new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha

evostars

new oscillator circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
«  »Last edited by Matt Watts
After communicating with Nelson Rocha, about the disruptive discharge capacitor, not being connected to ground, but to a floating ground he shared this circuit with me, It is his own design, and want his name connected to it, so please respect his wishes!
He will share this on my topic (bifilar coil resonance) at the over unity forum as well.

EDIT 9-9-2018  NELSON MADE A CORRECTION

" oscillator2 " is the new circuit, I will reference to this one from now on, so keeb in mind the labels might be slightly different.
He has labelled the floating ground "Ground" which in my opinion is very confusing, as it is no ground, only a reference point, it changes voltage. We had some email contact about it, I will post it under "new emails nelson rocha" in this topic


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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #1,  »Last edited
I labeled all the parts for analyses
see new labels of corrected circuit by nelson

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #2,  »
C1 is parallel over the circuit, looks like a pure DC, stabilizer being discahrged over the L2 coil by the pulsing mosfet.

L2 looks like an bifilar coil, with a center tap. C5 is parallel over 1 winding of the bifilar coil (could make it resonant?)

This produces negative inductive spikes on the high side (and middle tap) of L2.

The negative inductive spikes (back EMF) are charging the capacitors C3 and C4 (and c5?)

C3 is series connected with bifilar coil L1 and C1 The inductive spike will bring these series connected parts into resonance, producing an AC signal , So the Foating ground is fluctuating indeed. (this is connected to another not mentioned part of the circuit I suspect).

the pulse signal, is created by the oscilations .

It is not clear if L1 and L2 are coupled, I guess not.

D2 and D3 pass the negative cycle of the resonant L1 coil, to L2 Timing seems essential.

C1 and C2 pass AC block DC, so the mosfet sees DC with an AC signal on it (?)

So far, my first insights

 
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #3,  »
Nelson posted more on the overunity forum, referring to 2 of his latest video, with the bifilar coils and the oscillator.

Also stating that L3 was not drawn in the picture, but should be there, in the L1 L2 L3 stack, referring to the fifth video.
So the coils are coupled.

If we look at the video, we can see he uses a pulse transformer to switch the L2 coil on the high side, producing negative inductive spikes, charging c3 c4 and c5.

Nelson also uses a cap to create a disruptive discharge, by overcharging it with negative voltage.
I assume, its cr (or c4 or both, as c5 can discharge back into the L2.
If c3 or c4 discharge is the energy going into L1 or L2 or both?  I think L2 is blocked by the diodes. So L1 is disruptive discharged.

L1 is also series connected to C2, probably creating series resonance. c1 might be a smaller value than c3 that also is in series with the coil.
 The inductive spike charging c3 might also induce resonance in L1, but L1 will probably resonate more from L2 being pulsed.

So L1 is resonant from L2 and L1 is diruptive discahrged by c3.  this will most probably be on the negative maximum of the resonance of L1 (as seen in an older video).

the floating ground is a reference to the pulse transformer.

I have no clue why L2 is used with its center tap. but I think I have enough info now to start some experiments.

those c3 c4 c5 look like xicon greeny's (a cap type easily found).
They are 100V rated, so should overcharge easily from the inductive spikes.
they are polyester, and range from 0,001uF to 0,47uF (fast search here https://www.banzaimusic.com/Xicon-Greenies/

C1 and c2 could be part of the resonant series system, so should be more high rated in voltage, to be able to deal with the resonant voltages.

R1 is just part of the pulse transformer/gate probably 5 ohm.

Not sure about those diodes, and why he uses c3 and c4 and c5 with these 2 diodes. maybe to get more punch, if c3 discharges, it gets back uped by C4, and after the discharge, it will not be fully empty, and will be refilled partly by c4, as the diode prevents a shortcut over c4 by the discharging c3

Man Nelson sure knows his riddles.
But I love it. I have had many many thoughts about his project. but never did he make this big a release.
at least for me its a bit easier to understand his circuit. know more about it.
Also know I'm not the only one he shared his riddles with.
If you know more, please share!!!
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #4,  »
judging from the size of those greenies, I guess its a 0.22uF 100v
they are 9mm raster and W:13mm H:17mm and T: 7,5mm

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #5,  »
ordered the 0.1uF and the 0,22uF greenies
 :D

Matt Watts


evostars


Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #8,  »
Darn, I was hoping he had a couple more unlisted videos to share.

Not sure how close this circuit is to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmlpV1MWm40

But it may help to figure it out.

The principal needs to be understood, then the solutions can be scaled to whatever size desired.

evostars

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #9,  »
thats a very old circuit, look at the most recent 1 to 5 videos with the bifilar pancake coils, he linked to.

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #10,  »Last edited
Yeap.  Very old but I bet it still works; only Nelson knows what it is and how it works.

evostars

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #11,  »
additional information from Nelson per email last night, about the circuit :

  About the capacitors used  will depend of many variables like inductance and resistance of coils , but you should use minimal the capacitors with 400v range starting in 50nF tuning after the frequency of oscillator . About the gate no need use pulse transformer , just a square wave pulse capable to hard trigger the mosfet 

I'm guessing this is in response to the greenies for c3 c4 and c5.

so c1 and c2 are those 50nF 400V caps.

also, because he said no pulse transformer needed, the c4 cap and diode could be part of a bootstrap, to drive the mosfet gate, this also relates to the floating ground.

The resistor would prevent the impulse of the c3 discharge to reach the gate.

Still just guessing here, trying to follow the logic.

Man I feel a BUZZ :excited:
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #12,  »
blew up my first capacitor, better wear glasses next time
Went much to high in voltage.

first tried a 0.33uF 65V Wima cap, that didn't even get hot when charged to - 500V
So, sorry Wima, your to good. :P

I then tried a Panasonic stacked 18nF pretty small, so I guess a low voltage rating. probably 100 or 65 V.

went way over the edge, and it popped with a bang. hehe

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #13,  »
got a new hobby, blowing up capacitor s.


this is a very cheap 65V 0.1uF

took a while to destroy this one.
hold - 700V dc till it started to smoke and spill it guts out. no discharge
 :(

greenies are in the post

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #14,  »
As expected, the inductive spike is half the voltage at the center tap of the bifilar coil

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #15,  »Last edited
Quote from evostars on September 7th, 01:18 AM
About the gate no need use pulse transformer , just a square wave pulse capable to hard trigger the mosfet.
A gate driver chip like this should be able to drive the hell out of pretty much any MOSFET.  You'll get the fastest rise/fall time possible.
Quote from evostars on September 7th, 01:18 AM
also, because he said no pulse transformer needed, the c4 cap and diode could be part of a bootstrap, to drive the mosfet gate, this also relates to the floating ground.
You don't need any bootstrap.  His circuit allows for a direct connect.  That "floating ground" is merely a reference point and since it is tied directly to the Source pin of the MOSFET, you're good to go.

If it were me, I'd use a 3 watt, 15 volt isolated DC to DC converter to separate the oscillator and gate driver from the main power source.  You really can't go wrong with that setup.  Put a low ESR 50uF cap or so on the output of the DC to DC converter to make sure there is enough punch to really hard switch the MOSFET.
Quote from evostars on September 7th, 01:18 AM
The resistor would prevent the impulse of the c3 discharge to reach the gate.
The gate resistor is simply a current limit to prevent blowing up the gate driver.  It's easy to calculate the value.  If you have a 30 amp gate driver and you are operating the gate driver at 15 volts, then a 0.5 ohm resistor is about right.  Myself, I'd go up to 1 ohm just to be safe.  The larger this gate resistor, the slower the slew rate.

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #16,  »Last edited
Quote from evostars on September 7th, 01:18 AM
Man I feel a BUZZ :excited:
If you get something figured out, component types and values, do post your results.  I'd be happy to make some circuit boards and share them so we are all working on the same page.

Lynx

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #17,  »
I like where this is going :thumbsup:

Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #18,  »
Having this circuit from Nelson resolves the countless hours evostars and I spent trying to construct it from verbiage.  And the last I checked neither one of us was anywhere close.  So if this is the real deal, we should be able to get it functional and then expand on it to whatever power level needed.   What's a little disconcerting is that some of the capacitors in this circuit work as both capacitors and spark gaps.  We need to figure out a way to make this a little more reliable and long lasting.
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #19,  »Last edited
Kind of think C3, C4, C5 & D2, D3 form a unidirectional transmission line that creates a time delay between L1 & L2.  If I had to guess, this is what you tune for with the pulse generator.  You probably want just the right frequency and possibly duty cycle so that you get a particular phase delay between L1 & L2, turning one of these two inductors into a negative inductor (a battery of sorts).  So in the end, L3 (not shown) is driven and L1/L2 cancel themselves out.  That's free power if you ask me.

If I'm anywhere in the ballpark with my understanding, Nelson's circuit seems absolutely genius to me.  I'd also bet you can add capacitor/diode pairs out as far as you would like to create even longer delays which would be quite helpful to fully understand how this system works and how to tune it.

evostars

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #20,  »
Some quotes from Nelsons emails, to keep things together:

My question:
Quote
"I want to ground on the positive voltage supply, since we are using negative voltage, or is it better if I use earth ground?
I wonder, if it is best the put the charging (and disruptive discharging) series connected capacitor,
between the second (parallel series resonant) coil and ground,
or between the diode (passing inductive negative spike)  and the coil. (coil straight to ground)? "
Nelsons answer:
Quote
"The ground should be a fluctuate ground not the positive even become negative at part of cycle when coil collapse .
The cap should be in serie with one terminal of second coil and the float ground , the other second coil terminal connected in cathode of recover diode . In that way the coil will have disruptive discharging"
Strange, I cant recognise the recover diode part in his circuit he posted. But I refered to another circuit (mine) with a diode to capture the bacnk emf in to a cap and keep it there.

Me:
Quote
"I guess this floating ground is part if the barbosa leal electron trap part if the circuit? pumping the energy around, by the discharge of the cap somehow?"
Nelson:
Quote
The float point is relative to negative of input . I will share the basic diagram to you see how my simple oscillator work .
 I just wanted you to mention when you refer about it, that the circuit I'm playing is my own only that .  Dont forget about that please.
Is more easy in this way to explain to you after you have a a general view of basic oscillator circuit. After that you could test it more easily
(shared his circuit, and also posted it on the forum)

I posted on the overuntiy forum, abou the greenie caps 0.1uF or 0.22uF 100V for c3 c4 c5
afterwards he emailed:
Quote
"About the capacitors used  will depend of many variables like inductance and resistance of coils , but you should use minimal the capacitors with 400v range starting in 50nF tuning after the frequency of oscillator . About the gate no need use pulse transformer , just a square wave pulse capable to hard trigger the mosfet."
He agrees with you Matt, no pulse transformer needed. But since the source gate voltage rises, when the mosfet conducts, into to coil, the floating ground, is what is important, thats why I referred to the bootstrap.



Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #21,  »
Quote from Matt Watts on September 8th, 12:35 AM
Kind of think C3, C4, C5 & D2, D3 form a unidirectional transmission line that creates a time delay between L1 & L2.
A delay, interesting,
How does this work?
 
Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #22,  »
Thanks postman! :)
lets see how these greenies hold up under high voltage...

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Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #23,  »
Hmm, did a test. I am starting to believe, Nelson doesnt over charge a cap at all to get a disruptive discharge. Look at the data below.
It seems L2 is producing the disruptive discharge. That is also what Nelson stated:
" In that way the coil will have disruptive discharging "

newfile1003:
BLUE is the resonant L3 outside is grounded (all coils are outside grounded). Notice, the discharge is on the maximum negative voltage. If it is tuned to this point, the resonant voltage jumps up to a higher, more negative voltage, just like with the series parallel resonance.
RED is the L2 coil, it doesnt have series resonance at all, but shows a disruptive discharge. but it is not where I would expect it ( when the inductive spike hits. its just before the start of the 50% duty pulse of L1. (I checked if it was right, will check again, have my doubts here)

newfile1004
show a zoom of the spike in L2. less than 1uS  I guess around 760nS not bad.

newfile1005
here you see that the discharge is before the pulse is turned on, not at the turn off. I suspect a mistake on my reading will check again.
If it is correct, WHY does this happen here???  Nelson (and others) have mentioned that a coil can act as a diode, but this is when its having a magnetic field. There is none at that point in time... really need to understand this process.

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Matt Watts

Re: new oscillaror circuit shared By Nelson Rocha
« Reply #24,  »Last edited by evostars
Quote from matt watts on September 8th, 03:05 AM
Quote from evostars on September 8th, 04:46 AM
Hmm, did a test. I am starting to believe, Nelson doesnt over charge a cap at all to get a disruptive discharge.
I truly hope you are right about this, because finding capacitors that behave exactly right would be very difficult.
Seems Nelson confirmed I'm right (see email below).

The question is what influences the duration of the discharge? Is it pure resistance, or does the impedance of the caps play a part...

huh... why is this posted as if matt posted it? a glitch in the matrix? ( this is evostars post)
OOPS! I see what I did there... I'm moderated and changed Matts post.... SORRY!