Ambient Heat Engine

Jeff Nading

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #25, on April 16th, 2012, 03:31 PM »
Quote from Tom Booth on April 16th, 2012, 03:23 PM
Last night my neighbor asked me to see if I could do something with his computer. I got it working. On the way out to go home he gave me an old IBM Thinkpad 770 laptop with a cracked monitor. Apparently it had been dropped and the screen was fractured.

Not knowing what else to do with it, I took out the hard drive this morning and dissassembled it with the idea of using it for a Tesla Turbine for this project. 4 GB IBM model DTCA-24090 E182115 HG. Rated 5V 500mA.

I never had one of these things apart before, but this looks good and solid. Nice metal platters (Some HD platters are plastic).

The drive motor is built right into or around the bearing in some way. I wondered if it were used as a Tesla turbine, could the motor be used as a generator ?

I found this video - so I guess the answer is yes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h48XYdJGfKs

Though I think the spacing between the platters will need to be reduced. It seems that less than 30 thousandth of an inch (0.016 - 0.030) is generally recomended depending on diameter, fluid velocity etc. Since this is a small laptop hard drive closed is no doubt better.

As is, the platters look to be spaced about 1/8 inch apart or about 6X more space than recomended.

Here is something else I found that looks like an interesting idea:

Towards the end of the page under "Optimizations:". Using an "Air Amplifier" nozzle.

http://www.stanford.edu/~hydrobay/lookat/tt.html

Would this boost power to the Tesla Turbine?

Unfortunately the writer's conclussion is: "efficiencies: YTBD..." That was in 2008.

Interesting idea though as these nozzles are supposed to increase air flow by up to 25 times over input. Some sort of vortex phenomenon.
Yes Tom, the motor in the hard drive is a stepper motor and it will produce voltage enough to light up an led.

Tom Booth

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #26, on April 17th, 2012, 08:20 AM »
Thanks, I kind of figured the output wouldn't be much. From what I've read I think that maybe something that draws a heavier, preferably variable, load might be better for experimenting. From what I've read, to produce the cooling effect, the load should be enough to reduce the disk speed down to about 50% of the air input velocity. Though I've also read that Tesla Turbines are more "efficient" at high speeds - near to the air input speed and efficiency is generally measured by the degree of cooling. So... I don't really know.

I also suspect some other sort of turbine might be generally better for this sort of thing, though the "blade-less" Turbine has a number of advantages I like. If the temperatures drop below freezing, ice accumulating on the turbine blades is a problem. With a blade-less turbine, the ice might just get spun off. It could double as an ice maker! It runs quieter, but mostly it's just easier to build.

About the 3D modeling stuff. My laptop is an older IBM ThinkPad with Windows 2000. Not much newer than the one I just tore apart for the Hard Drive Platters. I don't think it will run any of those 3D modeling programs unless there is some older versions that would work. I may need to invest in a new computer to do the 3D stuff.

Jeff Nading

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #27, on April 17th, 2012, 10:52 AM »
Quote from Tom Booth on April 17th, 2012, 08:20 AM
Thanks, I kind of figured the output wouldn't be much. From what I've read I think that maybe something that draws a heavier, preferably variable, load might be better for experimenting. From what I've read, to produce the cooling effect, the load should be enough to reduce the disk speed down to about 50% of the air input velocity. Though I've also read that Tesla Turbines are more "efficient" at high speeds - near to the air input speed and efficiency is generally measured by the degree of cooling. So... I don't really know.

I also suspect some other sort of turbine might be generally better for this sort of thing, though the "blade-less" Turbine has a number of advantages I like. If the temperatures drop below freezing, ice accumulating on the turbine blades is a problem. With a blade-less turbine, the ice might just get spun off. It could double as an ice maker! It runs quieter, but mostly it's just easier to build.

About the 3D modeling stuff. My laptop is an older IBM ThinkPad with Windows 2000. Not much newer than the one I just tore apart for the Hard Drive Platters. I don't think it will run any of those 3D modeling programs unless there is some older versions that would work. I may need to invest in a new computer to do the 3D stuff.
Hey Tom, I would download sketchup and try if before looking into an new computer, unless you just want a new one.:D

Tom Booth

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #28, on April 17th, 2012, 04:30 PM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 17th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Hey Tom, I would download sketchup and try if before looking into an new computer, unless you just want a new one.:D
I guess I could try it, but the Sketchup website states that my operating system is "not supported". I'll figure something out. My neighbor had another desktop computer he was trying to get rid of. Something was wrong with it but maybe it could be fixed. It seemed pretty loaded. Better than 1 Gig processor I think but I'll have to take another look at it.

Meanwhile, here are some photos of the old laptop hard drive:



For size comparison:



It does not spin anywhere near as freely as I was expecting. Seems it would take quite a bit of air flow to get it moving.

When I spin it by hand as fast as possible it only spins a second and stops.

Jeff Nading

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #29, on April 17th, 2012, 06:05 PM »
Quote from Tom Booth on April 17th, 2012, 04:30 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 17th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Hey Tom, I would download sketchup and try if before looking into an new computer, unless you just want a new one.:D
I guess I could try it, but the Sketchup website states that my operating system is "not supported". I'll figure something out. My neighbor had another desktop computer he was trying to get rid of. Something was wrong with it but maybe it could be fixed. It seemed pretty loaded. Better than 1 Gig processor I think but I'll have to take another look at it.

Meanwhile, here are some photos of the old laptop hard drive:



For size comparison:



It does not spin anywhere near as freely as I was expecting. Seems it would take quite a bit of air flow to get it moving.

When I spin it by hand as fast as possible it only spins a second and stops.
Cool Tom, I think the stepper motor could be dragging it down some, you might try a full sized desktop hard drive [more weight spinning], the disks are larger, I just took 7 of them apart to get the little bearings out of them, for the wax extruder I'm building, they will work beautifully, the disks we've used in the garden to scare the birds away:D:P

Tom Booth

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #30, on April 18th, 2012, 02:54 PM »
Another thing I've been working on in relation to this engine is a new (as far as I know) kind of regenerative head exchanger or "regenerator".

One problem with most LTD type engines is that they do not incorporate any kind of regenerator whatsoever.

The problem is how to build a regenerator into the displacer without simultaneously introducing a lot of additional "dead air space".

I thought up an arrangement that might solve the problem.

According to various sources, such as this Wiki article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_heat_exchanger
Quote
"The regenerative heat exchanger gives a considerable net savings in energy, since most of the heat energy is reclaimed nearly in a thermodynamically reversible way. This type of heat exchanger can have a thermal efficiency of over 90%, transferring almost all the relative heat energy from one flow direction to the other. Only a small amount of extra heat energy needs to be added at the hot end, and dissipated at the cold end, even to maintain very high or very low temperatures"
Here is an illustration of what I came up with, where the regenerator is built right into the displacer:



By way of explanation; the thing at the top is the displacer chamber with the displacer/regenerator inside.

The regenerator is made up of very thin metal plates with very narrow air spaces between the plates, probably separated by thin gasket type material about .020 in thick (more or less)

In the midle of the stack of metal plates is a diaphragm which keeps air flowing through the regenerator rather than around it., thus as the displacer/regenerator moves up and down air gets channeled through holes in the plates. Each plate has a different configuration of holes so that the holes are staggered forcing the air to flow between the plates (as illustrated by the zig-zag arrow.

The blue disks shown illustrate one possible configuration for how the holes would be drilled in the plates - causing the air to flow from center to periphery between the plates. The gaskets between the plates could also have channels to reduce dead space and possibly direct the air flow, in a spiral for instance.

The close spacing makes for a lot of air to metal surface area for heat exchange so that as the HOT air flows through and between the plates it transfers heat to the plates and when moving in the other direction the COLD air passing between the plates reclaims that heat.

With such a design, I imagine that the displacer/regenerator could be much THINER than illustrated and the amount of Dead Air Space could be greatly reduced in comparison with other types of regenerators - usually consisting of something like a stainless steel mesh. like steel wool.

Unlike a steel wool mesh, the spacing between the plates and the air flow between the plates could be controlled by using different thickness gaskets cut with different types of channels.

symanuk

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #31, on May 2nd, 2012, 07:32 AM »
I am just watching a TV show on ceramics and they are talking about aerogel and the fact it is a mega insulator, something like 98% air.

Made me think of this thread, not sure if it is easy to get it moulded or not, but could be the kind of barrier between the hot and cold sides of your engine that would be highly effective.

Just chiming in with a thought!

FloatyBoaty

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #32, on May 2nd, 2012, 09:08 AM »Last edited on May 2nd, 2012, 09:51 AM by FloatyBoaty
Quote from symanuk on May 2nd, 2012, 07:32 AM
I am just watching a TV show on ceramics and they are talking about aerogel and the fact it is a mega insulator, something like 98% air.

Made me think of this thread, not sure if it is easy to get it moulded or not, but could be the kind of barrier between the hot and cold sides of your engine that would be highly effective.

Just chiming in with a thought!
This reminds me of an engine I once saw.  It was a 4-stroke gas engine, but it was separated so the intake and compression strokes were on one side and the power and exhaust strokes were on the other.  Shame I can't seem to find it...   The idea was to separate the hot and cold from the different strokes to improve efficiency.  If someone finds it, do post a link.
I found a link that give you an idea of what's what:  http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2011-01/split-cycle-engine-design-could-improve-fuel-economies-50-percent

DaS Energy

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #33, on July 11th, 2012, 07:32 AM »
[attachment=1974]Hello Tom.
Hello Jef,

I fully agree with both. To Jeff R744 (CO2) now replace Freon. To Tom do not go direct cylinder to cylinder but via a cooling chanber. Only need one piston it draws a vacuum in expansion chamber before gas has chance to expand in cylinder overiding valve spring and continuing piston on power stroke.

Peter

     


Jeff Nading

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #34, on July 11th, 2012, 08:02 AM »
Quote from DaS Energy on July 11th, 2012, 07:32 AM
Hello Tom.
Hello Jef,

I fully agree with both. To Jeff R744 (CO2) now replace Freon. To Tom do not go direct cylinder to cylinder but via a cooling chanber. Only need one piston it draws a vacuum in expansion chamber before gas has chance to expand in cylinder overiding valve spring and continuing piston on power stroke.

Peter
Thanks Peter, good info, Jeff.:cool:

DaS Energy

RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #35, on July 13th, 2012, 12:50 AM »
Hello Jeff,
Thank you.
Peter
RE: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #36, on February 21st, 2013, 11:39 PM »Last edited on February 22nd, 2013, 12:10 AM by DaS Energy
Hello Floaty Boatie,

Sorry for delay in reply, I failed to require when posting.
 
Thanks for the information. Its interesting to know especialy when we also have a similiar engine.

It may be either combustion or heat, the heat/combustion stoke occurs on one side and the intake compression on the other.

The intake is Air/ or high expansion gas.


http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/DaSEngine_zps466b9b7d.png[img]
Quote from deepanvi on February 21st, 2013, 11:17 PM
If ultimately the Sun is your heat source and outer space is your sink, then the only way to have an ambient heat engine would be to make it .
The problem with "if" is my Aunty would my Uncle if only she had balls.

The solution is not to need the Sun as your heat source, nor outerspace as your heat sink.

Better to use ambient temperature so long as it above -10*C and allow the refrigerant gas R744 (CO2) to do its thing of flash cooling.
Hello Tom,

Like your work.   Another means of exchange is hot cold change over occuring at the base not the top.  A thermocline putting cold in at the bottom and heat at the top gives 100% efficiency except for any wall leakage.  Effectively what happens is heat must be given off for cold to occur. The heat, going into cold water at base of thermocline  rises to the hot water surface where the heat intake is.


Tom Booth

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #37, on January 20th, 2015, 04:27 AM »
Quote from Jeff Nading on April 12th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Tom you are absolutely right on using temperature differential to do work, and the way you explained it is correct. I use to work as an aircraft mechanic, working with jet engines. Jet aircraft manufactures tap hot compressed air off the compressor turbine part of the engine, run it through an orifice of sorts, which drops the temperature drastically to about freezing, then pipe this cold air into the cabin and seating area for the passengers, as air-conditioning, no Freon involved. I do think PTFE would be to soft, what I think would work would be siliconized aluminum. Good post Tom.:D
You have experience with the "Air Cycle System" used on aircraft. Could you explain that in more detail?

What I was mainly wondering about it is...

Could this work more along the lines of a conventional refrigeration system using higher compression?

Most actual Air-Cycle machines I've seen (Not firsthand but online info) are high velocity air flow. Most conventional refrigeration systems on the other hand are high compression. I'm assuming that the net result is the same, or would be.
Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #38, on April 16th, 2015, 08:09 PM »
FYI (everyone) - I have launched an Indigogo "crowdfunding" campaign to raise money to build some prototype engines based on the ideas discussed here. Here is the link to the project: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/exploring-cold-hole-technology/x/10539009

I've been working at this idea for quite a while but progress has been slow due to lack of time and resources and I'm not getting any younger. Any comments or suggestions would be most welcome.

Thanks,

Tom

~Russ

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #39, on April 17th, 2015, 08:59 AM »Last edited on April 17th, 2015, 09:01 AM
nice, i think crowd funding is a good idea.

your text is good, your just showing what your idea is and what you want to do. No clams, just here is the idea and "i want to do more"

i think its good!

~Russ

Tom Booth

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #40, on April 17th, 2015, 07:58 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on April 17th, 2015, 08:59 AM
nice, i think crowd funding is a good idea.

your text is good, your just showing what your idea is and what you want to do. No clams, just here is the idea and "i want to do more"

i think its good!

~Russ
Thanks Russ,

I'm not sure how it will go over. From what I've seen, crowdfunding can be rather fickle. Someone gets a million dollars to test out a cookie recipe or something while someone else with a project that could make a significant impact on the world gets nothing. It's hard to figure what the result might be.

No that I have anything against cookies.

~Russ

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #41, on April 20th, 2015, 07:13 AM »
yeah, i agree, but what counts is that you are trying it!!! most don't even take that step...  so your one step ahead of the game :)

~Russ

firepinto

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #42, on April 22nd, 2015, 06:38 PM »
Maybe it could be an Ambient Heat Powered Cookie Machine.  ;)  It could give the girl scouts some competition, or maybe revolutionize their production.  :) 

I hope your crowd funding works out. :cool:

Tom Booth

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #43, on August 17th, 2016, 11:50 PM »
Well, the indigogo crowdfunding project didn't get very far. Indigogo never made it public at all, meaning nobody could see it or find it through a search engine.

It's been over a year but I'm giving it another go on a different crowdfunding site that does not have such tight time restrictions and such. It seems a bit more flexible > gofundme that is.

If anyone would like to participate, comment, help out of just follow the progress:

https://www.gofundme.com/2fsahck

There is also some stuff on my Facebook page that might be of interest. Feel free to send a friend request if you are on Facebook too.

https://www.facebook.com/tom.booth.31508

My resources are very limited. I do think this is potentially quite important though and have spent about $3,000 on equipment so hopefully I can at least build some kind of small model as a "proof of concept" but I could use all the help I can get.

~Russ

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #44, on August 18th, 2016, 02:15 PM »
never give up Tom, its the way we all work,! Best!!!

~Russ

Tom Booth

Re: Ambient Heat Engine
« Reply #45, on August 19th, 2016, 12:05 PM »
Thanks!