new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha

evostars

New L3 coil rolled from 16.82m 0.4mm2 speaker wire
« Reply #125,  »
Already made a new L3 coil.
diameter is 21 cm

the l2 coil made of 0.75mm2 has a diameter of 19cm

very happy with this result.

l2 has 25 windings
l3 has now 45 windings.

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Matt Watts

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #126,  »
Quote from evostars on October 3rd, 04:06 AM
If anybody sees a mistake, please correct me!
Phi hole?

Not important?

evostars

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #127,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on October 3rd, 07:36 AM
Phi hole?

Not important?
Might be important, but have no option to perfect it, got to work with what I have right now
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #128,  »
Just measured the inductance with my old crappy cheap chinese LCR meter.
L3 is now 0.83mH when coupled to L2
L2 is 0.36mH when coupled to L3

L1 is now outside the stack.

I first tuned L2 without anything on L3. C4 was 7nF and the discharge spike in L2 occurred at 101 kHz
Then I added 10nF (c6) to L3, C4 the same. the frequency jumped to much higher, and L3 was low in voltage.
played around some more.

Then I decided to increase C4 to 22nF; C6(l3) was still 10nF this resulted in a discahrge frequency of 130kHz.
The good thing now is, that L3 has a much larger voltage, around 400Vpp

then played some more.... the sad thing is, I cant read out the current... really need a current probe...
no reason to measure the current now, as L1 is not connected in the stack. but when the stack is complete, how do I measure for maximum current???
 
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #129,  »Last edited
pretty special, 55W 230V halogen light starts to light up.

L1 is removed from the stack, onl;y L2 and L3 are stacked (coupled) non reversed.

C4=54nF C6 (over L3) is 10nF
Without the lamp (load) over L3, F=114.20  0.72A  28.4Vdc (lowered for C5, it got hot from to high voltage). L3 shows 550Vpp (very high)  this is shown in NEWFILE184
700V discharge in L2!!!
L3= 570Vpp
l2 = 170Vpp without discharge, only sine


newfile 185 is the same setup, but with the lamp connected parallel over L3. 0.74A 28.4Vdc F=109.2kHz
L3=325Vpp (rather high!!!! with a load!!)
Rather remarkable, because normaly with resonance, the lamp wont burn at all, and the sine over L3 would be a flat line.

Must be some current produced here.

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Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #130,  »
increasimg L3 with 10nF to 20Nf only lowered the voltage in L3, but Nelson mentioned 1nF could make a big difference, so will need to do it again

and also increase C4 more so the frequency becomes even lower.

maybe remove all from l3, and see where L2 is discharging at. with c4

also noticed more discharges in one period could that be the trumpet shape?

probably will buy a current probe...
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #131,  »
I have a small sewimgmachine spool with wire woumd on it.
could I use this as a current sensor? put it around L3 (resonant) wire, and probe it, to see the current produced?

would need to be the right amount of inductance, not to much or it will dampen the resonance
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #132,  »
test ideas:
l2 l3 coupled but counter wound, does  it still light the lamp? the phase will now lign up, in phase. the voltage is positive with the negative discharges.

other test, instead if current probe, try small coil around l3 resonant wire as probe.

try tuning c6/l3 ti get the max output

after these tests proceed to coupling l1 to l2 and l3
improvised current sensor
« Reply #133,  »Last edited
Did some tests witht the last setup to see if I could read the current.
used a 0,17mH (crappy measured) spool and but it around L3's resonant wire lead to the 55W lamp that was lid.
I put a 1K resistor over the coil to close the circuit, and measured that with the blue scope probe, 1:1

186 no current probe used, as reference, blue is L2 (between l2 and c4) 0.56A 32.3Vdc F=99.84kHz lamp is on.

187 with current probe, 0.5A 32.3V  Probed 1:1 over the 1K resistor of the spool.

The multiple discharges in L2 (186) blue, corronspond with the riples seen in 187, blue lead (L3 current).
The sine wave of the blue lead of 187 is probably due to the rf, and does not represent the current. but those riplles do.

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Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #134,  »
just looked at newfile184 again. That's one big spike! -700V in L2 giving 550V in L3
I should tune L3 with C6 to get the max current.
now C6= 10nF. probably slowly increase with 1nF steps, and keep tuning, and see if I can get it to the right frequency again.

Because with the resistive load on L3 the frequency jumps up, and the voltage goes down....

Previously this didn't work, but... maybe it also needs an increase in C4....
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #135,  »
I can remove the 1k over the current sensor spool, as the scope probe is 1 M Ohm. should work...

just have to keep it away from the resonant coil, or it will pick up the sine. So keep the resistive load far away and probe it there

Radiant Power, the Idea explained, how it should work.
« Reply #136,  »
Nelsons latest circuit explained:
3 stacked bifilar pancake coils. L1 L2 L3
L1 is pulsed and produces a inductive spike (back EMF) when the pulse turns off.
This energy is pumped into L2 that becomes series resonant by it.

L2 in interaction with L3 produces a disruptive discharge right before the pulse turns on again. This is a radiant energy event, that is until now unexplained, but happening.

The disruptive discharge of L2, produces a current in L3, when the mass of L2 and L3 is equal , and the right frequency is dialed in.

L2 is series resonant with C4, reducing impedance to the resistance of the wire of the coil. lowering current.

L3 is parallel resonant with C6, increasing impedance when resonant, and increasing the current.

the resonant voltage (sine wave) of L3 is combined, with the current induced in L3 by the disruptive discharge of L2. Power is created by combining  voltage and current. So when these to are in phase, the lamp burns.

L3 is equal mass, to L2, but has more turns, this results in higher inductance, and capacitance, and therefor it can store more energy in its resonant fields. This results in a higher voltage. More voltage, more power.

L1 and L3 are also coupled, so the magnetic field of L1 and L3 are interacting. Not sure on this part, but it looks like L3 is assisting L1, and therefor the current draw of L1 drops, while still producing large back emf/inductive spikes.

Free energy is the wrong term. energy is abundant available, its everywhere, but its only potential... no power.
Power, is what drives our lamps, motors, etc...  So its better to talk about free Power.
It is introduced, by combining the radiant current, with Voltage,
So maybe we should call it,

RADIANT POWER

The tricky part is finding the right frequency, where L3 produces the most current, from the disruptive discharges of L2.
To do so we need a pure resistive load over L3, without a tuning capacitor over L3.
Tuning C4/L2 to the right frequency will reveal that frequency.

Once the freuqnecy it is known, L3 should be tuned to that frequency by adding a parallel capacitor (C6).
The maximum voltage produced by the capacitor at that frequency will give power to the current.

But L2 and L3 are coupled, not only inductive but also capacitive.
So changing C6 also changes C4/L2 
L2 is also coupled to L1... making things even more difficult to understand...
So from here on its trial and error.
WARNING: Tuning L3 is dangerous!!!
« Reply #137,  »
L3 with C6 can be tuned to max voltage rise.
the disruptive discharges of L2 will induce current in L3
When L3 has no Load to dissipate the current it, the induced current, will stay in the field of the resonant coil.
I have seen the phase is not changed by this, so this is a danger, as the voltage and current are in phase.
Potentially deadly...
So when tuning, its best to keep a resistive load attached, and be very carefull.

You won't get a RF burn, thats nasty enough, but you'll get a kick that could kill you.
So be warned and be carefull.

Once the frequency of L3 is dialed in, and gives the max current (without C6) you know what to expect. if the current is 1 amp. and you have a voltage of 550V... that produces 550W

Resistive load on L3 changes the resonant frequency
« Reply #138,  »
If L3 is resonant, the frequency is dependent of the inductance, and the capacitance.


By introducing a resistive load to L3, part of the voltage is transformed into heat, and therefor the energy stored in the dielectric field becomes less,

 this translates into reduced capacitance.

 Reduced capacitance raises the resonant the frequency of L3.

L3 is again coupled inductive and capacitive to L2 so that resonant frequency will also change.

I wonder how this would work with a charging capacitor bank (from L3), as the impedance of the capacitors change when they charge...
Well we'll see... great insights for now, but first... current probe and find the frequency for L3. I guess its best when I use the same load, so I will use the lamp
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #139,  »Last edited
tried the lamp as resistive load on L3.
dc resistance is around 93 ohm.
when tuning L2 doesn't become resonant due to the damping of the coupled L3.

current probe shows current and the light even glows (from L1 coupling i guess  EDIT, no! L1 is not coupled! ). But if I remember correct, a light bulb changes resistance when it becomes hot, and this could result in a changed frequency... much to complicated...

I need a pure resistive load, so I'll get the 8.2 or 4.1 ohm resistor again and tune with that.
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #140,  »Last edited
did some readings with the 4.1 ohm resistive load on L3, no L6 parallel cap over L3
L1 decoupled, only L2 and L3 coupled.
I used 24Vdc on all measurements,
C1 650uF C2 open, C3 1.1uF C4 varies C5 44uF

yellow trace is 10:1 probed between L2 and C4
blue trace, is 1:1 probed over the current probe coil at the 4,2 resistor over L3. L3 is grounded.

newfile190  C4=54nF   F=75 kHz
newfile191  C4=44nF   F=80  kHz
newfile192  C4=22nF   F=102 kHz
newfile193  C4=10nF   F=144 kHz
newfile194  C4=5nF     F=197 kHz

If C4 is to big, the inductive spike doesn't disappear. from 100kHz up it is gone

Notice the big 2V erratic ringing when F=197kHz
I will need to try to tune in to that frequency? Or Am I doing it wrong... ???  Why does it ring?
the current probe coil is 0.17mH (cant measure resistance right now)

Is the current coil ringing due to its own resonance? then I should add a resistor to dampen it... this would be in parallel, but also in parallel with the probe... Or is this the current, and should I just continue. looking for the biggest spikes.
The resistors do become warm

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Matt Watts

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #141,  »
Quote from evostars on October 8th, 01:43 AM
Power is created by combining  voltage and current. So when these to are in phase, the lamp burns.
I've been saying that for at least a couple of years.

There's more to it though...

The counter EMF that flows through the load ends up back at the source, killing the dipole, killing the source.

Splendid.  So how do we get the counter EMF flowing in the same direction as the source?

That's where the magic is.  Wave & anti-wave.  How do we tell which one is which?

I'm not certain we can.  My feeling is that we have to know which one is which intuitively.  Only then can we do the right thing, at the right time and in the right place.  I suspect Nelson has this figured out and I'm sure that "first time" was just as difficult for him as it will be for the rest of us.  The second time will be much easier.

evostars

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #142,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on October 8th, 12:10 PM
I've been saying that for at least a couple of years.

There's more to it though...

The counter EMF that flows through the load ends up back at the source, killing the dipole, killing the source.

Splendid.  So how do we get the counter EMF flowing in the same direction as the source?

That's where the magic is.  Wave & anti-wave.  How do we tell which one is which?

I'm not certain we can.  My feeling is that we have to know which one is which intuitively.  Only then can we do the right thing, at the right time and in the right place.  I suspect Nelson has this figured out and I'm sure that "first time" was just as difficult for him as it will be for the rest of us.  The second time will be much easier.
Once its working we kniw what to look for. but i doubt if we will understand it. That disruptive discharge before the mosfet turns on is still a riddle to me, but its there and it diea something
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #143,  »
did some more tests will post it later. seems the current only rises a bit, in the current sense coil, but the current on the power supply goes down in lager step, and then goes up again.
will look at that as indicator.
Will need smaller caps. 100pF that can hold 520V... to tune into the excact frequency, and make a curve
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #144,  »
I did a lot of tests witht the current probe coil, with 1k over it.
L1 coupled and un coupled. L2 and L3 always coupled. always tuning for a single disruptive discharge in L2 without the inductive spike. The probe doesnt detect a decent rise or decline in frequency.
Below a certain frequency, tuned by increasing C4, the inductive spike cant be tuned away any more.

I then tried removing C3 (1.1uF) to see if it made a difference. No difference at all!!!

So I guess, I'm missing something here. C2 and C3 must have their function, as do those diodes.
I must say I'm becoming tired of this circuit. It again is a big riddle by Nelson. And I hope he will give some more guidance. He hasn't responded anymore, so he must be busy or something else...

I keep thinking there must be a pumping action bewteen L1 and L2, somehow that discharge, isnt the only thing going on.
Maybe It would be good to follow the logic, and see when those diodes would actually open up.

C5 has a positive dc of 500V on the side of L2. the diodes open when its more negative than the negative supply.
The only way is by the disruptive negative discharge, or, the resonant sine of L2. the resonant sine, would open it at the smae time of the inductive spike, so that would make no sense.

The inductive spike could open the diodes up, but hmm... dont know about that.

Could also be, nelson doesnt trigger the mosfet with 50% duty cycle pulses. but shorter, more like a joulethief. His previous released circuit also was based on a joule thief.  So Maybe I need to remove the pulse transformer, and just straight add the pulse generator. but I dont like the idea of it getting the disruptive discahrges...

I Think I need to let this go for now, and maybe concentrate on the disruptive discahrge allone, and see if I can produce some current somehow.

One more thing... maybe I'm measuring wrong. Maybe the L3 coil should be open ended,  With a resistor in series to ground, and measure the voltage drop over it. As it isnt resonant... L3 would act like a plate capturing the radiant energy. It would be led to ground via the resistor producing current...
new email from Nelson Rocha
« Reply #145,  »
nelson:
Quote
You should make some measurements about the B field in between coil L2 and L3 like i did and show in some videos with the compass.
The B field should not manifest in a compass needle like i show in other video .

 did you already measure input versus output in L3 ? That is important for sure .Why you just try measure the voltage over the halogen bulb in series with 1 ohm power precision resistor. You will able to measure the circuit including the variation of the resistance of the halogen bulb .Don't use the the 4.1 ohm resistor in parallel in L3 ; if is high voltage the output of L3 you should use a higher value resistor to measure the current by the voltage drop in closed circuit.  Otherwize maybe you buy a good current probe. My old Antek current probe was nice . It could  be trick measure such circuits . look how many amps a  nice hand meter measure under equivalent coil L2 in this video . https://youtu.be/tCYeErWACwA?t=43
Of course the tank current is reactive but to me seems real.

I do not have more than one disruptive discharge in L2 per period,  it is just one powerful discharge .
All the circuit should work smoothie without big spikes . To me seems your gate mosfet have low output signal and the mosfet is not switch full open cause some ringing . Maybe could be the reason to you have any high consume in idle mode . Normally it should some 90 milliamps when input is 12v or 60 when input is 30v  . 



You have the base of my oscillator , and i know that the process of tuning is hard , myself take lot of time until able to tune with less difficulty .
This oscillator circuit is very versatile and could use different type of coil in L1 indeed a pancake coil . The important is L2 and L3 be Pancake bifilar coil. Like i told you in other emails , after you able to put working your circuit , you could modify them and try other approaches . The circuit could be used to many applications .
So A single discharge per period. Current measurement, via a 1 ohm resistor to ground (done that before with tube amps) and check if the mosfet is switching properly.
The currents do deviate, because my mosfet has a higher internal resistance of 1 Ohm. I think... But I also noticed a differnce in having L1 in the stack or not. When it is outside the stack the current is bigger, So there is lower currnt draw when its in the stack. Isnt that nice! Should post all the tests I did, in a nice tab...
HEy 3d print is done...

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #146,  »
bigger resistor of L3 could male sense as it all works differently. more current for more resistance.

very curious if the mosfet gate to source voltage is good enough for proper switching. if not I might skip the pulse transformer.

Maybe c3 is doing  it's job, when the gate is pulsed without a pulse transformer.

Since I now have a 3dprinter I am amble to make a coil holder. maybe even one that can hold oil, but thats for the future. First need to get it working
Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #147,  »
I made a 24,7 Ohm power resistor by hooking op 3x 8.2Ohm in series.
One resistor is 5W rated, so will become hot faster. the other two are 50W rated.

When the mosfets that nelson uses are deliverd, I might build another circuit, without the pulse transformer.
I suspect C3 acts as a stable voltage for the gate source to switch the mosfet...

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #148,  »Last edited
I might suggest you get a two or three watt isolated DC to DC converter with 15 volt output.  Use this as your MOSFET drive source.  Try to mimic this setup best you can:
http://open-source-energy.org/?topic=1851.msg48891#msg48891

You can isolate from the signal source using a chip like the RECOM board, or use an optical isolator as I did with my Universal Switch.  The whole trick is to isolate both signal and power from the rest of the circuit.  Make sure you have a powerful gate driver too.  That way the MOSFET truly functions like an extremely high-speed mechanical switch.

Works like a charm.

Once you get the switching right, you can focus solely on Nelson's circuit and not have to worry about whether the MOSFET is turning on & off correctly.

And BTW,
Quote from evostars on October 11th, 03:35 AM
Since I now have a 3dprinter I am amble to make a coil holder.
What kind of printer did you get?

Lynx

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #149,  »
Quote from evostars on October 12th, 08:10 AM
I made a 24,7 Ohm power resistor by hooking op 3x 8.2Ohm in series.
One resistor is 5W rated, so will become hot faster. the other two are 50W rated.

When the mosfets that nelson uses are deliverd, I might build another circuit, without the pulse transformer.
I suspect C3 acts as a stable voltage for the gate source to switch the mosfet...
Submerge them in, say sunflower or rapeseed oil, helps keeping them cooler. And then you could of course also submerge the resistor/oil bowl in water.
If by using 12 8.2 ohm resistors you could, by making 2 rows of 6 resistors in each row and then connect the rows in parallel, end up with 24.7 ohms aswell.
I use oil cooling whenever I need to cool down that which risks getting too hot, oil doesn't conduct current. It will however add a capacitive element of sort to the circuit at hand, which will, depending on what kind of current there is running through the whatever, influence the electric properties in that part of the circuit accordingly.