that:
Oxygen having your partial negative charge and Hydrogen having your partial positive charge?
:D :cool: :P
Feel free to be nit-picky... you are correct! I'll amend my original post. It's very easy when your mind is buzzing to make elementary mistakes - glad you picked up on it.
Oh no, i also saw it but i thought there must be something else going on, you wouldn't make those mistakes again and again....tssssskk  really.. :)


(I guess you're more human then i thought...;)