phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils


Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #25, on July 19th, 2017, 07:56 AM »
tested with one added resonant coil, and it works. resonance is lower but this is because the other coil is needed to make it balanced again.
I can ground either side. so it seems i can create opposite phases.

now adding other coil
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #26, on July 19th, 2017, 08:15 AM »
with both coils added each on one aide of the center resonant coil, the resonant frequency drops even lower to 37.05khz
now i can only use 52% duty cycle before current limiter kicks in indicating higher source current (bad)

the resonant voltage rise of the coils is now also less. still off scale around 450V pp

with the out of phase signal it adds up to 900V pp rectifies to 1250v dc

not ideal. the side by side coils need added ferrite on the out sides to belance both windings again. now only one coil from the bifilar agains the center coil...

maybe try the cd sleeve coils they are tesla design so both coils are influenced at the same time... but... can i tune them down, i will need diffent caps probably
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #27, on July 19th, 2017, 08:21 AM »
frequency is getting to low. need less capaciance, so more capacitors in series. dont have them....

i want to get this working at 100khz as it seemed that was the biggest voltage rise.

enough for now.
the mkt10 0.22uf 400Vac caps dont get hot
so thats good to know. these caps work.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #28, on July 19th, 2017, 08:29 AM »
tested the voltage rise of the center resonant coil with and without the 2 added resonant coils at the same duty cycle.

with 2 added coils,@37.05khz 8 blocks (450Vpp)
without @56.65khz 7.8 blocks (425vpp)

isnt that strange? the voltage rise isnt loaded down with added coils. instead the frequeny drops and the voltage goes slightly up.

how many resonant coils could i add?

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« Reply #29, on July 19th, 2017, 08:43 AM »
I stacked the coils again,
but now the pulsed resonant is on the bottom.
the 2 added resonant coils on top.
both added coils show weak sines at the center connection and strong on the outside rim.

when the strong in phase signals are added, nothing changes.

when I cross connect both coils, inside of one coil to out side of other coil and vice versa.
BIG SPARKS. also current limmiting on igbt and resonant phase disappears on bottom pulsed coil (maybe due to current limiting).

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maximum voltage rise of the resomamt frequency
« Reply #30, on July 21st, 2017, 01:20 PM »
I've searched for the maximum resonant frequency voltage rise and plotted a graph to the best of my abilities. I had a limited supply of capacitors, but it gives a good picture.

what you see here is the effect of adding parallel capacitance to the coil.
I use a 1V pulse into the primary at 73% duty cycle. most frequencies draw 0.6A but at the the maximum it is 0.8A the Q is high.(narrow bandwidth maximum)

when no cap is added. the resonant frequency is 792khz and 9.6V

when i add a cap of 10nF, it gives the maximum at 101.35khz and 48V (!)
If I had a cap of 9nf or 9.5nf the voltage rise could even be higher.

Is this voltage rise due to the capacitance of the coil being equal to the added capacitance?

what conclusions can we make from this maximum voltage rise?

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #31, on July 21st, 2017, 01:58 PM »
I need more data to see what happens around the peak.
need lower capacitance 8.5nf 9nf 9.5nf
how high does it go? might there also be a drop at a slightly lower resonant frequency or is it one peak?
same energy, multiple resonant coils
« Reply #32, on July 22nd, 2017, 09:31 AM »
if I place 2 equal bifilar side by side coils, one on each side of the 10nF tuned coil (in the center inbetween)

then I measure the resonant voltage also in these coils slightly less voltage pp. BUT... I havent tuned them down! no added capacitance.
how can they resonate without being tuned?

also the resonant frequency of the center pulsed coil, tuned with the 10nF is NOT loosing its amplitude when the coils are added.
Also the frequency stays nearly the same.
101.45  khz without added coils
100.85 khz with added coils.

I used a 1V 0.04A dc, and 50% duty cycle with this test and got a 31.5V voltage pp (calculated from the scope)

If I shortcut a added coil, the center coil raises its res frequency to 146.55khz and the voltage goes down to 11.5V pp


Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #33, on July 22nd, 2017, 09:36 AM »
Again I have to think of the tesla turbine.
If i stack more and more coils, do they all resonate?
and if connect al the coils parallel does the energy add up?
if i rectify into a cap, does the cap charge faster? indicating more current?

this tickles my brain in a pleasent way.

resonance can be multiplied without loosing energy? hmmm :shocked:
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #34, on July 22nd, 2017, 10:39 AM »
10v dc charge in 10 seconds in a 100uF cap.  (0.02joule in 10 seconds)
charged by 1V 0.04A(0.04W)
if I wait longer it charges to 26.9V(0.36joules)
than the supply is 1V 0.06A(0.06W)

the tuned coil resonant voltage rises, as the voltage in the cap is being filled.

again the tuned coil, with 10nF parallel capacitance, res frequency at 100.63khz with 62% duty cycle
voltage rise at tuned coil is 42.5V pp

the cap is charged by the two untuned coils on top of the tuned resonant coils.

these 2 coils are series connected so the ends are in 180 phase. then the ends are connected to a standard bridge rectifier into the cap.

so still far from ideal.

if i place a second tuned coil on top
nothing happens. because i believe it should be out of phase. I cant reverse phase on this coil right now

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displacement current between 2 bifilar coils
« Reply #35, on July 22nd, 2017, 10:48 AM »
I guess the added coils are part of the resonant field produced by the center coil.
If i load the coil i kill the resonance.

this shows the resonant field is not only inside between the windings but also outside. but i already knew this.

what i would like is to make a field between 2 resonant coils that is out of phase, so the field basicly moves inbetween the two resonant coils from one to the other and back. maybe not with a 180 degree phase shift, but a 90 degree phase shift.

so that when one coil is max, the other is zero and vice versa.

creating a dielectric displacement current between the 2 coils that is picked up by a output coil placed in the alternating dielectric field.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #36, on July 22nd, 2017, 11:28 AM »Last edited on July 22nd, 2017, 11:30 AM
next test:
does the resonant voltage rise change if we  distribute the added 10nF over both windings, by creating 2x 20nF and put 20nf over one winding and 20nf over the other winding of the bifilar coil.
Is there a change?

two times 20nf in series creates 10nF
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #37, on July 22nd, 2017, 03:10 PM »
I connected the middle of the coil (bridge between the 2 windings) to the middle of the 22 capacitors (series 0.22 creating 10nF)
and there was totally no change at all.

I also placed my compass on the coil again in the center. totally no change in the needle direction.

but when i place it on the windings and i switch the power on and off, the needle deveates slightly, trying to align itself with the winding. this is odd, normally it is 90 to the windings (straight out from the center to the rim)

there is definitely something different than what i am usually am seeing.

Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #38, on July 23rd, 2017, 06:02 AM »
with the added 10nF parallel cap the input current of the pulse goes up. this is an indication of parallel resonance where the impedance goes up.

what will happen if i connect a 10nf capacitor between the coil and ground?
or between coil and probe

and what happens when i use this coil as primary and pulse it. what will the new secondary do?

magnetic ring toroid
« Reply #39, on July 23rd, 2017, 07:01 AM »
if the compass needle points to the center of the bifilar coil, the magnetic vortex is perpendicular to the windings around the core, at 90 degrees to the needle.(can be seen with a resonant bifilar pancake coil without added capacitance).

so if the needle points in the direction of the windings (with the 10nF added parallel cap) the magnetic vortex is now moving around the coils inward and out of the center. forming a MAGNETIC RING TOROID.

what would the back emf of this toroidal magnetic field do?
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #40, on July 23rd, 2017, 08:37 AM »
pulsing the tuned coil didnt reveil any interesting effects.

tried upping the pulse voltage. to 4.74V dc 0.42A the igbt switch giving a
pulse of 13.5V peak. with 62% duty cycle

resonant voltage is 350V peak to peak on the tuned

If I play with the duty cycle i get higher voltage rise but also a higher current draw.
the spikes become clearly higher. at 82% the peak is 150V
and resonant voltage is 400V
with 4.46V dc and 0.60A at the input of the igbt pulse.

So a short interuption of the magnetic field gives a strong b emf with a large voltage rise.

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #41, on July 25th, 2017, 01:01 PM »Last edited on July 25th, 2017, 01:05 PM
still have some tests to do with back emf redirection.

since the tuned coil with 10nF seems to draw more energy from the primary (maybe by the increased impedance due to parallel resonance)

I want to feed it with the b emf of the primary.

also, as the magnetic field line up with the windings (instead of being at 90 degrees) this might be a ring toroid magnetic field.

so I maybe need a parallel primary coil so it doesnt interupt the magnetic ring toroid around the 2 coils.(instead of primary around secondary that  I use now)

if it is a ring toroid the bemf of the primary being fed into the secondary could amply the ring toroid even more.

IF  all works, the 3rd resonant coil in betwee could be used to collect.

but this is still IF it all works.

But IF it all works, I would also like to try to collect from the resonant coil into a capacitor. then with a relais (low frequency) switch out the cap shortly to pulse a stepdown transformer, to lower the voltage and increase the the current. then rectify again a capture in capacitors.
from here on into a load. or if possible restore in the battery driving the system.

the new coils will again have to be retuned to maximum resonant voltage.

lots to do. but first having a little break
bemf capturing
« Reply #42, on July 31st, 2017, 06:58 AM »
tried to add a 500pF variable air capacitor in series with the 22x 0.22uf capacitors to fine tune the resonant frequency. but adding the air capacitor messes everything up. i tried upping the input voltage but no results.

then i tried to charge a capacitor(with the bemf from the primary pulsed coil) via a fast diode. this worked well. I charged a 4700Uf 16v cap quickly full in some seconds. so a 10nf would be even quicker.

at the same time the cap was charging the resonant coil did NOT change its amplitude.

I dont know if i logged it here on the forum.
but i tried running a bifilar coil stack from a 12v battery and rectify the resonant coil back into the battery.
this ran at 99.99 % efficiency. the voltage of the battery stayed constant. (pretty amazing by itself as it was running the igbt into the coils).

but with that setup it forgot to recapture the b emf. after doing this test im pretty sure i can charge the battery not only via the resonant coil but at the same time also with the b emf.
maybe. this might get over 100%
but... lets see it first. before we party
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #43, on July 31st, 2017, 10:18 AM »Last edited on August 1st, 2017, 11:55 AM by Matt Watts
I took the back emf from the pulsed coil, via a diode into a 10nF capacitor series connected to the tuned(with 10nf parallel) resonant coil.
then I placed a coil (equal to the tuned resonant coil) on top and below.

the 2 added resonant coils allready showed the resonant sine, with a ripple on top, due to being untuned. if tuned...?

the tuned 10nf coil is called CARC as in
Current Amlified Resonant Coil.
this article show more about this:

the article talks about a unifilar coil.
 a bifilar coil could be seen as a series coil/capacitor/coil.

the resonant frequency of the coil is tuned by the parallel capacitor to give the highest voltage rise.

then a equal size capacitor is connected in series, and fed with back emf.

open source!

the parallel capacitor is in resonance with the bifilar coil. giving the maximum voltage rise. If i put a compass on the coil it tries to allign with the windings (instead off pointing inwards as seen with untuned resonant coils).

this creates a ring toroid around the coil (i think).

the bemf fed into the series connected capacitor becomes in phase with the parallel resonant capacitor. amplifying the resonance.

BAM in your face. more open source.

now see if it works... order some caps to tune the output coils.

if it doensnt work maybe the first coil should be placed lile the stacked coils.

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Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #44, on July 31st, 2017, 10:37 AM »
also... the pulse generator can be replaced by a antenna, I've doen it before. the tinselcoil seems to do the same.

the coils produces a field where the antenna tunes into, no need for tuning any more...

just give it some power and let it ring.
once the fields are there the antenna controls the igbt.
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #45, on August 1st, 2017, 09:51 AM »
i tried tuning the resonant output coils today. changed the setup as it was unstable but it all acted very funny and still unstable.

I think its better if i use 3 equal size coils stacked. bottom pulsed, back emf into center tuned coil via series cap, and the top coil tuned as output.

I will have to tune the center coil again to get maximum voltage rise and then match the bemf series capacitor from the pulsed coil.

with this setup the collapse of the pulsed coil magnetic field(which is a dielectric event) is inside the ring toroid of the center coil. the ringtoroid would enclose all three coils.

this could be extended with another resonant coil and pulsed coil but thar would be after a proper result
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #46, on August 1st, 2017, 02:29 PM »
I made another side by side speaker wire phi ratio coil, so I could stack 3 of these coils.
I series connected and pulsed the top and bottom coil, and tuned the center coil again. it seemed to need 10nF so I used the 22x 0,22uf in series that I had used before.

Then I disconnected the top coil, and only pulsed the bottom coil. The top coil now became the resonant output coil.
Now the center tuned coil had a larger voltage rise, at a lower frequency. This I didnt expect (maybe I should try tuning the coil again with parallel capacitance).

Now I took the B emf from the pulsed coil, and fed it trough a series connected equal size 10nF capacitor into the center coil. This did not do anyting at all. I think the Bemf, needs to be higher in voltage, OR it needs to be converted into a sine wave(!) because the CARC center coil needs to add up. When it is in resonance, its a sine wave, so to add up, I would need to be fed with a sine wave, via the series connected cap.

This sine wave, I have seen before, with nelsons published circuit, based around a joulethief. the bemf is stepped up and the output becomes a Sine. This could be the sine needed.

The output coil shows the same sine as the center coil. It still is untuned. I still need to see what happens if I tune this output coil. But I think I first need to transform the B emf, into a Sine, and feed it into the series capacitor.

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current goes up
« Reply #47, on August 1st, 2017, 11:49 PM »
with the maximum resonant voltage rise the input current also goes up.

I find this interesting.
It indicates parallel resonance, where the impedance becomes high.

 there also should be a strong magnetic field. I havent tested that. I suspect the magnetic field is different than when at untuned resonance. Not pointing inwards but parallel to the windings. forming a magnetic ring torroid (90 degree phase shift).

how could we use this to our advantage?
could we feed it differntly because the current on the pulsed coil goes way up.
can we give it a different input?
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #48, on August 1st, 2017, 11:54 PM »
what if i feed the pulsed coil not by dc and turning it off and on with the igbt, but with b emf pulses, from another coil. the bemf can be stepped up via a transformer.

bemf is a much lower power source.
we could even turn the b emf spike into a sine wave again and feed that sinewave into the current amplified resonant coil
Re: phi ratio hole bifilar tesla pancake coils
« Reply #49, on August 2nd, 2017, 12:20 AM »
this is what Master Nelson said about this:

you need use inductance of a coil to  that could generate considerable pressure (bemf) to fill the tank capacitor with "cold" electricity (without magnetic component) to after could discharge in very sharp pulses in the primary of main bifilar pancake coil.

charging a capacitor with bemf from a high inductance coil (bifilar with added ferrite)

discharge the capacitor into the bifilar.
the capacitor needs to be the right size, it must be the parallel tuning cap.

being 10nF it should fill fast with bemf. even one shot... need to check without the series capacitor. bemf diode straight into the tuned coil.

another quote from Nelson:
You should know that is very important to tune the collector coil use a high voltage capacitor of low value (start with 10nf ) until you have the max output of the coil . Only by example a small capacitor value in range of 1 nano farad could made a dramatically change the output  when is chosen the right capacitor

I tried tuning the output coil, but i havent tried adding high capacitance. greater than 10nF.

also. Im testing al this at low voltage, so there isnt enough b emf.

if i know the right size caps i can buy the high voltage ones