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Open - Source - Research => Open-Source Research => Moving Pulsed Systems / Radiant Energy / Tesla => Topic started by: Basti on March 7th, 2019, 02:42 PM

Title: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Basti on March 7th, 2019, 02:42 PM
Hello fellow free(dom) energy researchers.

I assume this is the correct forum for my question/thoughts. In case there is a better place, I'd appreciate if the Admin would move this topic accordingly.

Are you guys aware on the BuieMorin Generator which recently was published by Patrick Kelly?
http://www.free-energy-info.com/BuieMorin.pdf

Quick summary as to what the build is supposed to do (to my current understanding)
PM-Motor pulsed in the kHz range with 400V to reach 3000rpm with an input of approx 0,7kW and enough power to move a Generator/Alternator which will deliver 10 kWh.

The pulses - according to my information - should be gated, otherwise the RPM must be way too high.
The motor used is from Samsung washing machines with "direct drive".

The controller consists of an Arduino Uno and a self to solder strip board, which is relatively easy and cheap to build.
The Arduino code can be found here:
http://www.free-energy-info.com/Arduino.txt

According to the information, the unit IS running and the plans should enable one to rebuild such unit.
I however could not (yet) verify these claims. I also was not able to get a reaction from Thomas Bouie or Gerard Morin by email.
The reason for my interest: It's a relatively simple build.

I am not yet sure how Thomas Buie is exactly working with Gerard Morin. I assume that Thomas must have access (or developed) the controller/driver and Arduino code for the motor, while Gerard wanted/wants to produce controllers/drivers (closed source?) in China and then sell it.

In general I am not yet sure, if this can really work, and how it should work and draw additional engery form weherever, because COP is said to be around 14.

However: I am curious and therefor I use this as my first post in this open source oriented forum.

The questions for you guys:

Attached is a picture of a controller I did put together (which is not yet tested). Waiting on a friend, who currently has it.
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Lynx on March 7th, 2019, 09:41 PM
Hello Basti, welcome to the forum :-)
Many thanks for sharing, I've pinned this for now so I/everyone more easily can find it, gonna check it out when time permits it :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Basti on March 8th, 2019, 08:18 AM
You are welcome. Looking forward to hear some thoughts!
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: kenssurplus on March 8th, 2019, 09:36 AM
Basti,
I also am interested in this claim / device / topic.   I have not dug into the Arduino code to decipher it's inner workings and reasons.  While researching about outrunner motor drivers and such I happened to come across this thread which discusses some interesting possibilities of these type of motors.
Best way to drive a spndle / brushless - eevblog.com (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/best-way-to-drive-a-spindle-brushless-motor-from-a-hdd/msg59166/?PHPSESSID=qa0mr72hp7bff72j56noji6k24#msg59166)
Quote
See here for some eye-opening results from this kind of motor:

http://www.flyelectric.ukgateway.net/motors.htm

Fancy running your optical CD-ROM drive motor at 400 W? Fear not, it is possible. Even 1-2 kW from tiny little brushless motors is possible...  :o

It seems like off-the-shelf drives are used to power these. I don't find much description of the electronics but it seems to be standard RC hobby gear rather than home-build. Like these, for example:

http://www.advantagehobby.com/?cat=362&refine_price=2
Quote
homemade brushless motors - RC groups(https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?37545-home-made-brushless)
Although I was just reading the pertinent pages last night, I cannot remember which page out of the hundred + pages had the points I will discuss here but, I think it is somewhere around page 24.

This RC groups thread discusses pulling outrunner BLDC motors from old cd-rom drives, hard disk drives, etc. to use as model airplane engines.  Their concerns mainly deal with power to weight to speed (rpm) to match propellers for model flight.  They have pulled a dizzying array of different motors out to try them at their hobby. 

They have found that there are differences is numbers of magnet poles, numbers of stator poles, different winding directions and pole orientations, and different sensor placement or back-emf sense configurations, different thicknesses of stator lamination stacks, and different wire guages.  All these differences completely change how you drive the motors, their power, their efficiencies, and their cogging, and / or difficulty in starting, etc.  The one difference that caught my eye was I believe a Sony unit that had for each phase cw-pole, skip, skip, ccw-pole, skip, skip, cw-pole, skip, skip etc.., but that it would leave one pole always in attraction mode while the rest were in repulsion mode.  I think that would have the effect of doubling your active pole faces / active windings (if I can wrap my head around the concepts anyway).

There are apparently can be different numbers of magnet pole faces compared to numbers of stator poles, and this has the effect of a virtual gearbox for various speeds.

I find it interesting that Tomas Buie requires a certain motor (a 36 pole Samsung) unknown number of magnet poles or winding  / magnet configuration.  There is no mention of rewiring the stator as the RC group is doing, so there must be a configuration that produces this same kind of effect straight from the factory.

There is another point brought up in the RC groups thread about half bridge or full bridge control, with pros and cons for each. 

As the above linked thread laments, this gets insanely complex.
There is a book referenced, something about brush-less DC motor concepts and design. I would have to go back through the pages to find its reference.

As to your other questions, I am not sure about any of it.  The only thing I can say is I have tried to replicate some of Morin's tech, with various degrees or levels of partial success, but have been completely discouraged, disheartened and disgusted by some of the earlier communications from, with, about, and concerning Morin, his supporters, fans, and tech. Having said that, each of us has strengths and weaknesses, some of us need an audience, a following, or to be seen as a guru.  Some of us want the fame, or fortune, or power (pun intended) :D.  But despite those possible weakness in any of us, does that make the tech invalid?  So, I am still trying to replicate the tech and see if there is anything to the claims.

According to Patrick Kelley in his South African generator chapter of his book, the Back-EMF pulse is what the free-energy devices are all about and harvesting that efficiently is the key to it all, spinning an alternator or not.

Okay, I guess I have ranted long enough. and need to post this before the post monster devours it.
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Basti on March 8th, 2019, 01:39 PM
Well, that's a bunch of information there about these kinds of motors.

They indeed are very powerful. A buddy of mine has one (of the RC group kind), which has approx. 3inches outside diameter. Very powerful, but power limited by the driver.

However:
To get power, they feed massive power trough the controller. I can not see anything near COP 1 or above with the standard controllers...

Well, let's see if one will/can jump in on the Arduino code, because this shoud be the key to the high COP (if there really is a high COP)...
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Basti on March 27th, 2019, 01:57 PM
Guys, is there nobody who is capable of understanding the Arduino code and talk about it?

I found something which explains the code, but at the same time is a bit disappointing in regards to Buies "invention"...

Update:
I found on
https://simple-circuit.com/arduino-sensorless-bldc-motor-controller-esc/
the EXACT SAME CODE (published early 2018) as publishes as Buies invention (in early 2019) ...

Something does not seem right here, or is it?
What can Buie actually really claim as an invention? How should this driver/circuit be capeable of any "magic"?

Well, I can not get either Buie or Morin to clarify any of my questions. The excuses could be "they are overloaded" with email or "they have been taken by the energy cartel", or something in that regards. But seriously: I did have simple questions which a bunch of beople should have asked too. Since both have a means to publish either trough YouTube or trough Patrick Kelly, one can only assume, why there is no answer...

For now I don't see anything useful here. However: I will be happy to be proven wrong and will gladly admit so, once this happens. Until then I can just say: Eyes open!
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Matt Watts on March 27th, 2019, 07:52 PM
This code(http://www.free-energy-info.com/Arduino.txt) appears to me to be just bit-banging three poles (six steps) around in a circle--as would be expected by a rudimentary 3-phase motor driver.  The only benefit it may have is to drive the motor speed based on the reaction of the back EMF, so that the motor speed closely matches the motor & winding characteristics.

I should add, it's not entirely "sensorless".  Granted it doesn't use hall sensors, but it is reacting to the back EMF that has to be monitored via AD converters.  These inputs have to carefully filtered as to not destroy the waveform, but at the same time the AD input cannot be allowed to exceed the chips ratings.  Things would have to be tuned pretty accurately or the back EMF from each PWM pulse would screw-up the stepping sequence.  This code does utilize interrupts for the analog sensing and does a few tricks to try and avoid false back EMF calculations.

It might actually work pretty well with the proper setup.  Could be worth popping into an Arduino board and see what it does.  I don't see anything too complicated to wire-up.
Quote from Basti on March 27th, 01:57 PM
For now I don't see anything useful here. However: I will be happy to be proven wrong and will gladly admit so, once this happens. Until then I can just say: Eyes open!
I would agree.  It's nothing out of the ordinary.  There are some far more sophisticated 3-phase motor driver systems out there that would probably be more efficient and provide better motor torque.  My first choice for the benchtop would be something from here:  https://kellyev.com/controllers/
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Basti on March 28th, 2019, 12:34 AM
Quote
These inputs have to carefully filtered as to not destroy the waveform, but at the same time the AD input cannot be allowed to exceed the chips ratings.
Thank you for taking the time and thank you for bringing up another point, which I am wondering about too:
The published circuit has a 33k/10k Voltage divider to sense the back EMF. With my understandung there should be applied less than 21V prior the divider, because the divided Voltage then would be very close to the 5V the the Arduino can handle as input... Pretty far off, if the coils are pulsed with around 400V as per the Buie instructions...

So please correct me if I'm wrong, but currently I assume that I the circuit/Arduino would not survive a 400V scenario as per the instructions; or am I missing something here?
Title: Re: BuieMorin (10kW) Generator
Post by: Matt Watts on March 28th, 2019, 01:15 PM
That's what I would predict.

Also keep in mind the voltage spike (back EMF) would climb higher and higher depending upon how rapidly the forward EMF is shut off.  It's still the same energy content there, it just gets compressed in time.  The same concept used in a boost converter is applicable here--faster and higher amplitudes all based on the inductor time constants.