GPS has mentioned that you should start at a low voltage and slowly work your way up.  I'm assuming some other adjustments are also happening during that time.  Sounds to me like he is adjusting for what Nav is describing.  This is what the PLL would be able to handle on it's own.

Quote from nav on January 5th, 2015, 11:42 AM

Voltage does not effect impedance but the reactive effect of voltage on the dielectric layer does.
Water is the dielectric layer, as you change water into gas, the ability of the water to act at one particular dielectric property changes because it is being replaced by gas all the time.
The more gas you produce between the plates of the capacitor the less water there is. Therefore the impedance at beginning of water production is different to when the cell is at full swing.
The cell is a reactive load.

Yes I can see the dielectric will change as gas is produced, that was always a known condition, but impedance is an AC thing and since we are suppose to be building up a DC voltage across the cell, then the cell doesn't have impedance, but resistance. I know impedance and resistance use the same value, ohms. At this point the cell is seen as a resistor. The impedance is in the chokes when at resonance, hence the amp restriction part of the circuit.

So with those thoughts, is the chokes the load where impedance should be matched to? The cell if charging with DC voltage, doesn't have impedance per say.
Don

Quote from firepinto on January 5th, 2015, 12:00 PM

GPS has mentioned that you should start at a low voltage and slowly work your way up.  I'm assuming some other adjustments are also happening during that time.  Sounds to me like he is adjusting for what Nav is describing.  This is what the PLL would be able to handle on it's own.

From what I've seen of Stan's unit in operation, it scans and locks onto resonance in a couple of seconds. The PLL Stan uses just locks onto LC resonance in the coils. Again, this whole circuit may not have even worked from what Steve told me, some of their efforts didn't work. He wouldn't acknowledge that the cell even worked. By the photo's I took, you can clearly see that it was used.
Don

Quote from Dynodon on January 5th, 2015, 12:01 PM

Yes I can see the dielectric will change as gas is produced, that was always a known condition, but impedance is an AC thing and since we are suppose to be building up a DC voltage across the cell, then the cell doesn't have impedance, but resistance. I know impedance and resistance use the same value, ohms. At this point the cell is seen as a resistor. The impedance is in the chokes when at resonance, hence the amp restriction part of the circuit.

So with those thoughts, is the chokes the load where impedance should be matched to? The cell if charging with DC voltage, doesn't have impedance per say.
Don

Look at one of Stan's schematics below.
There is at switch at the bottom, as each switch is activated, it activates the gate of an SCR switch and the voltage goes up in one quarter increments. This is what GPS is doing. As you go up in voltage the more reactance there is on the cell, the job of the pll is to consider the reactance on the primary as you go up in voltage. This is what Stan scans for. The cell reacts to higher voltage and the resonant frequency changes slightly but you have to impedance match the change in frequency. This is why you deploy C'mos chips and other chips to adjust the pulse width and the gate on the 555. When something is more reactive with higher voltage, if you don't chase the reactance and tune the system to follow the reactance, it will go out of tune.

Think of it like this: You have a primary and a secondary and a load. The load is a light bulb. You set the impedance of the network to match the rate at which the light bulb can spend energy. Now the light bulb has a little tick terd kid messing about with a variable power switch, moving it up and down and switching it off and on again and then up, down, up, down and driving you insane. The rate at which the primary and secondary react to this maniac kid is a pll circuit. Every time he makes a change, you follow him ready for his next move. If you don't, your tuned circuit will be kicked six ways from Sunday.

For some reason, I have not seen that patent. I do see that it is a little newer than some of the others. This one is just about the same as the 8XA. The 8XA uses a variac instead of a multi tap transformer. Your still locked in at 120 hz. Also, once the SCR is turned on with the battery voltage at the sector switch at the bottom, the SCR never turns off. Only the opto switches the signals off to the VIC coil. The selector only changes the voltage level.
Don

The SCR switches are set so only the gate can activate them but like most SCR's, they switch off when the source voltage is zero at the end of a pulse. So if you make the switch amateur a rotary similar to Tesla's rotary switches you can create automated step charging, then at each step there is time for the pll to compensate for reactance at the load. This is much easier on C'mos logic gates because you can use defined logic gates to tune the frequency of the primary on the next step to match resonance then the impedance can be matched. So it becomes a four step logic gate rather than constant probing with a scanner. It allows you to get in the ball park and stay in it at each step.

Quote from Dynodon on January 5th, 2015, 11:31 AM

...
 I don't know if voltage effects the impedance. If it does, than it makes the tuning part almost impossible to get to. Impedance is a byproduct of frequency, it changes with frequency and reaches peak at resonance. How voltage can change the impedance, I have not see that described before of even seen a formula to show that type of change. Impedance after all is the resistance to AC voltage. So when we are testing, does changing the applied voltage effect the impedance? I would need to see that somewhere in text to agree with that comment.

With that being said, then it would be almost impossible to tune a cell manually. I doubt that Ronnie is using PLL for tuning his set up. He claims he has his working, and I think it is tuned by hand.
Don

Of course the bubbles depend on the voltage applied. and the size and the number of bubbles change the water surface area between the electrodes. so there is a change in capacitance. The same for resistance.


Following Ronnie´s chat I think we can´t assume that Ronnie has a running configuration with adequate production. AFAIK he did not mention to have a running system having all parts solved of that technology.

If I´m wrong Ronnie will tell.

(A) providing a capacitor, in which the water is included as a dielectric liquid between capacitor plates, in a resonant charging choke circuit that includes an inductance in series with the capacitor;

(B) subjecting the capacitor to a pulsating, >>>>>>>>>>>unipolar electric voltage <<<<<<<<<field in which the polarity does not pass beyond an arbitrary ground, whereby the water molecules within the capacitor are subjected to a charge of the same polarity and the water molecules are distended by their subjection to electrical polar forces;




use an external metal plate suspended from a thread.. in series.


all u need to do is drop a secondary coil into the water, feed it with a single pulse of 50 k volts. then operate the cell as normal..

the added coil with slow pulse will get the water to the elongated molecular state.

 should read Telsla Patent also.. O:-)

Nav
Is the impedance of bifilar coils dependant from frequency at which we pulse them?
thank
andy
No, look at my signature.

Nav
I dont understand how we match impedance of the cell change with voltage and gas being produced in beetwen the plates , if the  impedance of bifilar coils is not dependant from frequency at which we pulse them?
Thank for your help.
andy

Quote from andy on January 6th, 2015, 01:03 AM

Nav
Is the impedance of bifilar coils dependant from frequency at which we pulse them?
thank
andy
No, look at my signature.

Nav
I dont understand how we match impedance of the cell change with voltage and gas being produced in beetwen the plates , if the  impedance of bifilar coils is not dependant from frequency at which we pulse them?
Thank for your help.
andy

Most of the magic happens in Stan's VIC when the primary is switched off. The bifilar coil is self resonant. Self resonant coils can form pulse forming networks in several ways. They can be fed with their resonant frequency so they form an LC network with a capacitor and will carry on resonating even after the primary is switched off, they can be fed with a frequency that is a quarter wave, an half wave, a 5/8ths wave or a 3/4 wave of their resonant frequency and will operate at their own resonant frequency when that harmonic source is removed. Sometimes they will operate when a sub-harmonic frequency stimulates them such as a 32nd or a 48th. But these harmonics have to fit into the phasing system perfectly. In other words, when a quarter wave pulse frequency at the primary is supplied, it is a quarter wave that fits into the phase of the full wave perfectly with all the peaks and nodes in the correct places.
You are asking me what triggers a self resonant coil into operation when the primary frequency is not related to the resonant frequency. Well, if you present a self resonant coil with favorable conditions after the primary is switched off it can and will continue to resonate at its own comfortable pace. But those conditions have got to be favorable, i.e the network in which it lies is the same impedance and any switching operations do not present higher or lower impedance. Look up LC networks and look up LC networks with resistors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit

Nav
Thank for ansver.
But i asked about this thing. You said that water capacitor is reactive load, its impedance change with applied voltage and when gas start produced. How we can match impedance of bifilar coil to this changing cell impedance?  This must be matched. You said it is done electronically .
Is this done by PLL circuit, by change of frequency applied to primary coil?
I sorry for my english.
thank Nav.
andy

Quote from andy on January 6th, 2015, 09:23 AM

Nav
Thank for ansver.
But i asked about this thing. You said that water capacitor is reactive load, its impedance change with applied voltage and when gas start produced. How we can match impedance of bifilar coil to this changing cell impedance?  This must be matched. You said it is done electronically .
Is this done by PLL circuit, by change of frequency applied to primary coil?
I sorry for my english.
thank Nav.
andy

I get ya.
The self resonance of the network which is the bifilar coil and the cell are reactive to applied voltage but the distributed capacitance and distributed inductance in the VIC are still equal even though the voltage went up. The point at which the network becomes self resonant changes with applied voltage but sets itself and you cannot touch it. What you can do is this: If your primary is pulsing this moving target you need to be pulsing it in the most efficient way of doing so. The pulse pickup coil monitors the VIC core for magnetic field values, when the primary is in phase with the resonant network and most efficient a 'working condition' is logged in a C'mos logic gate. The pickup coil and the C'mos probe the core by controlling the primary pulses to find a suitable 'working condition', when they have probed in a thousandth of a second they phase lock the 'working condition' so that the primary is back in phase with the resonant network. This is the pickup coil, C'mos logic gate and pll all working together to chase resonance. They also phase the gate period by knowing when the self resonance is taking place because there is no point in pulsing a system that is locked down anyway because the core is shut during the gate. The gate length is determined by the length of a damped LC resonant network. When the core is open for business, it starts again with the C'mos asking the core logic questions.

Nav
You answer my question fully. I admire your knowledge. Many thanks for sharing your understanding of Stan Meyer tech.
All the best for your work.
andy

Quote from Gunther Rattay on January 5th, 2015, 06:19 PM

Of course the bubbles depend on the voltage applied. and the size and the number of bubbles change the water surface area between the electrodes. so there is a change in capacitance. The same for resistance.

Quote from Gunther Rattay via Skype

[06.01.2015 18:00:55] Edward Mitchell Jr: Hi Gunther,
Just read your comment and it is a bit incorrect as it is the volume of water that decreases as the resonant cavities produce more gas. So basically it is switching in percentages of volumes with two different mediums. One medium has a high dielectric value (water) and the other a low dielectric value (gases). As the percentage of gases to water ratio increases for gases so does the resistance and capacitance goes down as a result since the gases will have dielectric value close to one.  I think that is worded a bit better as the area of the plates are fixed.
[06.01.2015 18:02:55] Edward Mitchell Jr: At some point we will hit a point of diminishing returns as the water can't fill the void fast enough, thus will need to be pumped in, IE, Meyer's injectors.
[01:11:27] Gunther Rattay: i think the resistance goes up and the capacitance goes down
[01:13:40] Edward Mitchell Jr: Yes, that is what I stated, but it is the volume that is changing not the area as area is two dimensional.
[01:14:31] Gunther Rattay: you are correct.