The Fastest Way (for me) to Build Stan's Circuit and to Create a WFC kit

[BAM5]

Alright, so I have a bunch of spare time now a days so I am pretty motivated to build Stan's Circuit and start experimenting. I've already built my test cell and have done a little brute force electrolysis with it. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to replicate Stan's cell as quickly as possible. I took apart an old florescent ballast for the transformer, but can't get any arc off of it at all with a unipolar square wave signal, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and change the ratio of the coil to get a higher output voltage. To take care of the tricky part I'm going to program my Arduino Uno to send out a PWM wave that I'll modify directly through programming and not use the built in PWM function of Arduino. This way I'll be able to control the duty cycle length and the pulse width. I'll use serial communication through the console to change the signal on the fly to experiment with the frequency. Eventually I'll build a scanning function to detect the resonant frequency. I'll attach the signal to a MOSFET and power it through my DC power supply at 12 V to the transformer.

What do you folks think? There are some pretty experienced people in here and I'd like to get some wisdom so I can take care of any problems before I run into them.

If this works I hope to possibly develop an Arduino shield for Stan's cell, this way the difficult electronics is taken care of and people can build and replicate Stan's circuit quickly and easily since the electronics are what most people struggle with.

Please let me know what you think!

-Brian

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-05-2012 07:04 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  Alright, so I have a bunch of spare time now a days so I am pretty motivated to build Stan's Circuit and start experimenting. I've already built my test cell and have done a little brute force electrolysis with it. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to replicate Stan's cell as quickly as possible. I took apart an old florescent ballast for the transformer, but can't get any arc off of it at all with a unipolar square wave signal, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and change the ratio of the coil to get a higher output voltage. To take care of the tricky part I'm going to program my Arduino Uno to send out a PWM wave that I'll modify directly through programming and not use the built in PWM function of Arduino. This way I'll be able to control the duty cycle length and the pulse width. I'll use serial communication through the console to change the signal on the fly to experiment with the frequency. Eventually I'll build a scanning function to detect the resonant frequency. I'll attach the signal to a MOSFET and power it through my DC power supply at 12 V to the transformer.

What do you folks think? There are some pretty experienced people in here and I'd like to get some wisdom so I can take care of any problems before I run into them.

If this works I hope to possibly develop an Arduino shield for Stan's cell, this way the difficult electronics is taken care of and people can build and replicate Stan's circuit quickly and easily since the electronics are what most people struggle with.

Please let me know what you think!

-Brian

You could follow this tutorial to generate the square waves that are sent to a mosfet/relay to boost the signal to the vic coils and on to the cells.

If someone can relate to me the general method of connecting the coils and how the "lock" is obtained, I could write the code that does what the circuit does.

[Jeff Nading]

(06-05-2012 07:04 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  Alright, so I have a bunch of spare time now a days so I am pretty motivated to build Stan's Circuit and start experimenting. I've already built my test cell and have done a little brute force electrolysis with it. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to replicate Stan's cell as quickly as possible. I took apart an old florescent ballast for the transformer, but can't get any arc off of it at all with a unipolar square wave signal, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and change the ratio of the coil to get a higher output voltage. To take care of the tricky part I'm going to program my Arduino Uno to send out a PWM wave that I'll modify directly through programming and not use the built in PWM function of Arduino. This way I'll be able to control the duty cycle length and the pulse width. I'll use serial communication through the console to change the signal on the fly to experiment with the frequency. Eventually I'll build a scanning function to detect the resonant frequency. I'll attach the signal to a MOSFET and power it through my DC power supply at 12 V to the transformer.

What do you folks think? There are some pretty experienced people in here and I'd like to get some wisdom so I can take care of any problems before I run into them.

If this works I hope to possibly develop an Arduino shield for Stan's cell, this way the difficult electronics is taken care of and people can build and replicate Stan's circuit quickly and easily since the electronics are what most people struggle with.

Please let me know what you think!

-Brian

Say Brian, can you post a schematic on this project? Thanks, Jeff.

[~Russ/Rwg42985]

(06-05-2012 07:04 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  Alright, so I have a bunch of spare time now a days so I am pretty motivated to build Stan's Circuit and start experimenting. I've already built my test cell and have done a little brute force electrolysis with it. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to replicate Stan's cell as quickly as possible. I took apart an old florescent ballast for the transformer, but can't get any arc off of it at all with a unipolar square wave signal, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and change the ratio of the coil to get a higher output voltage. To take care of the tricky part I'm going to program my Arduino Uno to send out a PWM wave that I'll modify directly through programming and not use the built in PWM function of Arduino. This way I'll be able to control the duty cycle length and the pulse width. I'll use serial communication through the console to change the signal on the fly to experiment with the frequency. Eventually I'll build a scanning function to detect the resonant frequency. I'll attach the signal to a MOSFET and power it through my DC power supply at 12 V to the transformer.

What do you folks think? There are some pretty experienced people in here and I'd like to get some wisdom so I can take care of any problems before I run into them.

If this works I hope to possibly develop an Arduino shield for Stan's cell, this way the difficult electronics is taken care of and people can build and replicate Stan's circuit quickly and easily since the electronics are what most people struggle with.

Please let me know what you think!

-Brian

looks like a good setup!

~Russ

[BAM5]

FloatyBoaty: I can't use tone, although I'll be setting up a similar function. The reason I can't use it is because I need a custom duty cycle, I plan on swishing the charges around in the circuit like a normal LC would, but I'll add more voltage around each time. this way the electric fields on the plates are alternating, pushing the charged atoms apart and then pulling on them from the other side in the next instant. But since I can only do unipolar pulses, I need to wait for the current to go back around the other way to push again, like a swing, you don't push from the back and front, you push them, wait for them to go up, and then come back and go up, then you push them again. Same thing goes with the charges in the LC circuit. I too would also like to know how a lock is recognized. I think it would be when the amperage in the LC circuit drops dramatically. But I'm not sure about that. Or if there are other ways to determine it.

Jeff: Here ya go! This is the circuit I want to work on right now. What's here is the bare minimum to get Stan's circuit working (I believe.) In parentheses I've added improvements to the circuit I'd like to make in the future.

Russ: Thanks!

[Jeff Nading]

(06-06-2012 05:33 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  FloatyBoaty: I can't use tone, although I'll be setting up a similar function. The reason I can't use it is because I need a custom duty cycle, I plan on swishing the charges around in the circuit like a normal LC would, but I'll add more voltage around each time. this way the electric fields on the plates are alternating, pushing the charged atoms apart and then pulling on them from the other side in the next instant. But since I can only do unipolar pulses, I need to wait for the current to go back around the other way to push again, like a swing, you don't push from the back and front, you push them, wait for them to go up, and then come back and go up, then you push them again. Same thing goes with the charges in the LC circuit. I too would also like to know how a lock is recognized. I think it would be when the amperage in the LC circuit drops dramatically. But I'm not sure about that. Or if there are other ways to determine it.

Jeff: Here ya go! This is the circuit I want to work on right now. What's here is the bare minimum to get Stan's circuit working (I believe.) In parentheses I've added improvements to the circuit I'd like to make in the future.

Russ: Thanks!

Thanks Brian, looks like it should work.

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-06-2012 05:33 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  FloatyBoaty: I can't use tone, although I'll be setting up a similar function. The reason I can't use it is because I need a custom duty cycle, I plan on swishing the charges around in the circuit like a normal LC would, but I'll add more voltage around each time. this way the electric fields on the plates are alternating, pushing the charged atoms apart and then pulling on them from the other side in the next instant. But since I can only do unipolar pulses, I need to wait for the current to go back around the other way to push again, like a swing, you don't push from the back and front, you push them, wait for them to go up, and then come back and go up, then you push them again. Same thing goes with the charges in the LC circuit. I too would also like to know how a lock is recognized. I think it would be when the amperage in the LC circuit drops dramatically. But I'm not sure about that. Or if there are other ways to determine it.

Jeff: Here ya go! This is the circuit I want to work on right now. What's here is the bare minimum to get Stan's circuit working (I believe.) In parentheses I've added improvements to the circuit I'd like to make in the future.

Russ: Thanks!

Ah, can you give me a graphic or something that will show me what the signal will look like going into the primary? And, if possible, what the feed back will look like? I believe you should be able to fake a duty cycle by adjusting the BAUD rate and write out put on digital pin 1. Digital pin 1 can be used as a serial port, and by adjusting the output and timing the signal will vary - thereby faking the duty cycle. The feed back coil can be read with either digital pin 0 or one of the analog pins - but I would suggest using a relay or similar on that also.

If you, or someone, can show or tell me how the signal to the primary and from the feedback would look like, then I can write the code to generate that signal and variate it manually and/or automatically.

[BAM5]

Cool, thanks Jeff!

Floaty, I have no issues with programming, in fact I like to think myself quite adept at it. Interesting idea with the tx pin. But if you look at the diagram I am using the serial pins to communicate with the computer at the moment. And I'll probably want to keep that functionality if this circuit works well, even with scanning, that way I can have diagnostics, custom displays, etc. I was just thinking of changing a pin from high to low a bunch during the times that the current comes around the correct way within the circuit. Check out the attached image to see what I mean about the swishing in an LC circuit.

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-06-2012 03:16 PM)BAM5 Wrote:  Floaty, I have no issues with programming, in fact I like to think myself quite adept at it. Interesting idea with the tx pin. But if you look at the diagram I am using the serial pins to communicate with the computer at the moment. And I'll probably want to keep that functionality if this circuit works well, even with scanning, that way I can have diagnostics, custom displays, etc. I was just thinking of changing a pin from high to low a bunch during the times that the current comes around the correct way within the circuit. Check out the attached image to see what I mean about the swishing in an LC circuit.

Does your board not have a USB port? Ah, never mind, it's connected together. Looks like you'll need to upgrade to a Mega to use that idea...
By using the analogWrite() to a digital pin you can vary the duty cycle, but the cycle time would stay the same - "about 500Hz" (2ms per cycle).
You could also use loop a bitWrite() to get an effect that's similar to writing to the tx.

I'm grabbing ideas by looking over http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/HomePage

If you do program it, I would like to see your implementation.

---

Btw, I haven't studied EE, so I'm trying to catch up as fast as I can. I've studied and done a lot of programming though.

[nbq201]

I'm right there with you. I have an Arudino board too, and even though I come from an electronics and I.T. background and I'm rather interested to built a new circuit using the Arduino as the generator and control, and then external ones for stepping up the voltage. See how clean it can be made with MOS/FET, Opto-Isolators, and control it all, changing the pulse, Amplitude, frequency, duty cycle, etc. I saw some code here a while back for Pulse Width Modulation to do some of this, too.

It's 9 ramp-type pulses, stepped up ever slightly on each pulse incrementally on each - (divided by 3 parts equally???)

I like the raw approach here. it's fixed frequency, but interesting ideas. This circuit generates Square wave, triangle wave（2 types) and sine wave:

The last signal here looks rather interesting.
http://iteadstudio.com/application-note/...otoshield/

they have a kit here,:
http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?m...cts_id=186

---

Good Staircase waveform like what we need:
http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/02/26/arbi...h-arduino/

Very clean sinewaves.
http://interface.khm.de/index.php/lab/ex...generator/

This interface is also interesting using the AD9835 Signal Generator. It's unfiltered and needs a filter on the output. Someone posted the UNO code on the comments, too:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9169

Another Idea:
http://midnightdesignsolutions.com/dds60/index.html

design using three DDS cards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlY0ppC-4c

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-06-2012 05:47 PM)nbq201 Wrote:  I'm right there with you. I have an Arudino board too, and even though I come from an electronics and I.T. background and I'm rather interested to built a new circuit using the Arduino as the generator and control, and then external ones for stepping up the voltage. See how clean it can be made with MOS/FET, Opto-Isolators, and control it all, changing the pulse, Amplitude, frequency, duty cycle, etc. I saw some code here a while back for Pulse Width Modulation to do some of this, too.

It's 9 ramp-type pulses, stepped up ever slightly on each pulse incrementally on each - (divided by 3 parts equally???)

I like the raw approach here. it's fixed frequency, but interesting ideas. This circuit generates Square wave, triangle wave（2 types) and sine wave:

The last signal here looks rather interesting.
http://iteadstudio.com/application-note/...otoshield/

they have a kit here,:
http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?m...cts_id=186

---

Good Staircase waveform like what we need:
http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/02/26/arbi...h-arduino/

Very clean sinewaves.
http://interface.khm.de/index.php/lab/ex...generator/

I wonder if these wave forms can be written to an analog pin...

[Jeff Nading]

(06-06-2012 05:47 PM)nbq201 Wrote:  I'm right there with you. I have an Arudino board too, and even though I come from an electronics and I.T. background and I'm rather interested to built a new circuit using the Arduino as the generator and control, and then external ones for stepping up the voltage. See how clean it can be made with MOS/FET, Opto-Isolators, and control it all, changing the pulse, Amplitude, frequency, duty cycle, etc. I saw some code here a while back for Pulse Width Modulation to do some of this, too.

It's 9 ramp-type pulses, stepped up ever slightly on each pulse incrementally on each - (divided by 3 parts equally???)

I like the raw approach here. it's fixed frequency, but interesting ideas. This circuit generates Square wave, triangle wave（2 types) and sine wave:

The last signal here looks rather interesting.
http://iteadstudio.com/application-note/...otoshield/

they have a kit here,:
http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?m...cts_id=186

---

Good Staircase waveform like what we need:
http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/02/26/arbi...h-arduino/

Very clean sinewaves.
http://interface.khm.de/index.php/lab/ex...generator/

This interface is also interesting using the AD9835 Signal Generator. It's unfiltered and needs a filter on the output. Someone posted the UNO code on the comments, too:
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9169

Very cool thoughts guys, I have the mega and the Uno, both have usb.

[nbq201]

(06-06-2012 06:10 PM)FloatyBoaty Wrote:  

(06-06-2012 05:47 PM)nbq201 Wrote:  I'm right there with you. I have an Arudino board too, and even though I come from an electronics and I.T. background and I'm rather interested to built a new circuit using the Arduino as the generator and control, and then external ones for stepping up the voltage. See how clean it can be made with MOS/FET, Opto-Isolators, and control it all, changing the pulse, Amplitude, frequency, duty cycle, etc. I saw some code here a while back for Pulse Width Modulation to do some of this, too.

It's 9 ramp-type pulses, stepped up ever slightly on each pulse incrementally on each - (divided by 3 parts equally???)

I like the raw approach here. it's fixed frequency, but interesting ideas. This circuit generates Square wave, triangle wave（2 types) and sine wave:

The last signal here looks rather interesting.
http://iteadstudio.com/application-note/...otoshield/

they have a kit here,:
http://iteadstudio.com/store/index.php?m...cts_id=186

---

Good Staircase waveform like what we need:
http://www.kerrywong.com/2011/02/26/arbi...h-arduino/

Very clean sinewaves.
http://interface.khm.de/index.php/lab/ex...generator/

I wonder if these wave forms can be written to an analog pin...

Maybe.. have to see and set the PinMode and AnalogWrite to it.

[BAM5]

The waveforms cannot be written by the arduino. If you set a pinmode to analog, all it does is use PWM to emulate analog output. There's actually no analogness to the arduino at all unless you do something like hook it up to a component or build a circuit that takes digital signals and makes an analog output.

Floaty, it would appear we're in the same... boaty I have been programming since I was 15 and have just recently gotten into microcontrollers and electrical engineering. I like physics and chemistry and electronics and have read up a lot on each before I started trying this. Hopefully broad knowledge I contain will allow me to replicate Stan's circuit, and hopefully even improve it

But first thing's first. Gotta replicate it.

[Jeff Nading]

(06-07-2012 03:00 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  The waveforms cannot be written by the arduino. If you set a pinmode to analog, all it does is use PWM to emulate analog output. There's actually no analogness to the arduino at all unless you do something like hook it up to a component or build a circuit that takes digital signals and makes an analog output.

Floaty, it would appear we're in the same... boaty I have been programming since I was 15 and have just recently gotten into microcontrollers and electrical engineering. I like physics and chemistry and electronics and have read up a lot on each before I started trying this. Hopefully broad knowledge I contain will allow me to replicate Stan's circuit, and hopefully even improve it

But first thing's first. Gotta replicate it.

Hi Bam5, I think there is a shield for the Arduino that will change digital to analog.

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-06-2012 05:47 PM)nbq201 Wrote:  Very clean sinewaves.
http://interface.khm.de/index.php/lab/ex...generator/

I think that is the best (easiest and cheapest) solution. One could use tone or PWM to get a wave-form.

(06-07-2012 03:00 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  The waveforms cannot be written by the arduino. If you set a pinmode to analog, all it does is use PWM to emulate analog output. There's actually no analogness to the arduino at all unless you do something like hook it up to a component or build a circuit that takes digital signals and makes an analog output.

Floaty, it would appear we're in the same... boaty I have been programming since I was 15 and have just recently gotten into microcontrollers and electrical engineering. I like physics and chemistry and electronics and have read up a lot on each before I started trying this. Hopefully broad knowledge I contain will allow me to replicate Stan's circuit, and hopefully even improve it

But first thing's first. Gotta replicate it.

I noticed that analog out is probably not possible after replying.

I started college in the 10th grade - dual enrollment. Learned a few languages since then.

Here's an idea I had: integrate a solid state Bedini circuit into Stan's electrolysis-plasma system with the Arduino as the pulse/wave-form controller/generator.

[nbq201]

Here's an idea.. Take a half-sine wave (half rectified) with the 9 pulses or so, then a sawtooth of 1 pulse for the duration. Using Amplitude Modulation, you should be able to modulate the sine-wave using the sawtooth as the carrier wave and produce and output which is similar. Here is a rough sketch.... and some other ways

Yes I think a DAC/DDS is in order unless coupling with a 555 and Op-Amps. to generate the signal. Like the DAC better.

I like this one the best. It will generate Sine, Pulse, Triangle waves.
http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-components...oduct.html

DigiKey already has an Eval board with it mounted:
http://parts.digikey.co.uk/1/1/387975-bo...33ebz.html

Here's the full selection of Direct Digital Synthesis/DAC from Analog Devices:
http://www.analog.com/en/rfif-components...index.html

AD9850 DDS Signal Generator (lots of code/support for this one)
http://alhin.de/arduino/index.php?n=7


R2R Ladder DAC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgBWcE-k-qs

Ramp Signal using R2R Ladder DAC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nKuxFL5E...re=related

16bit AD420 DAC
http://www.shaduzlabs.com/article-12.html

possble to use MPC4921 DAC chip also

[FloatyBoaty]

(06-07-2012 04:03 PM)nbq201 Wrote:  Here's an idea.. Take a half-sine wave (half rectified) with the 9 pulses or so, then a sawtooth of 1 pulse for the duration. Using Amplitude Modulation, you should be able to modulate the sine-wave using the sawtooth as the carrier wave and produce and output which is similar. Here is a rough sketch.... and some other ways

AD9850 DDS Signal Generator (lots of code/support for this one)
http://alhin.de/arduino/index.php?n=7


R2R Ladder DAC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgBWcE-k-qs

Ramp Signal using R2R Ladder DAC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nKuxFL5E...re=related

16bit AD420 DAC
http://www.shaduzlabs.com/article-12.html

possble to use MPC4921 DAC chip also

Coolness.

[Faisca]

(06-05-2012 07:04 AM)BAM5 Wrote:  Alright, so I have a bunch of spare time now a days so I am pretty motivated to build Stan's Circuit and start experimenting. I've already built my test cell and have done a little brute force electrolysis with it. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to replicate Stan's cell as quickly as possible. I took apart an old florescent ballast for the transformer, but can't get any arc off of it at all with a unipolar square wave signal, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to take it apart and change the ratio of the coil to get a higher output voltage. To take care of the tricky part I'm going to program my Arduino Uno to send out a PWM wave that I'll modify directly through programming and not use the built in PWM function of Arduino. This way I'll be able to control the duty cycle length and the pulse width. I'll use serial communication through the console to change the signal on the fly to experiment with the frequency. Eventually I'll build a scanning function to detect the resonant frequency. I'll attach the signal to a MOSFET and power it through my DC power supply at 12 V to the transformer.

What do you folks think? There are some pretty experienced people in here and I'd like to get some wisdom so I can take care of any problems before I run into them.

If this works I hope to possibly develop an Arduino shield for Stan's cell, this way the difficult electronics is taken care of and people can build and replicate Stan's circuit quickly and easily since the electronics are what most people struggle with.

Please let me know what you think!

-Brian

I think many of us have this common idea: "We can and we will do better than the S.Meyer"
I myself have made ​​a code for, uC-pic, with fet driver, transformer, inductor and capacitor (LC series). Feed-back picked up on the capacitor. The basis of the algorithm is always provide dphi 90 ° to the capacitor (into the tank LC). Works perfect, no need to sweep, even with changes from "L" or "C" in a range from 200Hz to 20kHz (I used a 20MHz clock).
But we have to solve a mystery ... as the resonant cavity is not going to short circuit? This is the secret hole.

The water in the two electrodes, will always be a short circuit.
There is still a part of history, we have not seen yet.

What happened to the original Don found?
Did it work?
and the resonant cavities were insulated?

[BAM5]

(06-08-2012 03:58 PM)Faisca Wrote:  I think many of us have this common idea: "We can and we will do better than the S.Meyer"
I myself have made ​​a code for, uC-pic, with fet driver, transformer, inductor and capacitor (LC series). Feed-back picked up on the capacitor. The basis of the algorithm is always provide dphi 90 ° to the capacitor (into the tank LC). Works perfect, no need to sweep, even with changes from "L" or "C" in a range from 200Hz to 20kHz (I used a 20MHz clock).
But we have to solve a mystery ... as the resonant cavity is not going to short circuit? This is the secret hole.

The water in the two electrodes, will always be a short circuit.
There is still a part of history, we have not seen yet.

What happened to the original Don found?
Did it work?
and the resonant cavities were insulated?

I don't know if we can do better, but I'm hoping that we do. Even if we just replicate his 1700% efficency I'd be ecstatic, because that means that we got more power out than we put in. I'm not sure what you're saying when you say that you pick up feed back on the capacitor and the basis of the algorithm is always provide dphi 90 degrees to the capacitor.

As for the cavity short circuiting, It won't. At least not completely. Even with just my tap water it has a fairly large resistance, in between 500 and 1500 kohms. so a charge will build up between the two plates of the water capacitor. I've also heard that the cell has to be conditioned. That there's a powdery white looking substance that forms on the two interacting surfaces. I believe that this will build up the resistance within the exciter array. That is if what I've heard around is true. If not it's just the resistivity of the water that allows for it to build up charge and thus an electric field.

What do you mean the original Don?