new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha

evostars

current measurement in L3
« Reply #100,  »Last edited
I am not happy with the probe reading of the resistors of L3.

I will do another reading, but this time use a avramenko plug, to create 2 dc paths. and measure the current in one path with a dc meter. the value will be wrong, but it will give an indication of the maximum current, and most important, at which frequency of L2 this occurs.

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #101,  »
next up,

check phase of resonance between l2 and l3, without L1

and l1 and L3  without L2

cant remember it, want to be sure.
It should all add up. If the phase is wrong it could be a reason for not being  tunable.

I remember having tuning problems before, with the series parallel resonance tests. but cant rembember what caused it and how  fixed it...

that's a good  reason to have a work bench...
L3 needs to be physically reversed, tested phases
« Reply #102,  »
Tested Phases of the resonant coils, with the interacting coils.

newfile165: L2 and L3 coupled. not reversed, out of phase
newfile166: reversed L3: in phase

newfile167: L1 and L3 coupled, north facing L3, L3=reversed, L1 pulse on=V+ max on L3 in phase

newfile170: L1 L2 and L3 coupled. L3 reversed. yellow is L2.  Pos max L2 (and discahrge) @ L1 pulse on in phase

newfile171: same, but L3 probed, pos max @ L1 pulse on in phase

Conclusion L3 needs to be reverse. DO NOT reverse the wires to change polarity. L3 needs to be counterwound to LL1 and L2, (outside grounded, inside resonant)

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #103,  »
Interesting. tested current on the negative diode, and read 0.00mA dc and 0,20mA
then noticed the resistor measured isn't gettng hot, but the other resistor, with the positve diode, does get hot.

So the current is positve. Will rearrange, and measure current .

I'm using 2x 8.2 ohm resistors

 current.png - 8.74 kB, 475x403, viewed 0 times.

current measurement in L3, fail
« Reply #104,  »
moved mA ac current meter, to the other (positive diode). measured 0.5mA

But

Now the other resistor (at negative diode) gets hot!

What kind of magic is this?
I guess I need a different amp meter...

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #105,  »
I'll just remove the diodes, and use 1 resistor 1 meter... in series. see how that works. that resistor really is getting hot, so there is a current flowing
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #106,  »
Nope, doesnt work, not tune able.
somehow meter seems to block currents
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #107,  »
This is what Nelson emailed on 13 september:
Quote
To be more easy  tune the circuit , simple let L3 without any cap and with a resistive load connected in L3 tune the freq until reach max output current in the load connected in L3 .
Tune the freq, is done by C4, creating the series resonance in L2, with the disruptive discharge.

So I guess I need a current meter that works. one that works with heat
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #108,  »
since the resistor is getting hot, I might have the right value already for c4.

Can't remember tuning the circuit with L3 reversed.
better try that first
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #109,  »
tried tuning L3 both again, not tune able.  :roll:
need to analyse this further

L3 needs to be reversed. I'm sure.

but... why cant I reach the right frequency...

the resistor become hot, so the L2 frequency must be right at around 235kHz, c4=10nF

but maybe.... just maybe.... I also need to change C4 when I'm tuning L3 with C6....
as L2 and L3 are capacitivly coupled. changing c6 changes L2/c4

sooo... damnnnn....   frustrating.... need a brake from this./...

hope nelson will respond....

frrrrrrrustrated.....
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #110,  »
does make sense, if L2 and L3 are capacitive coupled,
changing C6(L3) would change L2 resonant frequency.

So I might need to add 1nF or more when I connect 10 nF as C6 to L3
.

also need to reconnect L3, as the resonant winding needs to face L2. since L3 is now reversed i need to reconnect it

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #111,  »
You're dialing it in evostars.  That current making the resistor hot is no joke.  Once you get the voltage there with it, it is game on.

evostars

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #112,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on September 29th, 12:17 PM
You're dialing it in evostars.  That current making the resistor hot is no joke.  Once you get the voltage there with it, it is game on.
Excactly! I cant measure the max current, but since the 8 ohm is getting hot (a 25W resistor) Im aiming for 235kHz. I already have reactified L3 and connected a 55W bulb, so If I keep tuning every thing will line up... I hope

I just played around again, trying to tune, and it starts making sense.
C6 over L3 is dropping both L3 and L2 res freq.
c4=13nF
C6=15nF
L2 is discharging at 213 kHz
L3 is resonant at271kHz
These have to line up at 235kHz where the max current was.
step by step increasing both seems to be the way to go.
but in previous times, as C6 increased it didnt drop to 235kHz. But I hope... not that L3 is reversed... It will.

But I'm running out of capacitors, to tune with. I'll have to order more 1nF or 2nF or both
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #113,  »
c6 bigger to lower L3 resonance to 235 kHz

and c4 smaller to raise the disruptive discharge to 235 kHz
 
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #114,  »
did some tests increasing both capacitors, to dail in 235kHz in L2 and L3 as resonant frequencies. Still L3 doesnt drop. big amounts of capacitance lower it only a bit, and the voltage rise drops drastically. I need voltage for power.
Wonder if L3 needs series resonance, or, something different is needed, like a circulating current in L2 (neal barbossa)

in this setup L3 is reversed, C3=1.1uF C2 is open, C1 is big C5 is big
                 discharge @             resonant@
C4(nF)        L2 kHz      c6(nF)     L3(kHz)
13                213           15             271
8                  265           15             320
8                  251           37             304 (lower voltage rise)
9                  236           37             289 (around 55V only)
9                  235           84             283
9                  233          284            279  (9V only, much to low)

so tuning this isnt possible. L3 stays having a much higher frequency then the aimed 235kHz. This also occured with L3 non reversed. So reversing L3 is not the solution.

parallel resonance in L3 would increase current on the output side, that would be good. Nelsons videos also show the output L3 tuned with a parallel capacitor. So something is going wrong here.

Maybe I need to try playing with C2 and C3 again, while havinf c4=9nF and c6=10nF.
I must admit...  Im lost here. Need to understand why L3 isnt tunable to 235kHz, why does it stay high?
Does it lose capacitance to the load? is the load to big? could remove the bridge diodes and dc caps, and just use a resistive (16.4 ohm) load, like Nelson said.
Or is it the ground @L3?
or or or
I dont know...
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #115,  »
I suspect there needs to be more going on between L1 and L2
, those 2 diodes, and c2 and c3 might be acting like a pump, pumping the negative indusctive spike into L2, and via series resonamce back into L1.

creating a current circulation between l1 and l2 where L3 can tap into
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #116,  »
maybe, check if I can tune L2 and L3 to 235kHz without L1 in the stack
No Radiation, was a measurement fault
« Reply #117,  »
After receiving several emails about the radiation detection possible being triggerd by EMP/ high voltage,
i did some more tests.

And indeed it seemed triggerd by the EMP. If the meter(tube) is placed an a radius of the coil,. where the voltage differnce goes from high to low, the device it triggerd.

but when the soeks meter is perpendicular with the windings, or at a right angel in the center (staning up away from the windings, there is no measurement.  The radiation should be detected in both ways, so.... I conclude its a mistake.

I now now how to place the meter, so it isnt tricked. If there is still some real radiation, it should alarm. but now for real
Nelson Rocha emailed new info
« Reply #118,  »
Nelson Rocha:
Quote
1- I will advice you to use a smaller L2 coil . I mean with a low ratio of turns and thicker wire in relation to L3.
2- about the frequency:
Most of the tests i did, i use frequencies around 80 at 100khz , but this frequencies rise until 500khz when have a load attacked to L3, when load is removed the freq lower again .
3- About the Radiation:
When i conducted my tests i could reach extreme high levels of radiation , much more higher than the values you mentioned , because the air around the coils could reach a level where the air around become ionized . https://youtu.be/gGdKqdpztuY?t=1
Take some minutes and play this video . I kow the circuit in the video is much complex :) but observe how the field behaves polarizing all the metals in the area of the coil including the water in the glass. It happens because in some way the air and surround air becomes ionized and i think is this ionization that create the radiation. This type of radiation could cross metals like aluminum steel , water glass etc.
I don't know exactly what type of radiation is ( alfa particles maybe ? ) but seems important we take care about that .
4- The resistor in L3 .:
I advice you in my last emails  to use a resistor in L3 exactly to you tune at max point of current measured in resistor after that , you should remove them of course , this type of circuit dont like resistors :(  only inductance and capacity otherwise you will have a source of friction on L3 when you don't have load make the idle current raise and we don't want that right ? when you tune at max current point you should put the capacitor in parallel in the coil to adjust the voltage output . :) YES it will regulate the voltage output, the capacitor in parallel with the coil .

I know that circuit is not easy to tune because myself take some months develop and study it until able to tune it fast and without any problems .
I have a American friend that find the same problem's that you have at moment during the tune of circuit . We take almost two years until we succeed,but I had to send him, a replica of the circuit he had to replicate  :) .

About the mosfet normally i use IRFP460 20A 500V Power MOSFET N-Channel Transistor TO-247.
He emailed before about L3 needing more windings than L2, but still having the same mass so a thin wire for L3 or a thick wire for L2.
I might take some other speaker wire I have, and measure the weight, without the pvc coating, so I could make an equal mass coil from it, with less windigns. OR... a l3 coil without center hole, from 10 m of the wire i used for l2, which should give more windings.
The goal is to have more windings in L3 than l2, but equal mass L2 and L3

tuning with the resistor for max current, then remove resistor, and tune without load with a parallel capacitor.
than attching a load, will increase the frequency.  So thats why I could not tune the circuit. I had a load attached.

That radiation, seems gamma to me, penetrating everything. only Lead would protect... better not waist to much time tuning, and keep the device off, and at a distance... damn dangerous. This also comfirst my radiation measurements where wrong, due to the HV EMP.

Mosfet he uses: IRFP460
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfp460a.pdf
gate capacitance around 3nF (dependend on voltage etc...)

going to order some of these. maybe even rebuild the circuit without pulse transformer.

I also recieved some information from J D stating a 10uF 200V cap charged to 200V  discharges better faster snapier than a 10uF 400V capacitor charged to 200V.

The energy is the same, but I guess it is about the density of tension build up between the plates of the capacitor. So picking the right kind of capacitor also plays a role I guess. Also looking at internal series resistance, to be kept low for fast charge and discharge.
I have 1nF 1000V wima caps and 10nF 600V wima caps. Might buy some 400 or 500 volt rating caps. cheaper also :)

Again, solid new Info to work with! Very happy with this and inspiring to continue



Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #119,  »Last edited
Great feedback from Nelson.   :clap2:

He can tune it quickly, so it's repeatable once you know what to look for, the steps and the order of those steps.

The  :nuke:  ...?

I'm not sure what the best approach is here.  Probably use common sense and don't expose yourself any more than you have to.  Maybe scale down the power and see if you can get it working at much lower power levels while noting all the tuning steps you took, then maybe follow those steps exactly in a larger unit.

The IRFP460 MOSFET is quite popular.  It will deliver substantial switching power and survive some pretty horrific mistakes.  Still good to guard it somewhat with GDTs or at least neon bulbs in a string.  You will still need a strong gate driver circuit though to get it to operate properly and not heat up.

Coil mass...  This is a concept I know Mr. Tesla explored also.  If Nelson says you need to follow it, you need to follow it.

I think you can fairly easily calculate the wire diameter volume per inch/cm and know exactly what length you need, then wind that length into a coil.  Pick one coil to be the reference and wind the new coil based off that reference.

Best news I've had all day evostars.  He's really holding your hand on this project.  I think Nelson wants someone to validate his work.  You can do it.  I have faith.


evostars

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #120,  »
Thanks Matt!
yes we will get there. also J D seems to hold some keys as he working with Nelson trying to tune a circuit and he got it working. He said L3 having a larger amounts of windings is vital.

Matt, could you change the topic title?
"oscillaror" should be" oscillator "

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #121,  »
Quote from evostars on October 1st, 01:11 AM
Matt, could you change the topic title?
"oscillaror" should be" oscillator "
I fixed it for all new replies, but the ones here are cast in stone pretty much.  Besides Russ likes words to be spelled all whacky, keeps the professionals away.  ;-)

~Russ

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #122,  »
Yeah... spellings is for the birds...


Hehe


Good stuff happening here, you can do it, you got this! Be safe and god speed.

Looking forwerd to a point where we know exactly what we need to do to get it tuned, and get it safe...

~Russ

evostars

Re: new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #123,  »
Quote from ~Russ on October 1st, 06:10 AM
Yeah... spellings is for the birds...


Hehe


Good stuff happening here, you can do it, you got this! Be safe and god speed.

Looking forwerd to a point where we know exactly what we need to do to get it tuned, and get it safe...

~Russ
Only one spelling error, come on you can do better Russ ;)

we'll get there, and then its... lift off!
Quote from Matt Watts on October 1st, 01:15 AM
I fixed it for all new replies, but the ones here are cast in stone pretty much.  Besides Russ likes words to be spelled all whacky, keeps the professionals away.  ;-)
Thanks for the fix!
equal mass measurement for L3
« Reply #124,  »Last edited
I bought 0.4mm2 speaker wire same quality as the 0.75mm2 I used for L1 and L2. 
L3 is going to build with 0.4mm2 to get more windings.

I want them to be equal mass, so I'll need more lenght of 0.4mm2.
I stripped 40cm of both wires, and weight the bare copper.

0.4mm2   40cm = 2.89 gram
0.75mm2 40cm = 4.86 gram

I used 10m for L2 so thats,  (4.86/40)*1000=121.5 gram copper
121.5/2.89=42,04... pieces of 40 cm for L3
42.04...*40=1681,66... cm =16.82 meter for L3

Big diameter old FNR speaker wire: 10cm=7.20gram
121.5/7.20=16,875 pieces of 10cm  is 1.69 meter wire... that short is that right?