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Open - Source - Research => HHO / Browns Gas / Hydroxy / Stan Meyer => Open-Source Research => Stan Meyer WFC => Topic started by: Alex Petty on December 3rd, 2011, 08:56 AM

Title: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Alex Petty on December 3rd, 2011, 08:56 AM
I and Russ have successfully reproduced the Electrical Polarization Process (EPP) which is the heart and soul of the technology. It is step one of Meyer's overall so-named "Hydrogen Fracturing System". EPP is key because it is the means by which gas is formed from water using almost no power. Using the EPP, water is pulled apart by employing a very strong electrostatic fields which interacts with the polarity of the water molecule itself, in effect electrically winching apart the water molecule. The result is that the bonds holding the O an H together break and then clean fuel gases are released.
The schematics and details of my replication can be seen in this video that I released a few days ago.

http://youtu.be/5kPcZ7fZTS8(http://youtu.be/5kPcZ7fZTS8)

I have been able to replicate this aspect of the technology for quite some time now and have developed real expertise around this. I am happy to help anyone who wishes to know more. Just let me know.

Best,
Alex

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Forum Administrator on December 3rd, 2011, 02:28 PM
AMAZING WORK GUYS!  You are all so incredibly hard working and knowledgeable thanks for bringing all this to light!
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: comdoc on December 3rd, 2011, 03:12 PM
Congratulations!

Brilliant blessings,

Dr. George Soros
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Davecbwfc on December 11th, 2011, 12:25 PM
You should keep in mind that he is not using Stan's vic in this set up. L1 and L2 chokes are missing.


Alex, why were they not included?
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on December 13th, 2011, 02:06 AM
Quote from Davecbwfc on December 11th, 2011, 12:25 PM
You should keep in mind that he is not using Stan's vic in this set up. L1 and L2 chokes are missing.


Alex, why were they not included?
dave, we are implementing the simplest way to prove this works.

we are using just the EMF of the magnetic field collapsing in the coil. most of the time you would see people direct this type of energy in to a Cap or battery. like a Bednin wheel.

just pure EMF. that's the key. it all must be tuned for max gas output but this is just to prove some concepts.

now if you look at stand 8XA box you will see just one coil and one this may be stans steps to the VIC with the chokes???

any way here is the photos and schematics / data from the film. it was kinda small. not sure what happen...

http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/n6fhtd (http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/n6fhtd )

thanks!

~Russ

PS i also attached the files...
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Alex Petty on December 13th, 2011, 02:25 PM
Quote from Davecbwfc on December 11th, 2011, 12:25 PM
You should keep in mind that he is not using Stan's vic in this set up. L1 and L2 chokes are missing.


Alex, why were they not included?
No one is looking at Meyer's EPP correctly. This circuit is arranged to open your eyes. L1 increases the voltage significantly, but only to the Vss side of L1!
That's they key! It's the kV range BEMF pulse associated with L1 field collapse that yields the strong polarity field that effects the water molecule. Adding L2 enhances the effect further. I made this circuit available to teach everyone and give people a means to gain first-hand experience with the basics of this technology!
-Alex Petty
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Sharky on December 16th, 2011, 01:57 AM
Quote from alexander.petty@gmail.com on December 13th, 2011, 02:25 PM
Quote from Davecbwfc on December 11th, 2011, 12:25 PM
You should keep in mind that he is not using Stan's vic in this set up. L1 and L2 chokes are missing.


Alex, why were they not included?
No one is looking at Meyer's EPP correctly. This circuit is arranged to open your eyes. L1 increases the voltage significantly, but only to the Vss side of L1!
That's they key! It's the kV range BEMF pulse associated with L1 field collapse that yields the strong polarity field that effects the water molecule. Adding L2 enhances the effect further. I made this circuit available to teach everyone and give people a means to gain first-hand experience with the basics of this technology!
-Alex Petty
I have spent a lot of time and effort in getting the 8XA and VIC setups to work in the last year. In the end, all results could be traced back to plain electrolysis. So i also concluded i needed to go back to the basic principles behind this technology because simply replicating the Meyer technology seems not to bring forth any big results. When reading over the Meyer and Puharich patents (again ...) i also concluded i needed to get the Electrical Polarization Process right. So when i saw your post i read it with great interest and replicated it right away, however funny how even the simpliest version of a circuit to get the EPP right can raise so many questions ;). Here they are anyway:
- am i correct you use a 10KHz pulse and 50Hz gating frequecy with the 555's?
- are these frequencies choosen with a specific reason in mind or at random?
- what type of diodes are D1 and D2? I found that the D2 i used was not fast enough to switch the 10KHz pulse signal so i only got a 50hz block wave at the mosfet.
- a coil of 680 mH and wfc capacitor of 16.5 nF gives a resonance frequency of 1503 Hz, is this at all important for the EPP? With the 10KHz pulse freq this will not be at resonance will it?
- could you provide waveforms of L1 and C1 when running to check if mine are correct?
- it seems you only have part of your tube cell in the water, is that to ajust your capacitance or do you have an other reason for it?

Thank you for your time ...
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Alex Petty on December 16th, 2011, 04:03 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

- am i correct you use a 10KHz pulse and 50Hz gating frequecy with the 555's?

|alex petty| - 10KHz is often my starting point. I then scan down from there to dial in the resonant frequency. I did account for this with the comment in the video version of the schematic to "adjust C3 to tune to the resonant frequency".
i designed this circuit to allow people the opportunity to gain experience on the core issues relevent to EPP. i think you are asking all of the right questions! my own experience has taught me that the best way to find the resonant frequency is to adjust the pulse frequency and stop at the point where you see the back-spike amplitudes are highest in the scope (rather then relying on calculations, which I have in the past routinely found to disagree with the physical arrangement). another tip (not indicated on the schematic) is that you can increase the BEMF voltages produced by L1 another 30 to 40% by adding an earth ground to your negative rail.
- |alex petty|

- are these frequencies chosen with a specific reason in mind or at random?

|alex petty| - the pulsing frequency is selected as discussed above. the gating frequency should be long enough to allow the DC voltage in C1 to drop to its floor voltage. this will give you a pronounced step charging effect which, according to meyer, yields the maximum agitation to the molecular bonds.- |alex petty|

- what type of diodes are D1 and D2? I found that the D2 i used was not fast enough to switch the 10KHz pulse signal so i only got a 50hz block wave at the mosfet.

|alex petty| - in this particular circuit i am using a couple of PTC205 diodes. a 50Hz pulse should have produced very high back-spikes on L1 (since greater charge flow time leads to a stronger L1 field, which leads to higher BEMF when it collapses), but at 50Hz you would not have driven very many of these pulses into C1. i suspect you saw some slight production with larger bubbles. i have noticed that the higher the pulse frequency, the smaller or finer the gas bubbles produced in the cell. - |alex petty|

- a coil of 680 mH and wfc capacitor of 16.5 nF gives a resonance frequency of 1503 Hz, is this at all important for the EPP?

|alex petty| - resonance is very important to EPP, because it is only at resonance (or within ~10% +/- the resonant frequency) that the BEMF pulses on L1 develop the very high amplitudes that lead to EPP gas production. The amplitudes will be highest right on the resonant frequency but will still be pretty high if within ~10% the left or right of the resonant frequency. Outside of this you will see in your scope the BEMF amplitudes drop significantly. Again, the goal here is to cultivate the highest BEMF possible. I believe that the higher we can stoke these back-spikes, the more gas we will be able to produce.- |alex petty|

- could you provide waveforms of L1 and C1 when running to check if mine are correct?

|alex petty| - the waveform shown in the video is from a probe positioned between Vss L1 and Vss C1, and so the waveform on both components are exactly the same. remember, the BEMF energy is surging away from L1 in the opposite direction as one would normally expect.- |alex petty|

- it seems you only have part of your tube cell in the water, is that to ajust your capacitance or do you have an other reason for it?

|alex petty| - as mentioned in the video, i only filled up the top 25% of the capacitor C1. i did this as a quick way to (1) eliminate the leakage issue and to (2) be able to better measure gas production by volume displacement of the liquid.- |alex petty|

-- 
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Sharky on December 21st, 2011, 07:30 AM
Hi Alex,
I tried to replicate your results but until now without any success. My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:
- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.
- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet
- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

Any tips on how to make the EPP work?
Kind Regards,

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on December 21st, 2011, 09:20 PM
Quote from Sharky on December 21st, 2011, 07:30 AM
Hi Alex,
I tried to replicate your results but until now without any success. My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:
- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.
- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet
- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

Any tips on how to make the EPP work?
Kind Regards,
just a thought, i think the cylindrical tubes make a big difference. also the fact you have leakage around your plate cell may make a difference.  also the distance or gap of the cell will play a big roal. i could not get any results when my gap was big. only a small gap would work for me.  any how we will see what Alex has to say. but those are my thoughts.

~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Alex Petty on December 27th, 2011, 04:08 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

 - My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:

|alex petty| the amplitude of your BEMF is connected to the density (and i believe geometry as well) of the field that forms about your coil during pulse on. when the pulse switches off, the field collapses and you then see a high voltage spike. so, you want to produce a nice dense field. the higher the field density, the higher resulting BEMF voltage upon the field's collapse.  - |alex petty|

- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.

|alex petty| use a closed power system (ie. no wall power). stick to a simple stand alone dc power source (ie. a battery). when pulsing with my lab gear i see, just as you are seeing, (1) the effect on the water is greatly diminished and (2) the peak amplitude of the BEMF is greatly reduced. - |alex petty|

- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet

|alex petty| what do you mean by feeding your mosfet? remember that the source of charge is Vss (ie. the ground) - |alex petty|

- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

|alex petty|  the mosfet presents about a 32kOhms resistance to the BEMF it faces. Before adding the "protective diode", i could measure BEMF voltage on my 555's so I added another diode (ie. another ~32kOhms) which then fully isolated the HV side of the circuit from the waveform management side. - |alex petty|

- Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

|alex petty| yes. it does work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhP3XY8zwSA) but, i like the control of (1) zero leakage and (2) being able to measure rate of liquid displacement over time.  - |alex petty|

- Any tips on how to make the EPP work?

|alex petty| see above. - |alex petty|

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: fredsilva on December 29th, 2011, 02:20 AM
Quote from Davecbwfc on December 11th, 2011, 12:25 PM
You should keep in mind that he is not using Stan's vic in this set up. L1 and L2 chokes are missing.


Alex, why were they not included?
Not necessary that it should be implemented in the same way as it is. They are doing something different and simple.
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: phdk on January 9th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Quote from alexander.petty@gmail.com on December 27th, 2011, 04:08 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

 - My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:

|alex petty| the amplitude of your BEMF is connected to the density (and i believe geometry as well) of the field that forms about your coil during pulse on. when the pulse switches off, the field collapses and you then see a high voltage spike. so, you want to produce a nice dense field. the higher the field density, the higher resulting BEMF voltage upon the field's collapse.  - |alex petty|

- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.

|alex petty| use a closed power system (ie. no wall power). stick to a simple stand alone dc power source (ie. a battery). when pulsing with my lab gear i see, just as you are seeing, (1) the effect on the water is greatly diminished and (2) the peak amplitude of the BEMF is greatly reduced. - |alex petty|

- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet

|alex petty| what do you mean by feeding your mosfet? remember that the source of charge is Vss (ie. the ground) - |alex petty|

- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

|alex petty|  the mosfet presents about a 32kOhms resistance to the BEMF it faces. Before adding the "protective diode", i could measure BEMF voltage on my 555's so I added another diode (ie. another ~32kOhms) which then fully isolated the HV side of the circuit from the waveform management side. - |alex petty|

- Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

|alex petty| yes. it does work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhP3XY8zwSA) but, i like the control of (1) zero leakage and (2) being able to measure rate of liquid displacement over time.  - |alex petty|

- Any tips on how to make the EPP work?

|alex petty| see above. - |alex petty|

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com
Hi, resonant WFC theory.
Not sure if you seen this vid?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjUzsNj8NM
phdk
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on January 9th, 2012, 11:15 PM
Quote from phdk on January 9th, 2012, 12:54 PM
Quote from alexander.petty@gmail.com on December 27th, 2011, 04:08 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

 - My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:

|alex petty| the amplitude of your BEMF is connected to the density (and i believe geometry as well) of the field that forms about your coil during pulse on. when the pulse switches off, the field collapses and you then see a high voltage spike. so, you want to produce a nice dense field. the higher the field density, the higher resulting BEMF voltage upon the field's collapse.  - |alex petty|

- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.

|alex petty| use a closed power system (ie. no wall power). stick to a simple stand alone dc power source (ie. a battery). when pulsing with my lab gear i see, just as you are seeing, (1) the effect on the water is greatly diminished and (2) the peak amplitude of the BEMF is greatly reduced. - |alex petty|

- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet

|alex petty| what do you mean by feeding your mosfet? remember that the source of charge is Vss (ie. the ground) - |alex petty|

- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

|alex petty|  the mosfet presents about a 32kOhms resistance to the BEMF it faces. Before adding the "protective diode", i could measure BEMF voltage on my 555's so I added another diode (ie. another ~32kOhms) which then fully isolated the HV side of the circuit from the waveform management side. - |alex petty|

- Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

|alex petty| yes. it does work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhP3XY8zwSA) but, i like the control of (1) zero leakage and (2) being able to measure rate of liquid displacement over time.  - |alex petty|

- Any tips on how to make the EPP work?

|alex petty| see above. - |alex petty|

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com
Hi, resonant WFC theory.
Not sure if you seen this vid?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKjUzsNj8NM
phdk
make sure you read the comments on this video... some interesting conversations there. and also some change of thoughts. thanks! ~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Matrix on February 3rd, 2012, 08:57 AM
:huh:
just like sharky can't get right results

alex petty wfc pulsing circuit Mod
(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=842)
See my attachment.... no idea if it is ok.........
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: adys15 on February 3rd, 2012, 10:13 AM
replicaton means that you get bursts of gas like stan not 2 bubles that can be optained with the battery and a rezistor alone...make a real replication then post it
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Matrix on February 3rd, 2012, 11:16 AM
PCB has already been completed and tested several times, simulation just speed up debugging, replication still ......... by now .........understanding the process of the water capacitor
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on February 4th, 2012, 12:30 AM
Quote from Matrix on February 3rd, 2012, 11:16 AM
PCB has already been completed and tested several times, simulation just speed up debugging, replication still ......... by now .........understanding the process of the water capacitor
hey MAtrix, also Remember that what we are dealing with some times will not show up in a simulator. so don't trust the sim too much.

any how, good work. ...

~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Matrix on February 4th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Thank you for your contribution to the Meyer's technology.
Agree with you, so my WFC until now only small bubble.However, in my research I found that one more interesting things, radiant energy in the circuit?
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Matrix on February 4th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Thank you for your contribution to the Meyer's technology.
Agree with you, so my WFC until now only small bubble.However, in my research I found that one more interesting things, radiation energy in the circuit?
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: pha3z on March 7th, 2012, 01:13 PM
Quote from Matrix on February 4th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Thank you for your contribution to the Meyer's technology.
Agree with you, so my WFC until now only small bubble.However, in my research I found that one more interesting things, radiation energy in the circuit?
Radient energy manifests when high transients that are primarily unidirectional in nature are utilized.  High Voltage unidirectional capacitor discharges are the easiest way to cause radient energy phenomena to manifest.

Since Stan Meyers circuit uses unidirectal pulses of high amplitude, yes radiant energy effects are likely to manifest.

I just now got on board with all this Meyers stuff in detail.  I read through all his material in detail yesterday and today.  From what I can tell, Meyers never lets on about radient energy or even double energy flow in circuits.  Either he didn't know of the existance of those phonemona or else he kept it to himself since he wanted to the technology to be able to be understood and accepted in modern thinking.

Replicators of Tesla-type OU devices, as well as Tesla researchers, usually claim that aetheric energy (which behaves like a positive particle) flows in opposition to electron flow.  This aetheric energy is supposed to be the real source of electricity.  Electricity is actually the consumption or resistance to this energy.

There is one thing that strikes me about Meyer's own documentation.  In his diagrams showing the way pulsing occurs in the VIC, he shows back-to-back pulses.  Since I have studied transients a lot, I want to point ot something to others here who might be unfamiliar with this.  Back-to-Back pulses have extremely sharp transients -- one falling and one rising in very brief moment of time.  These two transient periods are going to create a wave which is of extremely high frequency and dense energy.  This wave will be much higher frequency than the fundamental frequency of pulsing.  The fundamental frequency is really acting as a carrier.

There is an ambiguation in Meyer's documentation which bothers me.  He repeatedly claims that he is causing the water molecules to resonate but also utilizing circuit resonance.  I am no physicist but I do NOT believe that water molecules resonate in the Khz range.  I find that extremely bizarre.  I would expect water molecules to resonate in Mhz at least (and probably Ghz or Tetrahz) range.  Given that consideration, I will point out the fact that the transient energy between spikes is rich in high frequency harmonics and these harmonics could plausibly induce resonance at extremely higher frequencies than what the fundamental pulses are occuring at.

Now I am only making this theoretical explanation based on all the study I've done and also on the disbelief that water will actually resonate at such low frequencies as used in the VIC.  I could be entirely wrong.  I'm not even a WFC experimenter.  I'm a Tesla experimentor.  But if my theory is true, then its possible that higher gas yields could be obtained by capacitor discharges instead of BEMF coil collapsing.  BEMF Coil collapses won't happen any faster than the coil allows the collapse to occur.  Since capacitors can discharge their energy WAY faster than a coil, you will find much sharper transients with much denser energy explosions.  This would require circuit modification though, and might even turn out to be less productive since it could be harder to engineer.  But Tesla was a master at capacitor discharges.  Look at his patent for Electrical Igntiter - No 609,250.

Another possibility is that the low frequency is inducing a very high order harmonic resonance in the water molecule

Has anyone else got some kind of explanation for Meyer's ambiguation with such low frequency circuits supposedly inducing resonance of water molecule?  Does a water molecule really resonate at such low frequency?.

- Jim
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: adys15 on March 13th, 2012, 09:50 AM
Alex how do you find the resonance like you say you would if in the circuit there is not a single pot.?you varry the water in the cap? or what?
Alex how do you adjust the frequency to get resonance if there is not o single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?
Alex how do you find resonance if the is not a single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?
Quote from alexander.petty@gmail.com on December 27th, 2011, 04:08 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

 - My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:

|alex petty| the amplitude of your BEMF is connected to the density (and i believe geometry as well) of the field that forms about your coil during pulse on. when the pulse switches off, the field collapses and you then see a high voltage spike. so, you want to produce a nice dense field. the higher the field density, the higher resulting BEMF voltage upon the field's collapse.  - |alex petty|

- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.

|alex petty| use a closed power system (ie. no wall power). stick to a simple stand alone dc power source (ie. a battery). when pulsing with my lab gear i see, just as you are seeing, (1) the effect on the water is greatly diminished and (2) the peak amplitude of the BEMF is greatly reduced. - |alex petty|

- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet

|alex petty| what do you mean by feeding your mosfet? remember that the source of charge is Vss (ie. the ground) - |alex petty|

- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

|alex petty|  the mosfet presents about a 32kOhms resistance to the BEMF it faces. Before adding the "protective diode", i could measure BEMF voltage on my 555's so I added another diode (ie. another ~32kOhms) which then fully isolated the HV side of the circuit from the waveform management side. - |alex petty|

- Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

|alex petty| yes. it does work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhP3XY8zwSA) but, i like the control of (1) zero leakage and (2) being able to measure rate of liquid displacement over time.  - |alex petty|

- Any tips on how to make the EPP work?

|alex petty| see above. - |alex petty|

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com
Alex how do you find resonance if the is not a single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on March 14th, 2012, 06:13 AM
Quote from adys15 on March 13th, 2012, 09:50 AM
Alex how do you find the resonance like you say you would if in the circuit there is not a single pot.?you varry the water in the cap? or what?

Alex how do you adjust the frequency to get resonance if there is not o single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?

Alex how do you find resonance if the is not a single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?
Quote from alexander.petty@gmail.com on December 27th, 2011, 04:08 AM
below are your questions answered in the order they were asked:

 - My L1 (400 mH, see image 2) and C1 (25.1 nF, see image 3) values are slightly different but that would only change the resonance frequency (calculated with my values at 1588Hz). I made some changes to the pulse circuit as well since i want to be able to change the pulse frequency:

|alex petty| the amplitude of your BEMF is connected to the density (and i believe geometry as well) of the field that forms about your coil during pulse on. when the pulse switches off, the field collapses and you then see a high voltage spike. so, you want to produce a nice dense field. the higher the field density, the higher resulting BEMF voltage upon the field's collapse.  - |alex petty|

- i replaced your first NE555 with my BitScope wave form generator.

|alex petty| use a closed power system (ie. no wall power). stick to a simple stand alone dc power source (ie. a battery). when pulsing with my lab gear i see, just as you are seeing, (1) the effect on the water is greatly diminished and (2) the peak amplitude of the BEMF is greatly reduced. - |alex petty|

- i use a 7408 AND gate and a 100 ohm resistor to feed my mosfet

|alex petty| what do you mean by feeding your mosfet? remember that the source of charge is Vss (ie. the ground) - |alex petty|

- i left the protecting diode before the mosfet out since it should not be necesarry
These changes result in the pulse train from the first attached image, measuring with my scope i found resonance at 1560 Hz (see image 4). However there are 0 amps drawn from my 12V car battery attached, which is a good result in itself :) but there is also 0 production of gas. I tried a lot of different pulse frequencies but the highest voltage i could achieve at resonance was 155V as you can see from the scope shot.

|alex petty|  the mosfet presents about a 32kOhms resistance to the BEMF it faces. Before adding the "protective diode", i could measure BEMF voltage on my 555's so I added another diode (ie. another ~32kOhms) which then fully isolated the HV side of the circuit from the waveform management side. - |alex petty|

- Can you reproduce your result when the water capacitor is entirely under water as well?

|alex petty| yes. it does work (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhP3XY8zwSA) but, i like the control of (1) zero leakage and (2) being able to measure rate of liquid displacement over time.  - |alex petty|

- Any tips on how to make the EPP work?

|alex petty| see above. - |alex petty|

--
alex petty
office: +001.540.422.0033
mobile: +001.540.272.7970
skype: alex.petty
web: alexpetty.com
Alex how do you find resonance if the is not a single pot in the circuit?you varry the water in the cap or what?
Change the cap in the 555 timer circuit, this is where he was tuning...thanks, ~ Russ
Title: Dan Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: securesupplies on March 15th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Hi I am posting this from You tube
I would be interested in you comment Russ and Alex.
Dan danieldonatelli@hotmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-x3PVi8wF0[/url]

what are the inductance of each coil? i try to replicate.

Jusubbi1 3 months ago
@Jusubbi1 L1 = 1263mH and L2 = 1138mH...I have the coils & resonant cavity measurements on my website GlobalKast(dot)com in the "Documentation" section located at the bottom of the page under my name.
TonyWoodside 2 months ago
What happens is theres a parallel resonance that will occur between the L1 & L2 chokes and this will cause a high impedance to current flow while increasing the magnetic field. I learned this while testing the 8XA circuit. You have a series resonance between the L1 and Cell and then a parallel resonance between L1 & L2 coils.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

How many turns of each coil has in your transformer and how much is your cell capacitance?

-Jusubbi
Jusubbi1 6 months ago

Tony, the resonance between L1 and L2 you should mention it to the distributed capabilities of the turns of the windings?
danielgpalacios 6 months ago
Tony, please excuse my questions if it seems ignorant. I have not built a VIC transformer before. Would the use of Tesla's bifilar coil method on any of the coils on the transformer core be beneficial at magnifying the magnetic field while keeping the induced current low with the blocking diode?
 
Secondly, is the feedback coil with the 5V excitation ALSO utilized as a flux clamping coil on that side of the diode? Does the diode and capacitor create a flux clamping effect reducing current?
 ImJacksAmygdala 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.
TonyWoodside 6 months ago
Title: RE: Dan Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on March 16th, 2012, 03:37 AM
Quote from securesupplies on March 15th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Hi I am posting this from You tube
I would be interested in you comment Russ and Alex.
Dan danieldonatelli@hotmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-x3PVi8wF0[/url]

what are the inductance of each coil? i try to replicate.

Jusubbi1 3 months ago
@Jusubbi1 L1 = 1263mH and L2 = 1138mH...I have the coils & resonant cavity measurements on my website GlobalKast(dot)com in the "Documentation" section located at the bottom of the page under my name.
TonyWoodside 2 months ago
What happens is theres a parallel resonance that will occur between the L1 & L2 chokes and this will cause a high impedance to current flow while increasing the magnetic field. I learned this while testing the 8XA circuit. You have a series resonance between the L1 and Cell and then a parallel resonance between L1 & L2 coils.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

How many turns of each coil has in your transformer and how much is your cell capacitance?

-Jusubbi
Jusubbi1 6 months ago

Tony, the resonance between L1 and L2 you should mention it to the distributed capabilities of the turns of the windings?
danielgpalacios 6 months ago
Tony, please excuse my questions if it seems ignorant. I have not built a VIC transformer before. Would the use of Tesla's bifilar coil method on any of the coils on the transformer core be beneficial at magnifying the magnetic field while keeping the induced current low with the blocking diode?
 
Secondly, is the feedback coil with the 5V excitation ALSO utilized as a flux clamping coil on that side of the diode? Does the diode and capacitor create a flux clamping effect reducing current?
 ImJacksAmygdala 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.
TonyWoodside 6 months ago
well... i haven't the much to say... im still testing, but here you can see all the VIC info,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3580#pid3580(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3580#pid3580)

still working on the core and circuit... once its done, we will be off to answer some of these questions.

also read this:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=3147#pid3147(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=3147#pid3147)

thanks, ~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: securesupplies on March 20th, 2012, 08:18 AM
Very Interesting

thank you for posting your thoughts , it helps alot

Attached for others. to download and print save & keep

PS please look here

stan meyer injector/ ignitor particularly the last posts

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=134


Daniel
Title: RE: Dan Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: securesupplies on March 20th, 2012, 08:23 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on March 16th, 2012, 03:37 AM
Quote from securesupplies on March 15th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Hi I am posting this from You tube
I would be interested in you comment Russ and Alex.
Dan danieldonatelli@hotmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-x3PVi8wF0[/url]

what are the inductance of each coil? i try to replicate.

Jusubbi1 3 months ago
@Jusubbi1 L1 = 1263mH and L2 = 1138mH...I have the coils & resonant cavity measurements on my website GlobalKast(dot)com in the "Documentation" section located at the bottom of the page under my name.
TonyWoodside 2 months ago
What happens is theres a parallel resonance that will occur between the L1 & L2 chokes and this will cause a high impedance to current flow while increasing the magnetic field. I learned this while testing the 8XA circuit. You have a series resonance between the L1 and Cell and then a parallel resonance between L1 & L2 coils.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.

TonyWoodside 6 months ago

How many turns of each coil has in your transformer and how much is your cell capacitance?

-Jusubbi
Jusubbi1 6 months ago

Tony, the resonance between L1 and L2 you should mention it to the distributed capabilities of the turns of the windings?
danielgpalacios 6 months ago
Tony, please excuse my questions if it seems ignorant. I have not built a VIC transformer before. Would the use of Tesla's bifilar coil method on any of the coils on the transformer core be beneficial at magnifying the magnetic field while keeping the induced current low with the blocking diode?
 
Secondly, is the feedback coil with the 5V excitation ALSO utilized as a flux clamping coil on that side of the diode? Does the diode and capacitor create a flux clamping effect reducing current?
 ImJacksAmygdala 6 months ago

2.5khz is just the frequency the LC circuit resonants at...Its also the same frequency that Stan says it should be.
TonyWoodside 6 months ago
well... i haven't the much to say... im still testing, but here you can see all the VIC info,

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3580#pid3580(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3580#pid3580)

still working on the core and circuit... once its done, we will be off to answer some of these questions.

also read this:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=3147#pid3147(http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311&pid=3147#pid3147)

thanks, ~Russ
Thank you Russ ,

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: freethisone on March 25th, 2012, 01:12 PM
hi Russ all. I found a patent that would help trouble shoot problems with the light cavity.
Not sure if you have seen this one..
It has some useful  information that may help..

Cheers :cool:
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Sirgoose on March 28th, 2012, 09:55 PM
Great Job, keep on doing what your doing!
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 10th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Hello everybody

I'm new here.I tested circuit(gatepulseLC) on multisim11.the result that i dont understand is Vrms between L and C that have 10kv+ but V or Vdc not much than 5V because i use 5 v from clock signal voltage source. I think this voltage from capacitor is the talk from stanley meyer(he say 20KV+).Or this Voltage from multisim ERROR?

i attach pic and multisim11file that can test it and someone know why Vrms rise KV?

i no good in english im sorry about that

thank alot all
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 11th, 2012, 12:50 AM
this another LCL gate pulse circuit

voltage rise infinity (-E-) on picture and program ERROR(time too small???)

look the pic i attach and i attach multisim11file to test by yourself

thank alot all
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on April 11th, 2012, 01:22 AM
Quote from geenee on April 10th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Hello everybody

I'm new here.I tested circuit(gatepulseLC) on multisim11.the result that i dont understand is Vrms between L and C that have 10kv+ but V or Vdc not much than 5V because i use 5 v from clock signal voltage source. I think this voltage from capacitor is the talk from stanley meyer(he say 20KV+).Or this Voltage from multisim ERROR?

i attach pic and multisim11file that can test it and someone know why Vrms rise KV?

i no good in english im sorry about that

thank alot all
good work, and i cant answer your question, but i can say that the simulator will allays be differently than real life. the sim cant do things that we are trying to do. the sim is trying to simulate something that it can not do... its good for reference but not always for this type of testing... just thought i would throw that out there.

thanks! ~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Webmug on April 11th, 2012, 07:06 AM
Hi,

What I understand:

We can not do full VIC circuit simulations because it's an "open system".
All circuit simulations have "ground" GND reference and are based on "closed systems".

Look at the VIC transformer, there are no "ground" or GND connections and it is a "open system". There are magnetic interactions from the coils and core. Also the water capacitor is an "open system".

Only the pulsed primary input coil has "ground" or GND and this is called a "closed system".

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 11th, 2012, 08:22 PM
Thanks Russ and Webmug

i just thought to simulate EPP on multisim11 because it's the best program and the result is nearly same real circuit .i think.
Meyer use simple principles.and simulation program can test the theory of Meyer.

in real circuit i can't measure C from watercapacitor that i use.i use cheap capacitor meter to measure capacitance
my dry cell(13plates-nn+...) have 8000 uF(test buy minipa MC153 i think it's ERROR) and another multimeter(Victor9805a) have result 8uF(200uF range) 3uF(20uF range)

i confused about the result. from Capacitance result i test pulse with 7 H choke, 2H choke.the lowtest frequency is 64 hz(calculate from 2H and 3uF) and test it in LC series.No resonant any way cause Voltage across water capacitor no more than input voltage(about 2-3V).

i search by step up from low range FQ(1HZ) to high FQ(200khz) square wave 20-70% duty cycle on my pll circuit
i think if Voltage higher than input then resonance frequency can work.but it's not. or it's not work because i dont put blocking diode? i use voltage from pll signal output(2-3V).

anyway my question is

1.blocking diode is the most important for rise KV on watercapacitor? what the best model?20kv model available?
2.how to restrict amp (in another word stop electron from negative excitor move to very very high positive exciter)?if rise KV range then can have a spark between excitor pass through the water    

thanks all friends
geenee
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 12th, 2012, 07:33 PM
REF EPP's image  i attached

Notice

-amps meter up to 100 amps??? mean it uses a huge of amps?

-EPP uses only pulse freq.gate freq is another version(Electron Extraction Process from Hydrogen Fracturing Process)

-EPP has 2 versions( EPP(variac) and Crossover EPP(motor and alternator))

this image is first EPP

i think EPP not much gas enough. meyer upgraded to HFC because Electron Extraction Process is the key to kill liberate electron from Oxygen and Oxygen go to unstable state unable to bond with Hydrogen

Do u think the same?



Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on April 12th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Quote from geenee on April 12th, 2012, 07:33 PM
REF EPP's image  i attached

Notice

-amps meter up to 100 amps??? mean it uses a huge of amps?

-EPP uses only pulse freq.gate freq is another version(Electron Extraction Process)

-EPP has 2 versions( EPP(variac) and Crossover EPP(motor and alternator))

this image is first EPP

i think EPP not much gas enough. meyer upgraded to EEP because Electron Extraction Process is the key to kill liberate electron from Oxygen and Oxygen go to unstable state unable to bond with Hydrogen

Do u think the same?
i can agree to what your saying! yes. ~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 14th, 2012, 03:10 AM
Thanks Russ

Just 50 cents i have a little knowledge.
Something i misunderstand. i need all friend to suggest me.

i attend about electron work.i think electronic education teach wrong understanding to student like "battery positive side electric go to light and go to negative side of battery" (exam this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gvJzrjwjds) this wrong cause free electron(from high negative ion) go to high positive ion / electron energize electricity. The right word is "negative side battery to positive side battery" positive ion is  
atom like oxygen have 8 proton but have electron less than proton(8) like 7 6 5 4 3 2 this positive ion. proton cant move because is big. only electron move(this exam about metal like copper iron).  

Something like that make student misunderstand and misunderstand all about relation knowledge.

All explain things that go to one point to understand Electrical Polarization Process

if you have very very high positive side then you have very very high push away positive ion and very very high attach negative ion BUT very high negative side(high electron side) can't attach proton(proton very bigger than electron)  just positive side is important

but positive side induction opposite side to have very very much electron act like negative side and attach positive ion from water bath. negative side can neutral by lose electron easily cause electron is smallest.

this knowledge conclude : to make very very high positive side why??
- upper reason
how???
- high voltage cause high positive atom which lose many electrons(high positive ion or high positive electrostatic) this stan use LC circuit to make infinity voltage
how restrict amps???cause high volt is high electron move very fast cause high Power consumption(Watts)
- i dont know???????

i know just...... to make high positive side
i think diode(why stan use diode very high amps (100+amps) cause front side of diode(between diode and secondary coil) have many electron try to back positive side(after diode to positive exciter)) is the key to stop electron back positive side cause after diode still have high positive atom(positive electrostatic)when gate time(power off) and next power on it can add very very high positive continue all the time(resonant=modulate 2+ waves) and after diode is very very very high positive by resonant and diode cause high positive electrostatic.This positive side is key to elongate far enough to break bond and hydrogen have unstable state and lose electron by to very high positive side.same the oxygen attach positive side lose electron to very high positive side after that oxygen go to neutral or positive then positive side push away oxygen out.

this way to know way use thin copper wire cause High Voltage. why low current???if same power like v=12 i=1 p=12w if 12w use 20000 volts amps=0.0006 amps it never require very big copper wire.why use ss430fr??? it hard to melt than copper.i think this just 50 cent . do u think?

exam about high volt low current and low volt high current  u think like car and road
high volt like super fast car /low volt is slow car
the same rule is "transport 10 cars to destination vary number of lane .how to finish the same time?"
10 fast cars use 1 lane(low amps thin wire) exam this finish in 1 hour
10 slow car use 10 lane(high amps big wire)finish in 1 hour too
electron is a car then high volt ->electron fast use thin wire/low volt ->electron slow use big wire    

sorry about language i'm from Thailand
thanks all friend

geenee


 

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Gunther Rattay on April 14th, 2012, 10:43 AM
@webmug
that's not the reason. simulation always needs a (fictive) GND to make the calculations. that's not too bad.
bad is that there is no fitting simulation model for the water capacitor and no model for the VIC.
but there is hope: once you have figured out the operational behavior you can add a working model.
there is no way to go but by experiments ...
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Webmug on April 14th, 2012, 11:09 AM
Quote from bussi04 on April 14th, 2012, 10:43 AM
@webmug
that's not the reason. simulation always needs a (fictive) GND to make the calculations. that's not too bad.
bad is that there is no fitting simulation model for the water capacitor and no model for the VIC.
but there is hope: once you have figured out the operational behavior you can add a working model.
there is no way to go but by experiments ...
Yes, experiments are the way.

What I think: (read from here to the last post, I have posted a scope shot)
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170&pid=3818#pid3818

Best thing I can think of how to simulate it, is the attached circuit model from Stan and couple the magnetic core to the inductors.

Br,
Webmug

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 19th, 2012, 01:18 AM
to webmug

i test simulation in multisim 10 and 11

on matrix circuit(webmug's pic) to test by youself

i think it like step charging diagram from meyer

thanks

geenee
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on April 24th, 2012, 03:57 AM
Quote from securesupplies on April 21st, 2012, 02:12 PM
please comment on this one so we know if correct for this section.
all of those are diagrams are for the injector...

~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Badger on April 24th, 2012, 08:51 AM
Quote from pha3z on March 7th, 2012, 01:13 PM
There is an ambiguation in Meyer's documentation which bothers me.  He repeatedly claims that he is causing the water molecules to resonate but also utilizing circuit resonance.  I am no physicist but I do NOT believe that water molecules resonate in the Khz range.  I find that extremely bizarre.  I would expect water molecules to resonate in Mhz at least (and probably Ghz or Tetrahz) range.  Given that consideration, I will point out the fact that the transient energy between spikes is rich in high frequency harmonics and these harmonics could plausibly induce resonance at extremely higher frequencies than what the fundamental pulses are occuring at.

Now I am only making this theoretical explanation based on all the study I've done and also on the disbelief that water will actually resonate at such low frequencies as used in the VIC.  I could be entirely wrong.  I'm not even a WFC experimenter.  I'm a Tesla experimentor.  But if my theory is true, then its possible that higher gas yields could be obtained by capacitor discharges instead of BEMF coil collapsing.  BEMF Coil collapses won't happen any faster than the coil allows the collapse to occur.  Since capacitors can discharge their energy WAY faster than a coil, you will find much sharper transients with much denser energy explosions.  This would require circuit modification though, and might even turn out to be less productive since it could be harder to engineer.  But Tesla was a master at capacitor discharges.  Look at his patent for Electrical Igntiter - No 609,250.

Another possibility is that the low frequency is inducing a very high order harmonic resonance in the water molecule

Has anyone else got some kind of explanation for Meyer's ambiguation with such low frequency circuits supposedly inducing resonance of water molecule?  Does a water molecule really resonate at such low frequency?.

- Jim
I'm new here and just learning, but I too am wondering about the resonant frequency of water.  The first thing that came to mind, for me, is microwave ovens, which operate at around 2.4 GHz, but I haven't found anyone using a pulse frequency anywhere near that.  Watching that SM video showing his scanning device, you could hear most of the range of the scan, so that's maxing out around 18K?  I read you can still resonate molecules at 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th the natural frequency, so maybe that it the goal to keep the frequency lower to save on losses.
???
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 25th, 2012, 11:59 AM
i thinks resonant is best performance on input volts(highest at that volts)

all volts(high or low volts) have resonant but not mean high LPM output

5volt has resonant (if resonant it has best performance at 5 volts)

30KV has resonant too

but high electromagnetic field or high electrostatic force can make HIGH LPM HHO

how to make high electromagnetic force or field ? HV only /resonant is the way to best performance at that volts

how much volts to high electromagnetic force?
100KV or 1MV ?? i dont know because i'm not success in HV .when you have power supply 10kv and put in to water voltage across water will drop to less than that like i test 800V volts across water drop to 0.3volts

resonant = best performance at that volts

key is high volts 30KV or 100KV or 1MV

just 50 cent

thanks geenee
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on April 25th, 2012, 01:10 PM
i think it is not necessary for resonant

 nearly resonant it can work if it has HV enough

thanks geenee
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Webmug on April 25th, 2012, 01:38 PM
Hi,

Yes resonance must be maintained but when we connect high voltage to the WFC, voltage will drop to 1-2V (current flow).
What is needed is to restrict current flow through the WFC POS NEG exciters.
This is where the chokes come into play, restricting current with the help of coils magnetic field.

This is theory, of course :cool:

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: andy on May 28th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from kenterprise on May 22nd, 2012, 01:20 AM
Hi, everyone!
I'm new on this forum but on others I posted about protolysis, electrical polarization of water.
2H2O - voltage = H3O+ and OH-.
This happen if not use an electrolyte and is no ionic current flow.
Water protolysis, ionization. No current, only voltage, low power ( considering inherent looses ).
Water electrolysis mean flow of electrons, current, power consumption.
Considering that I designed and build several prototypes of a ordinary series electrolytic cells  - so call dry cell HHO -  but add a second anode in the re-circulation tank.
This second anode form a large capacitor ( distance to ground is large enough to confer a resistance even in case of electrolyte ).
The cells now are filled with OH- instead of H2O and the tank with H3O+.
The capacitor discharge to cells ( reducing the power supply current  ) and the working liquid have larger Oxy-Reduction potential.
That mean more gas at low current.
I not studied Meyers work in details since I think is  complicated - perhaps  in order to encode  the information's - but the principle is the same.
Looks like not not need extreme voltage, precise frequencies range ...is all about the  system design and not a 'magic frequency".
Indeed a switch between the anodes will charge the capacitor and then discharge it on OH - rich and very low current will be required to produce more Hydrogen than -apparently- Faraday predicted.
Beside, that gas is not the fuel and can't be used alone on close loop engine without further modifications or settings.
Nitrogen is required to make the mixture a fuel as well. Flammability, burning speed, expansion that create the pressure to push the piston etc.
But I think that is the way: proto-electrolysis as sequences of processes to release enough Hydrogen from water to sustain a ICE with water as fuel.
HI kenterprise
Thank for sharing your results.
Can You post schematic of the circuit and how You connected  and drive the switch between the anodes? Can you give information where you posted about protolysis?
Good work!!
thank
andy

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: sniperam on May 28th, 2012, 05:38 PM
Hello everyone,
 
It's my first post here but I had been working in HHO for 2 years. After many tries that failed I understand a lot of things in the electrical field by the way I am a mechanical engineer! I attached the pic of my wfc. Here are my constatation:
 
To have a high voltage in the wfc we have to restric the current. Indeed the tubes sould be insulated. The exterior of the inner tube should be covered with a dielectric (for example white coating likes Ravii).Thus the current has no choice but to pass among the gap. In other words, we want to create an electric arc between the tubes.  
Look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=getKcN4tfwk
Notice the first 5 sec and 14 to 21 sec (HHO Bubble??? or Hot Water???)
 
SnipeRam
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: sniperam on May 29th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Hello

Everyone should read this article: Here(http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=discharge%20electric%20water&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CF4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipp.cas.cz%2FIps%2Fpublic%2Flukes_2008b.pdf&ei=g_HET6awG6Hi0QG-6cywCg&usg=AFQjCNFRX86yXE9syN9YXe1Bb9mLnFUplA) ;)

Sniperam
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: securesupplies on May 29th, 2012, 10:54 PM
thank you nice post
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on May 30th, 2012, 03:25 AM
Quote from sniperam on May 29th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Hello

Everyone should read this article: Here(http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=discharge%20electric%20water&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CF4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipp.cas.cz%2FIps%2Fpublic%2Flukes_2008b.pdf&ei=g_HET6awG6Hi0QG-6cywCg&usg=AFQjCNFRX86yXE9syN9YXe1Bb9mLnFUplA) ;)

Sniperam
very interesting.

attached PDF in case link got broke:
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Sharky on May 30th, 2012, 03:56 AM
Quote from sniperam on May 29th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Hello

Everyone should read this article: Here(http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=discharge%20electric%20water&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CF4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipp.cas.cz%2FIps%2Fpublic%2Flukes_2008b.pdf&ei=g_HET6awG6Hi0QG-6cywCg&usg=AFQjCNFRX86yXE9syN9YXe1Bb9mLnFUplA) ;)

Sniperam
Very interesting indeed, looks like the Andrija Puharich device in which he also applied a porous ceramic ....
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Jeff Nading on May 30th, 2012, 08:35 AM
Quote from Sharky on May 30th, 2012, 03:56 AM
Quote from sniperam on May 29th, 2012, 09:13 AM
Hello

Everyone should read this article: Here(http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=discharge%20electric%20water&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CF4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipp.cas.cz%2FIps%2Fpublic%2Flukes_2008b.pdf&ei=g_HET6awG6Hi0QG-6cywCg&usg=AFQjCNFRX86yXE9syN9YXe1Bb9mLnFUplA) ;)

Sniperam
Very interesting indeed, looks like the Andrija Puharich device in which he also applied a porous ceramic ....
Good info.:cool::D:P
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: kcrawford on May 30th, 2012, 05:52 PM
I am just an electrical engineer but from my understanding in a tank circuit  resonance occurs when the reactance of the capacitor and the inductor are equal. Which from my understanding the fuel cell changes based on water, distilled, tap, rain, temp, and many other varibles, which wound mean that the inductor in the tank circuit must vary to match the resonance, but i have not dove deep enought into the circuit , which is what i thought was meant by resonance of the circuit, and the frequencies that are being fed by the vic circuit and 555 timers are those that excite the water best. I thought that also the coil within a coil is how you can affect the inductor value, i have seen this with a circle metallic core, however i assume with that the same holds true with the plastice insulator used with the other coil inside. My question is how to measure the fuel cell on the fly and match the coil to it to produce tank resonance. i was thinking some sort of calibrate when circuit starts,measure the cell then matching the coil offset, however this doesnt take in to account for temperature change and catalyst if added assuming the water is consisant and the level is maintened above the cell, so either all factors must have some sensors and adjustment or measure yeild and adjust the tank resonance. Someone please tell me if my understanding is way off.
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: ~Russ on May 30th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Quote from kcrawford on May 30th, 2012, 05:52 PM
I am just an electrical engineer but from my understanding in a tank circuit  resonance occurs when the reactance of the capacitor and the inductor are equal. Which from my understanding the fuel cell changes based on water, distilled, tap, rain, temp, and many other varibles, which wound mean that the inductor in the tank circuit must vary to match the resonance, but i have not dove deep enought into the circuit , which is what i thought was meant by resonance of the circuit, and the frequencies that are being fed by the vic circuit and 555 timers are those that excite the water best. I thought that also the coil within a coil is how you can affect the inductor value, i have seen this with a circle metallic core, however i assume with that the same holds true with the plastice insulator used with the other coil inside. My question is how to measure the fuel cell on the fly and match the coil to it to produce tank resonance. i was thinking some sort of calibrate when circuit starts,measure the cell then matching the coil offset, however this doesnt take in to account for temperature change and catalyst if added assuming the water is consisant and the level is maintened above the cell, so either all factors must have some sensors and adjustment or measure yeild and adjust the tank resonance. Someone please tell me if my understanding is way off.
hello!

first, no catalyst should be used. we want amp restriction.

i think you have some good thoughts ! i think there are some miss understood things about stans system, i think we all need to start thinking on the level of the water molecule and not so much on the tank circuit its self...  

as we know, we can magnetically and electrically " flex" the water molecule. this is one of the keys in my mind.

if we can get the coil set to resonate with its internal capacitance then we can get the highest voltage out of the coil yes? then apply that to the cell to help the " flex" of the water...

any way just some thoughts...

kcrawford,

check some of this data out...:

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=311

http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=170

those threads may help? and you may be able to help there! :)

Blessings! ~Russ
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: kcrawford on May 31st, 2012, 06:20 AM
i hope im not posting in wrong place but i would like someone to bash my thoughts here so I can travel down a different path if there are huge holes in my thought processes.
Well I was thinking about the issues with the gas processing in the epg. I have seen the attempts to make magnetic fluids and gasses so I did some research and really found more info that I ever thought I wanted to know most of which can be found in these two  articles.
http://www.i-b-r.org/ir00020b.htm#3.4.B.

http://www.i-b-r.org/docs/ijhe2002.pdf

I think the magnetic gas and liquid that Stanley Meyers was probably working a magnecule substance in nature. In the articles both magnetic liquid and gas are studied for many different reasons. The science that is talked about in the articles is HADRONIC MECHANICS which to me seems to fill in the blanks where quantum physics can’t explain, which is only about 2% of molecular bonds. Using a high magnetic field applied to liquids can produce magneH and magneO as well as magneCO and CO2, which has been altered enough to not even register as know elements. These high fields , lets say above 8 T, have been created in labs with magnets that can maintain  that field, however you can measure 10 T fields around arcs of high voltage. Which some people are starting to try to use however I think stan figured this out a long time ago. I think in stans injectors we are no longer dealing with a fuel cell with eltralysis going on , but instead it is now become a plasma arc reactor with the creation of mangeH and mangeO with a few traces of gases produces by the carbon based electrodes used to make the arc. This process takes extremely high voltages when conducting for waste management, however here water purification is not the point but gas extraction is. So the spray of the jet can manage the voltage needed as well as the current being pulled throught the vapor. I think when I was studing this process I came across several keys factors that lead me to believe this. One when talking of magnecules of H and O they actually have different densities and have different amounts of energy. There are magnecules of H that are found to be 7 times more dense. One of the current problems with HHO gas is that there is only like 300 btu per gallon which requires much more volume storage than can possible be stored on a vehicle, gm and some car companies are using cryogenics to cool the H down to liquid form and reduce storage this way however using plasma arc reactors the new magneH is much more dense thus requires less storage as well as releasing much more energy when combusted, which I still don’t believe is the way to go on demand is still much better. I think mangegas is what stanley was using in his epg and what was being created with his injector
Please when you read I don’t think stanley was wrong in any way I just think that he was creating magnegas instead of electoized HHO gas which is why everything he did worked, just the science is finially catching up with him as far as explaining why it worked and what was actually going on.
I think the injector or as love to call it, one hell of a plasma arc reactor, would then be key just as everyone is thinking to unlocking the technology in many different ways. The epg  as well as the voltage intensifier circuit is important to effeciantly creating the voltage needed to create the spark gap. I also saw a little video clip where the gas was applied to a lit cigarette and didn’t ignite but with a spark ignited, which makes the gas more stable in my opion.

Little note i came across as well , the technology that they use for the worlds strongest magnets, the coils they actually use copper plates cut in circles then split in spot opened like a spirel staircase and insulator between each plate to make a super dense field. I think this method might be easier and actually make a more dense field that when collapsing may make some huge spikes, and maybe help effeciancy of the epg and coils in the vic maybe.
Please comment with any thoughts
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: FloatyBoaty on May 31st, 2012, 11:59 AM
Quote from ~Russ/Rwg42985 on May 30th, 2012, 11:33 PM
i think there are some miss understood things about stans system, i think we all need to start thinking on the level of the water molecule and not so much on the tank circuit its self...  

as we know, we can magnetically and electrically " flex" the water molecule. this is one of the keys in my mind.

if we can get the coil set to resonate with its internal capacitance then we can get the highest voltage out of the coil yes? then apply that to the cell to help the " flex" of the water...
Reminds me of what John Hutchison was working on.  High frequencies - "the Hutchison Effect".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJYce3I8OE
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Quantum on June 11th, 2012, 10:52 AM
Check out the pages 10 and 11, it describes how the charging of water takes place.

http://www.electrostatics.org/images/I1.pdf

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Hydron on June 11th, 2012, 12:44 PM
I think Stan used a bit of rather strange and vague verbage, or verbiage, depending how you look at it, in retrospect to what the rest of the world had already established a name for, such as... "Voltage Intensifier" would correlate to a step-up transformer with the addition of a magnetic ballast. "Leakage" is his way of saying electrolysis. I can count several instances in any document of Stan's where he reinvents the wheel under a new name.

"The Polarization Process", for example, is one of those names that means so little, but, yet  describes exactly what he is talking about. What is it that is getting polarized, the water? No, water is already a polar molecule and the addition of an electrical field will only strengthen the hydrogen bonds with polar alignment. I would assume what is being polarized is the oxygen and hydrogen. Which, in essence, is what the rest of the world calls positively charging(ionizing) gases. These gases are more powerful than when they are in there stable diatomic state. What I mean when I say "more powerful", I am speaking in terms of more heat produced by the reaction.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15115795/Graneau-Paper-on-Water-Explosions
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 11th, 2012, 03:13 PM
Quote from Hydron on June 11th, 2012, 12:44 PM
I think Stan used a bit of rather strange and vague verbage, or verbiage, depending how you look at it, in retrospect to what the rest of the world had already established a name for, such as... "Voltage Intensifier" would correlate to a step-up transformer with the addition of a magnetic ballast. "Leakage" is his way of saying electrolysis. I can count several instances in any document of Stan's where he reinvents the wheel under a new name.

"The Polarization Process", for example, is one of those names that means so little, but, yet  describes exactly what he is talking about. What is it that is getting polarized, the water? No, water is already a polar molecule and the addition of an electrical field will only strengthen the hydrogen bonds with polar alignment. I would assume what is being polarized is the oxygen and hydrogen. Which, in essence, is what the rest of the world calls positively charging(ionizing) gases. These gases are more powerful than when they are in there stable diatomic state. What I mean when I say "more powerful", I am speaking in terms of more heat produced by the reaction.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15115795/Graneau-Paper-on-Water-Explosions
Hello Hydron, I think you and Terry are on the same path, you might want to collaborate, here,
 http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=573
thanks, Jeff.:D
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: geenee on June 11th, 2012, 04:48 PM
Do you know about "Dead shot condition"?

Stan say NEED MORE VOLTAGE(across cell voltage) but electrolysis voltage drop, can't rise up.

real magic water is good dielectric.70MV/Meter=70kv/mm dielectric strength mean good better than air or better than plastic.
this way water USE IN HIGH VOLTAGE CAPACITOR. WATER that i say is 100% WATER no contamination.

you should distill a water by you self. and test charge water capacitor minimum 110V to 1000V to 20KV.if it no leak voltage then it work.

i think i figured out all.and need more testing.
see also this http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=563

geenee
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Webmug on June 12th, 2012, 04:41 AM
Hi,

Stan explains (multiple and multiple times in all his lectures) when you restrict the amps (EPP), the water molecules will take on a electrical charge if you pulse voltage on it (no coating on the exciters).

Making use of the "dielectric properties of water" between two exciters you make the water a part of the electronic circuit as a (water)capacitor and connect (resonant) chokes to both sides and tune into it (LC resonance) to restrict the amps (collapsing the magnetic fields of the chokes) to "choke of" the amp flow and let voltage take over (charge the water molecule).

The water between the exciters, when not using chokes (restricting the amps) is a dead-short condition, water molecule will not take a charge! (only max. 2 Volts) and is 180 out of phase as the electrolysis process which is a dead short condition.

So by using magnetic field and resonance we restrict amps (and we overcome the dead short condition).

Higher "unipolar" pulse voltage (amplitude) and at the same time restricting the amp flow we charge the water molecule even further.

Br,
Webmug
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 12th, 2012, 06:10 AM
Quote from Webmug on June 12th, 2012, 04:41 AM
Hi,

Stan explains (multiple and multiple times in all his lectures) when you restrict the amps (EPP), the water molecules will take on a electrical charge if you pulse voltage on it (no coating on the exciters).

Making use of the "dielectric properties of water" between two exciters you make the water a part of the electronic circuit as a (water)capacitor and connect (resonant) chokes to both sides and tune into it (LC resonance) to restrict the amps (collapsing the magnetic fields of the chokes) to "choke of" the amp flow and let voltage take over (charge the water molecule).

The water between the exciters, when not using chokes (restricting the amps) is a dead-short condition, water molecule will not take a charge! (only max. 2 Volts) and is 180 out of phase as the electrolysis process which is a dead short condition.

So by using magnetic field and resonance we restrict amps (and we overcome the dead short condition).

Higher "unipolar" pulse voltage (amplitude) and at the same time restricting the amp flow we charge the water molecule even further.

Br,
Webmug
This does make prefect since to me, because higher amperage's is what causes the dead short condition, so restricting the amps as you have stated, using the chokes, will let the water charge.:cool::D:P
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Ravenous Emu on June 12th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Maybe, here's another way of looking at the same thing.... (let me know what you guys think.)
What if you had two, really big, electromagnets and one side was positive and the other negative?

Would that behave any different than an LC circuit?
If so, how so?

Another thought... The one patent that stan uses for a power supply. (I don't remember which one off the top of my head.)
He used resistors in series with the capacitor.

My question would be...
How would a "power resistor" behave connected to a capacitor (in series)?
it would dissipate that current as heat... but, would voltage be the same across the capacitor?

PS. I'm trying to educate myself on some of this stuff.  I've got a bunch of text books that I'm reading through. Sometimes I think my head is gonna explode from information overload. :D
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Sharky on June 13th, 2012, 12:42 AM
Quote from Ravenous Emu on June 12th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Maybe, here's another way of looking at the same thing.... (let me know what you guys think.)
What if you had two, really big, electromagnets and one side was positive and the other negative?

Would that behave any different than an LC circuit?
If so, how so?

Another thought... The one patent that stan uses for a power supply. (I don't remember which one off the top of my head.)
He used resistors in series with the capacitor.

My question would be...
How would a "power resistor" behave connected to a capacitor (in series)?
it would dissipate that current as heat... but, would voltage be the same across the capacitor?

PS. I'm trying to educate myself on some of this stuff.  I've got a bunch of text books that I'm reading through. Sometimes I think my head is gonna explode from information overload. :D
Welcome to the club ;) , ... information overload is a common problem among WFC researchers, there is no other cure than to stop which is not an option for most of us :cool:

Connecting a resistor in series with a capacitor will behave very different then connecting a coil. A coil is capable of storing energy through its magnetic field while a resistor will disipate the energy through heat. So the coil stores energy during pulses and releases the energy to the (water)capacitor during pulse off time, since the blocking diode is there it will create a step charging effect because the energy being inputted has only one way to go and that is to the capacitor. So the capacitor also stores energy but that is through an electric field instead of magnetic field.

Keep reading, learning and asking, ... we need as much brillant minds in here as posible ...
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Amsy on June 13th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Hello everyone,

I´m new in the forum and I want to introduce myself. My name is Andy, and i´m from Europe. I´m studying on Stanley Meyer WFC and Watercar secret and patents for 2 and a half year and also made many basic tests with coaxial stainless steel pipes (WFC).
Maybe I can help a little bit with some electrotechnical problems. You will notice, that English ist not my native language. ;)

The first thing I want to say is, that the webside of russ is very impressive. Also watched the videos. :)

One of my first tests was to find out the conductivity of different watertypes. The result was like Stanley Meyer descriped in the patents and videos. Different watertypes have different "pollution" in it. So the conductivity is direct related to the "pollution" of the water because of the ions. Ions cause elektrolysis. The "best" water for the polarization Process therefor is pure water (distilled water) to minimize the amp leakage.
e.g. I measured for Tap water in my little tube cell (~4 inch long, ~1 inch dia) a resistance of 5ohms ("Measuring" by calculating the R=Voltage/current). The water will cause a "dead short" condition to every secondary side of a transformer (i tested it). The voltage dropped from 900V in idle state to 2V. The result was electrolyses.

The second test I made was to inhibit the amperage to prevent elektrolyses. There are some options to do this. My first was with a heat resistor. It worked very good. Also it it can be calculated, that when a resistor is in series with the wfc, a normal voltage divider is built. The amperage is defined of the overall resistance and the the voltage input. (normal electrotechnical calculation)

So that is very important, because a coil is also a resistor (but frequency based).
And when pulsing, the resistor of the coil can be very high. And the amperage also droppes to prevent electrolyses (that works very good, I tested it few times).

Then I tried this with a power transformer (toroid) to get this on the secondary of the transformer. It worked very good, and the voltage rises very high on the secondary side (~800Volts) with very little amperage input on the primary. The voltage drop over the WFC tube was 0.9V and the Input was ~800Volts. So the voltage divider worked! :)

Until here, this all have nothing to do with "resonance". It is only a few basic tests i made. I never found a frequency where resonance occure between the coil and the wfc. :dodgy: So I begin to study resonace circuits. One thing is very important. The L and the C can not build a resonace circuit because of the diode. Also the simulation programs can not make a series resonance circuit with the diode. (My operating experience for my tests).
Because in a series resonance circuit it is a must that the the capacitor can discharge over the coil.  :dodgy:

Also it is very important to notice, what Stanley Meyer is telling us, by using the word "resonance". In the patents, there are many discreptions about this "state".
In the Memos, e.g. it is descripted as a state of maximum gas yield and strong ionisation of the water molecul (chapter of VIC Matrix...). In a other patent I read, that this a state in which the current drops dramatically. I never heard, that in a series resonance circuit, the current drops at frequency close to resonance. This will happen in a parallel resonance circuit. Thats also a important fact.

I hope I can help a little bit at your research and maybe you have a question about electrotechical circuits, I can try to answer it. :blush:

CU


Sorry 4 my bad english :)

Still correcting my post....

 
 

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: FloatyBoaty on June 13th, 2012, 01:22 PM
Quote from Amsy on June 13th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Hello everyone,

I´m new in the forum and I want to introduce myself. My name is Andy, and i´m from Europe. I´m studying on Stanley Meyer WFC and Watercar secret and patents for 2 and a half year and also made many basic tests with coaxial stainless steel pipes (WFC).
Maybe I can help a little bit with some electrotechnical problems. You will notice, that English ist not my native language. ;)

The first thing I want to say is, that the webside of russ is very impressive. Also watched the videos. :)

One of my first tests was to find out the conductivity of different watertypes. The result was like Stanley Meyer descriped in the patents and videos. Different watertypes have different "pollution" in it. So the conductivity is direct related to the "pollution" of the water because of the ions. Ions cause elektrolysis. The "best" water for the polarization Process therefor is pure water (distilled water) to minimize the amp leakage.
e.g. I measured for Tap water in my little tube cell (~4 inch long, ~1 inch dia) a resistance of 5ohms ("Measuring" by calculating the R=Voltage/current). The water will cause a short dead condition to every secondary side of a transformer (i tested it). The voltage dropped from 900V in idle state to 2V. The result was electrolyses.

The second test I made was to inhibit the amperage to prevent elektrolyses. There are some options to do this. My first was with a heat resistor. It worked very good. Also it it can be calculated, that when a resistor is in series with the wfc, a normal voltage divider is built. The amperage is defined of the overall resistance and the the voltage input. (normal electrotechnical calculation)

So that is very important, because a coil is also a resistor (but frequency based).
And when pulsing, the resistor of the coil can be very high. And the amperage also droppes to prevent electrolyses (that works very good, I tested it few times).

Then I tried this with a power transformer (toroid) to get this on the secondary of the transformer. It worked very good, and the voltage rises very high on the secondary side (~800Volts) with very little amperage input on the primary. The voltage drop over the WFC tube was 0.9V and the Input was ~800Volts. So the voltage divider worked! :)

Until here, this all have nothing to do with "resonance". It is only a few basic tests i made. I never found a frequency where resonance occure between the coil and the wfc. :dodgy: So I begin to study resonace circuits. One thing is very important. The L and the C can not build a resonace circuit because of the diode. Also the simulation programs can not make a series resonance circuit with the diode.
Because in a series resonance circuit it is a must that the the capacitor can discharge over the coil.  :dodgy:

Also it is very important to notice, what Stanley Meyer is telling us, by using the word "resonance". In the patents, there are many discreptions about this "state".
In the Memos, e.g. it is descripted as a state of maximum gas yield and strong ionisation of the water molecul (chapter of VIC Matrix...). In a other patent I read, that this a state in which the current drops dramatically. I never heard, that in a series resonance circuit, the current drops at frequency close to resonance. This will happen in a parallel resonance circuit. Thats also a importnant fact.

I hope I can help a little bit at your research and maybe you have a question about electrotechical circuits, I can try to answer it. :blush:

CU


Sorry 4 my bad english :)
Hello, and welcome.

Nice run down of what you have been doing!  Hope to hear more from you.  :)
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 13th, 2012, 01:22 PM
Quote from Amsy on June 13th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Hello everyone,

I´m new in the forum and I want to introduce myself. My name is Andy, and i´m from Europe. I´m studying on Stanley Meyer WFC and Watercar secret and patents for 2 and a half year and also made many basic tests with coaxial stainless steel pipes (WFC).
Maybe I can help a little bit with some electrotechnical problems. You will notice, that English ist not my native language. ;)

The first thing I want to say is, that the webside of russ is very impressive. Also watched the videos. :)

One of my first tests was to find out the conductivity of different watertypes. The result was like Stanley Meyer descriped in the patents and videos. Different watertypes have different "pollution" in it. So the conductivity is direct related to the "pollution" of the water because of the ions. Ions cause elektrolysis. The "best" water for the polarization Process therefor is pure water (distilled water) to minimize the amp leakage.
e.g. I measured for Tap water in my little tube cell (~4 inch long, ~1 inch dia) a resistance of 5ohms ("Measuring" by calculating the R=Voltage/current). The water will cause a short dead condition to every secondary side of a transformer (i tested it). The voltage dropped from 900V in idle state to 2V. The result was electrolyses.

The second test I made was to inhibit the amperage to prevent elektrolyses. There are some options to do this. My first was with a heat resistor. It worked very good. Also it it can be calculated, that when a resistor is in series with the wfc, a normal voltage divider is built. The amperage is defined of the overall resistance and the the voltage input. (normal electrotechnical calculation)

So that is very important, because a coil is also a resistor (but frequency based).
And when pulsing, the resistor of the coil can be very high. And the amperage also droppes to prevent electrolyses (that works very good, I tested it few times).

Then I tried this with a power transformer (toroid) to get this on the secondary of the transformer. It worked very good, and the voltage rises very high on the secondary side (~800Volts) with very little amperage input on the primary. The voltage drop over the WFC tube was 0.9V and the Input was ~800Volts. So the voltage divider worked! :)

Until here, this all have nothing to do with "resonance". It is only a few basic tests i made. I never found a frequency where resonance occure between the coil and the wfc. :dodgy: So I begin to study resonace circuits. One thing is very important. The L and the C can not build a resonace circuit because of the diode. Also the simulation programs can not make a series resonance circuit with the diode.
Because in a series resonance circuit it is a must that the the capacitor can discharge over the coil.  :dodgy:

Also it is very important to notice, what Stanley Meyer is telling us, by using the word "resonance". In the patents, there are many discreptions about this "state".
In the Memos, e.g. it is descripted as a state of maximum gas yield and strong ionisation of the water molecul (chapter of VIC Matrix...). In a other patent I read, that this a state in which the current drops dramatically. I never heard, that in a series resonance circuit, the current drops at frequency close to resonance. This will happen in a parallel resonance circuit. Thats also a importnant fact.

I hope I can help a little bit at your research and maybe you have a question about electrotechical circuits, I can try to answer it. :blush:

CU


Sorry 4 my bad english :)
Your english is good Andy, and the results of your test are even better, Thanks.:D
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Davecbwfc on June 13th, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on June 13th, 2012, 01:22 PM
Quote from Amsy on June 13th, 2012, 01:05 PM
Hello everyone,

I´m new in the forum and I want to introduce myself. My name is Andy, and i´m from Europe. I´m studying on Stanley Meyer WFC and Watercar secret and patents for 2 and a half year and also made many basic tests with coaxial stainless steel pipes (WFC).
Maybe I can help a little bit with some electrotechnical problems. You will notice, that English ist not my native language. ;)

The first thing I want to say is, that the webside of russ is very impressive. Also watched the videos. :)

One of my first tests was to find out the conductivity of different watertypes. The result was like Stanley Meyer descriped in the patents and videos. Different watertypes have different "pollution" in it. So the conductivity is direct related to the "pollution" of the water because of the ions. Ions cause elektrolysis. The "best" water for the polarization Process therefor is pure water (distilled water) to minimize the amp leakage.
e.g. I measured for Tap water in my little tube cell (~4 inch long, ~1 inch dia) a resistance of 5ohms ("Measuring" by calculating the R=Voltage/current). The water will cause a short dead condition to every secondary side of a transformer (i tested it). The voltage dropped from 900V in idle state to 2V. The result was electrolyses.

The second test I made was to inhibit the amperage to prevent elektrolyses. There are some options to do this. My first was with a heat resistor. It worked very good. Also it it can be calculated, that when a resistor is in series with the wfc, a normal voltage divider is built. The amperage is defined of the overall resistance and the the voltage input. (normal electrotechnical calculation)

So that is very important, because a coil is also a resistor (but frequency based).
And when pulsing, the resistor of the coil can be very high. And the amperage also droppes to prevent electrolyses (that works very good, I tested it few times).

Then I tried this with a power transformer (toroid) to get this on the secondary of the transformer. It worked very good, and the voltage rises very high on the secondary side (~800Volts) with very little amperage input on the primary. The voltage drop over the WFC tube was 0.9V and the Input was ~800Volts. So the voltage divider worked! :)

Until here, this all have nothing to do with "resonance". It is only a few basic tests i made. I never found a frequency where resonance occure between the coil and the wfc. :dodgy: So I begin to study resonace circuits. One thing is very important. The L and the C can not build a resonace circuit because of the diode. Also the simulation programs can not make a series resonance circuit with the diode.
Because in a series resonance circuit it is a must that the the capacitor can discharge over the coil.  :dodgy:

Also it is very important to notice, what Stanley Meyer is telling us, by using the word "resonance". In the patents, there are many discreptions about this "state".
In the Memos, e.g. it is descripted as a state of maximum gas yield and strong ionisation of the water molecul (chapter of VIC Matrix...). In a other patent I read, that this a state in which the current drops dramatically. I never heard, that in a series resonance circuit, the current drops at frequency close to resonance. This will happen in a parallel resonance circuit. Thats also a importnant fact.

I hope I can help a little bit at your research and maybe you have a question about electrotechical circuits, I can try to answer it. :blush:

CU


Sorry 4 my bad english :)
Your english is good Andy, and the results of your test are even better, Thanks.:D
I would just like to say, it sound like you guys are on the right direction. The other thing I would like to say is either we are missing something or this system will not work. At least in theory. hopefully someone stumbles upon it. Anyway, if you restrict amp flow with chokes you can build voltage potential. I have seen over 500 volts across my cell with my vic. The problem is that you can't just ionize water with 500 volts or 1000 volts or 5000 volts. H20 needs a much higher voltage potential to ionize. Buy and read high voltage breakdown of water. We need 20k to ionize water. From this I can conclude that either our vic's are missing something huge or we need to look deep into quantum physics to find the answer.

Andy, sound like you have been learning a lot! The biggest difference between the a coil and a resistor is that we can block current with inductive reactance which does't create power lose through heat. As far as the series resonance that is obstructed by the diode; true resonance is not their but you can still increase the voltage. The circuit locks into the primary or secondary resonance anyway. not the series lc resonance. Don, the man how had the real equipment found this out.
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: FloatyBoaty on June 13th, 2012, 09:29 PM
Quote from Davecbwfc on June 13th, 2012, 08:26 PM
I would just like to say, it sound like you guys are on the right direction. The other thing I would like to say is either we are missing something or this system will not work. At least in theory. hopefully someone stumbles upon it. Anyway, if you restrict amp flow with chokes you can build voltage potential. I have seen over 500 volts across my cell with my vic. The problem is that you can't just ionize water with 500 volts or 1000 volts or 5000 volts. H20 needs a much higher voltage potential to ionize. Buy and read high voltage breakdown of water. We need 20k to ionize water. From this I can conclude that either our vic's are missing something huge or we need to look deep into quantum physics to find the answer.

Andy, sound like you have been learning a lot! The biggest difference between the a coil and a resistor is that we can block current with inductive reactance which does't create power lose through heat. As far as the series resonance that is obstructed by the diode; true resonance is not their but you can still increase the voltage. The circuit locks into the primary or secondary resonance anyway. not the series lc resonance. Don, the man how had the real equipment found this out.
We could take some ideas from Tesla - high frequency, high "current" (he didn't use voltage/amperage terms)
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 13th, 2012, 11:40 PM
Quote from Davecbwfc on June 13th, 2012, 08:26 PM
...
I have seen over 500 volts across my cell with my vic. The problem is that you can't just ionize water with 500 volts or 1000 volts or 5000 volts. H20 needs a much higher voltage potential to ionize. Buy and read high voltage breakdown of water. We need 20k to ionize water.
...
Interesting!

Where did you get this information 20 kV from? And what do you mean by "Buy and read high voltage breakdown of water" ? Do you have a link to a specific document?
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: sniperam on June 14th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hello,

If you looking for a DIY Variable High Voltage Power Supply up to 50 kV here(http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Variable-High-Voltage-Power-Supply/)

Sniperam
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Amsy on June 14th, 2012, 07:41 AM
Thank you all for your "welcoming words" :)

I also want to share with you my latest test I made 4 weeks ago (my best so far). I want to do this, because, I was able to produce a "strong" electrical/voltage field in my Coax tube and around the tube. Maybe this can by the "first step" in the direction of water fracturing....but I don´t know exactly.

I used a toroid with two secondary coils (same inductivity) and one primary coil. (Step-up setup).
The two secondarys where connected together like the Charging Chokes int the VIC (but without an "Main"secondary). I put the diode between them. The first coil was not similar wrapped like the second one (direction of wrapping). So the setup on the secondary was: First Coil->WFC->Second Coil->Diode->First Coil

With this setup I was able to produce 1,5kV peaks measured on the first coil @ 1.5 Amps on the primary. The amperage on secondary was 600µA. No electrolyses, but also no other reactions in the WFC. So one of the induktivitys worked as a resistor. The pulsing frequency was 11kHz, but also 9kHz or something worked.
To be sure, that there is a elecrical field in the tube WFC i took a phase controller with a little neon lamp (bulb). Because the neon begins to glow when the voltage is bigger than ~100V (Ionisable gas inside). I was able to detect a voltage field around my WFC (Pics in the attachment: 1. Off state of the circuit, 2. ON state of the circuit, measured outside of the water, 3. ON state of the circuit, measured inside of the water).

Unfortunately, the isolation in the toroid windigs beginn to breakdown and the windigs made a dead short because of the high voltage. :-/
Maybe this can help a little bit to understand the "voltage field" and how it can be created without electrolyses. For me it was a new experience. :)
Quote from Davecbwfc on June 13th, 2012, 08:26 PM
Quote from Jeff Nading on June 13th, 2012, 01:22 PM
Your english is good Andy, and the results of your test are even better, Thanks.:D
I would just like to say, it sound like you guys are on the right direction. The other thing I would like to say is either we are missing something or this system will not work. At least in theory. hopefully someone stumbles upon it. Anyway, if you restrict amp flow with chokes you can build voltage potential. I have seen over 500 volts across my cell with my vic. The problem is that you can't just ionize water with 500 volts or 1000 volts or 5000 volts. H20 needs a much higher voltage potential to ionize. Buy and read high voltage breakdown of water. We need 20k to ionize water. From this I can conclude that either our vic's are missing something huge or we need to look deep into quantum physics to find the answer.

Andy, sound like you have been learning a lot! The biggest difference between the a coil and a resistor is that we can block current with inductive reactance which does't create power lose through heat. As far as the series resonance that is obstructed by the diode; true resonance is not their but you can still increase the voltage. The circuit locks into the primary or secondary resonance anyway. not the series lc resonance. Don, the man how had the real equipment found this out.
Yes, this "step by step" building the circuit was very interesting. Also for me, it is not clear in the moment, at which voltage the reaction begins and if the frequency used is a crucial factor. As you said, maybe it is 20kV (Stanley Meyer writed this very often). The easiest way to produce such voltages is a flyback transformer or a spark coil. But the voltage on a secondary will only rise up when there is a big resistor in the circuit (like a spark gap or a big inductivity). So Ross´s video of the comparison between the VIC and the flyback transformer can be an important thing....

The voltage is generated by the secondary main coil and the first charging choke like in a flyback transformer. Also an air gap is in the magnetic core of the VIC (Ross´s video with the two magnetic core U-profiles).
Maybe the big resistor to rise the voltage potential what Stanley Meyer was using is the secondary charging choke because of the different wrap-direction it could not work as a voltage supply, so it only could work as a resistor (like in my test with the toroid).

Also flyback transformers are frequency controlles with help of the "pick up" coil to generate the best voltage.
One important thing is also, that mayer used a "frequency scanner" to look in the "right" frequency. In a video you can hear, that this frequencys are in a range of low audio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ub6cmuj-fwU  (27:40)  Maybe 0-10kHz.

Maybe this considerations can help a little bit. :shy:

Greetings





Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Jeff Nading on June 14th, 2012, 08:26 AM
Quote from sniperam on June 14th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hello,

If you looking for a DIY Variable High Voltage Power Supply up to 50 kV here(http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Variable-High-Voltage-Power-Supply/)

Sniperam
Is there any way you can post the complete build and give them credit for it, rather than us having to join another forum? this would be a good build, just don't have the time for another forum, thanks.:D
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Davecbwfc on June 14th, 2012, 09:44 AM
Quote from Jeff Nading on June 14th, 2012, 08:26 AM
Quote from sniperam on June 14th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Hello,

If you looking for a DIY Variable High Voltage Power Supply up to 50 kV here(http://www.instructables.com/id/Build-a-Variable-High-Voltage-Power-Supply/)

Sniperam
Is there any way you can post the complete build and give them credit for it, rather than us having to join another forum? this would be a good build, just don't have the time for another forum, thanks.:D
http://www.amazon.com/High-Voltage-Electrical-Breakdown-Water-Kristiansen/dp/1934939005/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339680841&sr=1-2


That is the link for the book I was talking about. It's research done by the university of Texas to improve upon water capacitors. It maybe not be worth it to some of you but I like some of the info.

Jeff is correct, you can't just apply a 50,000 volt power source and expect to see that across the cell. The more voltage you apply, the harder it will be to build voltage potential across the cell. If current is flowing through the cell, it's not acting like a capacitor. As far as stan's electronics. He did have a phase lock loop to lock into resoance as well as a scanning circuit to scan through the frequency bandwidth and find resonance. I have a replication of these circuits

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Ravenous Emu on June 14th, 2012, 10:20 AM
Quote from Sharky on June 13th, 2012, 12:42 AM
A coil is capable of storing energy through its magnetic field while a resistor will disipate the energy through heat....So the capacitor also stores energy but that is through an electric field instead of magnetic field.

Keep reading, learning and asking, ... we need as much brillant minds in here as posible ...
I'm just gonna throw ideas at you guys. :D
Well, lets just say you used the resistor instead of the Inductor...
What if you used it to heat the water? Kinda like using an electric stove to boil water. (by the way, I know that stan had a "steam resonator"... but I'm not concerned about that yet.)

I do know, that in an RC Circuit, the amount of resistance determines how fast the capacitor charges.  

This is a website I've found a long time ago.  It helps explain "DC Resonant Charging".  http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html#resonant

Which, essentially, verifies every thing you said. :D

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Davecbwfc on June 14th, 2012, 11:53 AM
Quote from Ravenous Emu on June 14th, 2012, 10:20 AM
Quote from Sharky on June 13th, 2012, 12:42 AM
A coil is capable of storing energy through its magnetic field while a resistor will disipate the energy through heat....So the capacitor also stores energy but that is through an electric field instead of magnetic field.

Keep reading, learning and asking, ... we need as much brillant minds in here as posible ...
I'm just gonna throw ideas at you guys. :D
Well, lets just say you used the resistor instead of the Inductor...
What if you used it to heat the water? Kinda like using an electric stove to boil water. (by the way, I know that stan had a "steam resonator"... but I'm not concerned about that yet.)

I do know, that in an RC Circuit, the amount of resistance determines how fast the capacitor charges.  

This is a website I've found a long time ago.  It helps explain "DC Resonant Charging".  http://www.richieburnett.co.uk/dcreschg.html#resonant

Which, essentially, verifies every thing you said. :D
If you use a resistor, your using power. Inductive reactance and parralel resonance do not consume power in the form of heat which is why they are used.
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Ravenous Emu on June 14th, 2012, 08:19 PM
Well, I'm back to the books...
(Again, my head is gonna explode from Information Overload. :D:P)

Sharky:
[So the coil stores energy during pulses and releases the energy to the (water)capacitor during pulse off time, since the blocking diode is there it will create a step charging effect because the energy being inputted has only one way to go and that is to the capacitor. So the capacitor also stores energy but that is through an electric field instead of magnetic field.]

I'm no Electrical Engineer, but I'm doing my best to understand the electronics.
So, this "step charging" is when the 50% duty cycle is ended... Because, with the diode, you get that second pulse as the inductor "releases" it's stored energy. (is this correct?)

What  I did notice in that article I linked to was that...
First:
"The inductance of the charging reactor has controlled the rate at which our tank capacitor charged from the DC supply in a similar way to charging through a series resistor. However the inductor stores and releases energy that the series resistor wastes as heat. Where the resistive charging circuit is only 50% efficient due to power dissipation in the early part of the charging cycle, the inductive charging circuit stores this energy and uses it to charge the capacitor to twice the voltage. Current limiting and voltage doubling at the same time !
It is also highly desirable that the charging current falls to zero around the time that the spark gap is meant to fire. This greatly reduces the likelihood of power arcing or "trailing arcs" in the rotary spark gap due to a high DC current."

Second:
"[The Diode] However... prevents the inductor current from changing direction and halts the resonant process when the capacitor is at twice the supply voltage."

Basically, what I've gathered from this info is that...
1) As the Inductor's Magnetic Field collapses, it...
2) Forces the current into the Capacitor, which...
3) Charges the Capacitor to a higher voltage and decreases the current it sees, because...
4) When the magnetic field collapses... you've used up all the available energy in the magnetic field.

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: andy on June 15th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Hi to all.
On the RWG research 10 month ago was thread " Some science added to the work of Stanley Meyer"  and now not exist. In this thread h2opower wrote ansver about why all replica of vic not worked. ( alternate power swich not in use!). Maybe some of you have saved this thread on your hard disc and can share it ?
thank for ansver
sorry for english
andy
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Quote from andy on June 15th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Hi to all.
On the RWG research 10 month ago was thread " Some science added to the work of Stanley Meyer"  and now not exist. In this thread h2opower wrote ansver about why all replica of vic not worked. ( alternate power swich not in use!). Maybe some of you have saved this thread on your hard disc and can share it ?
thank for ansver
sorry for english
andy
h2opower is no longer a member of this forum. He left the forum because his company http://www.truegreensolutions.net was not welcome by the forum group and he didn´t get any support for his company to bring out this technology.

you can follow the discussion at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=242&pid=2138#pid2138 .

the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174

enjoy![/quote]
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: andy on June 16th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from bussi04 on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Quote from andy on June 15th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Hi to all.
On the RWG research 10 month ago was thread " Some science added to the work of Stanley Meyer"  and now not exist. In this thread h2opower wrote ansver about why all replica of vic not worked. ( alternate power swich not in use!). Maybe some of you have saved this thread on your hard disc and can share it ?
thank for ansver
sorry for english
andy
h2opower is no longer a member of this forum. He left the forum because his company http://www.truegreensolutions.net was not welcome by the forum group and he didn´t get any support for his company to bring out this technology.

you can follow the discussion at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=242&pid=2138#pid2138 .

the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174

enjoy!
Bussi04
Thank you for ansver and info. I see , you are active user of the hereticalbuilders's forum. Can you help me in registration to this forum?
I was tried to register two time , and send e-mails to administrator - no luck.
It's wery interesing forum - alot of the info is there.
thank for ansver
andy

Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 16th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Quote from andy on June 16th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from bussi04 on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Quote from andy on June 15th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Hi to all.
On the RWG research 10 month ago was thread " Some science added to the work of Stanley Meyer"  and now not exist. In this thread h2opower wrote ansver about why all replica of vic not worked. ( alternate power swich not in use!). Maybe some of you have saved this thread on your hard disc and can share it ?
thank for ansver
sorry for english
andy
h2opower is no longer a member of this forum. He left the forum because his company http://www.truegreensolutions.net was not welcome by the forum group and he didn´t get any support for his company to bring out this technology.

you can follow the discussion at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=242&pid=2138#pid2138 .

the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174

enjoy!
Bussi04
Thank you for ansver and info. I see , you are active user of the hereticalbuilders's forum. Can you help me in registration to this forum?
I was tried to register two time , and send e-mails to administrator - no luck.
It's wery interesing forum - alot of the info is there.
thank for ansver
andy
Done!
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: andy on June 16th, 2012, 11:21 PM
Bussi04
I want register to heretical builders forum. Is it possible?
Don't understand your ansver.
andy
Bussi04
I want register to heretical builders forum. Is it possible?
Don't understand your ansver.
andy
Quote from bussi04 on June 16th, 2012, 11:00 PM
Quote from andy on June 16th, 2012, 01:52 PM
Quote from bussi04 on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
Quote from andy on June 15th, 2012, 02:07 AM
Hi to all.
On the RWG research 10 month ago was thread " Some science added to the work of Stanley Meyer"  and now not exist. In this thread h2opower wrote ansver about why all replica of vic not worked. ( alternate power swich not in use!). Maybe some of you have saved this thread on your hard disc and can share it ?
thank for ansver
sorry for english
andy
h2opower is no longer a member of this forum. He left the forum because his company http://www.truegreensolutions.net was not welcome by the forum group and he didn´t get any support for his company to bring out this technology.

you can follow the discussion at http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=242&pid=2138#pid2138 .

the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174

enjoy!
Bussi04
Thank you for ansver and info. I see , you are active user of the hereticalbuilders's forum. Can you help me in registration to this forum?
I was tried to register two time , and send e-mails to administrator - no luck.
It's wery interesing forum - alot of the info is there.
thank for ansver
andy
Done!
Bussi04
I want register to heretical builders forum. Is it possible?
Don't understand your ansver.
andy
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: Quantum on June 17th, 2012, 03:08 AM
Quote from bussi04 on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174
I would suggest to read this forum too because it has an interesting discussion about making a fuel mixture from air and water, getting ammonia (NH3) and nitrous oxide (N2O) which are very reactive.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5247-ionization-water-fuel.html


"Mixtures of ammonia and air burn very slowly and
in many situations are considered to be nonflammable, but mixtures of NH3 and N2O appear to react much more rapidly. The reaction mechanism of NH3 and N2O is particularly uncertain. "
http://www2.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/publications/reprints/flimits.pdf


Title: Nitrogen obfuscation doesn´t fit into Stan Meyer´s technology
Post by: Gunther Rattay on June 18th, 2012, 01:45 AM
Quote from Quantum on June 17th, 2012, 03:08 AM
Quote from bussi04 on June 15th, 2012, 04:03 PM
the information you are looking for you can find at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showthread.php?t=174
I would suggest to read this forum too because it has an interesting discussion about making a fuel mixture from air and water, getting ammonia (NH3) and nitrous oxide (N2O) which are very reactive.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5247-ionization-water-fuel.html


"Mixtures of ammonia and air burn very slowly and
in many situations are considered to be nonflammable, but mixtures of NH3 and N2O appear to react much more rapidly. The reaction mechanism of NH3 and N2O is particularly uncertain. "
http://www2.galcit.caltech.edu/EDL/publications/reprints/flimits.pdf
Quantum,

the Nitrogen discussion at energeticforum from years ago  I was involved in was an obscuring dead end discussion! it was risen by the forum owners to down the well doing Stan Meyer thread there. And they succeeded!

so it makes no sense to go the Nitrogen way in this forum. Stop! Wrong way!

To check the numbers please look at h2opower´s easy to follow calculations at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showpost.php?p=1633&postcount=57 .


Quote from andy on June 16th, 2012, 11:21 PM
Bussi04
I want register to heretical builders forum. Is it possible?
Don't understand your ansver.
andy
I sent you a Private Message how to go on. Did you receive it?

Please use further PM to get that straight.

No need to fill this thread with administrative stuff :-)


Title: RE: Nitrogen obfuscation doesn´t fit into Stan Meyer´s technology
Post by: Quantum on June 19th, 2012, 05:28 AM
Quote from bussi04 on June 18th, 2012, 01:45 AM
Quantum,

the Nitrogen discussion at energeticforum from years ago  I was involved in was an obscuring dead end discussion! it was risen by the forum owners to down the well doing Stan Meyer thread there. And they succeeded!

so it makes no sense to go the Nitrogen way in this forum. Stop! Wrong way!

To check the numbers please look at h2opower´s easy to follow calculations at http://www.hereticalbuilders.com/showpost.php?p=1633&postcount=57 .
Ok thx for warning. Just trying to see all the possibilities. I'm following water for fuel development since 2006 and but only this year have started to build something starting with Air Ionizer (positive corona discharge in a tube that is GND, steel middle wire is positive, non-thermal plasma from flyback and UV and RED Power LED's that effect mostly Oxygen electrons but also Nitrogen in order to behave as electron collector slowing down the burning in the chamber?), Gas Processor ( negative voltage on outer tube and insulated middle wire GND) to polarize negatively the 100°C acidic water vapor or rain water.

So as I understand the gas processor will react on water clusters and pull out the positive ones to the negative not insulated tube including the stripped off H+ atoms and by giving them electron, atomic hydrogen H will form emitting photons and also negatively charged water clusters will form. When two H meet they will form H2. There will be also in the mix OH-, and negatively charged water clusters.

These will be mixed with air, coming out from the air processor. The opposite polarity particles will attract each other and the positive O and N will wait for an amount of time before they collect their electrons. The cooled exhaust gases will be mixed also. In the engine this will be pressurized and exposed to high temperature from the previous cycle This could make some reactions and forming some other molecules. The plasma of the spark will dissociate some the H2 molecule into H and the positive nitrogen and oxygen will start to collect its electrons. The electrons will be collected from OH- and negatively charged water clusters and this will dissociate them into its elements what will be burned. Because there is a lot of nitrogen in there, by collecting its electrons it delays the formation of the water molecule by slowing down the explosion. I believe the engine will use the energy when the water steam expands too, like a steam engine.

So is this the right way? :huh:
This makes any sense?

I have a small 4 cycle engine on what i will be testing.
After if this fails I will mix in to the system some HHO too.
Title: RE: Electrical Polarization Process
Post by: adys15 on November 12th, 2012, 01:33 PM
Anyone managed to replicate Alex's circuit with  the 9v batery?i did not.