Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on November 15th, 2014, 04:52 PM

The more I Study Water the more it behaves like a Semiconducor!

So instead of treating it like a dielectric. I will start to treat it like a Semicondutor.

Here is the plan...

#1 how can one change the characterisitics in a semicoductor? 
in the industry this process is called "Doping"

#2 So I will Start "Doping" Water.

Becouse of internal parrallel path and "Ez Zone" there exist leakage that the capacitor does not maintiane charge for longer periods.
by doping the dielectric we can extend the charge capacty of water...

The question is what material can we add  to the water that does not involve chemical reaction?

Here is the answer and run with it yes fly:

Option number #1   Silica  Dioxide Carefull not to breath.
Option number #2   Crushed Quartz crystal
Option number #3   Crushed Glass, fine powder.

What do they have in common? 
[{(sand...Silicone)  Same material used in semicondutors!}]
Yes
They all have a resistive carachteristic to current and do not bond chemicaly to the water.

Putting silica in water results in silicic acid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicic_acid
"Silicic acid is the general name for a family of chemical compounds containing the element silicon attached to oxide and hydroxyl groups."

So the moment you put current to the water and start generating hydroxyl ions (OH-), you'll be generating silicic acid, which will carry the current, destroying your hopes of high voltage, low current dissociation.

Pure water acts as a dielectric because the molecules are highly polar. In fact, the water molecule is so polar that it'll rotate in an electric field to align itself with that electric field. Use that fact to align the water molecules properly to make dissociating them easier, then hit them with some other form of energy (x-rays would be the most efficient, given the resonant frequency of the water molecule is in the hard x-ray range) at such an angle that you have a wider cross-section of energy absorption (higher barn).

You can hit it with sub-harmonic frequencies, but between each "pulse" of that sub-harmonic, the proton will 'spin down' a bit... so the lower the sub-harmonic frequency you use, the harder it is to keep the proton 'spun up' to the point that it deprotonates. X-ray frequency will spin it up so quickly that it'll deprotonate immediately, with no spin-down.

Water Radiolysis - Dissociating Water with Radio Waves
"Guenther and Holzapfel irradiated water with X-rays in contact with a large free volume in a vacuum system and found large continuing yields of hydrogen gas."

How to generate the x-rays? Well, you can "amplify" the light from an LED until it's in the x-ray range:
Miniaturized high-speed modulated x-ray source
"A miniaturized high-speed modulated X-ray source (MXS) device and a method for rapidly and arbitrarily varying with time the output X-ray photon intensities and energies."

That's an x-ray source that essentially is an electron "amplifier", taking the light from an LED and adding energy to it until it's in the x-ray range. The good thing about this device is you can tune its wavelength from 120 eV (10.332 nm) to 120 KeV (0.010332 nm).

From my E-F posts, reverse engineering the resonant frequency of water:
======================================
http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/19877-molecular-distances-corresponding-frequencies.html

According to:
Hydrogen Bonding And Orbital Models
In ambient atmosphere the O—O in the water dimer is 2.985 angstrom (calculated by JMW); the short O—H bond is 0.948 angstrom and the long bond is 2.037 angstrom.

That's .2985 nm, .0948 nm and .2037 nm.

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR
2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717351890034363270 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

2.985 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.0043e+18 Hz or 1.0043298425460636160 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1623677004219407360 ExaHertz. X-ray range.
======================================

Keep in mind that you'll want to target the short O-H bond, since the long O-H bond is so close in frequency to the inter-molecule O--O dimer bond that hitting it without stressing the dimer bond is near impossible. And if you stress that dimer bond, you also make it harder to cleave the O-H bond.

Also keep in mind that as you stress the short O-H bond, you'll need to 'blue-shift' your frequency (increase the frequency) to account for the change in O-H bond length as you stress it. I think that's why Meyer's waveform stepped up like it did.

Quote from Cycle on March 30th, 2015, 05:32 PM

Putting silica in water results in silicic acid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicic_acid
"Silicic acid is the general name for a family of chemical compounds containing the element silicon attached to oxide and hydroxyl groups."

So the moment you put current to the water and start generating hydroxyl ions (OH-), you'll be generating silicic acid, which will carry the current, destroying your hopes of high voltage, low current dissociation.

Pure water acts as a dielectric because the molecules are highly polar. In fact, the water molecule is so polar that it'll rotate in an electric field to align itself with that electric field. Use that fact to align the water molecules properly to make dissociating them easier, then hit them with some other form of energy (x-rays would be the most efficient, given the resonant frequency of the water molecule is in the hard x-ray range) at such an angle that you have a wider cross-section of energy absorption (higher barn).

You can hit it with sub-harmonic frequencies, but between each "pulse" of that sub-harmonic, the proton will 'spin down' a bit... so the lower the sub-harmonic frequency you use, the harder it is to keep the proton 'spun up' to the point that it deprotonates. X-ray frequency will spin it up so quickly that it'll deprotonate immediately, with no spin-down.

Water Radiolysis - Dissociating Water with Radio Waves
"Guenther and Holzapfel irradiated water with X-rays in contact with a large free volume in a vacuum system and found large continuing yields of hydrogen gas."

How to generate the x-rays? Well, you can "amplify" the light from an LED until it's in the x-ray range:
Miniaturized high-speed modulated x-ray source
"A miniaturized high-speed modulated X-ray source (MXS) device and a method for rapidly and arbitrarily varying with time the output X-ray photon intensities and energies."

That's an x-ray source that essentially is an electron "amplifier", taking the light from an LED and adding energy to it until it's in the x-ray range. The good thing about this device is you can tune its wavelength from 120 eV (10.332 nm) to 120 KeV (0.010332 nm).

From my E-F posts, reverse engineering the resonant frequency of water:
======================================
http://www.energeticforum.com/water-fuel/19877-molecular-distances-corresponding-frequencies.html

According to:
Hydrogen Bonding And Orbital Models
In ambient atmosphere the O—O in the water dimer is 2.985 angstrom (calculated by JMW); the short O—H bond is 0.948 angstrom and the long bond is 2.037 angstrom.

That's .2985 nm, .0948 nm and .2037 nm.

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR
2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717351890034363270 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

2.985 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.0043e+18 Hz or 1.0043298425460636160 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1623677004219407360 ExaHertz. X-ray range.
======================================

Keep in mind that you'll want to target the short O-H bond, since the long O-H bond is so close in frequency to the inter-molecule O--O dimer bond that hitting it without stressing the dimer bond is near impossible. And if you stress that dimer bond, you also make it harder to cleave the O-H bond.

Also keep in mind that as you stress the short O-H bond, you'll need to 'blue-shift' your frequency (increase the frequency) to account for the change in O-H bond length as you stress it. I think that's why Meyer's waveform stepped up like it did.

Thanks for your comments.

Silica dioxide was a sugestion to increase resistance altough Silica acid is whats converts to Silica dioxide.... not the other way around.. according to same wiki source...
although if it did , then would the quartz crystall be affected same way?  what about the glass?

ok so you mentioned that pure water acts like a dielectric..(i used to think this way)

Yes it "acts like a dielectric" then it decides its no longer going to "resist" and starts to conduct....
this is problem we are always runing into...
ive purchaced multiple diff brands of pure distilled water..countless days, cheking notes and experimenting .... and always  get same results.

water has amazing ability to covert voltage...into current...

This is my argument with water acting more like a semiconductor rather than a dielectric...
I dont agree with the interpretations that water is the ultimate dielectric.

we know that in the industry Distilled water is considered  a fairly ok dielectric. this is why its not used  in capacitors.
becouse it does not hold the charge for long periods.......

if the water did hold a charge for long periods of time this would mean that the resistiance does not  change......
that would be perfect... but not the case. resistance is constantly changning.  constantly .......

so the water stores charge like a capaciter and additionally reacts like a non-linear resistor.
observing the voltage/current/time dependency gives answers to the question how water interacts with a transformer coil configuration pulsed system.

 

Quote from Gunther Rattay on April 1st, 2015, 12:49 AM

so the water stores charge like a capaciter and additionally reacts like a non-linear resistor.
observing the voltage/current/time dependency gives answers to the question how water interacts with a transformer coil configuration pulsed system.

yes..

#1 so resistance is present...

#2 upon application of power  voltage starts to rise with current...

#3 Then resistance drops  and current rises as voltage falls.


Here are my two cents on this...
I agree with most that resonance is important.. but i dont tink thats what we are realy after... to me resonance makes what we are
looking for operate at  max efficiency..
Is it running at max efficieny? then resonance probably has something to do with it.

So what are we realy after?

there are two objectives..

#1 Limit Current...

#2 charge capacitor with step charge phenomenon....

ok so number one is managable to a degreee. see link bellow on inductive network... works great the more inductance the
less current...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwEUWcA8dJI#ws

here is problem with number two..

A Capacitor canot charge any higher than applyied voltage!

and we are dealing with the most complicated capacitor setup possible in the world.
that wont hold the charge applied.....will lose its resistance...and wont care if you apply 12volts or 6,000volts
it will drop it back to 1.5volts...and watever charge it does maintane will convert to current and consume internaly
producing bubbles.

All of that and we havent even raised the voltage beyond applyied secondary!
that according to stan meyers should go beyond applyied voltage .. with this "step charge phenomenon"


This is my second thought on this.... before we can acheive "Step charge Phenomenon"
we first have to maintaine a managable amount of time interval of applyied  charge

Before the voltage drops...we need to switch off the circuit!

Maybe once we can manage that, then ..we could try and fiqure out the true "Step charge Phenomenon" " were voltage climbs to Infinity!"    At witch point water resistance also has to rise to infinity!

Okay, let me ask this...

Has anyone connected a fairly large high voltage capacitor to the coil, creating a tank circuit, then with a diode in series, connect the WFC across the capacitor?  The idea here is to have your tuned resonant circuit and piggy-back the water cell (with diode) on to the capacitor.  If your tuned circuit is good enough (high Q), voltages should go way up and the cell shouldn't be able to knock it down much, it's basically just along for the ride.

Now, if you do simulations of this, you should see some very high amperages in the tank circuit.  Whether these high amperages cross over to the WFC or not, I can only speculate.  If the voltage and amperage are 90 degrees out of phase, it really doesn't matter how much amperage is there, any resistance the WFC has, cannot have an effect on the tank circuit.  It's somewhat a game of proportions.  Let's say the WFC has a calculated capacitance of 10nF and our tank capacitor is 1uF (100 times larger).  So we find a suitable inductor to resonant with that drops the 1st harmonic frequency around 25kHz.  What can we expect this to do?  Has anyone tried it?

Here is an idea...

Have you tried freezing your water into ice?

method is as follows. .

#1 ground one of the plates... disconect the anode. 

#2 freeze the water.
# 3  disconect earth ground and apply charge potential using complete circuit.


first step will allow alignment of molecule without current consumption.
second step will freeze the water molecule pre aligned in respective polarity.
third step....well molecule will not be able to turn or move due to frozen water structure
the only movable particle will be the electron.

in normal water bath the molecules move all over the place creating all sorts of ions.
in frozen water bath the molecules are stuck!  but the electrons are free.

this method will surely "limit current"..........  no ions no current; no standard electrolysis.



Ok... here is problem number one...

obviosly ther will be no particle "bombartment or impact" aiding with kinetic energy to weaken the molecule.

here is problem number two..

ahhh.... I find it difficult the molecule will be able to "elongate"

so .
for this to work an external force will have to be greater than the solidified crystal matrix that was formed.
said force can be a high voltage potential...

if the static lines can overcome the shielding effect of the bond geometry....
then im assuming the molecule will split... and stay stuck within the bond or spontaneously expand  into gas bypassing the liquid state.

V = √W × Ω  Higher voltage requires Higher resistance!


The statement above is very true...and in this post that I started some time ago many toughts
have gone into it..

honestly was expecting to be  challenged on this argument... that is of resistance having to rise!

but ive come to a realization concerning the formula.....


voltage is independant of resistance! 
you dont need resistance to have voltage...

but you do need voltage to measure resistance!

yes the "formula" is a tool of measurement..
and like all tools there is always a right tool for the job.
onfurtunatly this formula is not the right tool for the job.

what is the job?






 

a fly back transformer does not rely on winding ratio , it stores energy in air gap and transfers from primary to secondary . 2 coils isolated from each other , also called a swinging choke .

Is the following statements true or false?

#1 voltage is independant of resistance! 
#2 you dont need resistance to have voltage...

#3 but you do need voltage to measure resistance.

Are we talking just in general or specific cases of DC or high frequency RF through a transmission line?

When I hear the term resistance, I typically refer to the DC case and the term impedance to the AC one.  Regardless, I think there is a tight relationship there which forces us to better understand what DC actually is.

In the case of the infinite line below, there is no actual resistor components, but the circuit behaves as though there is.

Resistance is for passive components .     with non linear resistance , negative resistance , voltage and current are differentials .
with water its hard to tie it down because water is self ionizing .  filling it with electrolyte brings it more into line with ohms law but with straight water its behaving non linear , being self ionizing its behaving more like an 'active' component

Quote from massive on September 27th, 2015, 12:20 AM

Resistance is for passive components .     with non linear resistance , negative resistance , voltage and current are differentials .
with water its hard to tie it down because water is self ionizing .  filling it with electrolyte brings it more into line with ohms law but with straight water its behaving non linear , being self ionizing its behaving more like an 'active' component

Yes agreed...

that is problem we are facing... water doing what it wants...
eating up the voltage converting it to amps...

According to the formula  V = √W × Ω      if we apply  say 1000volts... the Resistance should rise! if we manage to restrict amps..

So how is the  resistance increased in water?   

that has been the question ive been pursuing in this post...

But lately  ive come to the realization that this formula may not apply in all cases....
we may not need the resistance to rise at all... it may just be that voltage does not need resistance in the conversion to current.

example... all closed circuits have a source of power....in which in its path always returns to source...

This is not the case with static electricity...........
lightning does not return force back to source!    //   rather its an interchange of charge.....
But this is not the case with conventional closed loop circuits!

This is what ive been thinking.....
It could be that Stan Meyers was using the VIC/EEC as a(Pulsed DC to Static Generator converter).

This makes lots more sense to me because upon "switch off " or "gate time"  of the  VIC the EEC would take over and
Attract charge in water thereby reducing amounts of ions in it...possibly allowing voltage to accumulate rather than
allowing ion charge to avalanche..

This is a hybrid circuit........a circuit that goes from current flow to Static charge!

Quote from massive on September 27th, 2015, 12:20 AM

Resistance is for passive components .     with non linear resistance , negative resistance , voltage and current are differentials .
with water its hard to tie it down because water is self ionizing .  filling it with electrolyte brings it more into line with ohms law but with straight water its behaving non linear , being self ionizing its behaving more like an 'active' component

Good discussion, massive!

Now add in to the non linear behaviour of water those special dynamics taking place in a bifilar wound transformer coil stack enabling the core material to build cooper pairs of electrons as Bill Alek describes here http://auroratek.us/SCIENCE.html.

Imagine what dynamics take place in such a non-trivial system. So we need lots of measurements of single parts of the system before a one-ín-all application can work properly:

voltage and current, phase shift measurements in several parts of the system, maybe magnetic flux measurements etc.

who thinks that this one can be solved with backyard stuff?

If the idea of cooper pairs is correct the transformer itself is no longer a closed system because accessing extra energy from a universal field by quantum level tunneling effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXno_7xXSZs


william alek demonstrates his bifilar transformer, it gets cold at shortcut condition and delivers 160% efficiency

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddj85px00lM

Stan Meyer extremely understated the complexity of his system and that way he cheated most of us. Maybe that´s the reason why most activities in that field have failed or ended so far ... :hedidit:

Quote from Matt Watts on September 26th, 2015, 05:31 PM

Are we talking just in general or specific cases of DC or high frequency RF through a transmission line?

When I hear the term resistance, I typically refer to the DC case and the term impedance to the AC one.  Regardless, I think there is a tight relationship there which forces us to better understand what DC actually is.

In the case of the infinite line below, there is no actual resistor components, but the circuit behaves as though there is.

Matt,

this one is the exact configuration Stan Meyer has set up:



Inserting an AC pulsing source (transformer secondary) thru his diode replacing the battery and taking into account that all those capacitors are stray capacitances of the upper and lower path chokes and taking into account that destilled water up to 100 µs has no resistive component we see that the system itself protects from current flow at correct pulse length and resonance.
... of course there is also mutual inductance in the system so that we have serial and parallel LC components at oscillation enabling complex AC dynamics behind the diode.

Quote from Matt Watts on April 1st, 2015, 08:36 PM

Okay, let me ask this...

Has anyone connected a fairly large high voltage capacitor to the coil, creating a tank circuit, then with a diode in series, connect the WFC across the capacitor?  The idea here is to have your tuned resonant circuit and piggy-back the water cell (with diode) on to the capacitor.  If your tuned circuit is good enough (high Q), voltages should go way up and the cell shouldn't be able to knock it down much, it's basically just along for the ride.

Now, if you do simulations of this, you should see some very high amperages in the tank circuit.  Whether these high amperages cross over to the WFC or not, I can only speculate.  If the voltage and amperage are 90 degrees out of phase, it really doesn't matter how much amperage is there, any resistance the WFC has, cannot have an effect on the tank circuit.  It's somewhat a game of proportions.  Let's say the WFC has a calculated capacitance of 10nF and our tank capacitor is 1uF (100 times larger).  So we find a suitable inductor to resonant with that drops the 1st harmonic frequency around 25kHz.  What can we expect this to do?  Has anyone tried it?

tbd,

should work similar by paralleling a large hv capacitor to the cell ...
but in both cases the pulsing is a forced oscillation on the wfc while the cell itself taking part in the oscillation dynamics can add in it´s specific harmonic modes.

Quote from Gunther Rattay on September 27th, 2015, 06:30 AM

should work similar by paralleling a large hv capacitor to the cell ...
but in both cases the pulsing is a forced oscillation on the wfc while the cell itself taking part in the oscillation dynamics can add in it´s specific harmonic modes.

This coupled with an electrostatic effect (Heuristicobfuscation mentions) from the surrounding environment appears to be the exact same principal utilized in the Ruslan/Akula device (and probably others).


Let me just pose a simple observation made from some RV batteries...

Recently I had to replace several sets of batteries used in RVs.  Reason?  The end cells nearest the negative terminals had run dry of water, permanently damaging the batteries.  I ask myself, so why are these particular cells charging at a rate faster than the other cells depleting the water?  It can't be a simple matter of Ohms Law here since all the cells in the battery are receiving the same identical charging current.  The only answer I can come up with is the grounded body of the RV is somehow providing additional electrostatic charge to this directly connected end cell.  Now wouldn't it be nice to figure out exactly how this is happening and optimize this process on demand...

personally I dont like dealing with std transformer construction . Im into FBT , HV destruction hobby stuff .  with FBT primary energy is stored in the ferrite , the sec is invisible so theres no opposition . pri current stops sudden then sec diode is fwd bias and stored energy is released .
I plain dont like silicon steel etc cores or function .
non conductive cores rule!


"If the idea of cooper pairs is correct the transformer itself is no longer a closed system because accessing extra energy from a universal field by quantum level tunneling effect"

^^^^^ Tunnel diodes deal in negative resistance ,crazy as it sounds this 'Area' of electronics produces power , this Aurora tek is a cleaver dude . some guys can figure stuff out .

atm Im looking into negative resistance , Ive only ever reached for components to build circuits but recently my interest has been in NR

I see it as unreasonable to demand more energy out of a circuit , theres has to be a way in for energy from outside .
also using the primary power source can only result in depletion

as for voltage across water , the only example we have in nature is lightning , Ive been looking into that for years .
there was the "chemical explosion" theory of the 1800s .
theory being the HV field ionized water molecules , stripped electrons added to neg charge , ionized air created channel , HV breakdown of air , arc begins .....boom!   , electrons  shoot to earth.

modern theory isnt too far off the same thing except water self ionizing and H2 isnt mentioned .  NOR do they mention that ozone is highly explosive  .... which just adds to the "chemical explosion" theory.

anyway theres a water molecule suspended in mid air with no ground contact / isolated , self ionizing .  does voltage rise across the molecule ? idk
I only assume if it is balanced then it has equal charge

another thing..... the return lightning strike from ground to cloud in the opposite direction . is it a flow of electrons?
is it positive charges

I am also interested in GROUND as an electron source . Stubblefield did amazing things even though I was not there to witness any of it , the concept sounds reasonable .(also Hermann Plausons work)

paralleling is another thing Ive stuffed around with , theoretically a parallel R should lower the R of water ..... yea nup!  :0) 
^^^ its the non linear + linear Resistance thing again

Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on July 28th, 2015, 07:29 PM

Here is an idea...

Have you tried freezing your water into ice?

method is as follows. .

#1 ground one of the plates... disconect the anode. 

#2 freeze the water.
# 3  disconect earth ground and apply charge potential using complete circuit.


first step will allow alignment of molecule without current consumption.
second step will freeze the water molecule pre aligned in respective polarity.
third step....well molecule will not be able to turn or move due to frozen water structure
the only movable particle will be the electron.

in normal water bath the molecules move all over the place creating all sorts of ions.
in frozen water bath the molecules are stuck!  but the electrons are free.

this method will surely "limit current"..........  no ions no current; no standard electrolysis.



Ok... here is problem number one...

obviosly ther will be no particle "bombartment or impact" aiding with kinetic energy to weaken the molecule.

here is problem number two..

ahhh.... I find it difficult the molecule will be able to "elongate"

so .
for this to work an external force will have to be greater than the solidified crystal matrix that was formed.
said force can be a high voltage potential...

if the static lines can overcome the shielding effect of the bond geometry....
then im assuming the molecule will split... and stay stuck within the bond or spontaneously expand  into gas bypassing the liquid state.

check this video ... Thomas Kin actually tested this idea... very good results..! what does it prove?  #1 that in solid crystal structure it will act more like a resistor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPzDuPET4U

Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on March 31st, 2015, 07:56 PM

Thanks for your comments.

Silica dioxide was a sugestion to increase resistance altough Silica acid is whats converts to Silica dioxide.... not the other way around.. according to same wiki source...

If you're using frequency to try to split water, try adding acetone to the water. For some unknown reason, the acetone increases the water's resistance to high frequency electricity far more than it should. Careful you don't have any sparks, though.

Note that while acetone does increase the resistance of water to high frequency electricity, it doesn't affect the electrolysis of the water. I think that might be part of the reason Stan Meyer was able to use low enough power into his WFC that splitting the water took less energy than what he got back out of it when running the engine to power the car. Nothing to back that up, of course, just a hunch.

Quote from Heuristicobfuscation on September 27th, 2015, 05:30 AM

Yes agreed...

that is problem we are facing... water doing what it wants...
eating up the voltage converting it to amps...

According to the formula  V = √W × Ω      if we apply  say 1000volts... the Resistance should rise! if we manage to restrict amps..

So how is the  resistance increased in water?   

that has been the question ive been pursuing in this post...

But lately  ive come to the realization that this formula may not apply in all cases....
we may not need the resistance to rise at all... it may just be that voltage does not need resistance in the conversion to current.

example... all closed circuits have a source of power....in which in its path always returns to source...

This is not the case with static electricity...........
lightning does not return force back to source!    //   rather its an interchange of charge.....
But this is not the case with conventional closed loop circuits!

This is what ive been thinking.....
It could be that Stan Meyers was using the VIC/EEC as a(Pulsed DC to Static Generator converter).

This makes lots more sense to me because upon "switch off " or "gate time"  of the  VIC the EEC would take over and
Attract charge in water thereby reducing amounts of ions in it...possibly allowing voltage to accumulate rather than
allowing ion charge to avalanche..

This is a hybrid circuit........a circuit that goes from current flow to Static charge!

This video shows simple concept of water attraction to charge.      molecule are definitely aligning up to polarity.just as Stans mentions....

we dont want the water to discharge...
we dont want the water to conduct current.
we dont want "Catastrohic failure" of dielectric property of water.   
we dont want such a high voltage potential that arcing occurs within the capacitor.


Rather:

we want the water to "align".   (like in video bellow)
we want the water to "elongate"  (that is) increase energy source of aligment..
we want the water molecule  to  "switch off" or give up its electrons...(this is were the EEC comes in) link bellow.

 http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=2425.msg34436#msg34436

once the  covalent bond or internal charge no longer exist...the molecule no longer sticks togherter. (This is "Switch off")

were does all the static potential go?
has it been converterd to kinetic? 

if it has then we failed to restrict the amps flow.

if up to this point we have managed to restrict amp flow in cell.
Then a nonviolent separation has occurred withing the water molecule.



At this point we have created free floating electrons........ what to do with all this electrons?  Extract them.... (EEC) use as DC power.

practicaly how can we achieve this?
This is what I think..   
we need two ingrideients..

#1... constant source of Electrostatic diff of potential.
#2.. a means to extract the free floating electrons produced by the elongation.

so for the first one... I belive this is the purposse of the VIC... a Electromagnetic to Static converter.
for the second one we need a true nonreplicated (EEC) Electron Extraction Circuit) (nobody has replicated this..at least not in public)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhWQ-r1LYXY

I just had a thought... what if one were to provide two negative plates separated at the angle of the two hydrogens, and a single positive plate oppositely positioned to those two negative plates. This would align the water molecules pretty precisely, better than only two plates could.

Then, we hit the water with the high frequency from the hydrogen side, from two different angles, at the necessary angles and frequencies (because remember, we'd have to use two different frequencies since each O-H bond is a different length, and we'd have to shift the frequency down a bit as the O-H bonds become stressed to keep adding energy to them) to slice the hydrogens off the oxygen with maximum efficiency?

Obviously, since we're dealing with angles, there'll be a "sweet spot" in the electrolizing container in which the angles of the voltage aligning the water molecules, and the angles of the frequency emitters which we're using to hit the O-H bonds, are just right.

For tube-within-tube designs, I believe it'd be better to go negative on the outside tube (so you'd have your water molecules aligned hydrogen molecules facing outward), positive on the inside, but that makes it difficult to hit the O-H bonds at the right angle to cleave the molecules, since you can't really fit separate frequency emitters in between the tubes at the correct angles.