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Open - Source - Research => HHO / Browns Gas / Hydroxy / Stan Meyer => Open-Source Research => Stan Meyer WFC => Topic started by: Earl on April 14th, 2020, 01:20 PM
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To be able to continue my testing I needed a VIC which means I need ferrite cores and something to hold them. I decided to build them using ferrite pieces as I could not find anything that even came close to Stan's cores. I even was having a hard time finding a 1 to 20 step up transformer that NAV talks about in his experiments. The primary and secondary coils in the VIC will provide that. The rest of this post explains what I am using and how I am building the core holder. This is the current state of holder with some of the ferrite pieces in place. Rest of pieces are on order and I am still working of the rest of the holder including the coil sides. One positive side of this is if it works you can purchase all the ferrite pieces on eBay for less than $35 depending how you buy them. You can even build the core holder with only hand tools though I am also using shop tools as I have them.
See Core tubes completed.JPG for current status showing what I am trying to build.
I am on using the dimensions and coil information provided in this forum with the exception of the ferrite size (see below) as a starting point. Main change is to adjust holder to fit the ferrite pieces I have purchased.
I tried to find information on the ferrite cores sources and have not been able to find anything that appears to be close in size or shape. I did find in this forum where some members made a special purchase but I did not start working on this project until after that purchased was made so I am going to attempt to build my own core from pieces as I will need a gap anyway based on what I have read in this forum. My assumption is even though each ferrite half is not a solid piece I will still need a gap between the 2 halves. One of the reasons I am going to try this as looking for ferrite cores I came across a company, do not remember which one, that had a kit of ferrite parts that could be used to protype transformers. It was basically a collection of standard parts that you could put together to build cores of different sizes. For example, standard corner pieces that you could then used to stack other ferrite sections on to build a core. While it appears, this kit has been discontinued I liked the idea. So, I tried to find separate flat pieces without much luck. I even purchase some ferrite antenna rods but was not sure how I was going to do a good connection at corners. I then came across E coil transformers. They are in 2 pieces one E shaped and the second a flat bar that goes across the E. I just wanted the flat bars. I purchase 4 sets of 2 for $28 which gave me 8 flat bars. I was going to use 2 on each side. After getting them, I think I will need 4 on each long side where the coils go as each bar is slight longer than 1” but dimension of the coils is 1.3” long. This means I will need 2 more sets which give me 4 bars for the ends. Bar dimensions 4.44mm x 12.40mm x 33.19mm (0.173” x 0.488” x 1.306’’)
Note: After I finished the tubes I went back and looked at the dimensions to find the size of the coil sides and found that the dimensions of the core and tubes where much closer match that I thought them were going to be.
I thought about using my tile saw to cut of the legs of the E bars and use them for the ends but while I think that would work I not sure I what to deal with ferrite dust at the cost of 4 more is so little.
NOTE PC 40 is 2300 permeability
2pcs PC40 EI33 6+6pins Ferrite Cores bobbin, transformer core, inductor coil $28. (Link to ebay where I found them. I also have seen 5 pcs for $7 but vender was out so I purchased these. When I decided I need more I purchase 2 sets of 5 for $22 still waiting for those to come.)
As I do not have a 3D printer to make the holders for the ferrite cores I started to make them out a of ½” plastic I have had for over 15 years. I think it was used to make cutting boards not sure as it was given to me. It is slightly bigger that width of the bar so should make a nice box. I have already cut sample pieces on my table saw 2mm thick that appear to have enough structural strength. I could cut them thinner but not sure I should. I have already done a glue test using vinyl and plastic cement and an epoxy plastic cement neither worked well on this material. If I can not find a glue that works with this material, I will purchase a thin piece of plexiglass as I know I can get glue that works with it. Plexiglass may be a better option as it will be easier for me to make the coil side pieces out of it. This would also better option for people without a table saw as you can cut it with scribe tool plexiglass.
To get a nice square corner I used my small laser saw mitre box to hold pieces while glue sets. Use wax paper to keep glue off box and ferrite piece, not shown it picture. Picture below shows parts being used. There are 4 of the bars on piece in mitre box. The black pins are oval so they can be turned to clamp item being worked on.
I am hoping this will work as the cost of the spools with frame built in and the ferrite cores will be less than $100 without wire. Even if it doesn’t it will give me practice winding coils and should work well enough for me to do some testing will primary and secondary coil.
“Test of VIC spool build.jpg” shows the E pieces and how I am assembling tubes. Wrapping the tube with wax paper kept glue off ferrite pieces and gave enough space for them side after cleaning off excess glue.
I could not find a glue that work on the white material, so I make strips out of plexiglass 0.1 inch thick. I just happen to have some that I purchased at either Lowes or Home Depot (don’t remember cost guessing $20-$30). I had purchased it to go around my wife’s sew machine to close out gape between it and her sew machine cabinet. She did not need it any more has a new machine different size.
Couple of pictures of where I am at and a couple of constructions notes. I stated above I cut strips using table saw to get straight and square edges that were just slightly larger than the with of the ferrite cores then glued on caps on edges first one being glued in picture above. I then put wax paper around ferrite core and glued the other side to bottom forming a u channel. Because I did not want to try to cut the bottom and top narrow on my table saw this left a ledge on top and bottom that needs to be cut off. Tried to do it on my table was but without make a special gig it did not work very well had get my fingers to close to blade. Instead I use my disk sander and that worked well. I also used my disk sander to bevel the edge to top and bottom pieces to 45 degrees about half the thickness of sheet. I then used a small file to round the edges that worked very well. You could do all this just using a file or sandpaper, but the disk sander made it go much quicker. Note: If you have problem making straight edges you could use factory edge and glue that side to piece next piece is then glued to second. Keep doing this going the same way. Last piece is then glue to third piece and first piece’s factory edge. You will have 4 pieces sticking out from tube that can them be trimmed back not critical as these edges will not be glued and will be rounded anyway. Just want to point out this can all be done with hand tools just takes longer. I will use coping saw to cutout hole for the coil sides.
The “Core piece and side tubes full size.JPG” picture shows one of the small files I used and the wood piece I made to push ferrites in and out of the tubes. I do not have all the ferrite pieces yet, but I just ordered 10 more from eBay $22. “Core pieces inside tubes.jpg” show ferrite pieces inside tubes to show what it will look like; the end ferrites are just setting on a piece of plexiglass as I had not finished those tubes yet. Note: The picture shows the ferrite overlap and the extra space needed for the side of the end tub (see small piece of Plexiglas on left side sticking up). “Core pieces inside tubes.jpg” shows what it will look like front the ends.
“Core tubes completed.JPG” shows all 4 tubes with some pieces to show layout – waiting for more pieces to arrive. Pieces on the ends need to stick out slightly to make good contact with side pieces. Have not started on coil sides yet or brackets to hold it all together. I plan to add means of putting pressure on sides and ferrite pieces to keep ferrite contact tight. (I dropped one of the pieces and it broke, but I ordered extras). I left the side tubes long for now as not sure how big of a gap I will need. Though I expect that if I make the side tubes flush with the outside of end tubes I will have enough room to have a big enough gap but no one ever provide gap size information that I can find. Current layout is for zero gap on sides. I will need something to go into gape in middle of the 4 side pieces not sure what I will use yet. I currently plan to just let the side pieces stick out slight past end ferrite but you could add spacer on inside edges of end tube where plastic is sticking up in the end view picture. This would make ends flush. Could do this on just one end and use a spacer the same thickness of the gap in the side pieces or both ends if you need a larger gap.
Next steps is to build the coil sides pieces should be fairly each using drill and coping swap. Drill four corners and use saw to get holes slight smaller than needed. Then file to correct side. I know this works as that is how I make plexiglass piece for my wife’s sewing machine.
I am also working on make a coil winder setup to hold the tubes. I have a coil winder, but shaft is two big to fit into tubes. I am making a holder on a separate shaft that will be driven by a toothed drive belt. I am using toothed gears of the same size so I can use the counter on the coil winder. Gears I purchase come is same outside dimension and tooth count but have different inside dimensions. Made by 3M found them on Amazon had to drill out the one for the coil winder as it not metric but found one that was close in size. That project still in work designing and testing as I go.
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NIce Earl
We have several cores , flat and large also e cores ,
I can plan after lock down to send some if you like
Dan
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https://youtu.be/DKtLhQ7tpZM
Comment from the Description of this video
My setup in April 2020 after many changes:
-New drive circuit provides a variety of functions and adjustments
-Ryobi 18V battery + programmable power supply makes setup more portable
-VIC made from Mn-Zn 10mmx100mm ferrite rods provides more accurate inductance's with similar
turns and resistance values as Stan's original VIC
BradK
5 days ago
Yeah, this tech like Stan mentioned
is a work of systems engineering. Change one component or value
and the system doesn't work. My work all along
has been trying to design a VIC... someday I might get there.
nice use of AM radio ferrite rods
Reply
Hide reply
BradK
5 days ago
Thanks. Their cheap too and give much closer
values (without gapping) than any other core I've tried.
Cool. Nice to know #1 gour still kicking! #2
you are healthy, without health you have nothing,
#3 you are sharing as you go along.
I have not bought cores yet or wound spools.
Have wire, but you previously had a different core.
You decided to go with this core because?
These cores have a lower AL value than all the
others I've tried plus a much larger winding window.
So, these cores give me much closer inductance values
for the same amount of turns and resistance than Stan
had in his VIC.
Ok. I will have to build a core and spools. I have a cell built. I got a scope 4 channels now I have a board from R. Need to order parts for it. Where did you get your cores and corner pieces?
Greenenergytech2013 at gmail dot com if you care to point me in some directions for materials.
Bought the cores on ebay. Made the corner pieces on my 3d printer. Let me know if you want I'll upload the files if not I could send some to you.
Paul Kainer
5 days ago
@BradK let me know how much. I can e transfer you the money?
Reply
Paul Kainer
5 days ago
@BradK if you printed the spools I would buy them too. I was trying to follow Ronnie Walker in the past but he has been quiet for a long time now. Not sure what happened
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Dan thanks for posting this. These look like the rods I purchased just longer. I was not sure how I was going to build mounts for these reason I decided to start with flat pieces. He says he is not using gap. It is my understanding that gap serves 2 purposes 1) lowers AL value and 2) is used to do coarse adjustment of the phase offset of signal. Ronny Walker talked about that in his thread comment about gap by him for example
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #606, on November 11th, 2016, 11:33 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 11:35 AM
Getting back to Stan's Vic, can everyone see how the gap between the cores controls the coupling from the Primary to the Secondary which in return controls and fine tunes the voltage in the secondary and L1. And if you follow through with this to the positive plate, it also fine tunes the charge on that plate.
It would be easy to create a gap with setup by using two shorter rods on sides with coils instead of one long rod.
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Hmm just read about how it is hard to even find a 1 to 20 step-up transformer. In my own experiments I was having trouble finding a HV source, that allows me to adjust voltage, frequency and have it all delivered with a pulse through one terminal.
So what I have now is a "cap charger" from ebay providing 0-800V DC. I make&break that with a mosfet circuit driver circuit and the output goes to a MOT primary. Secondary has one leg attached to he transformer core and the pulses come out the other.
I mean it can't take "everything" you throw at it, but I think it is a versatile pulse source for experiments. Burned my first driver circuit by using a 60V max mosfet... Also you might get insulation melting and arcing if you really start putting energy through it
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Continued work on ferrite core holders building the coil sides. I cut the plexiglass to close to the correct size and squared them up and ground them down to desired size with disk sander. While I used a power mitre saw to do ruff sizing you need to be very careful when working with plexiglass or anything this small. The coping saw I used to cut on hole actually would do this job.
The Cutting out hole.JPG shows the four counter holes you need to turn the coping saw. Done on my drill press. I set the back distance then just move plate to dill the holes it was quick. The box lines are the size of the tubes. I used them to locate the drill hole and then cut inside line with coping saw. I then filed hole down to fit tube. This ensured that hole was a tight fit.
The Drill hole for saw blade.JPG show larger hole being drill needed to get coping saw blade into plate.
Cutting out hole.JPG show hole being cut out with coping saw. This was the first plate I did once this one was finished; I drilled all the plates then took vise off drill press as it was easier to saw the hole with vise clamped to table. I used first plate as guide to file down hole in remaining plates when it got close used tube to check hole so I got a very snug fit.
Side tube with coil sides.JPG show on of the side tubes with coil sides installed. With the snug fit I used gel super glue to glue plates to tube. That gave me enough working time install the plates and get them square.
Next step is to finish coil winder that will hold the tubes while wind the coils.
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Earl,
First off- nice work. This hobby can be extremely time consuming as you know. I can tell you put many hours into that design, it looks really well done.
I am BradK on youtube, I made that video Dan posted. I have been doing tests with and without gaps in the cores. Mostly what I'm trying to find is an off the shelf core that will give me the right balance. What I have found is that most off the shelf ferrite cores have AL values that are much too high, honestly I'd be surprised if any of them worked. So far I think the rods (or the flat bar your using) have the best chance of working.
The problem I'm having-You can gap any core and get the right inductance values, but the gap creates an invisible inductance and if it's too high it will take all the voltage. I posted a video on this a while back on how the leakage inductance is so high my tests showed I needed a load impedance of greater than 1M ohm just to get the voltage from the turns ratio across the load. I thought by getting current flowing the gas bubbles at electrodes would restrict current enough to allow the process to begin but my research since then says otherwise.
Also- Do you have a 3D printer?
I bought one last August for $123 with shipping. Definitely worth it. After fixing a few problems on it it's worked great ever since. I use Tinkercad (free online 3d modeling program) to design my bobbins etc. A 3D printer is the most useful thing I have bought for SM research so far.
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I will admit I am not sure this will work but needed something to continue testing. I also need to become more familiar with impedance matching. To do this I was going to try and do the experiments Nav suggested in his recent AM post but I could not find even a transformer with the right size primary and secondary. If nothing else this should provide that piece and give me more experience in wind coils.
If you have not looked at Nav's AM post I do recommend it. He does a nice job explaining the need for doing 2 impedance matching steps. One for the primary and secondary to generate the core flux and the second to match chokes to cells. He shows how a resistor or proper cell load does the first one. Using correct resistor solves the problem of being able to generate the high voltages. You can have resister in circuit with cell but the resister is not need if cell has correct low impendence load.
I do not have a 3D printer have looked at them and have followed Russ's build as I find them interesting just have not had a need for one and most are expensive. Where did you find the printer you purchased?
Your are correct this does take a lot time but I am retired and need something to do so time is not an issue for me. Just wish more people were still active in here so I could get more advice about what I am doing. I have already build and tested most of Stan's GM so this is the next step.
I will take a look at your posts on youtube thanks for the reference.
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Bought my 3D printer on ebay. It's a Qidi X-one2. When I first got it I was surprised at how easy they are to use. Should have bought one years ago as it would have saved me alot of time waiting for bobbins and other parts to come in the mail.
Yeah check my channel on youtube just search BradK.
I will be doing a video soon on my VIC drive circuit.
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Hms,
can you post the 3dprint file for the rod holder &
corners please so we can try use the round ferrite
i think it is a beter method for kids and hobbyists to start on it with.
Daniel
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Here you go.
Keep in mind these are cheap cores-and their made cheap too.
Many of them are not straight and have edges on them, you'll probably have to file the rods and sand the inside of the holes to get them to fit.
That's what I had to do anyways. Also, you can easily cut these cores with a dremel with a diamond cutoff wheel but wear a mask or protect yourself from the dust because its very fine and gets everywhere. I cut my side rods shorter with no problems.
-Brad
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Cool HMS Great
How about the near prefect round bobbins and spacers they look awesomee
3d printed? file
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hope we see more people try using these round rods
Note =VIC made from Mn-Zn 10mmx100mm ferrite rods provides more accurate inductance's with similar
Sourced Ebay These cores have a lower AL value than all the others I've tried plus a much larger winding window. So, these cores give me much closer inductance values for the same amount of turns and resistance than Stan had in his VIC.
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This is my coil winder with the mount I made to hold the VIC tube. Coil winder has counter and can be used either 1 to 1 or 1 to 8. The drive gears on new mount were selected to maintain this ratio. See Coil winder with VIC Tube.jpg The item laying on the base is used to wind fishing flies. I cut off the wires and just used tube. I needed this mount to hold the rectangle tube to keep tube centered and because hole in tube is too small to fit shaft of coil winder. There at 2 flange bearings in each post to keep things straight. I was concerned about the tension on belt causing problems without them. Purchased them on Amazon. These match 4mm hole on one of the drive gears. I just used a 4mm screw to mount gear and wood box holding tube.
F695-2RS Bearing 5x13x4mm Flanged Miniature F695-RS Deep Groove Ball Bearings F695RS for VORON Mobius 2/3 3D Printer (Pick of 10Pcs)
I purchase the drive gears and belt on Amazon. Kit Befenybay 2 Kit GT2 Synchronous Wheel 20&36 Teeth 8mm Bore Aluminum Timing Pulley with 2 pcs Length 200mm Width 6mm Belt (20-36T-8B-6)
Kit came with 2 large gears 2 small gears and belt. I did purchase 2 different kits one for each size shaft, I used larger gear from each set this allowed me to keep the ratios the same as outside diameter is the same.
You can see it the tube better in the “Coil winder closeup of tube mount.jpg”. The mount holding the tube manually swings left and right to guide the wire on to the coil though the tube. While there is a slight arc during this movement it should not be a problem. I used this tube as it has a ceramic tip and should protect the coating on the wire. There are two bearings in the front mount top and bottom and a hole in the mount for the wire to feed though.
This mount can be moved over, and I drilled holes so it can be centered on each of the 3 coils spools.
The next step is to build a bracket to hold the spool of wire. This should be easy, and I will provide a means of keeping tension on wire, so it spools cleanly.
Most likely with need more wire as I only have a pound. Wanted to make sure I could build a coil before I ordered more.
The rest of the ferrite pieces I ordered from eBay arrived, so I have all those I need.
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NIce
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Now I am back to the issue of how many turns to put on each coil. I plan on winding the coils based on the following post as I do not recall anything thing else that gave the number of turns for the primary and secondary.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #298, on October 31st, 2016, 07:10 PM »Last edited on October 31st, 2016, 07:17 PM
Threw this together to work through the impedance matching. Hopefully it's helpful.
The way I did this is to have a manual turns ratio, then a calculated turns ratio using Ronnie's formulas. You can use Excel to goal-seek so that the two values are equal. That will find the values you can build around. Base everything you do off the primary and you should be good to go.
This was one source I looked at. This is close but Stan’s primary was 10.5 ohms so another 12 turns would give 10.5 ohms matching Stan’s value.
After thinking about this for several days while I like the analysis, I do not feel it matches the cores I built. Mine are rectangle and follow the dimensions in the Project Icoros closely. So, I am going to try to use 540 turns.
I am using 29 gage wire which is 81.83 ohms/1000ft or .08183 ohms/foot. So, if I am only off a few feet it should not have much of impact on resistance value.
Remember we are using a 220-ohm resister in parallel across the primary coil. Goal is to create a 10-volt load on system. Using the formula for parallel resistors 220 ohms in parallel primary gives values in following table for different values of coils resistance on top:
10.1 10.2 10.3 10.4 10.5 10.6 10.7 10.8 10.9
9.675 9.767 9.859 9.95 10.04 10.13 10.22 10.32 10.41
Next couple of references explain why you need 220-ohm resistor and 30:1 ratio
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #12, on December 2nd, 2015, 07:40 PM »Last edited on December 2nd, 2015, 07:45 PM
No really it runs cool not warm at all. If you take Stan's primary which is 10.5 ohms when you do the math on impedance on the primary you will find that it needs to be 10 ohms. (10.5 and 220 ohms in parallel = 10 ohms) So placing a 220-ohm resistor across the primary it bring it right down to where it needs to be.
Working toward 30:1 ratio see explanation from Ronnie below
Re: WATER FUEL CELL Technical Brief (Building, Testing and Understanding Stan's Work)
« Reply #1780, on December 22nd, 2014, 05:42 PM »Last edited on December 22nd, 2014, 08:48 PM
@ Webmug, When you add the total Z which you have at 219.2 ohms 220 just to round numbers excluding the Re of the water. Now you are saying the resistance of your water is 1972 ohms. Stan does not want the (R) resistance of the water, He is wanting the (Re) of the water. The Re of the water can be anywhere from 70 to 80 which is the Dielectric Constant of water. Stan say's the Re is 78.54 at 25C. Now let's add 220 total coil resistance, and 80 Re dielectric of water. Now we have the total Z which is 300. We now can divide 300/10.5 which = 28.57 so we have a 28.57/1 ratio. Odd ratio, now how do we fix this odd ratio. Simple just like Stan did........put a 220 ohm resistor across the primary.... Now we have a 220 ohm resistor in parallel with a 10.5 ohm coil.... Now what does this give us? It changes the 10.5 ohms in the primary to 10 ohms. Now we have 300/10 which equals 30:1 ratio. There you go now you have another piece of the mystery. You could have found this information at http://app.hydrofuel.ca Webmug when you get everything worked out you will see why you cannot use 1 cell to get this to work. There is now way because the capacitance is too high in the cell. Just keep working it out and you will see what I am talking about...Your doing a great Job as I have said before. Keep it up and don't give up, you have come to far.
To get started I wound 540 turns on 29 gage wire on primary spool. I was able to get first row to lay down smoothly went pretty fast as spool winder has an 1 to 8 ratio. It was almost impossible to do get other rows as smooth it is hard to see that small of wire. When I got done, I measured the resistance and got 8.4 ohms. Which means that I had just slightly more than 100 ft of wire on the spool, so I need either change wire size or add more turns. I did check 30 gage wire and 540 turns would be closer to 10.5 as it is 10.32 ohms per 100ft.
Advantage of 29 gage wire is it can handle 1.2 amps where 30 gage wire current limit is 0.86 amps. I seem to remember people were using 30 gage because they could not find 29 gage wire. Will have to see if I can find the discussion on wire size and turns ratios to see what I should be using.
Good new is coil winder setup is working though I may need to add method to measure length so I can get the right resistance.
Impendence matching is really not my thing but I understand it is important in this systems. At this point I am not sure I can just wind enough wire to get the right resistance or do I also need to have the right turns ratios. I know the choke coils need to have close turns ratios and need to be adjusted to match impedance. Just not sure right now if primary and secondary need a fixed ratio.
Oh well I building and testing to learn things.
Pictures of building first cut of primary coil
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I just found post were Ronnie recommended 29 gage wire which is why I purchased some. There are numbers for 30 gage in this thread as well. I am going to re-read by collection of comments from this thread as it has directions on how to wire up coils as well.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #590, on November 11th, 2016, 08:47 AM »Last edited on November 11th, 2016, 08:49 AM
29 gauge is the best it has a 1.2 amp rating, since we need 1 amp. 30 gauge is under rated it is only good for .86 amps. So a balance between 28 and 30 gauge is 29 gauge if you can get it. If you can't get 29 gauge, I would shoot for 28 gauge for it has an amp rating of 1.4 amps.
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Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #72, on October 24th, 2016, 03:03 PM »Last edited on October 24th, 2016, 03:10 PM
Quote from X-Blade on October 24th, 2016, 02:30 PM
Ronnie, Is that second stage (resonance) automatic when the voltage goes up to a certain level or we have to do something special?
We can clearly hear Stan saying that resonance superimposes the particle impact to the polarization process rising the yield of gas production (New Zealand house meeting video)
You want that resonance to occur at your peak voltage applied to the primary and not before. That way you get all the high voltage you can produce on the secondary side when it goes into resonance. The leakage current is what's controlled from 2 to 11 or 12 volts. it's automatic once tuned the L1 choke and cells has to be designed to setup the amp leakage along with Frequency.
Let's take Stan's primary for instance:
It has 10.5 ohms in the coil of wire used because he wants a 500 turn on the primary.
The wire he uses is rated at 1.2 amps. in order to get 1.2 amp in the primary you just take 10.5 ohms and a 220 ohm resistor in parallel with the coil and it will give you 1/(1/220+1/10.5)= 9.97 close enough to 10 ohms then you take 12volts/10ohms=1.2 amps
You don't want to fool with your turn count ratio.
I went back and re-read my collection of notes from the thread above. And 500 turns could be correct for 29 gate wire if the diameter of the coil is larger than mine. Will need to do some checking Ronnie in another post shows how to calculate turns ratios using watts in and watts out. It’s possible I just need to use more turns as long as I get the proper turns ratio.
There is a lot of information in this thread that I had forgotten. Talks about using different gape sizes legs of core to adjust voltage on plates B+ and B- (which need to be different) as well as using winding on L1 and L2 coils to get voltages correct.
Ronnie stated need to have pressure on cell to keep charge on cell so process does not need to start from scratch. As well as having 1.23 volts on cell at all times when running. When off the pressure keeps cell charged.
Also has the information on how to wire coils properly and says to use timing 41hz to charge cell.
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reading
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Dan,
I hope you get as much out re-reading this thread as I did this time. While I have read this thread several times and each time, I read it something else sinks in. I picked up on the gas pressure because you posted you were working on the gas regulator board. Also, in replies to that someone posted one of Stan’s video about someone coming to see is work and I noticed that his cells were sealed and had a pressure gage on it. So, Ronnie’s comment about pressure being required really sunk in because I was thinking about looking at pressure. Thing is I had already highlighted in my collection of posts as being important. Pressure does 2 things causes gas to flow and keeps water level down. I expect it also reduces shock of stopping system just like air in a water tank.
Coulomb’s law is another case, Ronnie states you will never get system work if you do not understand it. Stan referenced it in his documents and Puharich shows the math that needs to be solved. They say it needs to be solved but do not really say how system does that. When I read thread, this time it sunk in. System need to be close to resonance but charge on cell walls need to be different. Ronnie’s comments on different gapes sizes in core legs and different winding on chokes show how to do you do that. If I understand correctly, you are able to do that in this system because of the gapes between cores and because the Primary and C1 are one core and Secondary and C2 are on the other.
It also became clearer that you need to design system to do several things at the same time. Get to resonance to produce a lot of gas. But it needs to be high energy gas Ronnie talks about be able to use all the energy, balance system to be fully in resonance at 10-12 volt input and not before. It also must be constantly conditioning the water and it appears an ideal resonance system does not do that, you need some leakage to do the conditioning. If I understand Nav’s post in his thread about AM signal you also need leakage to keep your voltage levels high by providing “ohm” resistance to maintain flux levels. Ronnie shows you need to maintain impedance balance through system. He show how you use ohms law to match load to source.
I would guess more of this sunk in this time was I am just starting to look at the coils up to now I have been more focus in understand the signal wave forms and how they were generated. Personal interest, as I have never really like impendence issues even when studying electrical engineering in college.
Dan the item below is for Ronne’s other thread I copied out my other collection. I still have not figured out why this important other than you need even number of cells. Do you know what he is getting at? Only thing I can think of is total resistance of the cells as talks about using that in determining the 30 to 1 ratio.
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #13, on December 3rd, 2015, 04:23 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2015, 04:40 AM
Nav, As you reverse engineer the VIC transformer I would like to give you a very important hint. At the same time you must reverse engineer the CELL at the same time. If you don't, the reversed engineered VIC will be useless as you have seen in the past that everyone has tried to replicate. Keep this number (10) in the back of your mind at all times while your reading and doing your research. Stan used (10) Cells in series with his VIC for a very very important reason. No one will ever be able to scale the VIC and Cell up or down unless they stumble upon why (10) cells were used in series. Just keep (10) in your mind at all times, it is a very important number while you’re doing your impedance matching research. This is one of the most useful post I have ever posted, and will determine if you or anyone are successful or not.
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yes there must be a signal to the board for it to starrt working
the gate board will not work without putting a signal on the pin from the gas feedback
to the pin on the gate board.
It just sensed the pressure in the cell. As the pressure drops\
it increases the voltage to the cell and also shortens the gate time on the gate board.
As the pressure increases it just does opposite
Dan
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Dan,
I hope you get as much out re-reading this thread as I did this time. While I have read this thread several times and each time, I read it something else sinks in. I picked up on the gas pressure because you posted you were working on the gas regulator board. Also, in replies to that someone posted one of Stan’s video about someone coming to see is work and I noticed that his cells were sealed and had a pressure gage on it. So, Ronnie’s comment about pressure being required really sunk in because I was thinking about looking at pressure. Thing is I had already highlighted in my collection of posts as being important. Pressure does 2 things causes gas to flow and keeps water level down. I expect it also reduces shock of stopping system just like air in a water tank.
Coulomb’s law is another case, Ronnie states you will never get system work if you do not understand it. Stan referenced it in his documents and Puharich shows the math that needs to be solved. They say it needs to be solved but do not really say how system does that. When I read thread, this time it sunk in. System need to be close to resonance but charge on cell walls need to be different. Ronnie’s comments on different gapes sizes in core legs and different winding on chokes show how to do you do that. If I understand correctly, you are able to do that in this system because of the gapes between cores and because the Primary and C1 are one core and Secondary and C2 are on the other.
It also became clearer that you need to design system to do several things at the same time. Get to resonance to produce a lot of gas. But it needs to be high energy gas Ronnie talks about be able to use all the energy, balance system to be fully in resonance at 10-12 volt input and not before. It also must be constantly conditioning the water and it appears an ideal resonance system does not do that, you need some leakage to do the conditioning. If I understand Nav’s post in his thread about AM signal you also need leakage to keep your voltage levels high by providing “ohm” resistance to maintain flux levels. Ronnie shows you need to maintain impedance balance through system. He show how you use ohms law to match load to source.
I would guess more of this sunk in this time was I am just starting to look at the coils up to now I have been more focus in understand the signal wave forms and how they were generated. Personal interest, as I have never really like impendence issues even when studying electrical engineering in college.
Dan the item below is for Ronne’s other thread I copied out my other collection. I still have not figured out why this important other than you need even number of cells. Do you know what he is getting at? Only thing I can think of is total resistance of the cells as talks about using that in determining the 30 to 1 ratio.
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #13, on December 3rd, 2015, 04:23 AM »Last edited on December 3rd, 2015, 04:40 AM
Nav, As you reverse engineer the VIC transformer I would like to give you a very important hint. At the same time you must reverse engineer the CELL at the same time. If you don't, the reversed engineered VIC will be useless as you have seen in the past that everyone has tried to replicate. Keep this number (10) in the back of your mind at all times while your reading and doing your research. Stan used (10) Cells in series with his VIC for a very very important reason. No one will ever be able to scale the VIC and Cell up or down unless they stumble upon why (10) cells were used in series. Just keep (10) in your mind at all times, it is a very important number while you’re doing your impedance matching research. This is one of the most useful post I have ever posted, and will determine if you or anyone are successful or not.
We can note each component has inherent capacitence , resistors, and transitors, you can get parts with out capacitence, but most supplier never put a lc meter on them, to know ,
Ronnie may be reffering to the fact that the cell has a resistance value and a combined coupling frequency RF ,
which steams from that capcitence (cll ni series) parts in series..
there are frequency matching circuits
knowing that parts can have high capacentence is some thing a radio engineer would know when tuning rf and PLL ranges to lock in .
Dan
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one may want to listen to Don Smith videos and his Comments about Resistence capacitence charts from the
Amuetur radio association to find frequencys ranges.
DD
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#10 also shows up in Ronnie post
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #54, on December 5th, 2015, 08:01 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 08:36 AM
What is the Total Z of this circuit using Stan's formulas? You can work out the Z value of the L1 and L2 along with the capacitance value from the chart below and the formulas from the Tech Brief Eq 1,8,9. This will be with air core values. I would like to see everyone's answer; this could show how everyone has a different answer. Also notice where the #(10) shows up.
Only thing I see 10 of is the ohms for the cells. (could Re be a factor of 10??)
Also I find it interesting that I appears many people do not seem to build the feedback coil even though Ronnie uses the Z value in all his calculations including the turns calculations.
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Once I figured out I need to add more turns to primary to get 10.5 ohms of resistance I became worried about turns ratio. The process looked right is excel spread sheet above I did not trust the turns ratios was correct, so I went back to Ronnie’s other thread and found this. Which shows I need a ratio of 5.567 to 1. Will not know if I get close enough until I actually wind the wire. I plan to start out with primary winding know length of wire that is equal to 10.5 ohms. Coil winder will then give me number of turns for this resistance. Will do the same for secondary to see how close I get turns ratio. There were comments about being something than you have to play with to get correct. Given a fix resistance and fixed turns ratio only thing in this system I can see you can change is spool width. I expect the changing the secondary would have the most effect do to increased length of each turn as you add more wire. There is some discussion about this issue in the thread.
In this post he also explains coil relation to secondary and goal of getting voltage potential across coil plates.
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #257, on October 30th, 2016, 07:36 PM »Last edited on November 13th, 2016, 02:32 PM
Using Stan's Vic and the numbers Don gave us as an example, I will attempt to show how to impedance match it all.
Question is what is the purpose of Impedance matching?
The answer is Watts in must equal Watts out. (Isn't that right Mr. Watts: clap:)
Let's start with the Primary, I have already show it has 10 ohms of impedance in it and how it is calculated.
Line(Primary) side=10 ohms
12volts/10ohms=1.2amps
1.2amps*12volts=14.4watts
Next we use a transformer (Amplifier) to match the Load side.
we need to know the total resistance of the load side.
Secondary side= 72.4+76.7+70.1+Re78.54+11.5=310 ohms
Now that we have a total resistance of the line side of 10ohms
and a total resistance of the load side of 310ohms
Next we take the 310ohms and 10ohms and use this formula to get the turn ratio.
Ns/Np=sqrt Zs/Zp sqrt (310/10)=5.567
So we need a turn ratio of 5.567 to 1
We know our line voltage is 12volts We can times this by the turn ratio of 5.567 which is =66.816 Load Voltage
Now we have our load voltage.
Next we calculate the load watts
using formula (66.816 ^2)/310ohms= 14.4 watts
That's how you do it. :bliss:
Matt, The 11.5 is the feedback coil.....and yes that is correct the chokes must match the secondary....That's why if you take turns off the L2 they must be added back to L1. In Stan's example secondary is 73ohms close enough, then 76ohm for the L1 and 70 for L2 if you take 3ohms off the L1 and put that 3 ohms back on the L2 you can see they all match to 73ohms. Why does he do this? It's to get the slight potential difference in voltage needed on the chokes. Yea My brain can't keep all this straight, that's the reason for the spreadsheet. Too much math to deal with all at the same time. Now you can see when someone ask me a question, how my brain gets all scrambled.
End Thread Comment
Before doing anything else I decided to see what my systems would look like with 29 gage wire. I used the information from the primary coil I wound to estimate the ohms per turn and came up 0.0156omhs/ft. (Coil I wound was 8.4 ohms and 540 turns so I divided 8.4/540 to get this estimate). I then used this number to estimate the number of turns required to get the required ohms for each coil. Finally, I added all the secondary side turns include the one for Re and divided it my primary turns and got 29.45143. This is close to 30 a 30:1 ratio. I am not sure if this is correct but none of the other ratios seemed correct. I include Re even though there is not a coil for it as Re ohm value was include by Ronnie in doing his calculations and it did not seem right to leave it out. I do know there will be some changes in value as length of turn on larger coils will be slightly longer which should reduce number of turns required to reach desired ohm value.
Table below is from my excel sheet I used repeat Ronnie’s calculations. I find do the calculations myself helps me understand where numbers come from and why. Again, the turns work at this point is an estimate to see if I was even in the right ball part.
As the above table gave close to a 1:30 ratio I will continue winding coils to see what results I actually get. As I want to get keep the ohm values close to numbers above, I am planning on winding the number of feet of wire that should give me desired ohm value. This means I will need a method to accurately determine desire length of each coil. To do this I build a jig that I can wind wire on. It will be two spools 5 feet apart mounted on a board, so each wrap is 10 feet long. Using spools this far apart I should be easily able to fit the longest length.
Note: There was some discussion in the thread about dealing with turns ratio and resistance mainly that one effects the other. Discussion did not say which is more important other than Ronnie’s comment to not mess with turns ratio. See his discussion on keeping Secondary, C1 and C2 ohms around 73 ohms and taking turns off C2 and putting them on to keep total ohm value of those two coils at average of 73 ohms. i.e. for each turn taken off C2 one needs to be put back on C1. Which means you need to have enough wire available to do that. It was recommended that you leave wire on C1 and C2 long enough to adjust the balance which means you should have some length of wire that is not on the coils. This means you will have some wire and ohms that are not in turns calculation. Extra wire resistance is this there until satisfied with balance, but it will not be in magnetic field, so I am not sure how to account for this.
At this point I still do not have cells, just trying to understand why this piece is the way it is and if I can build it correctly even though I understand adjustment of C1 and C2 require properly configured cells. Ronnie even states you need to start with cells and build to them not the other way around as they define load you trying to balance.
I have rewound about 70 feet of wire that I took off the primary coil on to the Feedback coil as I calculated half of 11.5 was slightly over 70 feet. Turned out to be slight less than 70 feet to give 5.75 ohms (measured). Once I add the center tap for the 5-volt offset I will add another 70 feet. Turns actual wire resistance is slightly high that estimated reference number I was using.
I wound it this way a that is what circuit diagram shows. I think I read others have wound both wire at the same time. I have been trying to figure out which is the correct way and it may not matter the way it is connect to K14. Voltage difference is not issue as it phasing of the signal is what is being used.
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Nice post to expand on well done,
notes
there are several versions
we can note
Woodsite stated it can be a mechanical oscillationstep charge with tap voltage on transformer
Petlov stated that option is to put addional bifilar between toroid & chokes and cell
a Multi Sppol bifilar wound bobbin may acomplish both in some assembly versions
D
Links
Spool https://www.hot-rod-usa.com/copy-of-vic-bobbin-style-1
Circuit Wodside petlov https://www.hot-rod-usa.com/modern-circut-drawings
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Maybe HMS would like to comment on this
Also I find it interesting that I appears many people do not seem to build the feedback coil
even though Ronnie uses the Z value in all his calculations including the turns calculations.
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Hi Earl ,
now you have measured
Any pictures of your bobbins finished being wound ?
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I have put it aside for a few other personal projects. Have been looking at it again the last week or so. I currently have half the wire on feedback coil with remaining wire ready to be wound. Then primary and secondary coils should not take to long. Plan on doing some test after that to look at signals. Not sure I have correct wire for chokes. I do not thing what I have will stand up to high voltages. Also have been thinking how to check for the required voltage differential needed on the output of the coils. Make need to buy a differential probe for my scope to do that.
Articles in here say you need to have this but none that I was tell show how to check for it or what changes to make to correct it if is not correct. I am assuming you take coils off one choke and put on the other.
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Well I wound both the feed back coil and the primary. I measured the length of the wire based on the manufactures ohms per foot then cut wire to nearest 10ft mark on the high side. I then wound the wire on the spool and cut off wire until I got the desired ohm value. Note: As this is a low ohm value resistance of the leads on the meter needs to be taken into account. Mine are about 0.2 ohms. After winding coils a when back to pictures in forum so see which way to hook up the primary. I had forgot what the S and F labels meant S - Start and F - Finish also the Dot goes on with S and direction of wind only then needs to be the same to keep the Dot on the same side. I had initially wound both coils clockwise start from the right side. While this would work it did not match the picture and to avoid confusing myself when hooking things up. I rewound both coils clockwise but starting from left side of spool.
Picture from this post
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #120, on October 27th, 2016, 03:00 PM »Last edited on October 29th, 2016, 02:21 PM
Interesting the feedback coil has 600 turns for 11.5 ohms and the primary 680 for 10.5 ohms.
My next question was how does the primary coil hooked up to the VIC circuit. The Project Icoros diagram I have showing bobbin size, coil layout and information on turns and ohm values also label S as - and F as + so I checked my VIC outputs where the primary will be connected with a volt meter. The Analog side is + so the F side of coil will be connected to it. The Digital side was - so the S side of coil will be connect to it (- side also has the 5A1KV connect to it).
Now I do not think primary coil cares which way it is hooked up as the flux with cycle in both directions. Still I wanted to define how I hooked it up so I have a base line.
The Project Icoros diagram also labelled feedback S as + and F as - so I will use these setting as the initial connections for the inputs to K14.
Next step will be wind the secondary coil as it is on the same frame. It then plan to do tests with primary and feedback coils without the secondary hooked up.
Purpose of that test is to take a look at signals to primary coil and allow me to do initial testing of the feedback circuit which I have not been able to do.
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nice update
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Wound the primary coil 680 turns for 10.5 ohms estimate was 128.31 ft. I wound it slightly longer then took off wire until I had the desired ohms.
Then I wound the secondary coil estimate was 884.74 feet. I again would slightly longer and took off wire until I had the desired ohms. It took 3150 turns.
I am not sure it this will give the correct turns ratio, but this is what I got with configuration I am using. Have been wondering how to adjust ratio if not correct. As I have said before coils are not my thing I can wind them not sure I understand them.
In the process of adding leads to hook up primary and feedback coils to circuit boards. I ran out of solder I though I had another tube turns out it just the tube.
I also purchased some brass shim stock from Amazon to use as spacers for the gap between the cores. Ronnie recommended bass or copper in one of his posts when he was talking about adjusting the phase difference between the two chokes.
Goodson Brass Shim Stock Assortment | 5 Pack | 4 x 6 in. | .001.002.003.005 and .010 in. Thick
I do not recall anyone providing an estimate of what the gap size should be. Ronnie talked about changing by .001 but only one side but not what total gap should be. Not sure how to test to determine proper gap size.
Note: I designed my setup to allow the ferrite pieces on each side to be easily slid out so I can easily change the spacers. Plan is to have a screw on one or both ends of tube to keep pressure on spacers and ensure there are no other gaps between the pieces.
Picture shows the Primary on right Feedback in Middle and Secondary on left before wrapping with tape. Primary has temporary tape to keep wire in place while winding other two coils. I have added pig tails to Primary and Feedback but have not yet put on shrink-wrap tape to protect solder connections. It also has the brass plates I will cut down for spaces.
Plan to use a resistor on secondary for initial testing as I want to take a look at wave forms and make sure feedback coil is working properly before making coke which will both be on other tube.
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nice
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Finished winding Primary, Feedback and Secondary Coils. See Picture have added leads and put cores in tube. Currently no gap. For reference I place end tubes, one with cores, and other side in photo. I plan on doing some testing with just the finished side to see wave forms. I want to verify that Feedback works before I get to far. After that test I plan on hooking secondary up to a resistor to check that is working and to again check wave form. At that point is should be the same as primary output with higher voltage.
One of the tests I plan on doing is to see what the gap does does to the output of the secondary.
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I am posting preliminary Feedback Coil tests to show the wave form out of the coil to the Pulse Sensing Board. So this would be input to that board. The main board frequency generator is not currently working correctly so it is putting out 41.67Hz pulse. I believe that is also causing the large bump and start of each pulse. I will post updated traces later. Also no choke in system at this point just primary, secondary and feedback coils.
Photos show both the positive and negative pulse out of the feedback with both the digital and analog signals. I only have a duel channel scope so can not get all three signals on the scope at the same time.
The scope with the purple trace is the math function A-B for the positive and negative FB signals. I did this as this is the function performed by the Op Amp on the pulse board to generate signal going to Resonance Sensing board.
Note: The 5v offset in the FB pulses (required as the GND reference on pulse sensing board is 0v instead of -12v).
The sensing load of the Pulse board on the feedback coil is tiny but the impendence load of FB coil is part of the load on the primary along with the secondary and chokes.
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Thanks Earl , nice scope shot,
what do you think max voltage back though the pick up coil can be ?
i mean if you put in 12v will primary magnify it
we know we may get very high up to 600v from vic transformer as 1 set or more?
what would max back out of pick coil be>
dan
what ever it is we x by 10 vics
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Each vic would see the same voltage as I do not believe there is any connection between them so the voltage on the feedback coil in each vic should be the same. Unless you are using special wire none of the coils are going to handle the extremely high voltage. I know the the wire I am using that the insulation breaks down around 10kv. There was a lot of comments about wire insulation in forum as most wire is double coated but we may need quad coating to handle high voltage and it does not seen to be commonly available.
As the windings on the feedback coil and the primary coil are very close I would expect the voltage level to be very close to voltage on primary as it is almost an 1 to 1 ratio. Remember voltage level on feedback coil is determined by flux level as there is no electrical connection.
The output of the pulse board needs to be at 12v logic level, though the information in the signal is the current operating frequency.
What I did not show in the pictures above is that feedback coil does pick up the high frequency pulses on the top of the AM wave. I have problem in my system so I could not get that scope shot when I capture pictures above.
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Some good news. LM-318 chips I ordered arrived today (this is the equivalent replacement for the 918m). They were $2 each from Fair Radio Sales I needed to order 5 as they have a $10 minimum. I plugged it into socket of Pulse board and it worked as I hoped. I now for the first time have a full working Pulse Indicator board. I took another series of photo with new board in system.
Another piece of good new for me is I had noise in my K21 Phase Lock Circuit. I could see it on the gate input, it was there when gate input hooked up but was gone when I look at gate input disconnected from K21. This appeared to be causing problems with the circuit operation properly. While trouble shooting I happen to notice that pin 8 4001, chip ground, was not in the socket. I remove the chip, straighten the pin and reinstalled it. I double checked that each pin was properly seated. This solved my noise problem. You can even see in picture below that bump on front of digital signal is now gone.
I retook screen shots see below: I kept primary input to primary coil as reference for all four photos Yellow trace.
The first shows inputs to primary coil. Yellow is digital signal and blue analog signal.
Second shows digital signal to primary and blue plus output of feedback coil, plus input to Pulse Indicator circuit.
Third shows digital signal to primary and blue negative output of feedback coil, negative input to Pulse Indicator circuit.
Fourth shows digital signal to primary and blue output of Pulse Indicator circuit. This shows that the feedback coil is tracking the digital signal.
This is the first time I had the Pulse Indicator Circuit working and have this operation input to K21. In the photo you can see that both signals are at the same frequency, though they are jumping around some on the screen. As note the change in scale on the blue trace as the this input is at 12v logic level to K21.
Not show here is I quickly checked the switch on front of K21 which selects the different frequency ranges. With the problems I had with K21 this was not working before, it is now. Before only position 4 gave me a frequency now all four positions do.
Now that I have a working and tested Pulse Indicator board I will post the test results and analysis of the board just to be complete. The last photo below however is the main result and will be included in that report.
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More Testing
Now that I have a working K14 (Feedback coil and Pulser Indicator Card) I when back to do some additional test looking at input to primary and output of Secondary.
I followed the same test setup I used for the K14 testing:
I am using the K2 (M) output set to 41.67hz to drive all the gate and analog boards.
Gate is set to 50%
Analog signal level was set to be 2.32v anything less and the signal gets chopped. If set higher there is addition noise in system that I was trying to avoid for this test.
Analog voltage offset and gain were also set to minimum levels.
I did set frequency to be 2khz and played around with gain and offset setting to see what they would do to input signal to Primary Coil. I found that below 2v offset you can see the offset rise. Once you go beyond 2 volts there is a change in the analog signal. You begin to see what looks like what I initial though was noise. First Picture below shows analog and digital signal below 2v. The second show it slightly above 2v. I used curse lines to provide level reference. The additional signal is to the left of start gate pulse.
I did check the gate size and you can see in third and fourth pictures this additional sign is not affected by frequency. I have also found that you can expand this signal to the left quickly by increasing the offset and slow by using gain control. Gain control does not seem to have much effect if offset is below 2v.
I also wanted to see what the output of the secondary looks like I did this using same method I did for the feedback coil. I put scope ground on system ground and probe on either S or F sides of coil. You can see the results in next two photos.
I had notice in one of my earlier tests that when I was looking at secondary output that there was an additional pulse (actual sine wave) in the off pulse are. The last two phots show it below 2v offset no pulses and above 2v the small additional pulses in off period. I believe Ronnie stated that is part of the purpose of the offset so there always some pulses going to cells.
I had expected to see the rise in the analog peak signal level. I did not expect the addition pulses. Though if you slow things way down to can see the pulse and signal decay very clearly.
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Most interesting, happy to see you're sharing your results here Earl, it's highly appreciated :thumbsup:
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I got thinking about pictures above and decided to capture Secondary output at faster rate so I could see actual wave form in side each gate pulse. To do this I repositioned the two sides of the secondary on top of each other so the share a common center line. So the three pictures below are all at 2khz speed but with time scale changed. First is 100us, second 500us and third 20ms. Grain is either below 2v or slightly above for these pictures I am not sure. I just wanted to see more detail and what it looked like as I zoomed out. I believe in the 100us we are looking at a single digital pulse.
What you do not see in any of the screen shots is the whole wave bobbin up and down with the analog wave. Wish I was more of an expert on analog signals. I have always with digital stuff better even have a degree in computer science as a result as well as one in electrical engineering so I can understand things just did not practice it much more of a project engineer.
I thing my next step is to put a resister load on secondary just to see what changes.
One thing I have been looking for is where you increase the voltage in steps. None of the controls I have seen so far seem to do that. I know Ronnie at one point said changing frequency would give you high voltages. I have been looking for that but have not seen it so far.
In all these there is no gap in core. I did quickly try creating an air gap but it did not seem to do anything to secondary output. However, gap was not between secondary and primary is was out side as I have not yet created brass spacers. Will do that test again later as I want to see what changes. I should see some change in secondary power level but not sure I will see phase change without cokes in system.
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Earl very pretty scope shops it shows the detail of your notes well,
we can handle voltage increases in several ways manual or by trigger off k11
here are some examples
notes cells in pairs , vic transformers in pairs
it is possible to run voltage steps into the single pair/ vic pair 2 to 10 v etc
or /and sequential trigger 10 vic
Russ mentioned some where to use transistor , like the epg unit this diagram is not complete
it is just a guide to the right direction Stan's was smart we are lucky to have the examples replicated and global builders
Dan
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Thanks Dan, I will take a look at that. I just had assumed it was done in the circuits I was already look at have kept waiting for it to pop up but it never has. which means it is done somewhere else. I had decided the gain pot was going to it but it didn't which is why I asked question.
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If look at the last picture above, you should see a problem the digital pulse is on the falling part of the AM wave train not on the rising part. While I had noticed the digital pulses were on the falling edge of the AM wave, I had not thought to much about it at the time as I did not have all the circuits in place. When I did the initial tests above, I was focused on levels, but I notice that the digital pulse were on wrong side again. I woke this morning wonder why as I had used the same signal out of K2 to generated but the digital and AM wave trains. If you look at K11 The Digital Control Means circuit it shows the same signal going to the K3, Gate Pulse Frequency Generator, and K8, Analog Voltage Generator.
However, if you look at K8’s circuit diagram the signal indicator above the M input show it to be on the falling edge. After checking the M and M1 signals where the same I decided to do a quick test. I went back to K2 and inverted the M signal going to K8.
The results are shown in the two pictures below, which are taken at the input to the Primary coil. In both pictures the analog input is in blue and digital in yellow.
The first picture is with the M and M1 signals being identical and digital signal shows up on the falling part of the AM wave train.
The second picture is with the M signal inverted from M1. Now the Digital signal is on rising part the AM wave train where I expected to be.
The easiest why to fix this if you are using K11 is to use the M2 output for one of the signals as it is the inverse of M and M1.
In my case I will be using an inverter on my K2 board as that is the easiest place for me to do it and use that as my input to K8.
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After a lot of searching I found this signal in K8 means "step pulsing negative"
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Check Secondary output after fixing timing of input to K8. Picture below is another image of the merged output of secondary coil unloaded. Image is clearer after apply fix. You can see the amplitude of signal growing with each pulse now as digital signal moves up the AM signal.
Not sure what the best way to capture signals on secondary and or choke coils. Image above is using system ground on ground of probes and probe on secondary output.
I have tried using one scope channel with ground on one side and probe on other. Did get a similar signal but with higher voltage range. Reason I tried that is one of the diagrams I have seen show secondary with one side tied to ground but it is not clear if that is same system ground or a floating ground.
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Thanks Dan, I will take a look at that. I just had assumed it was done in the circuits I was already look at have kept waiting for it to pop up but it never has. which means it is done somewhere else. I had decided the gain pot was going to it but it didn't which is why I asked question.
russ did show if you do in gradual 2 v increments it the voltage will double with 1 tube 1 vic
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Ran a few more tests on output of secondary coil to better understand how to hook up scope for testing secondary side of VIC.
First, I tried using a 200-ohm resister as the load. The digital pulse disappeared, and I could not get scope to sync.
Second tried a 200k-ohm resistor This removed the ringing on each pulse I will point it out below. I am not sure what is correct load to use but I wanted to how signal out changed with load. I am aware that impedance load will be different.
I also did some test on what happens when I change the position of the scopes ground. The pictures above were all collected with the scope ground hooked to the system ground of the board. There was some float in the signal that does not show up on screen shots. After doing test below I double check one the screen shots above and float was there.
I did the following test using the analog signal as a reference. I got the same results using digital signal as reference.
Test one:
CH1 – Yellow is analog input to primary, scope ground hooked to system ground
CH2 – Blue on load on secondary, GND of scope on S lead of secondary, and Probe on F lead
See first picture both signals are very stable
Test two:
Same connects but with 220k load
See second picture you can see that decay on signal in each pulse is gone but both signals are still stable
Test three:
Same setup but with scope ground for CH2 not hooked to anything
Note: I get the same results with scope ground hooked up to system ground.
See third picture analog signal into primary is stable, but CH2 signal floats like on an AC signal.
Test four:
Same as test three setup but no load.
Comments:
A resistive load reduces the ring in the delay pulse
Having the scope probe on system ground places a load on secondary output and reduce voltage level but does not seem to provide a stable reference for the output of the secondary at least as far as the scope is concerned. (Classic example of test equipment effecting equipment under test).
These screen shots all had the Scope GND probe on the S side of the Secondary when connected to Secondary output. If you switch it to the F side of secondary the Blue signal switches to the falling side of the AM signal.
Results is somewhat expected as the primary and secondary act like and isolation transformer where output is disconnected from the system earth ground on the primary side. When this happens the ground source which the scope uses for timing is lost.
One of the VIC diagrams show a ground reference on the secondary side. I believe this ground is not connected to the system ground on the primary side. There is discussion of the “flowing” ground in some of the VIC threads which why I was doing these tests. I wanted to understand impact of hooking up the scope.
The ground point is shown to be between the Secondary and the variable choke (side without the diode). My question is can I continue to use my scope using this ground point or do I need a differential probe for my scope?
Aside note, I tried the 220-ohm resistor for a reason. I want to see what it did to signal. Nav in AM signal tread discusses using a 220-ohm resister as a load on system to maintain the flux level in core. The high impedance is the load on the digital part of the see. See his tread for detail. He also states if system is tuned correct this load is not needed.
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each component has capacitance so i find your tests interesting
awesome work to get this far
Ronnie said yu start in steps this would explain
THE CIRCUIT BUILDING THE SERIES CAPACITENCE AND WHY WE ADD ALL RESISTENCE TOGTHER.
it would be interesting to see scopes shot
of the incremental rise
2 volt
than 4 volt
then 6 volt
than 8 volt
than 10 volt
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Tests to Capture Results of Changing Control Settings
I decided to capture what happens when I change control setting when I have my scope across the output of the secondary coil as this seems to be the most stable configuration.
So basic setup is as follows
K2 – output M1 is 41.67hz going to K3
K3 – is set for a 5% gate at 41.67hz
K2 – output M (is the inverse of M1) is going to K8
K8 – Idle offset was set to 2.32 voltage (minimum level with not clipping)
K21 – offset to be above 2v (like idle setting this seems be minimum setting)
I have CH2 probe on the output of the secondary and for this set of tests there is no other load on secondary. Scope GND is on F side of secondary and probe on S side of Secondary.
What I am testing this series of test if the affect of changing the idle setting on K8. I will be looking at the both the analog input into the Primary coil and the signal from the scope across the secondary coil.
As I have only 2 channels on my scope, I will redo the level changes so I can see result on both the primary analog input and the secondary output.
Capture the affect of changing K8 Idle Offset
As start of test Idle Offset will be approximate 2.32v (minimum setting in my system to get clean analog signal).
CH1 – Yellow is the output of K8, analog sign with offset (approx. 2v)
CH2- Blue is the scope probe across the Secondary Coil output (no load)
The first picture is with K8 set to the minimum idle setting approximate 2.32v
Note: Vpp(2) value is 13.2V
Raise the Vmax(1) level to approx. 3V
Notice: The output of the secondary voltage goes down Vpp(2) is not approx. 10 volts. I had seen this earlier when I was looking at the Primary inputs.
Repeat this test but with CH1 scope on the Analog Input to the Primary Coil
First the Minimum Offset level
CH2-Blue on output of Secondary
CH1-Yellow is not on Analog input to Primary Coil
K8 setting are approx. the same as start of previous test
Notice both Vmax(1) and Vpp(2) will change
Capture the outputs with K8 Vmax about 3v
Notice that both Vmax (1) and Vpp(2) have dropped. I expect them to be in sync and they are I can see them changing together when I change the idle offset value on K8. Now I do not have a theory of why it works this way. I had expected to see the values go up. But this is the reason I am doing these test I want to know what will happen when I change a setting.
I plan on repeating these test but with changing the offset and gain on K9. One thing I have learned is you need to be careful and make sure you have the minimum values see correctly or system does not function the way you expect. Get they too low and you signal disappears. Happen to me several times when I turn wrong knob.
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I was looking ad differential probes last night and found I was close in seeing what the actual signal looks like out of secondary. Turns out you can see what a differential probe will show you if you use 2 probes across the item you are measuring with both probes grounds on system ground. Then if you use Math function A-B it will show you what a differential problem would.
So here are two screen shots showing unloaded secondary output and last one with 220K load
The first shows CH1, CH2 and the Math Function A-B where A is CH1 and B is CH2.
The second shows just the Math function with scale changed. Turns out you can turn off the display of the scope channels and Math function still works. This is really what I was trying see as it gives you the real voltage of the output. Bright spot on scope is light behind me forgot to block it.
Just to be complete I in last photo I added 220K load to secondary note voltage drop.
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The following series of test show the result of increasing the offset on K9.
Test setup used the standard setup with the excepting I have set the Offset on K9 to be below minimum value so we can see what this looks like and what it looks like as we raise offset.
I did also check function of the Gain Pot on K9. I have not shown that here as it appears to be a fine control on the setting of the Offset Pot. So, for whatever value you set with the Offset it takes several turns of Gain trim pot to make a small change in output of secondary.
The scope pictures are from both probes on the secondary and using the math function A-B to create the same results you would get using a differential probe. This is a truer picture of the voltage across the secondary. I also have 220k resister across the secondary to provide some load.
Note: I have turn off the display of CH1 A and CH2 B so we are only look at the results of the Math function.
Because I have only a 2-channel scope, I was not able to track the voltage level out into Primary during this test.
As Scope shots are all of the same connection I will not repeat set up as only change was to Offset on K9.
Picture 1 – Shows the signal when offset is set below 2v. Purpose is to show what the signal looks like when offset is set too low
Picture 2 – Shows when offset is above 2v but not yet over minimum value. Note the sight curve in the base signal line.
Picture 3 – Shows when offset is over minimum value. The line is more curved and has a smooth arch.
Picture 4 – After raising offset more the curve in front of the digital pulses starts to flat as has some noise. Flatten of the curve move left to right and continues to happen as you raise offset.
Picture 5 – As you continue to raise offset the voltage on the digital pulses also rises. I also started to hear noise from the coils.
Picture 6 – You can easily see what I mean by curve flatting and easily see the rise in voltage in the digital pulses.
Picture 7 – The curve line is now almost completely flat, and you can see the digital pulses are starting to get clipped.
Picture 8 – No change in curved line but notice the digital pulse is now flat top and bottom and voltage no longer changes with rises in offset pot.
As a final check, I removed the inversion of the M signal into K8 so see what it would do output signal. I could not see a difference it the output of secondary but that may be hid buy the Math function.
While I had done this test before I had done with using a differential probe setup which gives a truer voltage ready across a component so I had seen the affect of the offset pot when I did that test.
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Rest of pictures
Test will slow down I managed to fry my mother board with a freak accident - Drop iPhone cord plugged in computer usb port and phone end when into power strip plug. I could not have done this if I tried. So computer in for repair - looks like it was just the mother board. Doing this on my wife's computer.
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After collecting the secondary output photos with two probes across output and using Scope Math function I decide to go back and do same offset and gain test but using the Input to the primary. I have tried to do this test before but just with out proper load and did not get good results. This time with both a Primary and Secondary Coil with 220k resister I got much better results of the AM wave. This is to be expected as an AM amplifier reacts different loaded and unloaded. The biggest difference is the Offset and Gain Pots now work properly.
These photos are important because this is what you word be seeing on the test jack on K9 which is the output to the VIC coils. The photos are not at the exact same place as the Secondary phots but should be close especially those around the minimum offset value.
Turns out you can see what the gain function does in these photos better than in the Secondary output photos and I have a couple photos to show this. I took the Gain Photos first and labeled the G instead of P which why numbering starts with P4 but take about gain at end
.
Setup did not change from last set of photos above except the location of the scope probes which are now on the input to the primary coil. Both scope grounds are connected the system ground.
CH1 – yellow is the digital input frequency around 1.2khz for screen shots and my timing reference
CH2 – Blue is the analog input
P4 - I set both the offset pot and the gain pot setting to be near or below their minimum value. The offset is well below as I wanted to see it change.
P5 – You can see the shape of the analog pulse start to change
P6 – I added cursors to show the amplitude of the pulse start to grow
P7- I raised the offset until amplitude stopped growing. Note: At start of the cycle bottom slightly below the cursor. Once it reaches the with cursor it changes. At the point both AM and digital pulses start to move, AM whole wave trains starts to offset. The digital pulse grows in amplitude.
P8 – Note Scope scale change. This is at the point just before the top of the signal starts to get clipped.
P9 – AM Signal clipped at the top
P10 – As signal was going through be set to the minimum offset value I noticed that it slowly fills the spaces between the digital pulses. This happens left to right and screen shot shows this with the space about half filled.
P11 – As the Math function was so important in understanding the output the secondary, I did take a look at. This photo shows a typical value as it does not change much with either gain or offset changes so it not very useful here. The other thing that this photo show is a different frequency. I have the manual mode frequency set to 500hz and flipping that switch changes the pulse width but did not change much else on the screen.
G1 – With the offset it the middle range I played with the gain pot. I added the cursers to top and bottom of the AM wave so I would have a baseline.
G2 – This is max gain, note the amplitude gain in the digital pulse as wee
G3 – This is just with gain just slightly above the minimum setting in the base line in G1. With gain change is starts to change the amplitude of the signal first then as that increases so the offset.
I was really pleased with the results of these test as I can now see how offset and gain can be used to control the voltage going to primary. This is what I had expected to happen but did not see as my earlier test did not provide enough load for the voltage to increase.
I still not sure what should be the minimum offset. I would thing the value where the bottom of the AM signal in no longer clipped.
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More Photos
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And the gain photos
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I did collect a series of screen shot where I captured both the primary input and secondary output at the same time so I have a record that I can check back against. Operation system will have different value as loading will be different. They show as you increase the offset the voltage the signal across the secondary rises. You can see that in photos above. While doing that I was zoomed in so I was looking at data in one pulse. It is interesting to watch the signals change as you raise the offset. You can see what I will call state changes where results change. For example the analog signal stays pretty much at one level and signal expands horizontally then the offset starts to rise.
What I did find very difficult was to determine what voltage level the analog signal was at using this method as it jumps around allot. I basically watch signal and estimated what the analog Vpp was. Doing this was if I was going to try to repeat a value I most likely use Vmax of the digital pulses, while that moves around it is much more stable.
I sat and though about how Stan was doing this as method above is not repeatable. He brought 2 signals out to the same test point so he could not be looking at both then the same time as you either can see the analog input to primary or the digital pulses. The digital pulses gives the frequency and also some indication of a voltage; however, it does not tell you the analog voltage. If you look at the analog voltage with no scope changes you will be able to see the analog signal and even the digital pulses in them but voltage level is jumping all over the place.
So I just did another test to see if I could get a more accurate estimate of the analog voltage Vpp value. I turned off the digital input and only looked at the analog signal. I then zoomed way out and looked at signal Vpp and increase the scale factor to 10. This reduced the noise on the signal and while it take several seconds for the screen to update the Vpp value that I get is much easier to see as it stay stable for several second. I then adjusted value and waited several screen updates until I was happy with value I was getting. With this method I believe I can get repeatable results.
Picture below so the results of me trying to set Vpp to 10v.
Note: It is very possible that I have noise in my test system that should not be in a production system or even on prototype boards. You will not get these if you just build the circuits, and that is what I did, you most likely will have left out filter capacitors that get added as standard practice. i.e. power filters to supplies for the IC.
Having said that, my test boards work well enough that I can configure my system and they have giving me a working understanding of what each of the front panel controls do. I am still not done as things change as you add more pieces. I really saw that when I added a load to the secondary. While load is still not correct with no load the offset and gain on K9 did not appear to do anything.
My next step was to play with the gap in the cores to see what it did to signals. I did find a reference that for a standard transformer is only has an effect if the transformer is saturated. Not our case, gaps with inductors are another issue and this was the last statement article.
" Hope you will be clear by this time that as our magnetizing currents are very low it is safe to go without any air gap. But you may be seeing few applications using air gap in transformers. Here the main purpose is to play with the magnetizing inductance so that can control the leakage inductance for critical applications like DAB/Resonant converters."
So it is beginning to look like I need to build the chokes before those these will work.
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Nice Work Earl, this Help clarify the Steps alot,
The scope shots come our great and clear showing primary signals and gain well done
thanks for posting them in order this also helps alot for
other to try same,
I know of 3 people following step by step but it takes time to config
Thanks
I will look again at the signal into the db 9 into transformer daughter board
Dan
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Dan,
I talked about the tests I did above but did not post all the photos. I decided to put them into a table to reduce space and summary what the test did. Results are in the attached file. Table shows primary input next to secondary output from below or at minimum offset to clipping at top of range. I tried to collect data at 1v steps. Results is close to listed voltage input level but is not accurate.
Note: Text at beginning of document provides system configuration for the tests which did not change across all the tests. Only change was Offset and scope settings and probe locations for each photo.
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AWSOME
Great you Thanks Earl
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I did another set of tests only this time I left the analog signal fixed and only changed the digital frequency. I tested from 1khz to 5khz in 500hz steps. Setup was the same at the above test. I attached the results in the attached pdf. It includes screens shots at each frequency plus a few showing what happens when you change the switch settings 1x,2x,3x,4x on VIC board. Test detail is included in the document.
First picture in each set show the digital frequency going into the primary coil. This is zoomed in so I can get a close estimate of actual frequency. Second picture show output of Secondary. Item of main interest is the Math function which is the actual voltage output of the secondary. CH1 and CH2 are the S and F outputs of the Secondary to the 220k resistor load, both scope leads are connected to system ground. The math function is what you would see if you used a differential probe.
Quick test summary, It appears that changing only the frequency just changes the number of pulses in each gate pulse. This will increase the energy density in each pulse but not the voltage level. You can see this by looking at the Math function output in the screen shots.
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great
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I did my primary and secondary signal testing with the coils just setting on a couple of boards. This will not work when I start to test the cokes as for them I will need to be able to adjust the gaps in the cores (gap not necessary to test transformer function) I have been thinking about how to do that and build holding jig in the photos below. I decided to do this now as it was easier to do before I wind the chokes which I am getting ready to do.
The white boards with black screws are mainly to hold the tubes with cores tight together and square and keep the ferrite in the end tube tight against the ferrite in side tubes. The aluminum angle bars on the side with 2 screws in them will allow me to put pressure on ferrite pieces under the coils. By putting brass plates in the gap I can increase or decrease the gap side. As the side pieces are independent I can set different size gaps on each side. I am 1/2 inch wood pieces that fit in the tube to press on ferrite. This way the metal screws are not touching the ferrite cores. It also means I am less like to damage the ferrite. To change the gap size I will just push the ferrite pieces out one end of tube with a wooden rod I created for this purpose when I made the tubes. I have multiple sizes of brass stock to set the gap so I will just select size I want to test and put them between the ferrite pieces and push them back into tube. Screws will be used to reply light pressure to remove any air gap.
I have no idea what I should be using for a gap size only that Ronnie stated making them different will help create the proper voltage difference that need to be be applied to the cells by adjusting the phase angle.
Note: Pictures also show the connections of the probes while measuring the signal on the secondary output. This is using 2 standard probes to act as 1 differential probe.
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nice
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With the completion of the jig I turned to making the 2 cokes C1 and C2.
I decided to do C2 first as it was the smaller of the 2 chokes at 70.1 ohms. I calculated the length to be 856.654 feet based on the estimated ohms value per foot. I added an extra 4 feet guessing that would be more than enough. It was not when I used meter to measure ohms. Cutting it short was a big mistake on my part as instead of wasting 20 feet of wire the whole coil will need to be redone. I know better should always cut them long. In fact, for this coil I should have make long enough to be 73 ohms then I could add coils back if I need to balance turns. Ronnie stated these 2 chokes should start out matching the approximate 73 ohms of the secondary. Then you add turns to C1 and remove turns from C2. If you need to take turns off C1 then you added them back to C2. C2 will never be more than 73 ohms. C1 will be near 76.7 ohms so wire will need to be even longer to start. The big question is how much longer. Nav says the same thing in his posts about and removing turns on chokes. He even recommends having enough wire to reach cells.
While I knew this ahead of time I was not sure what I was going to do with the extra wire and got in a hurry and cut it too short as I had to cut wire to measure the ohms. Should have just added way more than enough and then cut it back after measuring. For actual length of C2 I am only off about 13 feet. Turns out that is only about 3 turns as each turn on outer edge of my coils is about 5 inches. I have decided to leave it for now as I will need to order more wire before I can rewind it as there is not enough left on source spool to redo it.
I have already wound C1 wire on jig to measure length added extra wire and then some, so I do not repeat the mistake of cutting too short. Now I just wound it on spool and count turns.
I plan on doing a few tests with this C2 coil just to see what things look like. What I am trying to find out at this point is how to set the voltage difference across the cells that match value need to start pulling water apart. Note: Not the high voltage but from Ronnie. “It takes a potential difference of 1.23 volts to maintain the polarization process. EXAMPLE: Hydrogen electrode -0.41 volts Oxygen electrode +0.82 volts.” It is my understanding this a combination of the difference in the wraps on each of the chokes and difference in size of gaps.
I also understand the gap may be needed to keep cores from saturation when we are at resonance so I am not sure if I can test gap size with out have the real cells. My plan is to do some initial test using a resistant load with a cross over capacitor. I have no idea if this will work or not. Given that we need to maintain the 1.23 difference at all times I hoping I can see the affect of changes at low voltages without worrying about resonance at this point.
Was the estimated gap size every posted as I do not recall ever see it?
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C1 now wound on spool. Just to be safe I wound 990 feet which was 78.5 ohms 3409 turns. I then cut off 10ft (.8 ohms) now have 77.7 ohms.
At this point I measured inductance of both C1 and C2 with air core. Note: Meter frequency changes with inductance so I have included frequency in data below.
C2 is 69 ohms, 3081 turns and 98.48mH at 1579hz
C1 is 77.75 ohms, 3386 turns and 124mH as 1406hz
I then took 10 feet of coil but did not cut it so still 77.75ohms, 3364 turns and 121.8mH.
I plan on leaving extra wire for now. I wound the extra 10 feet on 1.5 in diameter cardboard tube and remeasured inductance of C1; 121.9 -122.1mH so what you do with extra wire matters. I plan on redoing these measurements with ferrite cores in place.
Repeated measurements with ferrite cores in holder – open on both ends
C2 with ferrite core 756.2-756.8mH at 569hz
C1 with ferrite core and 10 feet on air core 922.2- 922.7mH at 517hz
C1 with ferrite core and 10ft of straight wire 915.6mH at 518hz. Note: when I recoiled wire on cardboard tube, I got slightly different values. But I had moved to different spot on table.
I also think I will do some gap test before hooking up coils just to see if it changes anything. I expect it will as moving core sight in tube changes values.
Put tube with ferrite core and coils in VIC jig then finger tighten screws to make sure ferrite pieces where snug no gaps.
C2 complete loop no gaps 1.520H at 402hz
C1 complete loop no but with 10 feet on cardboard tube air core 1.657-1666H at 384-385hz
Picture show current coils I am testing installed in the jig I am using the L/C meter in the picture to measurements. This is the one others where using and found to be fairly accurate even though it is cheap.
The increased inductance was expected. Mainly doing this so I have a baseline for future changes. I plan on take several measures for different gap sizes without changing anything else to get a feel for what happens to the C1 C2 inductance values.
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hi Earl reading through , gap size can be very close to your number it is a adjustable tune
i have not seed 1 to 5 scale of gap sizes posted yet ,
Dan
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I put VIC coils all together in my VIC jig and repeated the inductance meter meter measurements with no gap, 0.004th on coke leg and with 0.004th on both legs. The chokes and secondary were not connect to anything but meter. Goal was to see what gap did to the coils. Simple answer is gap reduces the coils inductance. I have attached the measurements I took for my coils. The hz reading is from the meter and it tells you what the frequency was used to calculate henrys. I plan on doing some smaller gap changes I just decide to start with .004 spacer I also have .006, .002, .001 and believe smallest is .0005. As you can see in the table a change in the gap affects all three coils. For some of the coils the meter cycled between two values so I include both. The only change to setup was to add the brass spacer. I did not change and of the coil windings or make a changes to wire resistance though I know what those values are for all three coils.
For reference I also include Z for each coil at 1khz. Once you know the H value for coil Z=2*pi*f*L.
Not sure if this is the best way to go about this but it was easy to collect this data at this point as I have not yet hooked the coils up.
Having 2 spacers put the primary and C2 one one core piece and secondary and C1 on the other.
One of the things we were told to do early on was to impedance balance the system but to do that you needed to know the coils inductance and the cells capacitance and we had neither of the values. This is my attempt to at least know one of them and to get a feel for what one change (the gap) does to the systems does. I am aware the gap also changes the phase of the system signal and I plan on looking at that later.
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I put .001th shim on Choke side of core and redid measurements in this case inductance went up but that may be caused by the whole system being connected tighter and not do to the additional shim. I also added a column showing the difference in Henrys and Z for each change for reference. One thing that is very apparent is this as not a linear function especially going from no gap to .004 gap as adding an additional .004 on other leg had a much smaller effect. Much easier to see when you look at the change in Z. One exception to this was there was a big change in the difference for the second with the addition of the .004 in that leg
Another thing that you can see is amount of change on C1 and C2 is different for each change I expect this is why gap change be used to adjust the phase.
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I hooked up the Diode and C1 and C2 to 3 resistors that add up to 76.65 ohms (no cells or capacitors at this point). This is close to the Re 78.54 of the cells. I then captured a couple of screen shots to see what the signal looks like at the cell interface in this case across the resistors. Picture P1 shows the signal. Turns out the big difference in the C1 and C2 signals and the large math function are because I had hooked up the connections to C1 backwards. Picture P2 show the signals when cell is turned off as I wanted to see the base carrier you get there is no system ground in signal. Notice scope scales. I had correct diagram show correct way but after hooking but C2 I just did the same for C1 which is wrong.
Pictures P3 and P4 are signals when C1 is hooked up correctly. I reversed the probes between taking these pictures and got the same results. Note: Scales are now equal for all three signals.
I did not capture the cell off picture with C1 hooked correctly but the signal where at the same level in that case.
Note: All these tests where done with low offset and frequency at 1K.
Final picture is my test setup.
I also measured the voltage across resistor and on each side of the resistor with one side of meter connected to system ground. I am trying to figure out how to measure the voltage differential going to the cell which should be 1.23 volts.
DC voltage across resistor is .027
AC voltage across resistor is .024
DC voltage on C1 to ground is 0.0
AC voltage on C1 side to ground is 1.189 to 1.198
DC voltage on C2 to ground is 0.0
AC voltage on C2 side to ground is 1.193 to 1.204
Note: C2 is 69 ohms and C1 is 77.7 ohms with 10’ on external air core.
I was hoping I could see the voltage difference with just the resistor as this would be the starting point when conditioning cell when capacitor is full of water and is basically shorted. Given the slight difference between the C1 and C2 sides it does not look like this is working without the capacitor in circuit. I am also not sure the best way to make the measurement. I am under the impression that the voltage difference should be constant across frequency based on Ronnie’s comments.
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Added capacitor in series with resistors: Cap labeled 8.20uF +/-5% 630VDC measured 7.76uF with my meter. Note: this is a nondirectional capacitor.
Probes in photos – Probe grounds are connected to system ground
C1 – Yellow is on C1 minus side of Cap
C2 – Bule is on C2 plus side of Cap
Math is A-B where A is C1 and B is C2
What I was trying to do in this series of tests was to see the effect of the capacitor on signal and the best way to measure signal and voltage difference between the two side of the capacitor. I did see a big change in voltage after adding capacitor and could see it charge up. I also found that putting a voltmeter across the cap caused a voltage drop of slightly over a quarter of a volt.
Picture PC1 shows a couple of things. C2 blue show the state of the signal when the cell is turned off by switch. Note the offset is zero I was attempting to measure this using the cursors. One other thing to note is that CH1 probe was set incorrectly. Probe was 1x instead of 10x, I have had this happen to me before so while I checked it, I did not look close enough. It was fixed in last 2 pictures
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Picture PC2 shows same setting with cell turned back on and you can see voltage offset to C2 interesting C1 does not move.
Picture PC3 shows the same signal zoomed in closer.
Pictures PC4 and PC5 have the probe setting fixed on C1 and signal now looks more like the results on the resistors only. In both these pictures voltmeter is not connected.
In PC4 I have turned on the AVG function for voltage on both Channels so I could estimate the voltage difference be the two sides of the cap.
In PC5 I did the same thing but used RMS function.
While the both had slightly different results the difference when you subtract them was only .01v so this these functions may be the way I measure the voltage difference across cells so I can set the required 1.23v difference. I am still not sure this will work will watch this in future tests.
Also note in both PC4 and PC5 you can see a DC voltage offset of about 4 volts to both CH2 and the Math function. Note: I do have both probes couple selection set to DC. I do not thing this is the difference we are trying to set as this value changes with the level of the charge on the cell. I saw this a I watch the cell discharge both on voltmeter and on scope C2 to level shown in picture PC1.
I also took a couple of measurements with voltmeter. Voltage across cell was 3.75 as noted above I could see voltage drop to this level when I hooked up meter. Voltage on plus side of cell with negative side of meter hooked to system ground was 3.16vdc and on negative side of capacitor it was -.33vdc.
One final note other than turning cell off and on with switch I did not make any other changes to my test system configuration. As with above resistor tests the frequency was still set to 1khz and minimum offset to analog signal.
Now that I have a baseline, next step is to slowly start to change things one at time to see what happens.
One thing I did not see was the frequency doubling. Will look for this more when I start change system configuration. One of the first things I will check is to reverse diode as I can do that easily as I have not soldered my connections yet. It is also possible I have the wrong diode and/or capacitor type.
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Simple answer is gap reduces the coils inductance.
noted again here
Thanks Earl Reading things and checking what can be noted
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After doing the test above I wonder in my capacitor was in the close F range. Turns out it was way off. Like a lot of things, I could not find what I was looking for which was the capacitor values of the cells. Today I found the three tables in the reference below the third table provided 22pF for a single cell in air it also gives a 2.52uF value for ten cell which is not correct. Using the calculator see below I got 2.2pF (number was close but wrong range as it had to be less not greater and single cell)
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build thread
https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/capacitors-in-series#adding-capacitors-in-series
Note: There are many different calculators here I recommend them as they created by a physics PhD candidate.
It look like there are other errors as well for example in you look at L1 and L2 together they are in around 600mH on ferrite core but the single values for both are around 1100mH. Inductors are additive so this does not make any sense. As this puzzled my I measure the inductance of my whole VIC at the cell interface and got 6.878H so it possible this is another case where value is close, but range is wrong.
My shole VIC is 6.697H at 198Hz Note: needed short out diode to take reading
Sec and C1 = 3.446H at 267hz - All coils on core
Sec and C2= 2.921H at 290Hz - All coils on core
Capacitance across the VIC cell interface from meter was 17.84pf and 680,230hz
I plugged 600H and 5khz into the Resonant Frequency calculator one of above calculator referenced above and got 1.6887pF.
I can see why Ronnie stated you need to start with cells. It’s too bad the table had some incorrect values and I know people were having a hard time measuring capacitance of there cell though they did state the cheap meter I am using seemed to work.
The short series of posts starting with reference below by Ronnie also explain why you get different voltages across the chokes and shows proper hookup of chokes and math example
He starts with a picture showing the math for apposing and aiding inductors then gives reference to source of equations
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #120, on October 27th, 2016, 03:00 PM »Last edited on October 29th, 2016, 02:21 PM
While I know my L1 is too high and L2 too low I will try a capacitor in the 2pF range and do some more testing. Hopefully this will at least put in the ballpark of the correct values, so I better see the effect of changing the values of the chokes.
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For Sure , You have to start with cells
Russ and others have shown you need to have some skills of the art in tuning
1 start with air get measurements on track
2 add double distilled water
3 raise voltage in steps
4 remember dbd barrier or bubble layer of air is the ticket to free town
Russ was testing several types of Tip120
on the Vic daughter board,
Earl
there is some finer discussion on exact
brand make model of best tip120
on the vic transformer driver board or daughter board.
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Thanks Dan
I was looking for Russ's test result a little while ago and was not able to find them. I know a lot of his later testing was not posted in the forum the I have made heavy use of resource data he did post. I have read his questions to Ronnie and Ronnie answers so I know Russ got fairly far in his testing. While I have been following Russ for a long time when he was doing Stan's testing I was busy looking at other alternate energy projects.
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I am getting around to looking deeper at the cells and their capacitance. Up to this point I have been concentrating on the generating the signal going into the coils. I have started trying to look at the effect of changes on the output of the coils and have reached the point where I need to have a better load on the coils. I admit I have been avoiding this issue up to now as this is an area, I am least familiar with. While I have looked at the tables showing resistance, inductance, and capacitance up to now I have not paid a lot of attention to them. As I am trying to determine how to setup the voltage difference that Ronnie talks about, I want to have a capacitor or capacitor bank that in the right range to represent 10 cells.
I can measure the inductance of my circuit, so I know what that inductance value is, but I want the proper load, so I see the effect of my changes. When I look at the table showing the capacitance values, I see different numbers for the various dielectric and one for the 10 cells. I initial thought the value for 10 cells was wrong as I had assumed it was for air which is 2.2pF but 2.52uF it is correct for tap water.
This means there is big difference when the cell is empty and when it full. But I think the answer is somewhere in between as water level will drop when cells start producing gas. I have been wondering if this is one of the tuning functions for several reasons. Puharich’s Patent talks about raising the water level in cell to until the top part of the center tube is cover (center tube lower that outer). Then in several of Stan’s videos you see pressure being applied to cells. Pressure can be used to control water level. I have also notice that in some of pictures and videos that not all the cells are at the same height which makes we wonder if that was done to change the total capacitance.
Ronnie also talks that initial tuning should be done in air and implies that is where cell would be operated. While I thought I knew the capacitance would change with dielectric level I wanted to be sure so I search on internet and found the follow article which confirmed that assumption and in fact they use that function in their fluid level sensors:
How does capacitive level sensing work? » Gill Sensors ...
https://www.gillsc.com/newsitem/51/how-does-capacitive-level-sensing-work-
In trying to under what value of capacitance I needed I plugged inductance and capacitance values in the resonance calculator at above reference to see what happen to frequency. For this exercise I used the capacitance value for air and set the inductance to provide a resonance frequency around 4-5khz. Which turned out to be close to what I was measuring for my VIC coils. Interesting when I then plugged in the value for water resonance frequency was around 38hz.
I started with 6.878H as that is what I measured at interface to cell. Then I plugged in frequency between 4-5khz to see what value that would give me for capacitor. As I could find a 220pH 1000v capacitor I plugged that into calculator and got 4.0915kz. This should let me change things in my testing to see effect of changes.
Summary 220pF and 6.878H gives Resonance at 4.0915kHz. Note: For same capacitance lowering Henry’s will increase frequency. I can do that by increasing gap in core.
Summary water 2.52uF and 6.878H gives Resonance at 38.23Hz
This leads me to believe that water level in cell is critical and cell pressure is not just a safety factor as it will also control water level. The cell then is a variable capacitor and can be adjusted by changing water level see Gill article reference above. Gill does the reverse they use capacitance of cell to determine level of fluid. There sensor is calibrated to match the dielectric value of the fluid in tank.
This takes me back to one of Ronnie’s comments where he stated he did tests to determine capacitance of cell at various levels and frequencies.
My next step: I am waiting for 1000v 220pF to arrive so I can see what that they do to my test setup. I tried 220pF cap that I have but only got 150mV of charge on cap.
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Thanks Earl
It is interesting notes,
there are some issue with the sensor range on hv Dc of our cells
, not sure if they can handle hv environment
if they can great
we can also measure and calibrate with water proof ultra sonic.
if a physical live capacitance measurement is required we could say
it might have to be the unpaired 11 th cell ( or the odd unpaired cell in any array )
Dan
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Dan,
I wanted to double check what I said about variable capacitors and voltage is correct, so I looked up a couple of articles. This is one of the references
Introducing a dielectric into a capacitor decreases the electric field, which decreases the voltage, which increases the capacitance. A capacitor with a dielectric stores the same charge as one without a dielectric, but at a lower voltage. Voltage and capacitance are inversely proportional when charge is constant.
Dielectrics – The Physics Hypertextbook
This means a cell full of water when charged will always have a lower voltage than one filled with air. As we are not concerned about charge of the cell to get a higher voltage remove some or all the water. Air dielectric value is 1 and water is 80.
I then search on what happen when capacitor is half filled got several answers but this one is good quick summary.
Capaciter partially filled with dielectric — Collection of Solved ...
physicstasks.eu › capaciter-partially-filled-with-dielectric
Oct 31, 2018 — Capacitor that is filled with dielectric this way can be replaced with two parallel capacitors. One will be filled with air and one will be completely filled with dielectric.
This is for a capacitor where dielectric is “perpendicular” to plates which is what we have with vertical tubes. Other articles include all the equations for the calculation.
Removing water will lower the capacitance of cell and change its impedance. Result will be a lower charge but with a higher voltage. In our case we do not care about the charge as we want a high voltage.
Ronnie talks about operating in air (dielectric being Hydrogen and Oxygen) but still needing leakage current to keep flux up and to polarize the water which I believe requires there be some water in the cells
.
One of the reasons I brought this up is I have heard the reason many people stopped trying to make system work is they could not get enough voltage on the cells.
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some points
yes tune with air learn
2 water , we can consider that water is the medium to dissolve the gas
3 if we have too much gas we can rapidly expand with any static spark
4 we can add dbd layer
6 the 90degree angle of charge is important to understand or voltage goes through cell no magnetic effect
7 Voltage and static frequency doing work is left out of the physics hand book
8 Stan Mentions in some lectures that the charge is what cause production during gate thus no other form of method can equal or match his as the electrons are release during off time as a result of on going charge and production during gate
so we must consider yes we do what both charge and voltage , it is up to us to learn rediscover and teach the skills of the art to make hold and grow both same time
9 a bubble layer on cell wall or dbd can be used.
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Dan I agree. I went to the physic sites as they had the answer to my question of what happens when dielectric level changes in cell. Interesting one of the sites used water to illustrate how a capacitor works and describe water as being polar molecule with plus and minus charge and even high lighted hydrogen being 104 degrees apart and that water molecule is elongated when voltage is applied.
I have been continuing to think about Ronnie's comment about tuning in air. He never says that system will operate completely in air. If you tune in air your system will operate with a cell at that capacitance. I expect this may set a limit that will keep they system from running away and destroying our coils. Then your system can run with some of the water being removed without system running away. I also believe you must have some water in cell so water can continue to be conditioned and elongated before it is split.
Beside trying to understand what is happening in cell Ronnie’s posts below is one of the reasons I want was trying to answer that question about water level.
“Allan(Rav) and I fumbled with the dielectric constant of the water being 78.54 ohms the same way most people are doing also when we were doing our own research on it. I showed references in the post above and like I said they are many more in other documents of his. You can only can come to a conclusion he is not telling the truth, or people don't yet understand how he comes up with it being 78.54 ohms.
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #62, on December 5th, 2015, 09:32 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 10:01 AM
Good number for hydrogen and oxygen as the dielectric, I would think.
Re: Stans VIC finally reverse engineered and ready to build.
« Reply #65, on December 5th, 2015, 10:02 AM »Last edited on December 5th, 2015, 10:17 AM
Quote from resonance1 on December 5th, 2015, 09:51 AM
I don't think Stan is telling lies at this point but likely misusing the term ohms as a dielectric constant,
it seems obvious that when the cell is producing lots of gas the dielectric value will be much lower than when the cell is only full of water, Stan tells us it changes with gas production in his talk but not in which direction it changes,
I could be wrong but that's how it looks to me.
Good post. Guy's I am going to throw this out there to you all for what's it worth. Water is not going to be the dielectric in the cell forever. And It looks like a couple of you are catching on now. My deed is done.”
Note: I looked up dielectric value for hydrogen and oxygen O2 =.85 and H2 =.65 so 78.85 does not make sense unless there is also some water in number. It is also possible cell could be full and the dielectric value changes because there are H2 and O2 intermixed with the water.
Sorry if this is so long but I am trying to understand way things work and what changes to system do.
As an aside at this point, it appears having a ferrite core made up of pieces seems to work as long as you have a means to keep interfaces tight.
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Back to testing: In this series I am looking at cell interface while changing frequency. The load is a 220pF capacitor and 230-ohm resistor in series. The 220pF capacitor is a good match for the inductance of my test system to get resonance around 5khz. Analog voltage was set slightly above minimum valve.
I had earlier tried a test with resistor across the capacitor as Nav had talked about doing resistor across cell to keep up flux in core. In my test this did not work as resistors in parallel limited voltage across cell to mV.
In this series I start round 5khz and worked my way down. I believe I am seeing the system in resonance as there is a definite jump in the voltage which you can see in the Math function and also on CH1 yellow which is on the negative side of the cell. CH2 blue is on positive side of cell. This is the only place I see a big change in offset for both the analog and digital wave trains (I am zoomed in, so this is inside of one pulse).
Note: Assume the frequency displayed is incorrect most cases. I zoomed out to read value or moved scope probe to primary input to check it.
PCC1 is at 5Khz with very slight adjustment to frequency dial to get clean ramp. I am looking a single pulse as it much easier to see change. You can zoom a couple of pulses and still see shape but much further and trace is just a blob.
PCC2 is basically the same setting but just moving dial very slightly lower you can also get same thing by going slightly higher
PCC3 is what you get if you go a little bit higher, I do not get signal back going higher
PCC4 is signal at 4khz
PCC5 is signal at 2.5khz as you scan across you see a slight voltage jump at a few other frequencies like shown here.
PCC6 is signal at 1khz.
PCC7 Is a zoomed in even closer than signal in PPC1 in this case I believe the 5.556kHz number for channel on the scope is correct. I also think based on information I recently read that the shape indicates frequency doubling which means that my diode is working. I wonder about that as I expected to see frequency to double but scope only see it as one pulse. One other thing I recently read was the use of flux sensor which showed flux doubling not sure if it was in same article.
NOTE: When I have the signal that looks like PCC1 the lock light on the board came on. This is the first time that has happen since I got system above about 800hz. It goes out when it looks like PCC2. I have been trying to see if I can find this state using inputs to primary, it is too hard to tell though I can see some change in analog signal. Problem with using lock light is take a little while for it to come on but I can see shape quick on scope.
I still have not figured out what to look at to determine voltage differential across the cell of 1.23v that Ronnie talks about.
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Note
For the People Following , it is vital to remember that stan made over 11 versions all work.
this version being discussed is version 5 to 6 forward and was simplified to injector system ,
the System in discussion is for making high volume of gas when doing so several things will happen, 1 alot of gas pressure,
2 alot of bubbles, 3 alot of nano bubbles , 4 lot of electrons and voltage ,
Controlling and stabilizing cell with this occurring is a skill of the art for this version
consider most advanced
it is not some thing in a text book beyond Stans as it has to be learnt
so we all recognize the effect what is happening and than control tune and control where that pressure and gas bubbles go and
are held.
Earl is doing a fine job of expanding conversation with his detailed testing notes.
, there are several things to keep in mind it is the combined resistance of all parts
to make up measurements, i mentioned from Ronnie and from hours and hours of testing and study
the tuning of the resistance and nano bubbles and smoothing of dbd barrier effect
and spaces when discussing this version .
by mastering all versions we can better understand this version
and than we can make alot of gas on demand with low amps and alot
of nano bubble water. ready for distribution.
Provided we control the state of that water for long period upto 2 years.
KEEP IN MIND Stan Efficiency can be made simply with the other 5 to 6 versions so world can get on using those today
and these version will be continued to be proven understood , but remember the out come of this particular version
is lot more gas than we need so what do we do with it and where to we store it has gas bubbles ?
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Poster of versions for people following
this is a guide only to assist understanding
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In this series I start round 5khz and worked my way down. I believe I am seeing the system in resonance as there is a definite jump in the voltage which you can see in the Math function and also on CH1 yellow which is on the negative side of the cell. CH2 blue is on positive side of cell. This is the only place I see a big change in offset for both the analog and digital wave trains (I am zoomed in, so this is inside of one pulse).
Note: Assume the frequency displayed is incorrect most cases. I zoomed out to read value or moved scope probe to primary input to check it.
PCC1 is at 5Khz with very slight adjustment to frequency dial to get clean ramp. I am looking a single pulse as it much easier to see change. You can zoom a couple of pulses and still see shape but much further and trace is just a blob.
Earl please review Petlov videos on water and signals and Nav Tau space 3 seconds
to see some areas for review
https://www.youtube.com/user/valyonpz
Dan
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Dan
Thanks for the poster and the note about the other versions. It does not surprise me that they exist at he was trying to do a lot of different things. I got into this method mainly due to Ronnie's threads and other that focused on the VIC. Ronnie and others provide a lot of detail on why it worked (all the math and reason for it). I have read those threads and others multiple times and still keep going back to them as move through my stages of testing. I started to build because I have the time and interest but I also had several questions on where things were done as no operator instructions. Questions were where was gate created and introduced, where did he create the analog and digital wave trains, where did he combine them, and even where were the voltage levels set. I think I know the answers to most of those questions now though as you can tell I am still working on new ones (how to set voltage difference across coils and even how to measure it).
One of questions others kept asking was what did the wave train look like. The final signal at the cell does not tell you what goes into creating it. That is what I have been trying to understand and what adjustments do to it. Turns on there is a lot of things you have to set correctly in Stan's circuits to setup before the final controls can be used. I am still not sure if I have the right which is why I try to list them at start of each test series.
One of questions I working on now is Ronnie's comments to tuning. I expect there are two parts to this. Tune the hardware to get coils matched to cells, which he covers in his 2 treads. Second is tuning for each voltage step during conditioning. While he said it need to be done and why he never explained what to change to do it.
I tend to provide to much detail in my reports, if I was writing a users guide I would simplify things, like value of k2 for example to 50hz and show what it looks like, and do this for each functions. The details of circuits I would then put in trouble shooting document as most people don't care they just want to know the minimum to use it.
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Dan,
Thanks, for YouTube reference to Valyonpz. While I had seen some of the Videos it was a long time ago and at the point I did not understand what I was seeing. He does a great job and at explaining things, I like how we includes scope setup and input information so you can really see what he is doing. His explanations of difference methods of showing the same things in Meyer's diagrams was also very useful. I can see I choose to work on the hardest method of doing this. I can see where Stan in version I am working on has built in several of things, like the gate generator and ability to sync on the signals which have to be done manually in other version.
He description of what the sync signal look likes is what I needed for the current testing I am doing.
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Great , well you need the challenge I guess this version takes alot of skill knowledge and practice
i know when you see the other versions alot of it now makes sense and is easier.
Together we the people work to re discover, document better and share and preserve this valuable knowledge
for the world of Hydrogen Hot Rodder's and home builders to preserve.
the Signals into the Db are the important ones to firm up and document for each pin thi than allows people to connect dots from k2 k3
into vic transformer daughter board. , i know and mention again there need to be ( as Russ showed very careful Tip 120 brand model selection on the vic driver daughter board etc
welcome and invite Russ Webmug and Ronnie or other to post part number or brand they feel are solid
Which brand model number part # are you using Earl?
Dan
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For the T120 I purchased a 12 pack of STMiroelectronics TIP120 T...rlington Transistor at least that is what on label. Most likely got them from Amazon as that's where I found most of the parts I needed.
Keep in mind I did not build the VIC board but built test board from the schematics so I have all the parts but on different boards. My connections are direct board to board. In the case of the coils I used strip connectors so my connections are different. Also allow me to disconnect things so I can take measurements at different points.
This picture from Stanley Estate information is what I think you are looking for as it show the pin out to 9-pin going to coils. It also shows all the coil connections to the BP pin numbers see lower right. I think the Feedback coil in middle is drawn wrong S and F connections are mostly correct but 5V Bias is missing and should come from 5 volt regular on board.
In this picture it shows all the connections going to 44 pin back plane (BP). Number on back side I started with 23 same end as front number 1, So
DB9 pin1 goes BP14
DB9 pin2 goes BP16
DB9 pin3 goes BP15
DB9 pin4 goes BP17
DB9 pin5 no connection
DB9 pin6 goes BP22 Gate (A)
DB9 pin7 goes BP1 Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin8 goes BP24 Alternate Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin9 goes BP20 and 21 and multiple other connections (GND)
I know there are pictures in the forum that show what signals are on each of black plane pins I just can find one right now.
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here is what the daughter board and db9 looks like
dd
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Looks like the last stages of K9 but with and extra TIP 120. I l looked at Sketch some more and realized the second TIP is most likely the one from last stage of K4. Sketch show K4 collector output going to BP pin 8 (I believe to test connector) it may go through the 5A1KV diode first and also directly connect to PRI Coil.
Still trying to check a few things on the sketch like pin 8 on 9 pin connector. It appears some pins on card feed through and others do not. The input to Primary is case that they do not, as it could be battery + if switch is in batt position or is can be the output of emitter 2N3055. In the case of pins 27, 28 and 29 are +12vdc and they are tied together, but also must be connected to pin 5 at some point is system. I have seen where he as done that on other cards by drilling whole in card and connecting both sides together. When he does that all connectors now have the same connection.
I spent several hours looking for the picture that shows both sides of the VIC card together where someone had labeled all the signals on both sides of the card connectors. I know it's in the forum as I just saw it again within the last month I just do not remember where.
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Dan,
After more research I modified Pin 9 connections in reply 86 above to show what I found. Change are
DB9 pin6 goes BP22 Gate (A)
DB9 pin7 goes BP1 Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin8 goes BP24 Alternate Analog Input (J)
DB9 pin9 goes BP20 and 21 and multiple other connections (GND)
I decided to look at VIC board connection that DB 9 connect to. I then looked at what should be the signal on that connector on VIC board.
Pin 8 at first look strange as it had the same function as pin 1 Signal (J) then I remembered reading that another 741 had be added to original board to provide another Signal interface from the gas processor I think. In any case these both go to the same output and second could override first or replace it. While pins 1 through 4 show being connected in sketch to 14,15,16 and 17 there are on traces to those pads on the VIC board on either side.
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Dan I looked more at water level in cell and think I was wrong about it dropping below top of cells but I still think the dielectric changes from pure water to a smaller value as gas levels of O2 and H2 increases in the water. This may be why important to keep gas pressure on the cell. Like carbonation in beer and soda stays in liquid until opened. I am also wondering if the 11th cell could be used to measure the dielectric level is reached kind using capacitor tube to determine how full a tank is?
Still trying to figure how things are set and what to check to go on to next step in conditioning the cell.
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yes i agree
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we can note the nano bubble saturation is a key point
separately we can consider Stephen Meyer use a middle electrode to measure, Joe Cell use a middle cell to make resistance to cause a 90" effect to make voltage do work. as with out is voltage goes through not doing work.
Skills of the art are in the details , there are several embodiments but knowing all of some of them sure helps to see for tuning purposes or to actually get a result.
Currently I have made the impedance matching circuit and we have made some 0vc quartz barrier cells ,
I feel is it important to show or make that measurement circuit pcb that
would connect to 11 cell to measure dielectric level changes in type of water or bubble density.
Can you make post such a circuit? draft pcb?
DD
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Dan,
I was looking at articles to see if I could find how to calculate the dielectric value that Stan is using and found an MIT article that was very helpful. Interesting one of things it explained was parallel levels of dielectric are formed in fluids when a charge is built up on the plates (cell walls) and that you can calculate the new energy value using the formulas for capacitors in parallel with different dielectric values. I guess we do not really need to do as Stan has told us what to use for this value 78.54.
I was trying to estimate how much capacitance would change from water to water with Stan's value. In think I came up with a value around 60pF but I am not sure now it is important as 78.54 is in the range of water types that Stan's says the system can handle.
Before even being to design a method to use another cell to check cell state I would need a working cell and even then I do not have the knowledge needed to do it. While I can build things I have never been a circuit designer.
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I made a couple of changes to my boards. To give me finer control of frequency I changed the dial pot on the Phase Lock Circuit (K21) to a trim pot and moved LEDs to front panel. This also gave me slightly more range as well as I can now get above 10khz. This turns out to be helpful in finding and setting the resonant points.
Other change was to put additional capacitors on both 5vdc and 10vdc power feeds to boards. I did this as I was seeing large spikes in the analog signal that also blend over in digital when they are merged across the Primary coil. The spikes also caused both signals to jump around which has mostly stopped. I have also ordered a better DC power supply.
Pictures below are after making these changes which both helped a lot. Part of this testing was to see the effect of the changes and I was also trying to see how the signals changed with frequency. In these pictures I have also switched the scope probes to be AC coupled.
Pictures P1-p2 show the capacitor being charged P1 is around 2K and P2 3K. P3 is approx. 4k and zoomed in to Half on one gate pulse.
P4 is in sync at 7.333khz. In this picture CH1 is on input to primary and you can see analog pulse out of L1 into cell being inside of the single Digital pulses on primary inputs. Note: when I switch CH1 to L2 input to cell board loses sync (so scope effects readings). Additional note. The 2 lower signals is more like what I am seeing when I use the differential probe.
Picture P5 is one gage pulse with signals in sync and P6 show both signals when you zoom way in.
Yellow is CH1 on side L2 side or Digital input to Primary, Blue is CH2 all on analog side L1 and Purple is the Math function of scope A-B where CH1 is A and CH2 is B.
One of the reasons of doing this series of tests was to give me a new baseline with cleaned up signals. I was also was watching changes to differential signal as my new differential probe arrived today. While I played with new probe after it arrive not ready to post results yet. I will do that in another post. It does provide a must cleaner signal to scope.
One note you do lose the sync information in P6 with the differential probe. But with the cleaner signals I am finding the sync light on K21 is working.
Note: All these tests where done with the same gain and offset values which were both just set above what I think are the minimum values to keep changes to the system to be just frequency in this case. I will note that in the past I have see a resonant point at lower frequency with a higher offset. I have read that this may be due to more energy in the harmonics.
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I purchased a MIcsig DP2003 High Voltage Differential Probe (Approx. $240). It has 2 ranges 560V(200x) and 5600V(200x) as I want to be able to check cells with higher. The have another model the Micsig DP1003 with 50x/500x up to 1300V would have been a better match to my O-scope as it has a 50x range. The one I purchased works great, but the voltage displayed is low by a factor of 2. When I was looking for probe, I saw reviews that said O-scope would just to range of probes or you could download new ranges, however, that did not work for my older scope. I will try to make note of this when I post scope pictures, so people know value for it on screen is incorrect.
As the differential probed does not use the system ground it give a true reading on the voltage across the interface to the cell and very clean signal as all the common mode noise is removed. In screen shots I set the probes to show the pulses up to match the signal going into primary coil which I am using as frequency reference, you can do this by either moving the probes or using invert function of scope. This is for display purpose only as the only signal the cell sees it the one on cell interface.
The pictures below show my next series of test. I repeated the above testing but added a few more tests points at I wanted to capture points where the signal made a change. Input analog signal set to minimum gain and offset. Analog frequency and gate is approximately 41hz and gate has 50% duty cycle. Only the frequency was changed pictures show the digital input to primary in yellow on CH1 which I used to set frequency and provide a reference signal for the CH2 blue which is from the differential probe on the cell interface (In this case a capacitor and resistors to provide load, no cells so sync reading will be off from complete system).
NOTE: The differential probe reading on scope is low by a factor of times 2 as probe scale does match scopes.
Goal is to see how the differential signal changes as frequency changes. In most case the table show the signal zoomed in on one digital pulse in the left table cell and the right show same signal zoomed out so you can see either complete gate pulse or multiple pulses with gates shown. Couple of exceptions P1 and P24 are in the first row of one table and last few rows of second table show a few special items. Dan P24 is close to the signal in the YouTube videos you recommended I look at to see what resonance signal looks like.
The shape of the signal on the cell changes with frequency as expected. It ramps up as the capacitor charges, but shape of ramp varies depending on the phasing of the digital and analog inputs. The zoomed signal shows that the number of pulses in each digital pulse varies with frequency in pictures below they varies from a high of 6 at 700hz to 1 at 11khz. The position of the pulses also changes which I believe also effects the shape of each Gate Pulse. You can see this it the second picture in each row.
In some case you can see the charge of the capacitor ramp up then level off for the rest of the gate pulse. At select points the ramp is a straight slope P23 but getting that is very touchy and usually happen just before signal is in resonance. Usually shortly before that happens there is sag in the startup ramp see P23.
When the signal is resonance the differential signal is a straight line P20 and P21. Also, at 5khz P14 and P15 while not complete zero the differential signal is flat with no ramp up charge.
P18 and P19 show what happens when I slightly increased frequency above 5khz where the output signal was flat. Look closely at these 2 pictures in P18 you can see the input frequency jumping around and in P19 where I change it slightly input frequency levels off, but you can see a ramp in top of blue signal.
Ronnie has stated you do not want to be in exact resonance but slight off, I wonder it the point where you have the straight slope could be the point he is talking about (P13 and P22). I also wonder is you are at point where the signal ramps up then levels off would like they charge you can get on the cells, see P23 it show the leveling off that I am talking about. This happens at several other points as frequency increases.
While I do not show it here, I did do a quick check to we what would happen if changed offset. Did this test at 5khz. To see this, I turned DC coupling on both scope channels, and moved CH1 to analog input to primary and put scope sync on CH2 as it had a nice clean pulse. By doing this I was able to see both the analog input and differential output change. The levels on both stayed in sync and moved the same amount on the scope. I plan on doing more testing on to very nothing else changes, but this is what I expected to happen.
While this is what I expect the signals should look like the values I am getting are for my test setup and I expect they will be different for an operational system. At this point I am still trying to understand what the controls do.
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Nice to see some cleaner signals etc, but we should all note we must stay under 10kz in my opinion
Stan did mention this i will try to find the reference.
invite comments on that note that capacitance and smoothing can be gain in the cell design rather than circuit
so becareful not to over engineer the circuit when no cell attached
Dan
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Understand and I agree which is why I added caution about this been a test configuration. Ronnie repeated mentions you need to design to cells. The high frequency came because the trim pot has more range. I know my system coils are not set up properly but did not want to make changes until I could see the results of the those changes. I think with the cleaner signals I should be able to do that now. One thing I did not point out is in some of my earlier testing I did see solid resonant lock at lower frequencies with higher offsets. Note: 11khz is at the top end of the range of Stan's circuit after that you lose all signals.
Also before I start to balance chokes I wanted a better idea of what is a good figure for the capacitance of the cells. One of the reason I was looking at dielectric values and trying to understand how they change as cell is charged.
I also expect that once set frequency will not be changed often as the control for this in on a pot on the Vic board not on the front panel.
My next step is very that signal shape does not change when you set the frequency and change the offset. I will do this at several points. I have already did that for 5khz as I mentioned above so I believe will also be true at other points but I will do tests to verify.
After those test I plan on doing more test on changing number turns on choke just to see what that does to signal. Will all change gape again to see what it does to signal. Before all I did was measure the H change of coils.
Dan I have been looking at things from Ronnie's post in this thread .
"Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« on October 22nd, 2016, 04:13 AM »Last edited on October 23rd, 2016, 05:58 PM
He talks in the first few posts about how resonance should be designed to occur when cell is empty of water and it should occur around 11 volts. Several post later he talks about how the coils should be set to create a signal that is out of phase. Phasing is one of things I am trying to understand and figure out how to test. He also states people are looking at frequency doubling wrong as it should only occur after resonance. He even talks about changing cells capacitance when using Fifo;ar-warp chokes as way to balance system when using this method.
I think I need to read this thread again as I have a better understanding of what he was trying to tell us.
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Just finished rereading by condensed version of "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works". I get something out it every time I read it in part because I not understand better what they are saying. In this case the things Ronnie says about tuning were very helpful as I am the process of trying to understand the steps to do that. One of the things that has been bothering me was the 1.23V differential he said was need across the cell to keep water polarized. I had remembered value but forgot that it was the DC offset which is always applied to cell anytime power is on. So when cell is turn off the offset is still there (cell can be off buy power on). This offset sets the voltage that keeps the charge on the plates balance 2+ H ions to 1- O ion. I was trying to figure out how to measure this when power to cell was increasing but it does not apply then.
There is discussion in this thread on turns ratio, adjusting phase angle, what gap does, and that they need to tuned to get max power out of the system. Bad new is changing one effects others so it a balancing act. While I knew that my test system was different that operating system as I am using a capacitor and not a water cell, Ronnie points out that the systems operate differently before and after resonance. He says we have a dead short with water in cell that blocks the coils from fully interacting before resonance. After resonance the short is removed and only then do they interact and we get frequency doubling. Until then we are using amp leakage to create gas and when there is enough gas under then we get resonance. Note: I have posted my condensed version of this thread in a PDF document and it is still 110 pages long. Post above is actually out that document. It has links back to original thread imbedded.
I do plan to continue with my current testing a am continuing to learn more about the system and obtaining a better understanding of what happen when I make a change.
One thing he did method briefly it is better to do initial turning in air manually. By that he means without using the phase lock circuit. I can see why in my testing once you get close to a phase lock it is hard to make a frequency change. (See reference below)
Re: "Understanding How Stan Meyers Fuel Cell Works"
« Reply #444, on November 4th, 2016, 06:14 PM »
Quote from ~Russ on November 4th, 2016, 06:03 PM
I would call it a variable in our math, aka we need to know theses as even frequency play's a BIG roll on the capacitance.
~Russ
Exactly, Now you and others wanted to know how to tune the system.
What I am about to say and show is for manual tuning only, with no feedback coil or phase lock loop device.
I have stated many times you have to start out at a couple volts and work your way up a couple volts at a time while tuning until you reach full voltage.
What I am about to show everyone is how to use a fixed L to tune into a variable C It is all done by frequency.
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Earl can you post pdf here you mention above
To Help others understand
Stan Meyers WATERFUEL- Cell
Other helpful terms
Nano bubble fuel cell
Voltrolysis cell
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Dan it is already posted in WFC - Collection of Posts From 2 Huge Treads About How WFC Works https://open-source-energy.org/?topic=3431.msg52864#msg52864 There are 2 PDFs attached. (You should already have them as you asked me to put them into PDF instead of word documents).
There were 2 huge threads where Ronnie and others talked about designing VIC I copied what thought were the most important ones into these two documents. When I reference a topic I generally get reference out these documents as I can quickly scan through them. As both documents have the links back to the original threads you can quickly go to them and see other discussions around them who made post. The posts with Re: highlighted in green are Ronnie's. Please note: I did not generate the information only collected it together for my own use. I have made minor edits to make easier to read mostly spelling etc.
Between these two threads there are examples of all the math needed to balance impendence and resistance plus a lot hints about what works and why. This is not short the work of others as I have read most all the other threads and made use of the information in them.
Ronnie talks about tuning around resonance frequency to get max power into system. I have noticed in my testing that while it looks like there should be a sync point around 5khz,as you can see in picture above the lock like does not come at when at low power. However, I have seen it come on when I was testing high power though getting it to do that was a very minor change in frequency. Only notice this as I had set frequency at 5khz and only changed gain.
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As I mentioned above I could get my board to sync at lower frequency with a high gain setup. So I tried to do it again. Start with 5khz and turned up offset to high level (still not sure best way to measure that). I was watch in output of differential probe on cell and Digital input to Primary. They stayed in sync but board did not lock when I zoomed out the shape was not the sync shape so I reduced the frequency until out put differential probe looked right and board lite lock light lite up (I remember when I did this before sync was below 5khz and is at 3.788khz). Note: my test system cokes are not correctly balanced and just using a capacitor for load.
The 4 pictures below show the signals when board is in sync.
CH1 - Yellow is the Digital signal into Primary coil and my reference signal
CH2 - Blue is the differential signal into Capacitor
Scope on CH1 and CH2 set to AC coupling
First picture is a looking inside a gate pulse at the individual pulses
Second picture same setting except zoomed out to see multiple gates pulses
Scope on CH1 and CH2 set to DC coupling - allows me to see the off DC offset and on input an idea offset setting Note: Both signal move with this change.
First picture is a looking inside a gate pulse at the individual pulses
Second picture same setting except zoomed out to see multiple gates pulses
Things are starting to be repeatable which is good news. Though I an still trying to figure out a reliable way to know exact offset value. Pot is multiple turn so does not provide an idea of value. DC offset is best way I found so far but when you look at analog signal into Primary coil it jumps around so hard to know what the offset is.
Guess what I am trying to say is I use both AC and DC view when setting things.
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I think I finally figure to see setting the input offset (voltage) using a method I can see exactly where I am at. Having the differential probe helped as at times I was getting cross talk when I had both normal probes on input to primary. Also, at higher offset the analog input to primary gets so noisy that it was useless in trying to see what was happening to signal. While I had seen the digital signal grow with gain in the past it never stayed level on bottom. So, with digital signal stable I looked at gain again this time starting from max gain as that is where I had left system.
One thing I did notice when I turned system back on It took several seconds for lock light to come on, I believe that is mainly due to delay in phase lock system. It also means it is not the best thing to use when looking for lock as you need to wait seconds between each change.
When I changed offset, I notice lower end moved little over whole range so I turn on Vbas so I could see this. I then turned of Vamp (difference between Vbas and Vtop) and watched this when I changed offset. This tracks very well if you are zoomed in on a few pulses. Both Channels have DC coupling turned on. Total voltage then is Vbas + Vamp so you start around 2v and go to approx. 11v.
CH1 Yellow on scope is the digital input to primary.
CH2 Blue is the signal across the cell (capacitor) input. Note: Low by a factor of 2. Invert is off for this series. I had it on in above photo just to see peek analog in digital pulses.
P1 shows the 2 signals at max offset. At this point turning pot more does nothing at limit of TIP741. System is in sync and Lock light is on.
P2 show shows the same set thing only I switched to 3x range on K21 so I am a factor of 10 lower at 378.8hz. I did for a reason, when I was check what range I wanted to watch on scope I had lower offset. When I was nearing max offset, I saw the analog signal move up slightly to look like P1. What is happening show better using the 3x range. Turns out it was not in complete sync until at max value. By chance this is the condition that Ronnie says you should have.
P3 Is the system in 3x setting with gain turned down and you can see the ramp in the Blue channel. I turned offset down far enough to make it apparent. As you turn gain us this ramp flattens until it looks like P2. You can also see this in 4x setting at 3.788hkz when you look at whole gate pulse but it not as apparent. Not sure I would have caught this if I had not seen blue signal jump up slightly.
P4 I kept lowering offset until I saw the digital signal started to deform. That starts here at about Vamp = 1.71v so I captured the signals. You can see the deformed signal better in P5.
P5 is the lowest you can set the offset. Turning pot does not more at this point Vamp approx. 1.09v.
P6 is lowest offset setting but zoomed to show signals at 378.8hz
P7 is lowest offset at 3.8khz zoomed to show single gate pulse. You can see the ramp up that disappears at max offset.
I can see why Stan only can select either the digital or analog signals test points. You need the digital to set the offset and watch frequency. You need the analog to set the minimum gain value. I turned it up until all the digital pulses where full. I think I showed this happening in posts above.
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Looking good Earl, keep it coming :thumbsup:
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HI Earl
I purchased a MIcsig DP2003 High Voltage Differential Probe (Approx. $240).
Re This I think we would all love to see pictures of the probe you have model and random pic of the part or box
Dan
I purchased a MIcsig DP2003 High Voltage Differential Probe (Approx. $240). It has 2 ranges 560V(200x) and 5600V(200x) as I want to be able to check cells with higher. The have another model the Micsig DP1003 with 50x/500x up to 1300V would have been a better match to my O-scope as it has a 50x range. The one I purchased works great, but the voltage displayed is low by a factor of 2. When I was looking for probe, I saw reviews that said O-scope would just to range of probes or you could download new ranges, however, that did not work for my older scope. I will try to make note of this when I post scope pictures, so people know value for it on screen is incorrect.
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That's it but there are 2 more sets of probes one with hidden clamps in tip and one with pointed tips for probing. I am using the one with clamps in tip for my testing. One of the YouTube reviewers had both and said this DPS2003 has better quality probes but that they have basic the same electronic inside. You can see the additional probes in photo.
By the way $240 include shipping from eBay Amazon was out of stock and did not know when they were getting more.
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thanks nice
Gotta buys some of these
Dan
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Test on hold ran into a problem the T120 failed in the Cell Driver circuit. Trouble shooting - signal was good into it bad coming out. I replaced but still does not look right. Happen after doing sync above 10K not sure it that was the problem. Until recently I was being careful to not let it go that high. There was some discussion in one of the threads about diode to choke not work properly when in sync not enough current to cause it work. Not sure if this had anything to do with my problem. Slowly starting from front and working forward seems to be a 10V offset to analog that was not there before which is gone if I disconnect digital signal.
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YEs Tip120 Selection important also
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While helping Dan document the VIC board, I learned more about one of the Patches on Stan’s VIC board. I do not have that patch in my test systems as I build all my boards from schematics, so they are not an exact duplicated of Stan’s VIC.
I could see where the patch was connected but I wanted to see what it does to the signals. It turns it is pretty easy to install patch on by test setup as I used screw connectors and have easy access to multiple points on the board including the ones used in the patch.
The patch hooks up to the 4x switch position “1X” (which comes from pin 4 of the 4046 chip). This signal is the high frequency digital signal and contains the gate.
Patch runs from 1x to a 22K resistor connected to ground through 0.22uF capacitor, capacitor is on the same side as the input. The output of the resistor is connected, to PRI-S on the input side of the diode 1N5408, which places it between the Primary coil and diode.
In my test system I hooked up the capacitor and resistor with a couple of patch cords to do test so I could add it and remove it easily so I could see what changes.
Test setup. I have a baseline frequency and gate of 41.67hz which is also the baseline analog frequency. Gate is set to 50% duty cycle. The offset and gain is set to minimum levels that I have been using for most of testing. Frequency to the digital signal is set to 1khz and did not change any of these value during the tests.
For initial test I have scope probe inputs set to DC offset.
CH1- Yellow it the digital side of primary F+
CH2- Bule is the analog side of primary S-
Picture 1 show the input to the primary without the patch and is what I typical see for these settings. I have set levels to 1V for both sides so you can see the ramp on the analog channels.
Picture 2 is with the patch hooked up. No other changes I wanted to show ramp on analog signal is still there. (Hard to see on high scale setting on the scope).
Picture 3 is the same as picture 2 with scope scale set to 5V for both channels no other changes.
Picture 4 is the same as picture 2 but zoomed in
Picture 5 is the same as picture 2 but zoomed in even closer
Picture 6 I did not change setup but did put my differential Probe on CH2 scope probe is set to 100 but probe is 200 so reading off by a factor of 2. I want to show what signal to cell looks like. This is without patch. CH1 is still hooked to primary input and provide scope sync reference.
Picture 7 same setting as picture 6 but with patch installed. Notice that the signal across cell does not appear to change.
Picture 8 is the same as P7 but zoomed in.
One other thing I noticed is the lock LED is not pulsing at 1K it was not before.
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The large signal you see on both side of primary in picture 2 with the patch in place will get substracted as it appears on both sides which is why you do not see a change in the signal to the cells in pictures 7 and 8.
I will have to see what this will do being able to watch offset in analog signal to determine. Voltage level into primary 2-11V. I did not look at that as I was just trying to see what patch did to signals.
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I installed a smaller sized capacitor not sure of voltage but the capacitor I used above the was 100V as that is all I thought I had. But check this morning as I had purchased a box of small ceramic caps and it had some .33uf so installed one and got this results. Wondered about this as picture of board had a small capacitor. You can see difference in shape in this close in view.
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Test of the effect of OFFET and Idle Adjust on Primary and Cell Interface
This series looks at what happens to [J] if signal provided to K9 Voltage Amplitude Control is at an offset level. I have been working with Dan on a version of the VIC card that has a 741 that receives a signal to increase gas production (input from GAS FEEDBACK). Based on where this signal is injected into VIC my speculation is that it is signal based on J but at a higher voltage level (offset). As I have not built the Gas Feedback card, I have no way to verify this. However, I do have a way to increase the energy level (offset) of [J]. I did this by raising the offset by using the Idle control on K8, Analog Voltage Generator. The series of picture below show the results of these tests.
Initial conditions, I started with the same basic minimum conditions I have been using for most of the testing I did above. Analog signal 41.67hz, Digital frequency 1khz, analog signal offset in K8 just above minimum level around 2.32v, offset and gain in K9 set to give signal in picture 1 below.
One thing that is different is I now have the patch in system that provides the digital signal to the analog side of input to Primary.
Test of this patch are shown in prior post.
CH1 – yellow is on Digital side of input to Primary Coil F+
CH2 – Blue is on the Analog side of input to Primary Coil S-
Picture 1 -Shows initial conditions set above. I had set Offset and Gain to fill the spaces in-between the pulses.
Picture 2 - I raised the Idle Offset on K8. Notice the fill between pulse is gone and those in space are also reduced. I stopped raising level to leave some of the fill in the space.
Picture 3 – I raised the Idle Offset on K8 some more and the fill is now gone. I did change setting on scope to better show that the AM wave is still there as it is harder to see at higher scale settings.
Picture 4 – I raised the OFFSET on K9 and the fill returned.
At this point I wanted to see what this was doing to the signal on the cell interface. So, I reconfigure system to initial conditions and change scope setup.
As digital signal was not changing, I move channel one to analog side and put my differential probe on channel 2 (reading off by factor of 2). CH2 is now on cell interface. The advantage of using the analog channel is with patch installed you can now see both the analog and digital signal and even the fill.
CH1 – Yellow Analog input to Primary Coil
CH2 – Blue Signal across the Cell interface
Picture 5 - Shows the initial conditions for this configuration. Your can see the fill in-between pulses.
Picture 6 – I raised the Idle Offset on K8 and fill is gone and the signal on Cell Interface flattened.
Picture 7 – I raised the Offset on K9 and fill returned and signal regained ramp.
I am still not sure what the setting needs to be. I am still trying to see how the signal changes when system controls are changed. In operations both these controls will have been set to some minimum value and then locked. I expect that same will apply to the Gain Control on K9. At this point, I do know if I just raise the OFFSET on K9 the fill does not disappear. I can also verify that voltage to primary does not start to raise until the space between the pulses is filled. I did not try to adjust the gain for this series as I wanted to keep down the number of things being changed
NOTE: I am using a capacitor with a resistor in series to simulate cell for all the above tests.
One conclusion I can made. The patch is a big help as you can see what is happening on one channel of the scope. This is important as the test point on the VIC front panel only show one side of the primary input at a time. In the analog signal you can now see the gate, the digital frequency, the analog signal and voltage level of the analog signal though that is harder to determine.
For this series, I cheated and had put a voltmeter across the input to the OFFSET so I could easily reset it to my known minimum level. It also let me see what level I was setting it to as I changed it. Did this as I have been having a hard time finding a scope reading for analog signal that stable enough to give an accurate reading for this value.
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Nice Earl
One conclusion The patch is a big help as you can see what is happening on one channel of the scope. This is important as the test point on the VIC front panel only show one side of the primary input at a time.
Note for those reading the voltage during gate should not ground or fall to zero as we want to ensure cell and water remains charged positive where possible to get the effect and constantan production of gas and water keeps its holding ability for any dissolved gases Dan