Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!

thx1138v2

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #25, on May 23rd, 2015, 09:23 AM »Last edited on May 23rd, 2015, 09:34 AM
I didn't look at it in those terms but you're right. What caught my attention with the hydraulic ram pump was the similarity to the quenched spark gap. The quenching of the spark gap is similar to the sudden closing of the waste water valve which sends a higher pressure impulse back through the system to open the other valve which is actually what does the work of pumping the water uphill.

It's the momentum of the water that drives the hydraulic system. I have had a hard time grasping the idea that electricity has momentum but it must if there is a force related to the electrical field - EMF. And the back pulse would be BEMF, although we usually think of BEMF as being generated by the collapse of a coil's field.

The hydraulic system works on the principal that when that momentum is abruptly stopped, it must go somewhere so it creates the back pulse which is contained in the water pipes. I suppose we could consider that back pulse in the quenched spark gap as Tesla's longitudinal wave but it wouldn't be contained in the wire because at high frequencies the current is on the skin of the wire. In the hydraulic system, however, it is definitely a longitudinal wave.

It occurs to me we could use two spark gaps as the two valves in the hydraulic system with the gap in the second one set slightly wider than that of the first so the second gap doesn't fire on the initial pulse but does fire on the higher pressure (voltage) back pulse.

I haven't really thought this through but there are quite a few similarities to Tesla's work.

He noted in one of his lectures that it was the suddenness of the quenching that was important which would be analogous to the waste valve closing. If it doesn't close rapidly enough the momentum leaks away and the back pulse does not occur.

He also mentioned somewhere that what he was doing was analogous to hydrodynamics but I can't locate that at the moment.

He spent a lot of effort developing "circuit interrupters" which were replacements for spark gaps. He has several different patents for them and they all use mercury as the conducting medium between the gap terminals. Mercury has an interesting property in that a pool of mercury will only allow current to flow in one direction. So that could be used in the second interrupter to insure there isn't any backflow of the impulse back to the initiating circuit.
There are some interesting notes in the text of this patent:
electrical-circuit-controller

Also the higher pipe receiving the higher pressure is open ended so it pumps into a tank or pond for storage. The "extra coil" in Tesla's magnifier can be open ended, in which case it charges the atmosphere around it. Or it an be connected to a capacitor like the mushroom button shaped one on top of Wardenclyffe which could then be looked at as the storage tank or pond.

And there is this (underlines added):
"When the terminals of a high tension induction coil [Fig. 31] are connected to a condenser, and the condenser is disruptively discharging into a circuit, we may look upon the arc playing between the spark gap as being a source of alternating, or generally speaking, undulating currents, and then we have to deal with the familiar system of a generator of such currents, a circuit connected to it, and a condenser bridging the circuit. The condenser in such case is a veritable transformer, and since the frequency is excessive, almost any ratio in the strength of the currents in both branches may be obtained. In reality the analogy is not quite complete, for in the disruptive discharge we have most generally a fundamental instantaneous variation of comparatively low frequency, and a superimposed harmonic vibration, and the laws governing the flow of currents are not the same for both."

Condenser as transformer - that matches the hydraulic ram pump in that the pump can move water to a location higher than the source.

Fundamental instantaneous variation - the closing of the waste valve that creates the back pulse

Superimposed harmonic vibration - the wave form of the back pulse from the hydraulic ram pump is essentially the same as that of the quenched spark gap.

I'm not sure where this takes us. More thinking to do.

Edit: the reason I posted this here is that I was thinking Leedskalnin used a hydraulic ram pump to fill a column to float his blocks up and then moved them from whatever floatation device he might be using. I actually like the original post here better though. So move these posts as you see fit.

Matt Watts

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #26, on May 23rd, 2015, 02:20 PM »Last edited on May 23rd, 2015, 02:53 PM
THX,

What got me thinking was the work I'm doing on replicating and understanding the Ruslan device.

In one of Ruslan's videos he mentions the Tesla coil acting like a spring.  I took that and asked the question, "a spring to/for what?"

The answer that popped in my head after seeing your video was, "a spring to a valve."


So if we think about charge and how it seems associated with mass, the pieces start to fall together.  If you have a large conductor with current flowing through it (or by way of it), would you not have inertial charge?  This being, a considerable quantity of charge all moving in the same direction.  If by some mechanism you abruptly halt this flow of charge at a point in its flow, it would seem apparent the majority of the charge will not stop, but instead create a pressure, followed by a longitudinal pressure wave that will continue back through the conductor to its source.  Recall Tesla said this "stuff" (my term) behaves as though it is a non-compressible fluid.

When looking at the ram pump, if we can move charge from the earth, through a conductor with considerable mass, to a rapidly closing valve, where the charge that exits recycles back with the earth charge, I see the potential of a self-running device.  The analogy of the ram pump looks more and more to me like a very good principal of operation for the Ruslan device and likely many other devices.  Tuning an electrical ram pump should also follow the same principals as tuning a water ram pump, the only difference being speed.  With the ability to purchase modern high-speed semi-conductors and use them with precise timing control, all we need to ensure is that we don't use a conductor with a mass that is too small or too short.  A coil seems the most practical solution here, but not any coil.  Preferably a coil that has very low self inductance, i.e. thick insulation, with many feet of heavy gauge wire.  We are not after the generation of a magnetic field with this coil, per se, all we want is a way to compact a long length of wire with minimal resistance.  The length of this wire only needs to extend to a point where our switching can react fast enough; anything longer is a waste.

So we create a synthetic condition to provoke the flow of charge from earth, through the long massive conductor and out our valve, which then dumps back to earth.  This much is basically zero sum and only costs us the generation of high voltage to promote the flow of charge.  The next part is when we close the valve and all that moving charge now has nowhere else to go.  This is where we need to capture some of it while the pressure is high.  Once the pressure drops off, we re-open the valve and let the cycle repeat.

Gunther Rattay


Ris

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #28, on May 24th, 2015, 02:45 AM »Last edited on May 24th, 2015, 02:53 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 23rd, 2015, 02:20 PM
THX,

What got me thinking was the work I'm doing on replicating and understanding the Ruslan device.

In one of Ruslan's videos he mentions the Tesla coil acting like a spring.  I took that and asked the question, "a spring to/for what?"

The answer that popped in my head after seeing your video was, "a spring to a valve."


So if we think about charge and how it seems associated with mass, the pieces start to fall together.  If you have a large conductor with current flowing through it (or by way of it), would you not have inertial charge?  This being, a considerable quantity of charge all moving in the same direction.  If by some mechanism you abruptly halt this flow of charge at a point in its flow, it would seem apparent the majority of the charge will not stop, but instead create a pressure, followed by a longitudinal pressure wave that will continue back through the conductor to its source.  Recall Tesla said this "stuff" (my term) behaves as though it is a non-compressible fluid.

When looking at the ram pump, if we can move charge from the earth, through a conductor with considerable mass, to a rapidly closing valve, where the charge that exits recycles back with the earth charge, I see the potential of a self-running device.  The analogy of the ram pump looks more and more to me like a very good principal of operation for the Ruslan device and likely many other devices.  Tuning an electrical ram pump should also follow the same principals as tuning a water ram pump, the only difference being speed.  With the ability to purchase modern high-speed semi-conductors and use them with precise timing control, all we need to ensure is that we don't use a conductor with a mass that is too small or too short.  A coil seems the most practical solution here, but not any coil.  Preferably a coil that has very low self inductance, i.e. thick insulation, with many feet of heavy gauge wire.  We are not after the generation of a magnetic field with this coil, per se, all we want is a way to compact a long length of wire with minimal resistance.  The length of this wire only needs to extend to a point where our switching can react fast enough; anything longer is a waste.

So we create a synthetic condition to provoke the flow of charge from earth, through the long massive conductor and out our valve, which then dumps back to earth.  This much is basically zero sum and only costs us the generation of high voltage to promote the flow of charge.  The next part is when we close the valve and all that moving charge now has nowhere else to go.  This is where we need to capture some of it while the pressure is high.  Once the pressure drops off, we re-open the valve and let the cycle repeat.
Here's your spring     US patent 0514169       http://www.keelynet.com/tesla/B0008200.pdf    This is the reason of geographical position            scientists say, the ball of a certain mass can never return to the place from which is thrown I think on gravity drop.whether you can make the machine, which can  overcome this problem without the addition of energy or mass      I know that I can     in fact-I know it that you can do it ,you just forget it how

thx1138v2

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #29, on May 24th, 2015, 06:35 AM »Last edited on May 25th, 2015, 10:01 AM
Quote from Matt Watts on May 23rd, 2015, 02:20 PM
When looking at the ram pump, if we can move charge from the earth...
IMO the problem with extracting energy either from the ground or the atmosphere is energy density. Although there is a huge charge in either, the container, earth or atmosphere, is also huge so the density at any given point is not sufficient to produce work on the scales we need without also constructing something along the lines of Wardenclyffe. Remember also that Tesla had to scale Wardenclyffe down because he couldn't obtain funds to build the full scale system he envisioned. And it had a steam powered generator to create the impulses.

If we look at how nature produces lightning we see how huge the mechanism is - the thunderhead, the atmosphere around it and the surface over which it interacts..

In Tesla's radiant energy collector patent he even states that the energy must be accumulated and stored until a sufficient amount is available to operate the device. We obviously can't use it faster than it is accumulated and the local density is small. I've confirmed this by building a radiant energy receiver and don't see any way to produce a continuous flow greater than that needed to light a few LEDs without building a large device. From my experiments I roughly calculated the area need to power a typical modern single family home and came up with around 20 acres of elevated, insulated plate. That would be at ~500 ft above sea level. It would be smaller at, say, 7000 feet but still very large.

The same energy density problem arises with trying to couple to the earth's magnetic field.

Ris

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #30, on May 24th, 2015, 10:12 AM »
 thx whether you can tell me how much is attractive force of 20000 volts and how many electrons we can collect.

thx1138v2

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #31, on May 25th, 2015, 06:42 AM »
Quote from Ris on May 24th, 2015, 10:12 AM
thx whether you can tell me how much is attractive force of 20000 volts and how many electrons we can collect.
Your questions are irrelevant without context. The answers can be anything, nothing, or something.

"… we must remember that we have no evidence of electricity, nor can we hope to get it, unless gross matter is present." - Nikola Tesla

"There is no energy in matter other than that received from the environment." - Nikola Tesla

Ris

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #32, on May 25th, 2015, 06:58 AM »
yes my question is difficult to explain ,too many things I have to explain additionally---In my opinion electricity is only fluid that helps us in the transmission of mechanical energy-problem in the electrical system is that we rarely not use energy recovery.The other thing, if you think about it no matter how complicated machine man makes-It will always  exist just a reasonable explanation that anyone can understand.look at this ,simpler cant be               https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZMRTnUE7UM      http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/

thx1138v2

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #33, on May 25th, 2015, 09:58 AM »Last edited on May 25th, 2015, 10:05 AM
Quote from Gunther Rattay on May 23rd, 2015, 10:58 PM
That´s amazing! I´m stunned ...
I was quite surprised myself. I was looking for a way to move water uphill to use the water to power a gravity driven device. Of course, the problem is that you have to have a source of flowing water and you only capture about 20% of that water. So there's no way I see to self loop it. And if you have a source of flowing water it could simply drive a waterwheel to drive a generator.

Some hydraulic ram devices were patented in the late 1700's and early 1800's but it may have been around for thousands of years.

Chris Dunn makes a case that the Great Pyramid in Egypt on the Giza plain used such a device. His idea is that there was a lot of work put into constructing the pyramid and since there have never been any mummies found in the pyramids to justify the archeologists' claims that they are tombs, that the pyramid itself is a machine that used water from the Nile river. Exactly what the ultimate purpose of the machine was isn't exactly clear but his analysis is convincing. You can find an excellent writeup here:
Great Pyramid as a machine

I did a quick look around with Goggle maps satellite imagery of some of the Asian and Central American pyramids and they too are located near water sources. One might presume that the water was necessary to support the large workforces necessary to build the pyramids, but is there more to it than that?

It's been said that there was at one time a metal cap on the Great Pyramid of Egypt. If we consider that an electrical terminal and if we tie it in with the video that started this thread about how Ed Leedskalnin built Coral Castle it raises some interesting possibilities. Leedskalnin himself said that he used the same method used to build the pyramids, if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately, however interesting all of this is, I don't see how to make use of it. Maybe I'm blinded by preconceptions.

I do have a rural property that has limestone underneath and an aquifer under the limestone. Unfortunately the limestone is ~790 feet below the surface. It is about 100 feet thick. Then there is some shale and the water starts at 960 feet and is under enough pressure to raise it to 280 feet from the surface in my steel casing that runs to 930 feet. But I still have to pump it from the 280 foot level. Excellent water though - limestone filtered.

AcidByte

Re: Ed Leedskalnin.. Possible Solved. Warning! may not like the answer!
« Reply #34, on May 28th, 2016, 12:22 AM »
well i must say some strange effects happen to metals when you place them in the center of a triangle made of 3 tesla coils. (standing up vertically)
stone will have a different frequency ofcourse but i think will act the same.
this is something nikola tesla showed us long time ago when he tuned into the frequency of the building.
you can get metals to fly/shatter/turn into dust by modulating frequency's and hitting the objects resonant frequency. remember ring the bell.

also one posible tripod thing could have been in the "box"
it did only have to be a resonant coil to the system he had made.
if you have a oscillation that goes to some output(like a battery in a bedini motor)
you did only have to place a resonant inductor in series with 1 of the wires (resonant to the coil that is giving the oscillation).
and you would get the same amount of energy that was going to the output at this coil.
while still having about the same output as before.
this you can multiply as many as you want. (it's somewhat like tesla's one wire system. and yes you dont have to have a return wire just the oscillation to a open coil is enough).
so what kind of voltage could have been on that wire?
that wire was suspended in mid air.
could it have been high voltage?
i dont know it could be.
ed talked about a coil enclosed in metal just as how sparkcoils are these days.
when you swing a magnet past the bottom of a sparkcoil.
you get some electricity. (not much because most magnets dont have such long field to magnetize the full core)
but edward used super poles.
bedini showed something about super norths remember?
they do fill the full core :)
could his highvoltage coil have been sitting in the pipe where his super poles swinged by REAL close?
i do know is that this series resonant coil duplicates the avaible energy.
i have done some tests with this and had some great results.
doing stuff while still charging a battery with the same amount of energy.
and not drawing more from the run side.

what im trying to say is i dont know if the video is correct about what ed did.
and i guess we would never know unless we build something working.

it maybe is a coincidence that tesla and leedskalnin both were pretty interrested about the pyramides? i dont think so :)