hho as combastion engine fuel

aquabait

hho as combastion engine fuel
« on April 14th, 2013, 10:41 PM »
Dear Friends;

I would like to ask few obvious questions (sorry if I missed answers in discussion topics)

1, What is near to ideal compression ratio for burning hho gas in combustion engine? (4 stroke with injectors)
2, What side effects happen on combustion engine after running hho for long time?
   (Rust on exhaust valves?)

Ladislav

Matt Watts

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #1, on April 15th, 2013, 12:20 AM »Last edited on April 15th, 2013, 12:33 AM by Matt Watts
Quote from aquabait on April 14th, 2013, 10:41 PM
Dear Friends;

I would like to ask few obvious questions (sorry if I missed answers in discussion topics)

1, What is near to ideal compression ratio for burning hho gas in combustion engine? (4 stroke with injectors)
2, What side effects happen on combustion engine after running hho for long time?
   (Rust on exhaust valves?)

Ladislav
I know the comp ratio in a diesel engine is just a little too high and a gasoline engine is a bit too low, so somewhere right around 15:1 seems optimum if you keep close watch on the temperature.  Auto flash point is what you adjust on.  You want the fuel mix to be real close to this flash point, but never above it under worst conditions.  That way you get an easy ignition and the ignition triggers when you want it to instead of when it does.  There is also another factor to consider...

With a gasoline engine, you can pump as much fuel into the cylinder as it can handle, but with HHO it is not likely you can make enough of it to keep up with the engine demand.  In fact, very unlikely that you could actually blow the engine up.  This means that when running HHO, you pretty much want the load constant, then setup your fuel delivery to match.  So it would appear that HHO wouldn't be a very good fuel for something like an automobile with constantly changing load conditions.  With something like a generator, yeah, it would probably work quite well.  And if the load conditions are relatively static, then you could bump up the compression ratio to some optimal value.  One more thing to consider though, ignition timing.

With HHO, you have a pretty fast burn, which means you probably want to trigger the ignition AFTER top dead center.  When you do that, you just wasted a fair chunk of your compression.  With a quick burning fuel, you want to place the majority of the expanding gases right around 90 degrees after TDC--that's the mechanical point in the stroke where you have the maximum leverage on the crankshaft and can develop maximum torque.  So lets say you fire at 50 degrees ATDC and the burn lasts to about 130 degrees ATDC.  You will capture the majority of the kinetic energy.  But look what you did to the compression firing that late.  You wasted all the energy to smash the gas down tight, then let a bunch of it release 50 degrees ATDC.  That's energy you mostly just converted to heat and did no useful work with.

Hence, the reason for using direct injectors.  Inject rapidly just prior to ignition.  So what you want is basically a hybrid between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine.  Direct inject ATDC near the ignition point, fire, then collect as much energy as you can.  So if you think about an engine with one exhaust valve, no intake valve, a direct injector and a spark plug would be the most ideal method to turn HHO into rotating mechanical energy.  Take that idea and go a little further and ditch the whole piston engine design.  Use a turbine chamber instead.  Boots-2b1 has designed just such an motor made specifically for HHO:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=833&pid=10639#pid10639


The first side effect I have run into is water mixed in the engine oil.  You either have to have very extensive crankcase ventilation or very good piston rings.  And yes, you can get rust.  Titanium valves with an all aluminum head would likely last longer than anything with steel in it.


And welcome aboard Ladislav.  Hope I was able to answer your questions.

aquabait

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #2, on April 15th, 2013, 01:44 AM »
Thank you for your ansver;
Firstly please accept my written english , it is bad sory.

I would like to free myself from electricity cost for ever and I have spent lots of time to observe Ross and his experiments.
There is patern that is even confirmed by Mythbusters ( run engine on hydrogen and nearly burn themselfs)

I have good friend that invented motor long time ago and - yes he didnt sell the idea becourse his condition was always that this motor must be used. I have spoken to him about using Hho gas and we been just going to set up requirements for compression ratio.  OK  15: 1  I got it.
He is stil alive due NOT going public with this .
Please study his patent and ask me if you need clarify anything.


You are correct that intake valve is not nesesery nor exhoust valve. Injection of Hho via injector with flush back suppresing and common rail presurized again with flushback aresting after and before pump . buffer reservoar as part of common rail and as supply into the pump ( sensors for water and pressure)
Spark plugs with aqua plasma to promote rapid burning and ecu programed fpr correct ignition and duty cycle of injector. As Ross proved that extra bit of air will do larger explosion , hence slightly intake of Air . Motor will be as per patent and there will be injection of non volotile oil to keep lubrication - this needs to checked on reactivity with hho.
This system will run generator - most likely with strong magnets and output will be rectified to DC bus   - 200V - 350V   . in first stage this system vould work all the time that will requirement on quitness of combastion and most likely some noise canceling cabinet. second stage is battery and BMS . the dc will be automaticaly inverted to precize 230V 50Hz  say 11 kW inverter ( a little overkill )

My friends patent is  http://www.google.com/patents/US3937605?pg=PA1&dq=3937605&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pLdrUbqvDYiyiQf0noHIBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA

Matt Watts

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #3, on April 15th, 2013, 06:17 AM »
You have the right idea.

There are at least two of us on this forum actively pursuing a gasoline to HHO genset conversion.  My needs are nearly identical to yours--some sort of generator system that can handle the electrical requirements of my home.
Quote from "aquabait"
He is still alive due NOT going public with this.
My viewpoint is to not live in fear.  The time has come to do what needs to be done, regardless of consequences.  Living in fear is not living, it is being a slave.  No more.



aquabait

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #6, on April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM »
Thankyou for your support;

I will start with silly question on Ross; what camera is Ross using for filming what he is doing?  It seams to me good quality good sound .
I would like to document our progress for anyone in the group.

Facts;

I managed to trace down inventor of this engine , and got permition to build it .
There is 6 new patents on vanes in this motor. Please dont take it lightly this little device is very poverfull and it is equivalent two stroke to 6 cylinder 3 vanes or 8 cylinder 4vanes  

This motor has running prototype on petrol ( brrrch) and with your help we will develop this motor to love hho.

to start to move thing along ( i dont want to reinvent the wheel) i would like your advice on hydrolyzer that is working well and is safe I thing for this experiment I would like to get system running up to 50 l/m hho production if needed.
I'm redy to purchase this.

second on my list is to try to set up pump for hho that will pressurize hho to workable pressure for injector ( will use ordinary car injector - can explain)
Any sugestions for gas pump?  i was thinking vane pump like on the air tools motors please i'm opened in yor input

there is lots of aftermarket kits to change carburator set up on injector with engine managment ECU fully programable - can you advice please which one is best for our aplication?  we need to control spark timing and injector timing with duty cycle timing
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/other/powertrain/small/
http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

is any of these ok or there is onother brand that is more flexible for prototiping with hho.?
To give quick and powerfull spark - plasma like
http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html
anyone tried this?
Thank you
Ladislav

Matt Watts

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #7, on April 15th, 2013, 09:37 PM »
Quote from aquabait on April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM
Thankyou for your support;

I will start with silly question on Ross; what camera is Ross using for filming what he is doing?  It seams to me good quality good sound .
I would like to document our progress for anyone in the group.
I believe Russ uses an iPhone.
Quote from aquabait on April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM
Facts;

I managed to trace down inventor of this engine , and got permition to build it .
There is 6 new patents on vanes in this motor. Please dont take it lightly this little device is very poverfull and it is equivalent two stroke to 6 cylinder 3 vanes or 8 cylinder 4vanes  

This motor has running prototype on petrol ( brrrch) and with your help we will develop this motor to love hho.

to start to move thing along ( i dont want to reinvent the wheel) i would like your advice on hydrolyzer that is working well and is safe I thing for this experiment I would like to get system running up to 50 l/m hho production if needed.
I'm redy to purchase this.
50 LpM is a LOT of gas and will require a LOT of electricity for brute force electrolysis.  If you take a look at this one rated for 12 LpM, you will get an idea:
http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/gfx5.htm

Are you certain a scaled-down system wouldn't be a better approach as a proof of concept?
Quote from aquabait on April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM
second on my list is to try to set up pump for hho that will pressurize hho to workable pressure for injector ( will use ordinary car injector - can explain)
Any sugestions for gas pump?  i was thinking vane pump like on the air tools motors please i'm opened in yor input
This might be a little hairy for HHO.  Pressurizing HHO is not at all recommended.  Any such attempt should be kept to a minimum quantity and be as close as possible to the injection port where it will be used.  Heat and/or flame must be tightly controlled.  If you have never played with HHO, I will tell you by experience making a bomb is childs play.  The stuff is extremely powerful.  I have a 2 quart electrolyte reservoir that was shredded when my bubbler and flashback arrestor failed.  Mind you the reservoir had an over-pressure release, but the gas burns so fast it couldn't displace this quick enough.  And that's at ambient pressure.  At even 20 psi, I probably wouldn't be here any more to tell you the story of what happened.

I would highly recommend a design alteration that allows for the pressurization to take place inside the motor and not externally.  And be done in such a way that a detonation event is contained and converted to mechanical energy instead of a fragmentation grenade.
Quote from aquabait on April 15th, 2013, 04:41 PM
there is lots of aftermarket kits to change carburator set up on injector with engine managment ECU fully programable - can you advice please which one is best for our aplication?  we need to control spark timing and injector timing with duty cycle timing
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/other/powertrain/small/
http://www.ecotrons.com/2_Stroke_Small_Engine_EFI_kit.html

is any of these ok or there is onother brand that is more flexible for prototiping with hho.?
To give quick and powerfull spark - plasma like
http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/index.html
anyone tried this?
Thank you
Ladislav
Custom all the way.  You can use a basic ignition and apply plasma spark as I did but for the engine management, write it yourself.  HHO has such drastically different  characteristics from gasoline I wouldn't fight trying to use something off-the-shelf.  I have written my own engine management system for a formula race car and can tell you that digital electronics have evolved well beyond what I had available back in the 90's.  I recently bought a little 100 dollar Cypress development board that can run circles around what I had to custom build 20 years ago.

aquabait

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #8, on April 15th, 2013, 10:44 PM »
 I have sent email to Steve to get shiping cost on GXx5
I agree with you that 12+ l/m wil do . Anyway we can controll production of the volume of gas. Scale down gas production is OK if there will be shortage for motor aditional gas can be produced.
In respect of electronic , should I use Stan Meyers pulsating frequency DC system?

Did enyone check what pressure is "safe"  for HHO??
I taking on the board your comment but injector must have a little working pressure otherwise we will not get gas moving.  

I would highly recommend a design alteration that allows for the pressurization to take place inside the motor and not externally. And be done in such a way that a detonation event is contained and converted to mechanical energy instead of a fragmentation grenade.

You make me thinking - one option is use ordinary solenoid to let gas to go to cylinder via non return valve and purge this cavity with presurized air to get rid of hho residue.  ( flush arestors before solenoid )\

Would you please help with ECU programing ?
Ladislav

Matt Watts

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #9, on April 16th, 2013, 06:14 PM »
Quote from aquabait on April 15th, 2013, 10:44 PM
In respect of electronic , should I use Stan Meyers pulsating frequency DC system?

Did enyone check what pressure is "safe"  for HHO??

Would you please help with ECU programing?
I see no need for a pulsing circuit unless someone can show a definite increase in production rate for the same power consumed.

Standard atmospheric pressure is already 14.7 psi, which means you will need to draw a vacuum to pull the gas in.  My thinking then is to use a normally aspirated engine intake system at least initially.  My concern about pressurizing the gas is that you concentrate it in an area that may not be able to withstand an unintentional ignition.  Also, if you consider the production vs. consumption rates of the gas, I think you'll see quite obviously, the engine can handle way more HHO gas than you can possibly produce for it, therefore at higher RPMs, you'll never be able to take advantage of the engines inherent volumetric efficiency anyway.  See what I mean?  You can't compress something if you don't have enough of it in the first place.

If you run the engine with a static load, you can also use static timing which eliminates the need for a complex ECU.  At such time it becomes prudent to enhance the electronics, I can provide some assistance.

FaradayEZ

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #10, on April 17th, 2013, 02:01 AM »
Nice work aquabait and Dog1,

I hope with the speed aqua wants to go he really takes some time to get to know HHO. Like making a good flasharrestor always seems to go wrong the first times. So playing safely with HHO will bring the right respect for it, will let you do the effort for escapehatches and stuff.
For production shortages and startup, i only can think of using a in between buffer with hho

Success!

aquabait

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #11, on April 19th, 2013, 04:49 AM »
HI

I see no need for a pulsing circuit unless someone can show a definite increase in production rate for the same power consumed.[/quote]It make me wonder if anyone did some serious testing of the systems for production of hho on the market . Or I have missed somthing?
There are claims after claims that gospel low consumption and high production?!?
Anyone mapped out production systems? Any comments appretiated.


 I was watching you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jVuFbKNal_U#!
Hydroxy Has More Explosive Pressure With Extra Ambient Air??? "Burn-O-Meter"  from Russ. Russ would you please comment if you work out mixing of hho with air on percentage and what percentage of air starts reduce reaction???
Russ jig is perfect for testing , it will be grat if he can address this test again with controll and variable air egainst exact the same volume of hho ( for every Stroke)

In respect of ECU I believe that MOTEC M84 will be the best to start with on real engine test.

I'm working on the web site that will have all subjects with hand on displayed to provoke a bit of entusiasm from you guys -:)

Regards Ladislav

aquabait

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #12, on April 22nd, 2013, 05:44 AM »
HI
I'm working on Stans water cell;  just one of for now

What results I should get in respect of energy cosumption and gas production?\


Thanks

Matt Watts

RE: hho as combastion engine fuel
« Reply #13, on April 22nd, 2013, 06:46 AM »Last edited on April 22nd, 2013, 07:14 AM by Matt Watts
Quote from aquabait on April 22nd, 2013, 05:44 AM
HI
I'm working on Stans water cell;  just one of for now

What results I should get in respect of energy cosumption and gas production?
I'm afraid, "Results may very."   Until someone actually finds the secret and reveals it.