Step by step VIC build

HMS-776

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #175, on March 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM »Last edited on March 21st, 2012, 06:06 PM by HMS-776
Can someone tell me how the feedback coil is supposed to be wound?

I know its center tapped, but are the two coils wound:
-together bifilar
-one on top of the other
-Or next to each other (each taking up half of the bobbin from the inside to the outside)

I'm guessing it's wound so that the center tap is directly between the + and - outputs so it's neutral, like most center tapped coils are.

Webmug

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #176, on March 22nd, 2012, 11:43 AM »
Quote from HMS-776 on March 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM
Can someone tell me how the feedback coil is supposed to be wound?

I know its center tapped, but are the two coils wound:
-together bifilar
-one on top of the other
-Or next to each other (each taking up half of the bobbin from the inside to the outside)

I'm guessing it's wound so that the center tap is directly between the + and - outputs so it's neutral, like most center tapped coils are.
Hi HMS,

Only one VIC pickup coil was connected according to scetches from Dynodon.

Br,
Webmug

Muxar


~Russ

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #178, on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM »Last edited on March 25th, 2012, 04:00 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ

firepinto

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #179, on March 25th, 2012, 08:18 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could buy 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate
RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #180, on March 25th, 2012, 08:19 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
this is something i have been looking at for a while now. i know we can tune the measurements in with the air gap... me and Dave,josh,and Chris have been discussing this over the phone for about 2-3 months as we have been looking in to the cores.

i truly think there is no gap. i also have talked to don and he stated there was no gap when he took Stan's VIC apart. that photo they show in the video is after don took the VIC apart... so yeah, there is a gap... but look at all the other photos... there is a silicone glue over all the other holes. there would have been a plastic thing to hold the gap... don did not find plastic when took the VIC apart.

i also think that the measurements may be flawed... if don took the VIC apart then measured the coils there may have been a small gap... so it all may be wrong...

this is why we are thinking about 1200 perm. this should get us about in that spot with no gap.

here is some good info on why one would use a gap in this type of design :
http://power.elecdesign.com/Articles/index.cfm?ArticleID=22204&pg=2&stylename=green
Quote
FLYBACK TRANSFORMER DESIGN
A standard practice for designing a flyback transformer is to evaluate the energy needs of the SMPS and, using information from the ferrite manufacturer, choose a ferrite platform that will accommodate these needs. Ferrite cores offer self-shielded shapes with bobbins that are easily wound, an alternative to powder iron toroids or E cores. When the inductance value is calculated by the power-supply designer and the maximum current is then known, the stored energy is calculated by:



In many SMPS applications, energy and power are significant, and large ferrite shapes with gaps machined into the magnetic path must be used. But in today’s world of portable, low-power devices, the energy requirements can be minimal and small ferrite shapes (i.e., EP7) are used for the flyback transformer design. In some instances, the requirements are so low, a gap is not needed for energy purposes.

For example, a 300-µH inductance value that must allow 100 mA of average current has an I2L power requirement of 3 × 10–5 joules. Using a ferrite manufacturer’s data on energy versus gap size, such as the tabulated data from a Ferroxcube graph in Table 1, an EP7 ferrite size with a gap of less than 0.1 mm is specified. This gap size is the lowest value listed, essentially a non-gapped value. Unless the ferrite mating surfaces are polished, this gap distance is the average physical distance due to uneven surfaces of non-gapped cores.

Specifying a ferrite core without a gap has its advantages in the design of many magnetic components. But the flyback SMPS power capability will suffer if an ungapped ferrite core is used. For non-flyback, non-inductor applications, one advantage of an ungapped magnetic path is that it allows a minimum number of turns of copper wire to achieve a specific value of inductance.

When a gap is introduced into the ferrite core’s magnetic path, the overall ferrite structure’s ability to produce a specific inductance using a minimum number of wire turns (also called the AL value) is changed significantly. If one machines a gap in the core, the needed turns will increase, and this would increase the winding resistance.

These two characteristics, machining a gap (more cost) and adding resistance (more losses), are typically unattractive to transformer manufacturers. So to the novice designer, eager to produce a low-cost, seemingly efficient flyback transformer, the use of an ungapped ferrite is at first appealing. However, the lowpower ferrite flyback transformer should in almost all applications be designed using a gapped ferrite shape.

FERRITE THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS
Ungapped ferrites for low-power flyback transformers aren’t a good choice mainly because of the fluctuation in inductance over temperature. Figure 3 illustrates typical AL values (inductance producing capabilities per turn squared) of gapped and non-gapped ferrite cores over temperature, based on the data in Table 2. Notice the large variations in the ungapped ferrite as compared to the almost constant response of the gapped ferrite.

A flyback transformer, using an ungapped ferrite with an inductance value of 300 µH at room temperature, would have an inductance value of 170 µH at –40°C and 570 µH at 120°C. With a gap, the values of inductance are 285 µH at –40°C and 311 µH at 120°C. This is within a 10% tolerance over the extended temperature range with a gapped ferrite versus about a 200% variation with an ungapped ferrite.

IMPROVED SMPS POWER CAPABILITY
At high temperatures, the inductance of a non-gapped flyback transformer increases significantly. An increase in the inductance has the same effect as a drop in the input voltage, as seen in Equation 1. Much has been written about minimum input voltage for SMPS design, as it is a critical value. Minimum input voltage (or high flyback transformer inductance) and maximum output load increase the power demand on the SMPS.

These conditions cause the ON time (duty cycle) of the switching to increase, as the circuit works to feed more current and power to the load. Most SMPS designers use minimum input voltage, minimum output impedance (maximum load), desired efficiency, and maximum duty cycle time to calculate the inductance value of the flyback transformer. A transformer may be designed to meet this value at room temperature. But without a gap, trouble arises when the temperature increases.

The discontinuous mode flyback SMPS has a maximum duty cycle. Once that limit is reached, the SMPS cannot produce any further power from a constant input voltage. The ungapped flyback transformer will reach this limitation when subjected to high temperature, low input voltage, or increased power demand.

In discontinuous mode, all of the energy stored in the primary is allowed to disperse into the secondary before a new cycle starts. Figure 2 shows this “dead” time as a period where there is no current flow in either the primary or the secondary.

Continuous-mode design allows a new cycle to start while there is still energy in the transformer. Additional circuitry can be employed to create a flyback SMPS that will transition from discontinuous into continuous mode, but this adds cost. Figure 4 compares the gapped flyback transformer waveforms to the non-gapped flyback transformer at high temperatures. Both the gapped and non-gapped flyback transformers had the same primary inductance at room temperature.

The current waveform for the gapped flyback transformer reaches a higher peak value in less time, indicative of its lower inductance value and higher di/dt slope value. There is a dead time of zero current before the next cycle starts keeping it well within the discontinuous mode. The waveform for the ungapped flyback transformer does not reach the needed peak current, because at higher temperature its inductance has increased, lowering its di/dt slope value.

To remain in the discontinuous mode, the time ON has to be restricted so all the energy stored can be dissipated into the load (secondary). The ungapped flyback transformer SMPS is unable to provide the same amount of power as the gapped flyback transformer SMPS when temperature increases.

Remember that flyback transformers aren’t truly transformers, but coupled inductors that need stable inductance at high temperatures to deliver maximum power. Trying to save 10% to 20% of the cost of a gapped ferrite by leaving it ungapped can lead to poor power delivery performance at high temperatures, low input voltage, and high power demand. The ferrite flyback transformer needs to have a gap. When it comes to ferrite flyback transformer design, be sure to “mind the gap.”
its kinda up in the air...

they also make ferrite that will not saturate even at higher temps... That's one thing we are keeping in mined. the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.


Material:MN67, Permeability:1200, Application:High Flux Density, High Curie Temp.
http://www.cmi-ferrite.com/Products/Materials/data/MN67.pdf

all in all I'm still going the "normal round core" to see if we can get there with this crazy core... i believe that the core and coils set is flat to fit in the card slot... so we can make it better/cheaper... and i hope to do that...

I'm thinking the gap is not suppose to be there. i also think it may be a good idea as we can tune the coils that way... but I'm not going for the gap...

those are my thoughts...

~Russ
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could do 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate
RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #181, on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 03:38 AM
the cores that josh and Webmug have sourced out are "Minimum order would be 10 pcs @ $53.41 ea. MN67 material." so that's per half so a set would be 106.82 for the set. josh is still waiting on some other company's to reply. it may be a better price or no min order...  i would like to get just one to test and make sure its going to make the cut! then order more, but we may need to start a pot and order all 5 sets. i know there is 2 already that want them. so if we go this rought, i need 3 more people that want the 1200 perm cores. (let me know if your interested so i can get a start on it)  even if there wrong we will have something to play with... that's the only downer... but its a min order so we don't have a choice.
Pen me in for 1 pair of 1200 perm.:cool:  If needed I could do 2 pair, to get the order going.  :)

Nate

HMS-776

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #182, on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM »
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.








~Russ

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #183, on March 25th, 2012, 05:23 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.
yeah, i think there is know gap. also, do you have any more data on your thoughts on this??? any reference data? also did you want to put in order in for one set? or no?

all,

i believe at this point all i need is one more person to make the order for the cores.  

if by chance we go over 5 sets it may be cheaper. but again. we don't know if this is the correct perm... but we need to start somewhere.

blessings!!!

~Russ

Jeff Nading

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #184, on March 25th, 2012, 06:28 PM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 25th, 2012, 05:23 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 10:09 AM
You could use a gap to get the right inductances, but by doing this you will introduce a parasitic component which will prevent the coil from outputting a unipolar pulse...So, it won't work.
yeah, i think there is know gap. also, do you have any more data on your thoughts on this??? any reference data? also did you want to put in order in for one set? or no?

all,

i believe at this point all i need is one more person to make the order for the cores.  

if by chance we go over 5 sets it may be cheaper. but again. we don't know if this is the correct perm... but we need to start somewhere.

blessings!!!

~Russ
Russ put me in for one, Jeff.

HMS-776

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #185, on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM »Last edited on March 25th, 2012, 08:48 PM by HMS-776
Yes I will order one core, just PM me with your payment method and the total price.

As far as reference data here is a good place to start.
http://www.ferroxcube.com/news/gate%20drive%20trafo.pdf

 Also notice on the core selection they show N67, that's good news for us!

 The VIC is meant to produce a unipolar pulse across the cap. This is stated in nearly all of Stan's documents. Parasitic components such as leakage inductance and distributed capacitance can cause the coil to output AC.

This is one reason for the high resistance wire in the injector VIC.
The bifilar windings cause the coils to have a high distributed capacitance. To prevent the coils from producing AC they must be damped. This cannot be done by adding a resistor in series to the coils since the coils inductance and the coils capacitance form a parallel tank. So the resistance must be designed as a component of the wire. The damping factor is critical in this coil design. If not correct AC will result. There are actually quite a few components which can cause the coil to produce AC, but the two which contribute most are the leakage inductance and distributed capacitance.


Webmug

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #186, on March 26th, 2012, 02:55 AM »Last edited on March 26th, 2012, 04:56 AM by Webmug
Quote from HMS-776 on March 25th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Yes I will order one core, just PM me with your payment method and the total price.

As far as reference data here is a good place to start.
http://www.ferroxcube.com/news/gate%20drive%20trafo.pdf

 Also notice on the core selection they show N67, that's good news for us!

 The VIC is meant to produce a unipolar pulse across the cap. This is stated in nearly all of Stan's documents. Parasitic components such as leakage inductance and distributed capacitance can cause the coil to output AC.

This is one reason for the high resistance wire in the injector VIC.
The bifilar windings cause the coils to have a high distributed capacitance. To prevent the coils from producing AC they must be damped. This cannot be done by adding a resistor in series to the coils since the coils inductance and the coils capacitance form a parallel tank. So the resistance must be designed as a component of the wire. The damping factor is critical in this coil design. If not correct AC will result. There are actually quite a few components which can cause the coil to produce AC, but the two which contribute most are the leakage inductance and distributed capacitance.
Stanley Meyer: PATENT WO 92/07861 page 6

“In the invention, the water capacitor is subjected to a duty pulse which builds up in the resonant charging choke coil and then collapses. This occurrence permits a unipolar pulse to be applied to the fuel cell capacitor. When a resonant condition of the circuit is locked-in by the circuit, amp leakage is held to a minimum as the voltage which creates the dielectric field tends to infinity.

Turns are a design variable that controls the voltage of the unipolar pulses sent to the capacitor.

The pulse to the water capacitor is always unipolar.

The diode is an electronic switch that determines the generation and collapse of an electromagnetic field to permit the resonant charging choke(s) to double the applied frequency and also allows the pulse to be sent to the resonant cavity without discharging the ‘capacitor’ therein.”



Re-read above text again very carefully.



A few years back a ran a test of a choke coil.
First I didn't know what it meant "resonant charging choke coils", but now a do!

Gate tunes the charge rate of the choke coil and when pulse is OFF, the choke discharge itself into the WFC in the form of a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

Resonance is when the PLL generates a AC signal on the secondary coil.
Choke turns count controls the voltage amplitude Vmax of the unipolar pulses send to the WFC. But you have to tune on this with the gate signal (duty cycle).

The core magnetic pulsing field is very important, this couples all the coils!

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Does a capacitor block DC or AC or both?
Does a choke block DC or AC or both?

A capacitor blocks DC.
A coil blocks AC?

Let me know what You think, how this signal from the choke looks like.
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.

Br,
Webmug


HMS-776

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #187, on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM »Last edited on March 26th, 2012, 09:49 PM by HMS-776
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D

Sharky

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #188, on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)

Webmug

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #189, on March 26th, 2012, 11:55 PM »
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
Hi,
Question, do you have 50% du from the cell driver circuit?
Also maintain this when frequency go up and down if the scanner is active? The PLL has 50% output,but if it runs through the cell driver it is not.

I have Tony's PCB, it still needs tuning with some components on the board. It doesn't have 50% du. But Tony did a great job.

Br,
Webmug

~Russ

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #190, on March 27th, 2012, 02:08 AM »Last edited on March 27th, 2012, 02:11 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
Quote from Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 11:55 PM
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
Hi,
Question, do you have 50% du from the cell driver circuit?
Also maintain this when frequency go up and down if the scanner is active? The PLL has 50% output,but if it runs through the cell driver it is not.

I have Tony's PCB, it still needs tuning with some components on the board. It doesn't have 50% du. But Tony did a great job.

Br,
Webmug
FYI, i was getting back what the circuit putting out. , including a 50% ( or what ever it was putting out) duty signal.

thanks, ~Russ
Quote
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.
could please pose it.

Jeff Nading

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #191, on March 27th, 2012, 06:26 AM »
Quote from Sharky on March 26th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Quote from HMS-776 on March 26th, 2012, 09:43 PM
Just to let everyone here know. Tony Woodside (globalkast.com) has released his PCB files onto his site.
Now we have the PLL circuit....Also if you can't build the circuit or don't want to take the time I suggest buying one from his site. (Some of the footprints are quite small so they might be hard to get to show up on a board.)
They are very well designed and made....I bought one a few months back.

-Be sure to thank him as I know he has worked very hard to just give the design away!

Here's the link: http://www.globalkast.com/docs/VIC_Circuit_Production.pdf

BTW he said the layout in the pdf file is the exact size as the original so they can be printed out and used to make the PCB:D
I would hold onto your money just a bit more!!!. As i posted yesterday i have finally all circuits working on the breadboard. I am currently working on the last details of the PCB and hope to order a test PCB this week. If all is working correctly you can make your PCB for FREE instead of $200!!!! If there is sufficient interrest we could order a larger amount off pcb's which would bring the price down to arround $35-$40.

So yes, very nice Tony releases an image of his pcb just after Russ and i are finishing ours entirly free for all, ... What a coincidence ;)
[/quote

Hi Sharky, I didn't know if you knew about this PCB manufacturer, here's a link,
http://midnightmaker.com/
really good prices, and if you order put me down for one, thanks.


Webmug

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #192, on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM »
Quote from Webmug on March 26th, 2012, 02:55 AM
Stanley Meyer: PATENT WO 92/07861 page 6

“In the invention, the water capacitor is subjected to a duty pulse which builds up in the resonant charging choke coil and then collapses. This occurrence permits a unipolar pulse to be applied to the fuel cell capacitor. When a resonant condition of the circuit is locked-in by the circuit, amp leakage is held to a minimum as the voltage which creates the dielectric field tends to infinity.

Turns are a design variable that controls the voltage of the unipolar pulses sent to the capacitor.

The pulse to the water capacitor is always unipolar.

The diode is an electronic switch that determines the generation and collapse of an electromagnetic field to permit the resonant charging choke(s) to double the applied frequency and also allows the pulse to be sent to the resonant cavity without discharging the ‘capacitor’ therein.”



Re-read above text again very carefully.



A few years back a ran a test of a choke coil.
First I didn't know what it meant "resonant charging choke coils", but now a do!

Gate tunes the charge rate of the choke coil and when pulse is OFF, the choke discharge itself into the WFC in the form of a UNIPOLAR PULSE.

Resonance is when the PLL generates a AC signal on the secondary coil.
Choke turns count controls the voltage amplitude Vmax of the unipolar pulses send to the WFC. But you have to tune on this with the gate signal (duty cycle).

The core magnetic pulsing field is very important, this couples all the coils!

You have to ask yourself a few questions:
Does a capacitor block DC or AC or both?
Does a choke block DC or AC or both?

A capacitor blocks DC.
A coil blocks AC?

Let me know what You think, how this signal from the choke looks like.
I have a scope shot to show You this if I have a few answers.
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug


HMS-776

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #193, on March 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM »
What do you guys recommend/use as far as oscilloscopes and HV probes are concerned?

I have been looking at the Parallax Propscope (USB scope) for about $200.
It has a spectrum analyzer which I think is important for what we are trying to do...I also want something with a digital LCR meter....

Either way I think I will be making my own HV probes with a 1,000 : 1 voltage divider just to be on the safe side.


~Russ

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #194, on March 27th, 2012, 11:06 PM »
Quote from HMS-776 on March 27th, 2012, 08:09 PM
What do you guys recommend/use as far as oscilloscopes and HV probes are concerned?

I have been looking at the Parallax Propscope (USB scope) for about $200.
It has a spectrum analyzer which I think is important for what we are trying to do...I also want something with a digital LCR meter....

Either way I think I will be making my own HV probes with a 1,000 : 1 voltage divider just to be on the safe side.
i and Alex petty just connect out scope leads over the wire or near the inductors and put the scope on the smaller ranges... no need to connect the scope directly to the circuit... works well...

~Russ

Sharky

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #195, on March 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM »
Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Ok, did you measure that between the choke and capacitor? That looks like a perfect scope shot! Step charging the capacitor at resonance and then the high voltage pulse when the signal is gated and the magnetic field collapses at the coil releasing all energy to the capacitor. If you can create the oposite on the other coil/side of capacitor then you should be there. With what setup did you generated this, what coils, capacitors, did you have a diode in?

Good work there ...

Webmug

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #196, on March 28th, 2012, 10:45 AM »
Quote from Sharky on March 27th, 2012, 11:25 PM
Quote from Webmug on March 27th, 2012, 07:47 AM
Ok, here are my scope shots.

:exclamation: Let me know what you think :exclamation:

Br,
Webmug
Ok, did you measure that between the choke and capacitor? That looks like a perfect scope shot! Step charging the capacitor at resonance and then the high voltage pulse when the signal is gated and the magnetic field collapses at the coil releasing all energy to the capacitor. If you can create the oposite on the other coil/side of capacitor then you should be there. With what setup did you generated this, what coils, capacitors, did you have a diode in?

Good work there ...
Hi Sharky,

This is what I have, it is too much time in between when I did the test.
WFC or capacitor was not connected. Diode was there.
I remember when I connected the WFC the signal was gone.

Br,
Webmug

~Russ

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #197, on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM »Last edited on March 29th, 2012, 04:07 AM by ~Russ/Rwg42985
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ

haxar

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #198, on March 29th, 2012, 02:16 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME AND HOW.
I should need a set as well. Will PM also.

Jeff Nading

RE: Step by step VIC build
« Reply #199, on March 29th, 2012, 04:23 AM »
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM
all, i will be placing an order for the cores for the VIC Monday, as discussed before.

i have a list here and need to know if i got everyone that wanted one.

also note that we do not know if this is the correct perm... and the min order is 10 pics ( 5 sets) so if you want to wait till i see if the measurements are correct then just wait. as long as i get 5 people... we are good...

~Russ
Joshua
Sharky
Nate
Jeff
Webmug
HMS-776
Dave
Chris
haxar

the wait time is 4-6 weeks!!! so yeah...

its 106$ for the set of cores (5 pieces at $53.41 ea. MN67 material.) perm is 1200

also if your in the US  its 5$ for shipping.

if your in a another country i think i can ship for about 10-15$ but this has no tracking... so its like 60-80$ with tracking... that's your call. depending on your location. if i get your address i will have a better idea of price.

IF YOUR ORDERING I NEED YOU TO POST HERE THAT YOU WANT ONE AND THEN SEND ME A PM WITH YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO SEND ME THE FUNDING.

sweet! looking forward to it!  

Thanks! let me know by 3-31-12 please.

~Russ
Count me in Russ.