PROJECT ICARUS

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #1, on May 13th, 2013, 06:31 AM »Last edited on May 13th, 2013, 08:00 AM by Matt Watts
I guess my question is:

Can I take a normal brute force HHO dry cell and do something to the gas coming out of it to make the gas powerful enough to run an engine?

What I know first hand is that 8 - 10 LpM HHO will not even idle a 305cc engine.  It will start and suck the bubbler empty of any HHO and die in about three seconds.  So there must be more to it than that.

Seems to me from what I gather in the video, all I need is electron extraction--run it though a tube of 660nm LEDs and I should be off to the races.  I'm thinking it must be far more complicated than that.  Yes?

Ray Don

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #2, on May 13th, 2013, 01:19 PM »Last edited on May 13th, 2013, 02:03 PM by Matt Watts
Quote from Dog-One on May 13th, 2013, 06:31 AM
I guess my question is:

Can I take a normal brute force HHO dry cell and do something to the gas coming out of it to make the gas powerful enough to run an engine?

What I know first hand is that 8 - 10 LpM HHO will not even idle a 305cc engine.  It will start and suck the bubbler empty of any HHO and die in about three seconds.  So there must be more to it than that.

Seems to me from what I gather in the video, all I need is electron extraction--run it though a tube of 660nm LEDs and I should be off to the races.  I'm thinking it must be far more complicated than that.  Yes?
here is my reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT7p72QGME4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT7p72QGME4

pwrpro

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #3, on May 13th, 2013, 03:11 PM »
Very impressing! My question: How would you say you allow voltage over the cell? For most of us the voltage drops to near zero volts when one attaches the cell.

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #4, on May 13th, 2013, 04:32 PM »
Well, sort of.  Yeah, Stan needed to do a lot to the HHO so that 1 or 2 LpM acts like 20 to 50 LpM.  Good enough for government I reckon.

The last figures I have for running "untouched" HHO is about 1 LpM for every 10cc of engine displacement for full power and from my work in the shop, that appears pretty much dead on.  So if you have a 10 HP (305cc displacement) Briggs & Stratton engine connected to a generator and want to get back the full 5000 Watts the generator is capable of, plan on just over 30 LpM straight HHO to do it.  And you will need to make pretty significant ignition and valve timing adjustments too.  An ICE built for gasoline will be no where close to what you need for HHO.

So we know Stan never came close to producing that quantity of gas; what we need to find out is how we can take a simple dry cell that has moderately good production and tweak the output gas to increase its effective thermal expansion.  Without that, forget running anything serious on water, unless you just want to do it for fun--keep your big 15KW generator handy though, you'll need it.

adys15

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #5, on May 14th, 2013, 01:19 AM »
Quote from pwrpro on May 13th, 2013, 03:11 PM
Very impressing! My question: How would you say you allow voltage over the cell? For most of us the voltage drops to near zero volts when one attaches the cell.
Try JL Naudin's setup ,it works,not in kv range but prooves the concept,depends how big you make your inductor.Cheers!

Jeff Nading

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #6, on May 14th, 2013, 04:21 PM »
Enjoyed your video Max, thanks for your hard work. Jeff.:cool::D:P



gpssonar

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #9, on May 19th, 2013, 04:03 AM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 04:12 AM by gpssonar
Dog, As i stated on my thread the VIC is just a economical way of poducing gas. It is not intended to run a large ICE alone. It was only to get away from the wall outlet so it could be ran off of the battery voltage. Once you can split the water molecule in a economical way (voltage and very little amps) then you use the gas processer to strip the electrons to make the gas more powerful. If you have ever watched the hydrogen bomb that was droped in Japan, that was not just a tank of Hydrogen, it was hydrogen and oxygen with all the electrons striped from the atom. What caused all the damage for miles an miles away was the oxygen and hydrogen atoms trying to reform to get their electrons back. So to make a long story short the more electrons that you pull away the more powerful the gas. This is where all the science come into play that H2opower talks about.

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #10, on May 19th, 2013, 11:01 AM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 12:33 PM by Matt Watts
I hear you gps.  What I'd still like to know is if I can take a regular brute force dry cell and do something to the gas so that it will run an ICE.  What I've proven to my satisfaction at the moment is that is takes massive quantities of untreated HHO to run even a small engine.

I have sat aside the "Meyer's Effect" as Captain Kirk calls it for now, because I just don't understand it and haven't been able to reproduce it.  You guys take the lead on this one.  Instead, I'm doing more conventional testing by producing HHO brute force.  I even built me a HHO torch workbench which has come in handy for soldering and melting of various metals.  I also tried using this gas with quantities close to 10 LpM to run my 305cc genset engine and it flatly doesn't have enough energy to do more than a quick start then die.  Now Max says it should be plenty powerful enough, but I don't see that on my bench.  What I see is a gas that takes a lot of power to produce and gives back no more than about 80% in useful mechanical power.  So my question still remains, is there something I can do to the HHO to boost its energetic power by an order of magnitude?

Ed shows his gas processor device in that video and I recall seeing a similar device with a quartz tube in Max's video too.  What I'm looking for is somebody that has built such a device, put HHO through it and made an engine easily run with this treated HHO.  Even more useful is if they tried running the same engine with the same HHO flow rate without this gas processor and the engine clearly didn't run.  I can build this goofy little light bright box and try it myself, but I can't imagine it would actually have any noticeable effect on the gas.  Surely somebody knows whether it would actually work or not that can show me the difference, before and after.

[attachment=3768]

GoldBl4d3

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #11, on May 19th, 2013, 12:09 PM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 01:11 PM by Matt Watts
Yes well if you watch stans videos (im sure you have) he describes why stripping the electrons creates more energy output. Energy comes from the nucleus of the atom, or the 3rd dimension. This is what keeps electrons spinning around the nucleus without stopping. When you strip the electrons from the two atoms, it tries to go back and form a covalent bond but it cannot, so the aperture of space and time opens up in the nucleus and releases enough energy to restabilize the atom. Literally creating new electrons from the nucleus.

This energy opening results in 1000 times the output energy (or something like that) because of the size of the protons. Stan likes to mention that einstein said you can propel a train around the earth several times with a gallon of water, you just have to figure out how to release its energy.

This is all what stan told us why this works.

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #12, on May 19th, 2013, 12:36 PM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 12:36 PM by Matt Watts
I'm not asking for that much here...

Someone just show me HHO not running an engine, then the same HHO running the same engine after going through a mickey mouse box surrounded with LEDs.  Then I'll make up my own damn mind if it works or not.

GoldBl4d3

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #13, on May 19th, 2013, 05:00 PM »
Quote from Dog-One on May 19th, 2013, 12:36 PM
I'm not asking for that much here...

Someone just show me HHO not running an engine, then the same HHO running the same engine after going through a mickey mouse box surrounded with LEDs.  Then I'll make up my own ***** mind if it works or not.
Geez, make a model yourself and see if it works. Its that simple. Everyone wants to sit around and see if anyone is going to actually make it work.

Im working on one right now. Not even going to bother with the VIC since its not needed.

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #14, on May 19th, 2013, 06:02 PM »
Quote from GoldBl4d3 on May 19th, 2013, 05:00 PM
Im working on one right now. Not even going to bother with the VIC since its not needed.
Thank you.

I put several dozen powerful red LEDs around a piece of Silastic tubing and covered the whole thing with a nearly mirror-like aluminum pipe while watching the output from my HHO torch and I see zero difference.  So at the moment I'm not convinced unless someone can show me more.  I highly doubt LEDs are going to strip off any electrons from the gas passing through.  Now maybe a kilowatt laser would a little, but it better work fast because at 5 to 10 LpM, those gas atoms aren't going to stick around very long.  And even then, the power the laser consumes adds to the problem, it doesn't help solve it.

Me thinks me smells blue smoke...

gpssonar

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #15, on May 19th, 2013, 06:19 PM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 06:40 PM by gpssonar
Dog, I realy don't think just exposing the gas to red led's will do any good at all. From what i have read and understand is the led's at the right wavelength and also pulsed at the right frequency will eject the electorns from their orbit. If one is completly ejected you must have a way to attract the electron and remove it from the gas that is where the Electron Extraction Grid and curcuit comes into play. I have yet to play around with this curcuit, so I can't say it will work or not work but that is my understanding of how it works. Max Miller has a video up showing the EEC and how it works the way stan has it in his drawing.

 


Ravenous Emu

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #16, on May 19th, 2013, 06:25 PM »
I'd like to throw my two cents in. :D

I think Blade, Dog, and Gps are all correct...

You have to add photons in order to help grab/pull the electrons away from the nucleus.  So that when you burn the highly "ionized" gasses... you get a bigger boom.

:D :cool: :p

Matt Watts

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #17, on May 19th, 2013, 07:11 PM »Last edited on May 19th, 2013, 07:12 PM by Matt Watts
Quote from gpssonar on May 19th, 2013, 06:19 PM
From what i have read and understand is the led's at the right wavelength and also pulsed at the right frequency will eject the electorns from their orbit. If one is completly ejected you must have a way to attract the electron and remove it from the gas that is where the Electron Extraction Grid and curcuit comes into play.
Good grief.  So now we need a photon exciter AND an electron extractor.  No wonder people are still driving their cars on petroleum.  And may I ask, how much more juice are those two components going to chew up before I can get any HHO that will actually run an engine?


Lynx

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #19, on May 20th, 2013, 12:39 AM »Last edited on May 20th, 2013, 12:41 AM by Lynx
Quote from Dog-One on May 19th, 2013, 07:11 PM
Quote from gpssonar on May 19th, 2013, 06:19 PM
From what i have read and understand is the led's at the right wavelength and also pulsed at the right frequency will eject the electorns from their orbit. If one is completly ejected you must have a way to attract the electron and remove it from the gas that is where the Electron Extraction Grid and curcuit comes into play.
Good grief.  So now we need a photon exciter AND an electron extractor.  No wonder people are still driving their cars on petroleum.  And may I ask, how much more juice are those two components going to chew up before I can get any HHO that will actually run an engine?
Remember the very first cell Meyer built?
It didn't have any LED's/lasers/photon exciter/electron extractor, but it worked just as well without any of it.
Unless Meyer got some divine download, which outlined to him just how to piece it all together using all these things, I think that he pretty much started more or less from scratch.

Btw, anyone know what K.I.S.S. stands for.........? :angel:

gpssonar

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #20, on May 20th, 2013, 02:36 AM »
@ lynx, If you are talking about the tub cell that he had in the yard that was running the buggy, He never drove the buggy on that cell, He produced enough gas to idle the buggy. All the videos i have seen when he was driving the buggy had everything on the buggy to make it driveable. All i got to say about the K.I.S.S method is, If it was so simple to build this and compact it in a size small enough to put it all on a vehicle why did it take him 15 years. As Stan stated himself in his own video, He thought it would only take 6 months to a year to implement this in production but in reality it took 15 years. I belive that blows the K.I.S.S method out the window.

GoldBl4d3

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #21, on May 20th, 2013, 02:41 AM »Last edited on May 20th, 2013, 02:49 AM by GoldBl4d3
Quote from Dog-One on May 19th, 2013, 07:11 PM
Quote from gpssonar on May 19th, 2013, 06:19 PM
From what i have read and understand is the led's at the right wavelength and also pulsed at the right frequency will eject the electorns from their orbit. If one is completly ejected you must have a way to attract the electron and remove it from the gas that is where the Electron Extraction Grid and curcuit comes into play.
Good grief.  So now we need a photon exciter AND an electron extractor.  No wonder people are still driving their cars on petroleum.  And may I ask, how much more juice are those two components going to chew up before I can get any HHO that will actually run an engine?
Electron extractor is only going to eat up the amount of electrons that become free. So not a whole lot. Infact the whole processor can be ran using just one circuit.

I dont know if you understand but LEDs will cause the electrons to go in to a higher orbit very briefly. What happends then is the orbit lowers down to ground state and releases energy to the next atom. This is the basics of light travel.

The point being is the LEDs will put the photos in to a higher state with extremely low input energy.

As far as the center peice I think people have it all wrong. I see a lot of corona discharges using high amps, low voltages and DC. Thats the worst.

What I believe the core of it is, is simply an electromagnetic wave generator, just like that of cell phone or walky talky. The point being, is the waves will reflect back and another wave will generate and repeat this step until you have a massive amount of energy in each energy wave. Same process with the LED's, with these combined the electron extraction grid simply plucks it off of the atom because its in such a high energy state, it comes off no problem.

I do NOT believe that you completely ionize the gas as it goes up. I believe that you prime the gas in to a high energy state, then simply suck the electron right off the atom.

In russ and other people on the internet seem to think that you should ionize this gas as it goes up.

Well we know that ionizing means that the electron completely comes off of the atom. Then the atom will suck it right back in and release its energy (aka the UV light you see from plasma or a specific color you see from neon signs). So its really inefficient to ionize the gas all of the way.

This is just my theory, I may be wrong.
Quote from gpssonar on May 20th, 2013, 02:36 AM
@ lynx, If you are talking about the tub cell that he had in the yard that was running the buggy, He never drove the buggy on that cell, He produced enough gas to idle the buggy. All the videos i have seen when he was driving the buggy had everything on the buggy to make it driveable. All i got to say about the K.I.S.S method is, If it was so simple to build this and compact it in a size small enough to put it all on a vehicle why did it take him 15 years. As Stan stated himself in his own video, He thought it would only take 6 months to a year to implement this in production but in reality it took 15 years. I belive that blows the K.I.S.S method out the window.
You dont seem to understand the KISS method then. Keep it simple stupid. The simplest things in the world take the longest to make. He refers to the process, not the research. It takes a long time of research and to actually develop and progress the development in to a product that is usable.

How long did it take for the atom bomb to be made. Even it follows the KISS method. It took the brightest scientists in the world to make it and it still took 3-5 years to make.

How does it work:

Mine Uranium-238. Add fluorine and spin it in a centrifuge. The uranium 238 will go against the edges while the uranium 235 will stay close to the middle. Seperate the two and create 98% Uranium 235 block.

Shoot a uranium 235 bullet at a large block of uranium 235 and booooooob.

Now if it gets more simpler than that, let me know. KISS!

Of course now a days we dont use this method and we are using uranium and plutonium in a complete explosion at each other.

gpssonar

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #22, on May 20th, 2013, 03:08 AM »
I understant keep it simple, all i was trying to say to compact all to a small unit to run a vehicel, is very complex and will take time to do it.  

GoldBl4d3

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #23, on May 20th, 2013, 03:22 AM »Last edited on May 20th, 2013, 03:23 AM by GoldBl4d3
Quote from gpssonar on May 20th, 2013, 03:08 AM
I understant keep it simple, all i was trying to say to compact all to a small unit to run a vehicel, is very complex and will take time to do it.
Sure, well dont forget stans time vs our time now. We can compact it all in to one complete circuit board. Also stans circuits are old school. We have technology now. We can simplify everything. Micro processors on a board with everything else so all we gotta do is change the settings via a port. Much like current vehicles and their computers.

Their are a ton of things stan did that can be vastly improved. We now have actual red LEDs vs stans red shell LEDs. We can use higher grades stainless steel, stan used 304. Im not sure why he did, but we can use 316, or even higher grades than that.

You know really I think a lot of people get stuck on this stuff because they want to replicate the past. Instead of learning of the past and designing for the present. Then again everyone who does figure out wants to be rich so their goes all of that and we start over again until another guy figures it out and wants to be rich.

geenee

RE: PROJECT ICARUS
« Reply #24, on May 20th, 2013, 06:03 AM »Last edited on May 20th, 2013, 06:05 AM by geenee
Quote from GoldBl4d3 on May 20th, 2013, 03:22 AM
Quote from gpssonar on May 20th, 2013, 03:08 AM
I understant keep it simple, all i was trying to say to compact all to a small unit to run a vehicel, is very complex and will take time to do it.
Sure, well dont forget stans time vs our time now. We can compact it all in to one complete circuit board. Also stans circuits are old school. We have technology now. We can simplify everything. Micro processors on a board with everything else so all we gotta do is change the settings via a port. Much like current vehicles and their computers.

Their are a ton of things stan did that can be vastly improved. We now have actual red LEDs vs stans red shell LEDs. We can use higher grades stainless steel, stan used 304. Im not sure why he did, but we can use 316, or even higher grades than that.

You know really I think a lot of people get stuck on this stuff because they want to replicate the past. Instead of learning of the past and designing for the present. Then again everyone who does figure out wants to be rich so their goes all of that and we start over again until another guy figures it out and wants to be rich.
wants to be rich then you will be killed by oil company or goverment.real KISS is Daniel Dingel but he didn't tell secret and secret died with him.last version of Meyer use low LPM because plasma spark plug injector and water expansion.

thanks
geenee