Step by step VIC build

[phil]

note to reader:

you can find the most up to date measurements of stan's VIC and our data/research here on this post on this thread.: http://open-source-energy.org/forum/show...07#pid5507

thanks!! ~Russ

off to the original post:

Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

[firepinto]

(11-09-2011 01:14 PM)phil Wrote:  Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it. The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure. It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots. So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.

Nate

[Oneminde]

       

(11-09-2011 04:21 PM)firepinto Wrote:  

(11-09-2011 01:14 PM)phil Wrote:  Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it. The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure. It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots. So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.

Nate

Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)

[~Russ/Rwg42985]

(11-09-2011 04:21 PM)firepinto Wrote:  

(11-09-2011 01:14 PM)phil Wrote:  Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it. The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure. It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots. So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.

Nate

phill, it really depends on your cell and sizes and a bunch of stuff. i would read this thread: http://open-source-energy.org/forum/show...hp?tid=119 but even then we don't have it down to a fine line so a lot of testing will need to be done!

hope it helps!

~Russ

[firepinto]

Quote:Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)

It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too. I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet. I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011. Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?

Nate

[Oneminde]

(11-10-2011 10:40 AM)firepinto Wrote:  

Quote:Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)

It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too. I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet. I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011. Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?

Nate

I've attached the size for the core (original). In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.

Regarding the gap in the bobbins, this added measurement will answer that question

[~Russ/Rwg42985]

(11-10-2011 11:20 AM)Oneminde Wrote:  

(11-10-2011 10:40 AM)firepinto Wrote:  

Quote:Hello Firepinto.
Are able to print me the VIC bobbins? (see image)

It may be possible to print that style of bobbins too. I don't have any 3D drawings of that style as of yet. I plan on trying more styles in the future, but my spare time is very limited for the rest of 2011. Are the dimensions in the first picture including the iron core?

Nate

I've attached the size for the core (original). In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be. So for now, you can drop testing an iron core. Here is a picture taken from the replicated core.

Regarding the gap in the bobbins, this added measurement will answer that question

Oneminde,

could you please post your data test results here:
http://open-source-energy.org/forum/show...hp?tid=119

im interesting in your test data as we all are trying to collaborate VIC data there on that thread.

also, did you cut the cores out of a solid sheet? and if so where did yo u get the ferrite sheet?

please reply via the thread VIC.

~Russ

[haxar]

(11-10-2011 11:20 AM)Oneminde Wrote:  In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be.

Has a core made out of magnetite/black sand/Fe3O4 been tried and tested yet? I may reckon it has a much higher permeability than the ferrite and maybe metglas.

[Oneminde]

(11-10-2011 01:58 PM)haxar Wrote:  

(11-10-2011 11:20 AM)Oneminde Wrote:  In remarks to what you wrote "iron core" this has already been tested and it do not work. We know that the permeability is between 1550-1600. We started with a Ferrite core (hard) that got roughly 2000 in perm, we then did a test and re calculated the data and found that the perm is roughly 300-400 higher then what it should be.

Has a core made out of magnetite/black sand/Fe3O4 been tried and tested yet? I may reckon it has a much higher permeability than the ferrite and maybe metglas.

That is funny, how on earth did you "know" that this is soon happening?? ... LOL - so the answer is, no not yet... but it will happen.
It was just a few day's ago that I remember the Muller Cores and revisited the coils he made from a Magnetite (350 mesh) and epoxy blend (70/30 blend) - this is exactly what will be tested.

Regards.

[phil]

(11-09-2011 04:21 PM)firepinto Wrote:  

(11-09-2011 01:14 PM)phil Wrote:  Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it. The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure. It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots. So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.

Nate

I might have to take you up on that, thanks.

Do i have to get a certain size magnetic core for it to fit, or do i get a core and give you the sizes?

[firepinto]

(11-10-2011 05:47 PM)phil Wrote:  

(11-09-2011 04:21 PM)firepinto Wrote:  

(11-09-2011 01:14 PM)phil Wrote:  Hello everyone, I've built a set of cells and im now at the stage where im about to start with the coil. Im going to post the progress here, step by step of it all going together. But im going to need help from the electronics/coil gurus here with the specifics of it. My first question is what core and where do i get one?

If you decide to go with the cylinder style coil I can print you a set of bobbins for it. The only catch is I haven't finished a new design for support structure. It would be printed with the built in support structure that the printer software generates, which is difficult to remove from the coil slots. So if you feel up to removing supports from the slots, I can send you one for the super low price of $0.00.

Don't know what kind of iron cores are available for it though.

Nate

I might have to take you up on that, thanks.

Do i have to get a certain size magnetic core for it to fit, or do i get a core and give you the sizes?

Right now the design is a complete replica of the design that Dynodon detailed on the waterfuelcell.org forums. Russ said that it is very close to the original Stan bobbins, correct? The core is designed as a 3/4 inch or 19 millimeter square core. For myself, my Sketchup skills are still very new. It would be easier for me to start a new design from the ground up if any different dimensions are needed. I probably won't have time to design a new set till around the 1st of the year. I will be printing a few bobbins of the original design this weekend.

Nate

[firepinto]

I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins. Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.
           

I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper), cutting out the ruler and using it. Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching. Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate

[~Russ/Rwg42985]

(11-14-2011 08:24 PM)firepinto Wrote:  I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins. Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.


I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper), cutting out the ruler and using it. Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching. Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate

Nate the hand drawing on the photo copied pad of paper is corect. It's in the files you download... ~Russ

[firepinto]

(11-14-2011 08:42 PM)Rwg42985 Wrote:  

(11-14-2011 08:24 PM)firepinto Wrote:  I'm finding some problems with dimensions for the 'card style' VIC bobbins. Between the 3 pictures below, I can't find any measurement that they can seem to agree on.


I've went as far as printing the disassembled VIC coil (on paper), cutting out the ruler and using it. Not accurate, but its enough to realize something isn't matching. Any ideas on what measurements are correct?

Nate

Nate the hand drawing on the photo copied pad of paper is corect. It's in the files you download... ~Russ

Thanks Russ, lol I completely missed that one! Looks pretty close to what I was measuring with my fancy ruler. I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls. My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8", the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?

Nate

[haxar]

(11-14-2011 09:26 PM)firepinto Wrote:  I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls. My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8", the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?

I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.

---

Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.

[firepinto]

(11-15-2011 12:42 AM)haxar Wrote:  

(11-14-2011 09:26 PM)firepinto Wrote:  I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls. My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8", the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?

I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.

---

Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.

Excellent, I was planning on a design in halves too. I may try to print this tonight. I just need to figure out how to convert it to millimeters.

Nate

[~Russ/Rwg42985]

Quote:Also for the record, Dynodon stated the gauge and decimal representation of the magnet wire used was 29 AWG and 0.0155 inches.

The actual diameter of 29 AWG wire is 0.0113 inches according to this source:
http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

In the sketch notebook, it notes all the wires are 0.0115 inches in diameter which is approximately 29 AWG.

0.0155 and not 0.0115 inches should be a typo.

I have done extensive research and i have found out that stan may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...

this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...

thoughts?

~Russ

[haxar]

(11-15-2011 08:20 PM)Rwg42985 Wrote:  I have done extensive research and i have found out that stan may have been using 4 layer coating on the wire witch brings the measurements up to where there suppose to be...

this makes sense with the use that there may be high voltage in the wire. extra insulation...

thoughts?

~Russ

Yes, Stan may have used 30 AWG magnet wire with heavy double or quadruple insulation to make it approximately 29 AWG. The type of insulation in question could be found in the technical brief at the beginning of page 7-5 of memo 426:

Quote:both magnet wire sizes (622/623) uses solderable Nysol (Polyurethane Nylon Jacket) insulation enamel coating as a electrical shield-material ...

One supplier who carries magnet wire with Polyurethane-Nylon insulation could be found here:
http://www.planetengineers.com/default.a...%2C+Magnet
30 AWG Heavy Poly Nylon (two coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=1458
30 AWG Quadruple Poly Nylon (four coats):
http://www.planetengineers.com/product.asp?pid=2168

30 AWG with a heavy build would have a maximum diameter of 0.0121 inches according to this document:
http://www.nema.org/stds/complimentary-d...0final.pdf

[phil]

In the wire size chart it gives the bare diameter, I think that's the diameter of the conductor only
If someone had measured the thickness of the wire that measurement will include the insulation

[firepinto]

(11-15-2011 12:42 AM)haxar Wrote:  

(11-14-2011 09:26 PM)firepinto Wrote:  I can't make out the number for the length of the bobbin walls. My fancy ruler says its about 1 5/8", the sketch looks like says 1.1/2" to me?

I'm using decimal measurements in Sketchup and modified the dimensions a bit using the total length of the 6-in-1 coil bobbin rounded to tenths to be:

.3 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .4 + .1 + 1.3 + .1 + .3 = 4"

Both bobbins of the 6-in-1 are in four pieces; see the attachments including the zipped Sketchup sketch.

Hey Haxar,
I gave your sketch a whirl on the RepRap. It's looking very promising. I converted the Sketchup file to millimeters and exported it to .STL format attached below. I recommend printing with the support set to 'everywhere'. I tried it with no support and had sagging. There are a few tweaks Id like to try in Skeinforge to fill some gaps, but otherwise it works great. Video is compiling now, upload will start tomorrow.

Nate

  6in1vic_mm.zip (Size: 33.61 KB / Downloads: 110)