open-source-energy.org
Open - Source - Research => Open-Source Ideas => Topic started by: Ravenous Emu on October 17th, 2012, 09:00 PM
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Here is a very simple idea/concept for some one to try and implement.
What if...
I had a Geothermal Heat Pump / Ground Source Heat Pump...
That...
was hooked up to a Low Temperature Differential (LTD) Stirling Engine...
That...
was hooked up to an electrical generator?
Let me know what you guys think.
My Reasoning
1) Under the ground there is ,typically, a constant temperature.
2) Above the ground it's usually warmer/cooler than under ground (depends on time of year.)
3) Stirling Engines operate using temperature differences
4) Hook up an electrical generator to the Stirling Engine.
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Good plan - why not set up a couple of mirrors to track the sun and heat the ground with concentrated reflection, ramp up the temperature differential a bit more for a small amount of energy used positioning the mirrors.
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As heat pumps already are over unity, I'm curious of why no one has let the heat derived from the pump drive some
engine, why not a Sterling engine then, which in turn drives an alternator, which in turn then powers the heat pump?
Sure, during winter, and so on, when the COP (Coefficient of Performance) isn't so big, or even less than 1, well then
there's nothing to be gained from all this.
However, as soon as the COP is greater than 1, then all the "extra" energy derived from the process would be a pure
gain, providing free heat (or electricity) to your home :cool:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
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Good plan - why not set up a couple of mirrors to track the sun and heat the ground with concentrated reflection, ramp up the temperature differential a bit more for a small amount of energy used positioning the mirrors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzhzeA4VRSc&feature=related
As heat pumps already are over unity
There are ways to make it more "Efficient" but I wouldn't go so far as to claim Over Unity.
What I was thinking... when you get the Stirling engine to power the generator/alternator, tap whatever you need to keep the Heat Pump running and the rest is useful for what ever you need.
This scenario isn't "Over Unity". However, it uses a portion of the electricity to keep it self running. Much like an engine runs on it's own after you start it.
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As heat pumps already are over unity
There are ways to make it more "Efficient" but I wouldn't go so far as to claim Over Unity.
What I was thinking... when you get the Stirling engine to power the generator/alternator, tap whatever you need to keep the Heat Pump running and the rest is useful for what ever you need.
This scenario isn't "Over Unity". However, it uses a portion of the electricity to keep it self running. Much like an engine runs on it's own after you start it.
for example the ground by using the thermodynamic heat pump cycle,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump_and_refrigeration_cycle
However, facts remain, which is that if your heat pump setup has an overall
coefficient of performance of let's say 3, which isn't at all unusual, that then in
turn means that for every KW of electric power you put in to the system you get
3 KW of heat out of the process, which is why I call it over unity, which it really
isn't, as it merely "steals" the energy already stored in the ground.
I just read about the relatively low efficiency grade of the Sterling engine when
it comes to letting it power an alternator for example, it was in the range of 20%
or even less.
I'm more curious as to what a Tesla bladeless turbine engine could have to offer
if you were to let the upstream of the refrigerant pass through the Tesla engine
just before it comes back to the heat exchanger in your heat pump.
If the heat pump takes let's for arguments sake say 1 KW of electric power to
operate and that the COP is 3 on a good day, that then means that you'd get
3 KW of heat out of your heat pump system to heat up your water, home, etc.
If you then were to put a Tesla turbine engine the way I just described, then
as such an engine has anything up to 90% of effiecency grade and an alternator
has about say 90% effiecency grade you would take away some 1.3 KW of heat
coming up from the ground in order to get 1 KW of electric effect out from the
alternator to power the heat pump.
The rest 1.7 KW could then be used to heat up your water etc at virtually no cost
at all except for maintenance costs of the heat pump system itself.
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Hello Ravenous Emu,
That which you speak we have made many version of all posted Open Technology.
All are self contained only heat required.
The heat need so low ambient temperature is enough to activate.
The system works on making itself cold as opposed to hot. The hot may be that surrounding or gathered to a higher temperature.
All may be made using off the shelf parts.
Turbine may be car water pump to other form of circular pump.
The remainder is pipe attachment.
The driver we have concentrated on is Carbon Dioxided due to its high expansion curve once past 50*C and that it still has enough expansion force at minus 10*C to produce electricity.
Carbon Dioxide a natural refrigerant R744 is a gas that for all purposes except it be a gas that not behave like a gas but so odd that when heated enough it turns to Dry-Ice, which is a boon for cooling.
Power calculations are one litre flow per second at 9 bar pressure produces 720 watts increasing by pressure or volume per second.
One expample and the easiest to make as it only involves joining things.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/RADIANTPUMP.png
Cheers Peter
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As heat pumps already are over unity
There are ways to make it more "Efficient" but I wouldn't go so far as to claim Over Unity.
What I was thinking... when you get the Stirling engine to power the generator/alternator, tap whatever you need to keep the Heat Pump running and the rest is useful for what ever you need.
This scenario isn't "Over Unity". However, it uses a portion of the electricity to keep it self running. Much like an engine runs on it's own after you start it.
for example the ground by using the thermodynamic heat pump cycle,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump_and_refrigeration_cycle
However, facts remain, which is that if your heat pump setup has an overall
coefficient of performance of let's say 3, which isn't at all unusual, that then in
turn means that for every KW of electric power you put in to the system you get
3 KW of heat out of the process, which is why I call it over unity, which it really
isn't, as it merely "steals" the energy already stored in the ground.
I just read about the relatively low efficiency grade of the Sterling engine when
it comes to letting it power an alternator for example, it was in the range of 20%
or even less.
I'm more curious as to what a Tesla bladeless turbine engine could have to offer
if you were to let the upstream of the refrigerant pass through the Tesla engine
just before it comes back to the heat exchanger in your heat pump.
If the heat pump takes let's for arguments sake say 1 KW of electric power to
operate and that the COP is 3 on a good day, that then means that you'd get
3 KW of heat out of your heat pump system to heat up your water, home, etc.
If you then were to put a Tesla turbine engine the way I just described, then
as such an engine has anything up to 90% of effiecency grade and an alternator
has about say 90% effiecency grade you would take away some 1.3 KW of heat
coming up from the ground in order to get 1 KW of electric effect out from the
alternator to power the heat pump.
The rest 1.7 KW could then be used to heat up your water etc at virtually no cost
at all except for maintenance costs of the heat pump system itself.
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Hello FaradayEz
To reply to your question of Heat Pump/Engine overunity.
To my knowledge it be correct to say such device not exist in commerce.
Developed Heat- Engine for some time have abandoned Steam for natural gasses which are gas at the start and highly excitable to heat.
Heat source increases one litre water temperature 50*C to 100*C in one second.
This heat passes to Carbon Dioxide- R744 and in so doing creates a gas pressure differential of 200 bar to 7,000 bar -6,880 bar driver force.
Lower grade line pipe has full pressure handling capacity.
82% efficient turbine generator each second receiving one litre of water at 6,800 bar pressure outputs 500kW.
Watlow 360kW heating element provides heat source to the water in which the gas gas gets excited.
Cheers Peter
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As heat pumps already are over unity
it then steals energy from that flow in order to turn it into electric energy via an
alternator, which in turn powers the heat pump compressor + the circulation
pump and all the control electronics needed to operate the whole system.
That in turn means that you get less heat out of the heat pump to heat up your
water, but I could actually live with that as it would be for free anyway, provided
that the Tesla engine works the way I think (hope) that it does.
That way I wouldn't have to pay for the electric energy needed to operate the
heat pump, the Tesla engine would in that case provide all the electric energy
needed to power the whole system (via the alternator), it would in other words
power itself and you wouldn't even call it a perpetuum mobile, it's just common
physics, you use the (free) heat energy stored in the ground, much like the way
you use a wheel in a stream of water to power an alternator, you just use the
(free) kinetic energy of the stream.
What would be needed is an initial start of the compressor + pump + electronics
and once the pump is operating normally you switch over the electric supply to
the alternator so it sort of speaking starts powering itself.
This whole concept is of course based on the assumption that the Tesla engine
works the way I hope it does, otherwize this whole theory is totally useless.
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Hello Lynx,
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/RADIANTPUMP.png
Thank you for your comments. Though there be a couple of things not quite correct, if the attached open technology is used.
No Telsa device is involved, power is generated by a hydro turbine. There is no heat pump compressor, nor are there any electronics needed to operate the whole system.
Water temperature is maintaned by a thermostat opening and closing as in a combustion engine.
To your question as to where the turbine should be placed, upstream is where it allready is, water travelling uphill passes through. This occurs so no pump or compressor is needed for the gas return. Gas return is accomplished by water fall after leaving the hydro turbine, drawing a vacuum behind it, which is filled with cold gas drawn out of the cooling tank. This occurs no matter what pressure/force is being delivered to the hydro turbine. The temperature differential between the heat source and cooling device sets the pressure/force received by the turbine.
Moving away from gathered heating, a electric heating element maker poses their 320kW heating element will keep water at 100*C. This we have not yet trialed. 100*C water is used to heat Carbon Dioxide which forces one litre of water per second to a hydro turbine generating 500kW.
Finding Nemos boat builder would be a boon as he/she got the shaft seal to hold at 20,000 leagues under the sea. Power generation needs only seal against 12,500 leagues under the sea.
We have thought leather or magnet force feild as shaft seal, and remain open to all suggestions.
Cheers Peter
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Hello Lynx,
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee39...NTPUMP.png
Thank you for your comments. Though there be a couple of things not quite correct, if the attached open technology is used.................
on, I am merely venting ideas to the original post regarding Geothermal Heat Pump
/ Ground Source Heat Pump.
But thanks anyway.
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I'm wandering of you place the tesla device there, then the engine of the pump has to work for the energy gained by that tesla device. So your pump needs to work harder?
it then steals energy from that flow in order to turn it into electric energy via an
alternator,
This whole concept is of course based on the assumption that the Tesla engine
works the way I hope it does, otherwize this whole theory is totally useless.
-
I'm wandering of you place the tesla device there, then the engine of the pump has to work for the energy gained by that tesla device. So your pump needs to work harder?
it then steals energy from that flow in order to turn it into electric energy via an
alternator,
This whole concept is of course based on the assumption that the Tesla engine
works the way I hope it does, otherwize this whole theory is totally useless.
-
I'm more curious as to what a Tesla bladeless turbine engine could have to offer
if you were to let the upstream of the refrigerant pass through the Tesla engine
just before it comes back to the heat exchanger in your heat pump.
If you've got a Stirling Engine like this one. (http://www.animatedengines.com/vstirling.html)
Then, you would stick a "tesla turbine" in the tube/pipe connecting the two cylinders. Is this correct?
That way you take advantage of the moving "refrigerant". as opposed to the expansion and contraction of the "refrigerant".
Trying to stick to the KISS method. :D
The whole point of the Heat Pump was to just maintain a specific temperature on the Stirling Engine in order to have a constant output.
-
I'm more curious as to what a Tesla bladeless turbine engine could have to offer
if you were to let the upstream of the refrigerant pass through the Tesla engine
just before it comes back to the heat exchanger in your heat pump.
If you've got a Stirling Engine like this one. (http://www.animatedengines.com/vstirling.html)
Then, you would stick a "tesla turbine" in the tube/pipe connecting the two cylinders. Is this correct?
That way you take advantage of the moving "refrigerant". as opposed to the expansion and contraction of the "refrigerant".
Trying to stick to the KISS method. :D
The whole point of the Heat Pump was to just maintain a specific temperature on the Stirling Engine in order to have a constant output.
The reason for replacing the Sterling engine as you proposed in the original post
is because of the relatively low efficiency grade of the Sterling engine, it's only
about 40% effective, which in the end doesn't leave so much mechanical work
to operate an alternator.
A Tesla bladeless turbine is about 90% effective, which of course would be more
desireable to use in this application.
My theory is of course based on the assumption that the Tesla engine works the
way I suggest here, otherwize it's useless to pursue this any further.
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Hi Lynx,
Can you find a link for me to the Tesla device you thought of?
thx
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Ok, so it uses only the heat.
or is it it steals the movement?
(hmm have to check the Tesla thing)
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Ok, so it uses only the heat.
or is it it steals the movement?
(hmm have to check the Tesla thing)
If it takes away energy from the refrigerant in order to do work elsewhere,
for example to produce electric energy, you are then left with less energy in
the refrigerant to do what it is originally supposed to do, which is to heat up
water.
Why is this so hard to understand?
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Ok, so it uses only the heat.
or is it it steals the movement?
(hmm have to check the Tesla thing)
If it takes away energy from the refrigerant in order to do work elsewhere,
for example to produce electric energy, you are then left with less energy in
the refrigerant to do what it is originally supposed to do, which is to heat up
water.
Why is this so hard to understand?
-
Ok, so it uses only the heat.
or is it it steals the movement?
(hmm have to check the Tesla thing)
If it takes away energy from the refrigerant in order to do work elsewhere,
for example to produce electric energy, you are then left with less energy in
the refrigerant to do what it is originally supposed to do, which is to heat up
water.
Why is this so hard to understand?
I just checked out the basic principal of a heat pump and as it turns out my
idea of having a Tesla bladeless engine cut into the stream of the refrigerant
where it turns into vapor after the vaporizer, just before it enters the
compressor, probably wouldn't work.
The purpose of the refrigerant is to carry heat, the kinetic power of the
refrigerant flow itself isn't at all interesting in the heat pump cycle, if I
understand it correctly.
Too bad really as the only other way I know of turning heat into electricity
would be by using a Sterling engine, just like the OP suggested.
If the Sterling engine only had a higher efficiency grade in turning heat into
electricity this whole concept would be a total winner, all you would need
then would be an initial start and after that then the system would be self
sustaining thanks to the heat derived from the ground.
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I'm beginning to wonder why no one has found some really effective way to convert heat into electricity.
It would be a most interesting device as it in this case would provide a way for you to heat up your home at virtually
no cost at all.
Could this technology be just as threatening to the fossile based fuel industry as the Meyer WFC tech is?
Could it be that patents etc on this has (is) being just as supressed as Meyer's patents?
Come to think of it, such a really efficient device would be really threatening to not only the fossile based fuel
industry, but basically to just about any power generating company, what ever you have it.
Discuss. :cool:
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I think you are very correct in this Lynx. What one could do with heat or the removal of heat or even the differential of heat and cold. Iv'e often thought about a differential temperature machine to produce energy, 6' in the ground verses 6' above ground. An example would be, in a very small way, in MV's, is that a thermocouple generates a voltage with two dissimilar metals or wires connected at one end, heating up this end causes a voltage to be generated at the other end. You can connect 10 or more of these thermocouple's in series to generate a higher voltage which would be called a thermopile. These are used in Nat. and LP gas valves to hold the pilot part of the gas valve open. The thermocouple being mounted so as to be held in the pilot flame. What happens is, when you hold the pilot valve in, you light the pilot, once the thermocouple is heated to the point that enough voltage is generated, this voltage is fed to a solenoid which creates a magnetic field, which in turn will hold the pilot valve open, at this point the main valve will come on because the pilot valve staying open also opens the main valve port. If the pilot were to go out for some reason, the pilot valve would close, because of no voltage or magnetic field being generated and being spring loaded to the closed position, would also shut down the main port of the valve.This is as a safety devise.This is also one way of senceing teperature in electronics, with the generation of heat. Oh well class 101 on gas pilots.:D:P
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Hello Lynx,
Most happy to discuss, however at the moment its 2.30 after midnight over here so I will keep it short for first reply.
AMEN you have it in one.
We are currently going flat out for domestic use, trying to beat them by make your own electricity. Cheaper than what you can buy it for.
Ground heat above minus 10*C and theres no looking back.
The whole of Australia is now mapped urban geothermal below 100*C
At 100*C twenty coal burning power stations go.
The same technology wipes out oil.
The combustion engine is just an inefficient steam engine. With CO2 the efficiency comes back and costs drop through the floor.
The best compression and combustion of a Diesel engine gives 120 bar of drive force for a heat of 1200*C. CO2 does it for +40*C.
Talk soon.
Cheers Peter
-
In think you are very correct in this Lynx. What one could do with heat or the removal of heat or even the differential of heat and cold. Iv'e often thought about a differential temperature machine to produce energy, 6' in the ground verses 6' above ground. An example would be, in a very small way, in MV's, is that a thermocouple generates a voltage with two dissimilar metals or wires connected at one end, heating up this end causes a voltage to be generated at the other end. You can connect 10 or more of these thermocouple's in series to generate a higher voltage which would be called a thermopile. These are used in Nat. and LP gas valves to hold the pilot part of the gas valve open. The thermocouple being mounted so as to be held in the pilot flame. What happens is, when you hold the pilot valve in, you light the pilot, once the thermocouple is heated to the point that enough voltage is generated, this voltage is fed to a solenoid which creates a magnetic field, which in turn will hold the pilot valve open, at this point the main valve will come on because the pilot valve staying open also opens the main valve port. If the pilot were to go out for some reason, the pilot valve would close, because of no voltage or magnetic field being generated and being spring loaded to the closed position, would also shut down the main port of the valve.This is as a safety devise.This is also one way of senceing teperature in electronics. Oh well class 101 on gas pilots.:D:P
It's true that you need a difference in temperature in order to be able to get any
work done, much like that of an electric power source in that if you have 2 equal
potentials, that which are galvanically coupled to eachother (I.E common ground
for example), then you could basically short these 2 equal potentials together and
there would still be no current flowing between the 2, you'd need a difference
in potential in order to be able to get current flowing, or if you like, to get work
done.
What I've found so far is that thermoelectricity looks really promising in turning
waste heat, or basically just any kind of (difference in) heat into electricity.
Waste heat is basically found in all kinds of mechanical, moving or heat generating
application, whatever you have it.
In the case of home power generation you could basically do just as well in
applying a highly effective way of turning heat into electricity in the heat pump and
instead of having the heat pump heating up the water through the heat exchanger
you could let the electricity do the work of heating your house/water/etc using
electric radiators/heaters instead.
On a good day the COP of a standard heat pump is about 3, so if the effciency
grade of the device turning heat into electricity is fairly high, let's for arguments
sake say in the range of about 80%, then you would first get 3 times more heat
effect out of the heat pump compared to the electric effect you feed into in the
heat pump, after that you would then be left with 0.8 x 3 times of electric effect
out of the 'heat-to-electricity' device, which would leave you with a net electric
gain of 2.4, so in a 3 kW heat pump you would end up getting 7.2 kW of electric
effect out of it.
If you then first use 3 kW to power the heat pump, in order to make it self
sustaining, you would then be left with 4.2 kW at your disposal to do whatever you
want with it , for example heat up your house, keep your lights on, surf the
internet, bla bla bla. :cool:
Hello Lynx,
Most happy to discuss, however at the moment its 2.30 after midnight over here so I will keep it short for first reply.
AMEN you have it in one.
We are currently going flat out for domestic use, trying to beat them by make your own electricity. Cheaper than what you can buy it for.
Ground heat above minus 10*C and theres no looking back.
The whole of Australia is now mapped urban geothermal below 100*C
At 100*C twenty coal burning power stations go.
The same technology wipes out oil.
The combustion engine is just an inefficient steam engine. With CO2 the efficiency comes back and costs drop through the floor.
The best compression and combustion of a Diesel engine gives 120 bar of drive force for a heat of 1200*C. CO2 does it for +40*C.
Talk soon.
Cheers Peter
-
In think you are very correct in this Lynx. What one could do with heat or the removal of heat or even the differential of heat and cold. Iv'e often thought about a differential temperature machine to produce energy, 6' in the ground verses 6' above ground. An example would be, in a very small way, in MV's, is that a thermocouple generates a voltage with two dissimilar metals or wires connected at one end, heating up this end causes a voltage to be generated at the other end. You can connect 10 or more of these thermocouple's in series to generate a higher voltage which would be called a thermopile. These are used in Nat. and LP gas valves to hold the pilot part of the gas valve open. The thermocouple being mounted so as to be held in the pilot flame. What happens is, when you hold the pilot valve in, you light the pilot, once the thermocouple is heated to the point that enough voltage is generated, this voltage is fed to a solenoid which creates a magnetic field, which in turn will hold the pilot valve open, at this point the main valve will come on because the pilot valve staying open also opens the main valve port. If the pilot were to go out for some reason, the pilot valve would close, because of no voltage or magnetic field being generated and being spring loaded to the closed position, would also shut down the main port of the valve.This is as a safety devise.This is also one way of senceing teperature in electronics. Oh well class 101 on gas pilots.:D:P
It's true that you need a difference in temperature in order to be able to get any
work done, much like that of an electric power source in that if you have 2 equal
potentials, that which are galvanically coupled to eachother (I.E common ground
for example), then you could basically short these 2 equal potentials together and
there would still be no current flowing between the 2, you'd need a difference
in potential in order to be able to get current flowing, or if you like, to get work
done.
What I've found so far is that thermoelectricity looks really promising in turning
waste heat, or basically just any kind of (difference in) heat into electricity.
Waste heat is basically found in all kinds of mechanical, moving or heat generating
application, whatever you have it.
In the case of home power generation you could basically do just as well in
applying a highly effective way of turning heat into electricity in the heat pump and
instead of having the heat pump heating up the water through the heat exchanger
you could let the electricity do the work of heating your house/water/etc using
electric radiators/heaters instead.
On a good day the COP of a standard heat pump is about 3, so if the effciency
grade of the device turning heat into electricity is fairly high, let's for arguments
sake say in the range of about 80%, then you would first get 3 times more heat
effect out of the heat pump compared to the electric effect you feed into in the
heat pump, after that you would then be left with 0.8 x 3 times of electric effect
out of the 'heat-to-electricity' device, which would leave you with a net electric
gain of 2.4, so in a 3 kW heat pump you would end up getting 7.2 kW of electric
effect out of it.
If you then first use 3 kW to power the heat pump, in order to make it self
sustaining, you would then be left with 4.2 kW at your disposal to do whatever you
want with it , for example heat up your house, keep your lights on, surf the
internet, bla bla bla. :cool:
Hello Lynx,
Most happy to discuss, however at the moment its 2.30 after midnight over here so I will keep it short for first reply.
AMEN you have it in one.
We are currently going flat out for domestic use, trying to beat them by make your own electricity. Cheaper than what you can buy it for.
Ground heat above minus 10*C and theres no looking back.
The whole of Australia is now mapped urban geothermal below 100*C
At 100*C twenty coal burning power stations go.
The same technology wipes out oil.
The combustion engine is just an inefficient steam engine. With CO2 the efficiency comes back and costs drop through the floor.
The best compression and combustion of a Diesel engine gives 120 bar of drive force for a heat of 1200*C. CO2 does it for +40*C.
Talk soon.
Cheers Peter
-
A country like for example Iceland, who get's some 87% of geothermal heat to their houses, sure would like to get their hands on
such a highly efficient device.
Then they would be able to provide free electric energy to the whole of Iceland and in addition to that they would be able to sell
inexpensive electricity to for example EU.
Here's a quote I found:
In Iceland, there are three major geothermal power plants which produce about 17% (2004) of the country's electricity. In addition, geothermal heating meets the heating and hot water requirements for around 87% of the nations' housing.
(http://iceland.vefur.is/iceland_nature/geology_of_iceland/geothermal_heat.htm)
By the way, such converted heat pumps could basically be placed just about anywhere, providing electric energy 24/7.
And if the owners of these 'geothermal-to-electricity-generating' powerplants were to sell their electricity to an unreasonable
high price, well then the general public would start building such powerplants themselves, then it would be a simple matter
of having a fairly high one time cost, after that then there would only be maintenance costs involved. :cool:
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http://www.gizmag.com/most-efficient-thermoelectric-material/24210/
This is (officially) the latest in heat-to-electricity conversion tech.
It converts about 15 to 20 percent of waste heat into electricity.
Is this the best modern science has to offer?
I don't think so.
So why aren't we there yet?
Here's a few why: Greed, oil, gasoline, fossile based fuel, greed (greed is so powerful that it can be mentioned twice).
This and Stanley Meyer WFC tech would be very real threats to any countries infrastructures, once we're able to build them.
The only way for any of these technologies to make it is if they're launched on a wide front and put into use Worldwide as soon
as humanly possible once they're made available to the general public.
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If you two knew how on it you were your starfish would squeeze up.
Commenced 2002, assitance appreciated to American Universities and NASA.
Handed over to State Department and Australian Government 2006. All fell down a Coal pit 2007.
Headed into North Korera but the US turned the Oil came back on.
Home built in the picture is hardware shop water pipe and fittings, squash balls, car water pump and bottle of Pepsi. It will cool at low pressure same way as it does at high pressure.
The 720 watts at 9 bar and 1 litre per second, thats down in the canyon. Domestic get more power by micro turbine if going under -10*C.
While a underground heat differential occur in inch increments it be more stable a little deeper down.
Please note I have been calling the thermal figures low to dispatch any queery they be overstated.
Lnyx generator and turbine may be one and the same. Heating may occur internal of turbine casing (no boiler). How do you get it hot without thermal element?
Cheers Peter
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/COMPRESSOR.png
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Hello Lynx,
I agree with that you say of the past, and the present they try it again. As you mentioned Coal and Oil. The real losers in any change. They dominate the world at the moment yet never existed for hundreds of years. Cave man boiled water and we consider ourselves more evolved because we can boil it hotter.
The fight is not unlike put against oil and the combustion engine, the horse breeder and Governments tried to stop it but couldnt stop the people making them at home. Use to be hundred of engine makers from home workshops they defeated the horse and in turn were defeated by companies making engines.
Nobody makes a steam/gas engine at home anymore let alone a combustion engine. However the design of both gas/heat replacing steam and flash heat replacing combustion is so simple its made at home, which made the coffee cups rattle down the Coal pit and caused concern that another golden beach turning black would spur on we dont need it get rid of it.
That which is Open Technology cannot be suppressed, they can only get you if money is your thing, because then you never let it out and nobody ever buys it, they are not fools.
The more the word gets out the faster things will change. Those with more costly less efficient technology want to keep selling it, wholsaler, retailer, repair man etc.
Their problem is they cant come within a bulls roar of the cost and efficiency, and the back pocket eventualy wins.
Change started years ago and like a stream it picks up more and more till being a raging river.
Governments and black air makers in our countries swamp the airwaves with look at the you beaut Solar (useless) isnt it great. Cant compete with Coal or Oil but they keep that mute as possible.
All those that recently got sucked in by Government and spent big on Solar, this month got shafted by Government, pulled the rebates, and wiped out it ever getting onto the grid, so those poor suckers are stuck with a huge white elephant and have no money now to buy anything else. Give Coal, Oil and Government their due, that was a stunner of a move to hold back change. In short go out and buy something worth it, now you havent got the money anymore, you dope!
Possibly you could help me out here. Is it true California has banned burning Coal, and has a canyon somewhere with hydro power?
Cheers Peter:)
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Possibly you could help me out here. Is it true California has banned burning Coal, and has a canyon somewhere with hydro power?
Cheers Peter:)
Governments will have hell on Earth once some device giving us free
energy (let's just call it free energy, without any BS) is made available to the
general public.
Why don't we speculate a little on that. :angel:
To start with there would be a boom in spreading this tech, whatever it is, let's for
arguments sake say then that it's the Meyer WFC that's been made open to the
general public.
People would integrate it in their cars, motorcycles, lawnmowers, basically all
and any vehicle that which at present is powered by some fossile based fuel.
That would mean the start of the end of the fossile based fuel industry as we
know it, Worldwide.
As a result of that there would be a massive unemployment crisis, not just in the
companies actually collecting the fuels, it would also affect the rest of the
companies who's under the 'fossile based fuel umbrella', namely the shipping
industries, the power generating companies who uses FBF (clever, eh? :D), the
refineries, the sub contractors who's depending on the FBF industries, etc etc.
The governments themselves would suffer immensely due to the sudden drop of
income taxes, not to mention the unemployment spendings on all fronts and ends.
The people who suddenly finds themselves out of a job will (have to) start looking
for ways to maintain a decent standard of living, so technologies such as this,
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=144 , will emerge all
over, providing food at virtually no cost, because, hey, the energy needed to
operate these things is free after all.
Also home owners will equip their houses with such Meyer WFC based machines
that provides heat and electricity.
After a while a new state of 'normality' would emerge, where people have all the
food and energy they need and governments have less taxes to calculate
(speculate) with in their budgets.
Here comes an interesting question:
When we get all the food and all the energy we need, would we then have to
work for a living?
If not, how could we then afford to buy new cellphones, laptops, tv's, etc? :cool:
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Thanks.
YES!
and NO!
Steam revolution, ridded sail making and the bullocks etc etc. (change)
Combustion engine they gave up on the horses as well. (change)
Cave man boiled water, shaven man boils it hotter. (great leap forward)
Man still involved in all life, it just becomes cheaper (see Steam revolution) and cheaper. (see Combustion engine)
By making it so simple one thing does both, it has one moving part, it can be made at home or home garage (see Steam and Combustion engine)
The money doesnt disappear it just moves around, just like always and as allways not the way some people want.:exclamation:
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Hello Lynx,
"If the Sterling engine only had a higher efficiency grade in turning heat into
electricity this whole concept would be a total winner"
Not a STIRLING ENGINE! A 82% efficient Pelton wheel. works the same with Francis and Kapston type turbine. Little friction feed back when oil rubs against a surface - unlike Stirling.
Cheers Peter
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Hello Lynx,
"If the Sterling engine only had a higher efficiency grade in turning heat into
electricity this whole concept would be a total winner"
Not a STIRLING ENGINE! A 82% efficient Pelton wheel. works the same with Francis and Kapston type turbine. Little friction feed back when oil rubs against a surface - unlike Stirling.
Cheers Peter
mechanical (electric) energy, but it's efficiency grade is rather poor at this, the
overall grade here is only about in the range of 15-20% in converting heat into
electricity.
The Pelton wheel and the Francis turbine turns kinetic energy into mechanical (or
if you will electric) energy, it's not the same as turning heat into electricity.
But thanks anyway!
-
For Heating Flowing Water. (heat source)
KW = Liters/min. x Temperature Rise (°C) x 0.076.
1 litre per second. 60 x 50 x 0.076 = 228KW.
Transfer the heat from the H2O to the CO2.
Transfer the CO2 pressure to the turbine liquid.
7,000 bar pressure liquid to turbine- 1 litre per second = 560KW.
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Here's an interesting concept in turning heat into electricity:
http://www.technologyreview.com/view/427140/graphene-battery-turns-ambient-heat-into-electric-current/
I believe that this concept, or something similar to this, will in the end prove to be the most effective way of turning
heat into electricity.
It doesn't involve any moving parts which can (will) produce even more heat due to friction and other such heat
generating losses, so the less moving parts the higher the efficiency. :cool:
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Here's another no-moving-parts-electricity-generating device, uses something called the spin Seebeck effect:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120711130909.htm
Beware FBF:ers, the future holds no place for your kind :cool:
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Thanks for that, gave me a bit of a turn before I read further.
They are still at micro vollts and have no upped it to miilivolts.
They dont let on at what temperature they get any volt!
But hey good on em for doing something different.
I wonder if Oaklahoma and California University are keeping an eye on them. California and Oaklahoma University together with NASA played a part in DaS development.
Please FBF:ers, ?
Cheers Peter
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Please FBF:ers, ?
Cheers Peter
-
Thanks,
Cheers Peter
-
haven't been on in a while. :dodgy:
LOL! your posts were hilarious to read through. Specifically when you got to the "FBF'ers" :D
Your guy's ideas are pretty neat. Jeff beat me to the punch on those thermocouples and thermopiles. :P
You would probably need... a gazillion... of those thermocouple/pile combinations to even dream of an off grid house. :P
Lynx... talking about an electrical generator... check this out. :D:cool:
I know this is slightly off topic from the original post... however, it goes hand in hand with "home power generation".
Are you guys thinking what I'm thinking? :D
It's a matter of scale and efficiency! :D:cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
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The concept is cool, I don't know if there would be enough momentum to do work though and would sure vibrate allot. Maybe in a different manor of design it could generate power. Thanks Ravenous Emu.:cool::D:P
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Lynx... talking about an electrical generator... check this out. :D:cool:
I know this is slightly off topic from the original post... however, it goes hand in hand with "home power generation".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
The problem(?) could be that perm magnets doesn't like taking a pounding very much,
they tend to lose their magnetism through such things (hits, heat, etc).
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haven't been on in a while. :dodgy:
LOL! your posts were hilarious to read through. Specifically when you got to the "FBF'ers" :D
Your guy's ideas are pretty neat. Jeff beat me to the punch on those thermocouples and thermopiles. :P
You would probably need... a gazillion... of those thermocouple/pile combinations to even dream of an off grid house. :P
Lynx... talking about an electrical generator... check this out. :D:cool:
I know this is slightly off topic from the original post... however, it goes hand in hand with "home power generation".
Are you guys thinking what I'm thinking? :D
It's a matter of scale and efficiency! :D:cool:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bssBAb6EzM4
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The concept is cool, I don't know if there would be enough momentum to do work though and would sure vibrate allot. Maybe in a different manor of design it could generate power. Thanks Ravenous Emu.:cool::D:P
However, That's why we build and test right. :D
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The concept is cool, I don't know if there would be enough momentum to do work though and would sure vibrate allot. Maybe in a different manor of design it could generate power. Thanks Ravenous Emu.:cool::D:P
However, That's why we build and test right. :D
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I'm beginning to wonder why no one has found some really effective way to convert heat into electricity.
It would be a most interesting device as it in this case would provide a way for you to heat up your home at virtually
no cost at all.
Could this technology be just as threatening to the fossile based fuel industry as the Meyer WFC tech is?
Could it be that patents etc on this has (is) being just as supressed as Meyer's patents?
Come to think of it, such a really efficient device would be really threatening to not only the fossile based fuel
industry, but basically to just about any power generating company, what ever you have it.
Discuss. :cool:
That which you speak off allready exists, its workings validadated by NASA and California University (see posts DaS Energy) its open technology, meaning free to copy.
Its not development that is needed its the patience and cunning to overcome the vested interests of other energy form suppliers.
Commercial breweries are first to take up the technology breakthrough. Unlike Solar and Wind which relies upon fossil fuelled power OK, or power priced beyound acceptance, CO2 power generation is 24/7 and fossil fuelled power cant find any threat to stop breweries using such.
As more business take up the technology the greater the threat to fossil fuels, however much like the horse and oxen loss to the machine age nothing can stop the uptake of new technology, only delay the inevitable.
One example of many where the enormous energy store of CO2 is engaged.
PS. Any enviroment where the temperature is above -10*C any amount of electricty may be produced. The higher the temperature the more compact the turbine/generator. The energy supplied by heated CO2 leaves the charts at +80*C , that 20* before water boils, and Steam energy cannot match the power of CO2 no matter what heat is applied.
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/TURBINE.png
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I'm beginning to wonder why no one.............
That which you speak off allready exists, its workings validadated by NASA and California University............
Do you have a link to either NASA or California University where all this is explained?
Thanks.
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Hello Lynx,
Sorry but no. However NASA can help with the Carbon Dioxide heat/pressure and cooling >see web begining 2002. This is when NASA first published CO2 as Refrigerant R744. There now be a web site totaly devoted called R744.
The other is California Correspondence school of hydro engineering. They and others can assist with hydro turbines of 82% efficieincy. These are the only two thing of huge importance. From the post you will see at diferent temperature setting CO2 has different pressures. CO2 phase graphs are mutli listed on the web.
System working are straight forward, the same as air blowing water out of a pipe. Any number of design may be had.
In simple terms a pipe is attached to the inlet side of a turbine and a further pipe is attached to the exit side of the turbine. The pipes and turbine are filled with water. Then if air/gas is blown into the inlet pipe water will move through the turbine.
What is occuring in the posting is the inlet pipe is one way valved at the top. Top portion of that pipe has no water wheras the bottom portion of the pipe does. The top portion of the inlet pipe has filled with cold CO2 which is heating and putting blow pressure on the water below which moves through the turbine and up into a holding tank that feeds water back into the inlet pipe when there is no CO2 gas pressure keeping the one way valve closed.
The C02 heat expanding sees it follow direct behind the water. This it does untill coming to pass under a vertical pipe going direct to the holding tank. (This pipe at its top is capped with a hole drilled through it. Sitting underneath that hole is a ball which is held there by its floating on water which fills the pipe) The CO2 gas finding itself under a pipe filled with water obeys the physics that gas will always rise to to surface of water. The CO2 travelling up the pipe pushes water out of the bottom of the pipe and therby leaves the ball nothing to float on so it drops down leaving the hole clear for the CO2 to escape. (The CO2 not escape to freedom but the same holding tank as the water) CO2 going from high compression to low compression results in it flash cooling (hence R744) though being a gas it remains atop the water. After enough CO2 has exited to the water holding tank there not be enough pressure left inside the inlet pipe to keep the one way closed so it opens under water pressure and allows water to drain from the holding tank and refill the inlet pipe. This in rush of water behind the CO2 gas causes it all to exit throught the vertical pipe having the air valve (as described). As there is not enough water to fill the inlet pipe a vacuum is created which fills with cold CO2 gas drawn by water movement into the inlet pipe. The end effect of water and gas movement is that the red zone is full of cold gas and water has returned to as before and with the ball again floated sealing off the gas escape hole. What then happens is the cold CO2 gas in the red zone of the the inlet pipe begins to heat up and expand putting force the water below.
Flow data for any 82% efficient hydro turbine is > Water of 9 bar pressure and flowing at 1 litre per second shall produce 729 watts of electricity. This increases at both volume of water per second. Bar pressure of water flow.
That posted is the simpliest of all making using scrap pipe, a car water pump and tennis or squash balls.
Person with access to machine shop may make different yet still entirely only one moving part (liberty taken that the balls remain stationary in the water)
I be a back yard developer and so am without that of other posters, however I can walk you through.
Please take real care when heating CO2, the minimum working pressure of 9 bar need is arrived at hot side of -10*C, which rapidly climbs to be 10,000 bar at hot side of +80*C.
Cheers Peter
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10000 bar of pressure?
Sounds dangerous to me.
I still don't understand exactly how it works, but thanks anyway.
Isn't there any online community building these things?
Thanks.
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10,000 bar is a common pressure in mining and indeed quite safe, though the home builder may choose to stay closer to the 9 bar lower heat mark.
Of real interest is the heat need to bar pressure, Steam at +550*C is 175 bar whilst CO2 at +80*C is 10,000 bar. Both Steam and CO2 are a gas. A Steam turbine/generator at 175 bar pressure outputs 350 megawatts .
10,000 :- 175 = 57 x 350 = 20,000 megawatts. 550 :- 80 = 6.8 . 6.8 x 20,000 = 136,000 megawatts, bit of a saving there!
I not know of any community build though would assist given Coal and Oils lack of enthusiasm.
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10000 bar of pressure?
Sounds dangerous to me.
I still don't understand exactly how it works, but thanks anyway.
Isn't there any online community building these things?
Thanks.
I do agree that outside of mining 10,000 bar pressure is not much heard off. However it be included to give a comparison to Steams starting point +100*C.
CO2's 20 bar pressure at +20*C is more domesicated. Micro hydro generation receives water at the same pressure as if coming from a vertical drop of 200 meters.
The concept is Einstein fridge, where Ammonia is boiled out of water making it a high pressure Refrigerant gas. (R744 is a much more power Refrigerant gas than Ammonia, it also needs far less heat)
The difference lays in the fridge uses the cold gas to make the beer cold, DaS puts the cold gas back in the boiler where it expands and pushes out the water.
There be many ways of doing the same thing, some not as complicated in simplicity, yet all following the principal of blowing water out of a straw, took us ten years to get there, dont expect it flash into anybodies mind.
Conglomeration NASA R744, California University Hydro turbine. Pumping cold gas into the pipe then heating the gas so its blows the water through the turbine was easy, next came how to stop the gas reaching the turbine, answer water pipeline air bleed valve, cooling the gas not a problem it freezes everything around it.
Dont know of any community build but right in there if there was one.
Been built before then converted to high pressure failure of turbine seals, so rebuilt in Aluimium to find it wont take direct heat.
Micro Pelton with Fisher and Pykle washing machine motor. Off shelf screw together or cut and weld, may also be glued.
Thanks.
10000 bar of pressure?
Sounds dangerous to me.
I still don't understand exactly how it works, but thanks anyway.
Isn't there any online community building these things?
Thanks.
I do agree that outside of mining 10,000 bar pressure is not much heard off. However it be included to give a comparison to Steams starting point +100*C.
CO2's 20 bar pressure at +20*C is more domesicated. Micro hydro generation receives water at the same pressure as if coming from a vertical drop of 200 meters.
The concept is Einstein fridge, where Ammonia is boiled out of water making it a high pressure Refrigerant gas. (R744 is a much more power Refrigerant gas than Ammonia, it also needs far less heat)
The difference lays in the fridge uses the cold gas to make the beer cold, DaS puts the cold gas back in the boiler where it expands and pushes out the water.
There be many ways of doing the same thing, some not as complicated in simplicity, yet all following the principal of blowing water out of a straw, took us ten years to get there, dont expect it flash into anybodies mind.
Conglomeration NASA R744, California University Hydro turbine. Pumping cold gas into the pipe then heating the gas so its blows the water through the turbine was easy, next came how to stop the gas reaching the turbine, answer water pipeline air bleed valve, cooling the gas not a problem it freezes everything around it.
Dont know of any community build but right in there if there was one.
Been built before then converted to high pressure failure of turbine seals, so rebuilt in Aluminium to find it wont take direct heat.
Micro Pelton with Fisher and Pykle washing machine motor. Off shelf screw together or cut and weld, may also be glued.
Thanks.
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May help in understanding,
Peter :-)
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/workings_zps74b94142.png
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Hello Lynx,
A small correction. Turbines as well as the Stirling engine turn heat into electricity.
Only some refrigerators have a compressor others have a boiler.
The pupose of a refrigerant is not to carry heat but to get cold by pressure loss. This is done in both boiler and compressor fridges. Both type build up high pressure behind a restrictor plate/valve, that is a solid plate with tiny hole in it.
However it must be noted the purpose of a heat pump is not to make things cold but transfer heat from one place to another making it idealy usless in power generation, when the ground heat where it is is all that is needed to exite CO2 to turbine drive pressures.
Hello Lynx,
A small correction. Turbines as well as the Stirling engine turn heat into electricity.
Only some refrigerators have a compressor others have a boiler.
The pupose of a refrigerant is not to carry heat but to get cold by pressure loss. This is done in both boiler and compressor fridges. Both type build up high pressure behind a restrictor plate/valve, that is a solid plate with tiny hole in it.
However it must be noted the purpose of a heat pump is not to make things cold but transfer heat from one place to another making it idealy usless in power generation, when the ground heat where it is is all that is needed to exite CO2 to turbine drive pressure.
Dont yet know why but Photobucket has starting listing diagrams withdrawn hope this one stays.
Peter
http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/fridge_zpsa202eed8.png
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Hello all,
This thread not just me are on the right track.
I am the worlds worst writer but eventualy get there.
To begin at the start, both absorption and compressor fridge have a common which is pressurising the refrigerant (in the case CO2) onto a restrictor plate/valve. The hot refirigerant having passed the restriction is cold.
To the turbine generator this is great as the return refrigerant to the boiler is cold.
As with Steam there is some energy/force at low temperature but that energy/force increases as it gets hotter.
Commercial turbine generators work to the factor of one litre per second at nine bar pressure/force produces 720 watts.
By using the force that gathers at the restrictor plate/valve, replaced by a turbine which acheives exactly the same thing which is depressurising/loss of force, the energy is converted not wasted.
CO2 has a particular curve commencing at 30*C on through to 100*C. It goes from 64 bar to 10,000 bar. Which is converted to electricity would safely deliver 720KW.
The best way to heat a gas is to pass it through water which in this case needs be maintained at 100*C.
Having 30*C refrigerant enter the water and leave the water at 100*C, the heating must occur within the one second. This means the water must heat by 70*C in the one second to shift from refrigerant cooling to 30*C.
Watllow Industry and sciences gives us that the electrical energy needed to heat by 1 degree Celsius one litre of water in one minute requires 0.076KW. Multiple by 60 to get heating in one second is 4.56KW. To acheive 70*C this becomes 319.2KW. One litre of 9,000 bar force per second generates 720KW.
The tables dont reveal any overunity at the lower heat settings howver on past the 30*C mark it shows it face.
I dont have the money to build a 720KW turbine generator to prove it one way or the other. However either the science has it wrong or overunity is staring us in the face.
Reguards Peter
Hello all,
This thread not just me are on the right track.
I am the worlds worst writer but eventualy get there.
To begin at the start, both absorption and compressor fridge have a common which is pressurising the refrigerant (in the case CO2) onto a restrictor plate/valve. The hot refirigerant having passed the restriction is cold.
To the turbine generator this is great as the return refrigerant to the boiler is cold.
As with Steam there is some energy/force at low temperature but that energy/force increases as it gets hotter.
Commercial turbine generators work to the factor of one litre per second at nine bar pressure/force produces 720 watts.
By using the force that gathers at the restrictor plate/valve, replaced by a turbine which acheives exactly the same thing which is depressurising/loss of force, the energy is converted not wasted.
CO2 has a particular curve commencing at 30*C on through to 100*C. It goes from 64 bar to 10,000 bar. Which is converted to electricity would safely deliver 720KW.
The best way to heat a gas is to pass it through water which in this case needs be maintained at 100*C.
Having 30*C refrigerant enter the water and leave the water at 100*C, the heating must occur within the one second. This means the water must heat by 70*C in the one second to shift from refrigerant cooling to 30*C.
Watllow Industry and sciences gives us that the electrical energy needed to heat by 1 degree Celsius one litre of water in one minute requires 0.076KW. Multiple by 60 to get heating in one second is 4.56KW. To acheive 70*C this becomes 319.2KW. One litre of 9,000 bar force per second generates 720KW.
The tables dont reveal any overunity at the lower heat settings howver on past the 30*C mark it shows its face.
I dont have the money to build a 720KW turbine generator to prove it one way or the other. However either the science has it wrong or overunity is staring us in the face.
Reguards Peter
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Well the purpose of the Sterling engine is that it can turn heat energy into
mechanical (electric) energy, but it's efficiency grade is rather poor at this, the
overall grade here is only about in the range of 15-20% in converting heat into
electricity.
The Pelton wheel and the Francis turbine turns kinetic energy into mechanical (or
if you will electric) energy, it's not the same as turning heat into electricity.
But thanks anyway!
For a given set of inputs (various engine dimensions and volumes), mean pressure (for a pressurized engine/system), an estimated engine speed, and the two temperatures, it will plot the P-V curve and provide the net shaft output power for each of the three basic engine configurations, alpha, beta, and gamma.
To the best of my knowledge the calculations are correct, but never publicly released for scrutiny. Feedback, comment and corrections welcome.
Hopefully, this will take some of the guesswork out of some of the ideas that are floating around.
Enjoy,
kcd
SchmidtTheoryRevA.xls(http://open-source-energy.org/forum/attachment.php?aid=4105)
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Thanks for the spreadsheet KC, but I must admit that it's way over my head what you got there.
How can I tell the efficiency grade, in percentage, of the different configurations?
Thanks (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smiley_faces/original-smiley-face.gif)
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Thanks for the spreadsheet KC, but I must admit that it's way over my head what you got there.
How can I tell the efficiency grade, in percentage, of the different configurations?
Thanks (http://emoticoner.com/files/emoticons/smiley_faces/original-smiley-face.gif)
The most interesting number to change and observe the changes in output is the mean (average) pressure. The funky circle on the P-V diagram looks the same, but shifts upward (centered at the mean pressure) as the mean pressure is increased. Note that the output power increases as well. That is why most high efficiency engines operate at high pressures.
There was an example in one of the Stirling engine books I have of a fellow that built a small pressurable engine, with air as the working fluid. He applied heat, and a load to the shaft and observed the speed. He then slowly increased the pressure. I don't recall what pressures were used, not much, possibly 3 to 4 atm tops. Initially, the engine sped up, producing more power, but he soon reached a point where the speed leveled off, and then decreased with more added pressure. The author of the book provided no explanation.
But I believe that I can explain. The increased pressure moves the 'circle' on the P-V curve upward, and more work is produced. But the pressure increase also increases the density of the working fluid, which in turn provides a greater burden at both the hot and cold heat exchangers. The circle may move up on the chart, but the actual hot and cold temperature difference of the working fluid is decreasing, thus squeezing the circle smaller in the other dimension.
Heat exchanger design is critical to getting a Stirling engine running efficiently. The pressurized systems using Helium or Hydrogen do so in order to get the best performance possible for a given engine/heat exchanger design. Note that the Schmidt calculations are based on 'ideal' heat transfer, which is a bit of a stretch, but they are still very helpful to evaluate various 'what if' power generation ideas.
kcd
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Ok, you're clearly up to date regarding the properties of Sterling engines, good for us to have you on our side (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/grin.gif)
Thanks for the explanation but I'm afraid my wheel is spinning and the hamster's dead in this case........would a rule of thumb say that the overall efficiency for a Sterling engine is in the neckar of woods of about 20-30% -ish.....?
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Ok, you're clearly up to date regarding the properties of Sterling engines, good for us to have you on our side (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/grin.gif)
Thanks for the explanation but I'm afraid my wheel is spinning and the hamster's dead in this case........would a rule of thumb say that the overall efficiency for a Sterling engine is in the neckar of woods of about 20-30% -ish.....?
The whole point of posting the Excel file was for the folks that are thinking of generating power with low grade heat to do the calculations for them selves. Once that is done, one will see that the power is just not there. Yes, there are novel little engines that will run sitting on top of a hot cup of coffee - but these are otherwise not of much practical value, even if scaled up.
Sorry...
EDIT: Corrected typo on efficiency equation: was: 1 - (Tc - Th), SHOULD BE: 1 - (Tc / Th)
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Ok, thanks KC, appreciate it (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/thumbsup.gif)
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Hello Lynx,
"The Pelton wheel and the Francis turbine turns kinetic energy into mechanical (or
if you will electric) energy, it's not the same as turning heat into electricity"
In Sterling engine heat applied to air supplies the driving force.
In DaS heat applied to gas provides the driving force.
It is the gas heating that supplies the force not the water passaging through the turbine.
Hello Lynx,
"The Pelton wheel and the Francis turbine turns kinetic energy into mechanical (or
if you will electric) energy, it's not the same as turning heat into electricity"
In Sterling engine heat applied to air supplies the driving force.
In DaS heat applied to gas provides the driving force.
It is the gas heating that supplies the force not the water passaging through the turbine.
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A little rant then:
On the bottom of a lake the temperature is about 36 - 39 F.
Using say solar energy to heat the "hot" part of a Stirling engine and pumping cold water from the bottom of the lake
for the "cold" part could then be one way of cranking up the difference in temperature, hence upping it's efficiency grade.
The downside would of course be when the sun isn't shining and/or when the lake is 'particularly' hot, drilling a hole in the ground would also be another way of getting cold water, but anyway.
The engine would of course be used to generate electric energy, if you're out to get hot water then solar energy alone would be the right way to go here.
As it "only" would give you energy in intervals then storing energy would be the way to go here, so charging batteries is, to my knowledge anyway, the best way of storing electric energy there is, feel free to correct me here.
To save some on pumping up the water, temp sensors could be used to guide lowering or raising the pump's hose/pipe to find cold enough water.
/rant (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/smile.png)
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A little rant then: Like your style :-)
A little rant then: Like your style :-)
-
A little rant then:
On the bottom of a lake the temperature is about 36 - 39 F.
Using say solar energy to heat the "hot" part of a Stirling engine and pumping cold water from the bottom of the lake
for the "cold" part could then be one way of cranking up the difference in temperature, hence upping it's efficiency grade.
The downside would of course be when the sun isn't shining and/or when the lake is 'particularly' hot, drilling a hole in the ground would also be another way of getting cold water, but anyway.
The engine would of course be used to generate electric energy, if you're out to get hot water then solar energy alone would be the right way to go here.
As it "only" would give you energy in intervals then storing energy would be the way to go here, so charging batteries is, to my knowledge anyway, the best way of storing electric energy there is, feel free to correct me here.
To save some on pumping up the water, temp sensors could be used to guide lowering or raising the pump's hose/pipe to find cold enough water.
/rant (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/smile.png)
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BINGO!
Instead of solar use geothermal energy, just a thought.:D[/quote]John Howard mapped Australia Urban Geothermal 2006.
Stirling engines run a treat on CO2 gas.
Trick is to bubble exhaust gas through cold water before putting the gas back to expansion.
BINGO!
Instead of solar use geothermal energy, just a thought.:D[/quote]John Howard mapped Australia Urban Geothermal 2006.
Stirling engines run a treat on CO2 gas.
Trick is to bubble exhaust gas through cold water before putting the gas back to expansion.
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A little rant then........
Sure, geothermal energy is of course also out there, for free if you will (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/grin.gif)
Such a setup with a pump for both the hot and cold water providing energy to a Stirling engine could prove to be a total winner, provided that the generated active electric effect from the alternator driven by the Stirling engine exceeds the waterpumps total effect, the rest would then be the sweetest free electric energy you could come to think of (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/wink.png)
Much like what they could do in Iceland, only they have far shorter distances to their geothermal energies as opposed to having to drill a hole X miles down for the rest of us.....
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=769&pid=10105#pid10105
I'm still curious to why no one has found out a more efficient way of turning heat into mechanical/electric energy, it seems as though the Stirling engine is still the best option there are for achieving this.
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A little rant then........
Sure, geothermal energy is of course also out there, for free if you will (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/grin.gif)
Such a setup with a pump for both the hot and cold water providing energy to a Stirling engine could prove to be a total winner, provided that the generated active electric effect from the alternator driven by the Stirling engine exceeds the waterpumps total effect, the rest would then be the sweetest free electric energy you could come to think of (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/wink.png)
Much like what they could do in Iceland, only they have far shorter distances to their geothermal energies as opposed to having to drill a hole X miles down for the rest of us.....
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=769&pid=10105#pid10105
I'm still curious to why no one has found out a more efficient way of turning heat into mechanical/electric energy, it seems as though the Stirling engine is still the best option there are for achieving this.
There is still the "small" matter of finding the successor to the Stirling engine, the machine that turns heat, or should I say difference in heat, into mechanical energy far more efficiently compared to what any Stirling engine can do.
Once that one is found then we're one giant step forward to all the free energy we possibly could need.
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Permanent Green Power produces electricity from any heat source above -40*C. Micro or commercial with its hydro turbine powered by liquid piston, or alternate fully turbine. Giant footprints leading to the giant. However the competition to keep things as they are comes from far more than many would think.
Permanent Green Power produces electricity from any heat source above -40*C. Micro or commercial with its hydro turbine powered by liquid piston, or alternate fully turbine. Giant footprints leading to the giant. However the competition to keep things as they are comes from far more than many would think.
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A little rant then........
Sure, geothermal energy is of course also out there, for free if you will (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/grin.gif)
Such a setup with a pump for both the hot and cold water providing energy to a Stirling engine could prove to be a total winner, provided that the generated active electric effect from the alternator driven by the Stirling engine exceeds the waterpumps total effect, the rest would then be the sweetest free electric energy you could come to think of (http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/s566/4lynx4/Fun/wink.png)
Much like what they could do in Iceland, only they have far shorter distances to their geothermal energies as opposed to having to drill a hole X miles down for the rest of us.....
http://open-source-energy.org/?tid=769&pid=10105#pid10105
I'm still curious to why no one has found out a more efficient way of turning heat into mechanical/electric energy, it seems as though the Stirling engine is still the best option there are for achieving this.
There is still the "small" matter of finding the successor to the Stirling engine, the machine that turns heat, or should I say difference in heat, into mechanical energy far more efficiently compared to what any Stirling engine can do.
Once that one is found then we're one giant step forward to all the free energy we possibly could need.
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http://i1225.photobucket.com/albums/ee397/DaSEnergy/PermanentGreenPower_zps5fed1210.png
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I still think a potential difference between a cold and hot source will create electrical current .:D
:D :cool: :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple
"A thermocouple consists of two dissimilar conductors in contact, which produce a voltage when heated. The voltage produced is dependent on the difference of temperature of the junction to other parts of the circuit. Thermocouples are a widely used type of temperature sensor for measurement and control[1] and can also be used to convert a temperature gradient into electricity."
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I still think a potential difference between a cold and hot source will create electrical current .:D
:D :cool: :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple
"A thermocouple consists of two dissimilar conductors in contact, which produce a voltage when heated. The voltage produced is dependent on the difference of temperature of the junction to other parts of the circuit. Thermocouples are a widely used type of temperature sensor for measurement and control[1] and can also be used to convert a temperature gradient into electricity."
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Once upon a time I was thinking of building a large 55 gallon drum Stirling engine. The concept is a scaled up version of a twin soda can design. The pistons use a liquid (water or oil) seal.
I have generated and attached a sketch.
This design does have advantages and disadvantages:
Advantages:
Liquid sealed pistons.
Can be scaled up (more??)
Can use multiple transfer tubes to connect barrels.
Liquid heat transfer from outer barrel to tubes in center of barrel.
Interconnecting (cross tubes connected between barrels) can be thermally isolated from both the hot and cold barrel (connected with rubber tubing) to reduce conduction losses.
Cross tubes can be enclosed and insulated and will function as a regenerator.
The hot barrel could be heated by solar power, and concentrated using an array of mirrors.
The hot barrel could be insulated with a window for reflected solar input.
The cold barrel could have cooling fins on the outside.
Disadvantages:
Slosh - cannot run too fast, or extract too much torque.
A pressure bleed will be needed to reduce the operating air volume as the entire operating temperature increases - need to keep the mean liquid level inside and outside of the piston the same.
Dead space. There is dead space at the top of each piston, and in the tubing bundle. The tubing bundle should be large enough for adequate flow back and forth, as well as act as hot and cold heat exchangers, and regenerator.
Liquid in the tubes could be a big problem, possibly provide a means for a manual drain.
If anyone builds one of these monsters, I would like to see it!
Use the Excel sheet to estimate output power...
kcd