Gaslighting

onepower

Gaslighting
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We see gaslighting quite often in forums and I thought the FE community should be made aware of it. We often see gaslighting as the blatant repetition of erroneous or misleading information as well as intimidation, use of logical fallacies and name calling.
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Gaslighting is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting
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People who gaslight typically use the following techniques: 

1. They tell blatant lies.

You know it's an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie with a straight face. Why are they so blatant? Because they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true. Keeping you unsteady and off-kilter is the goal.

2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.

You know they said they would do something; you know you heard it. But they out and out deny it. It makes you start questioning your reality—maybe they never said that thing. And the more they do this, the more you question your reality and start accepting theirs.

3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.

They know how important your kids are to you, and they know how important your identity is to you. So those may be one of the first things they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that you should not have had those children. They will tell you'd be a worthy person if only you didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack the foundation of your being.

4. They wear you down over time.

This is one of the insidious things about gaslighting—it is done gradually, over time. A lie here, a lie there, a snide comment every so often...and then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self-aware people can be sucked into gaslighting—it is that effective. It's the "frog in the frying pan" analogy: The heat is turned up slowly, so the frog never realizes what's happening to it.

5. Their actions do not match their words.

When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying. What they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling you that you don't have value, is now praising you for something you did. This adds an additional sense of uneasiness. You think, "Well maybe they aren't so bad." Yes, they are. This is a calculated attempt to keep you off-kilter—and again, to question your reality. Also look at what you were praised for; it is probably something that served the gaslighter.

7. They know confusion weakens people.

Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything. And humans' natural tendency is to look to the person or entity that will help you feel more stable—and that happens to be the gaslighter. 

8. They project.

They are a drug user or a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior.

9. They try to align people against you.

Gaslighters are masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will stand by them no matter what—and they use these people against you. They will make comments such as, "This person knows that you're not right," or "This person knows you're useless too." Keep in mind it does not mean that these people actually said these things. A gaslighter is a constant liar. When the gaslighter uses this tactic it makes you feel like you don't know who to trust or turn to—and that leads you right back to the gaslighter. And that's exactly what they want: Isolation gives them more control. 

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

This is one of the most effective tools of the gaslighter, because it's dismissive. The gaslighter knows if they question your sanity, people will not believe you when you tell them the gaslighter is abusive or out-of-control. It's a master technique. 

11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.

By telling you that everyone else (your family, the media) is a liar, it again makes you question your reality. You've never known someone with the audacity to do this, so they must be telling the truth, right? No. It's a manipulation technique. It makes people turn to the gaslighter for the "correct" information—which isn't correct information at all.

The more you are aware of these techniques, the quicker you can identify them and avoid falling into the gaslighter's trap.
https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/


Apoc4lypse

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #1,  »
I know whats wrong with this planet!

People. :blank:

Matt Watts

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #2,  »
And just when you defined 11 things to watch out for, tomorrow there will be a dozen more.

The velvet glove is coming off the iron fist.  Be ready.

firepinto

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #3,  »
I am personally happy to see this topic in discussion.  I have been studying on this subject since a 2 year ordeal with a tricky one of these types of people recently ended.  What is being described here is just one technique that a certain type of personality uses to feed his or her illness.  That is the Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  There is a lot of material to read online about Narcissists, but most of it is about relationships between couples.  That would be a horrible situation, luckily my situation was just neighbors that claimed to be a friends.  The truth is they worked on manipulating me to become their personal servant.  I come out of this with one big piece of advice to share.  Never EVER accept a gift or the slightest insignificant amount of help from a Narcissist.  You will owe them for eternity for "what they have done for you".  I still get the one time that the Narc "helped" me by holding a flashlight while I worked on my car, rubbed in my face over a year later.  The flashlight I had propped up shining directly where I needed it was doing more than he was.  This is his typical style of help.  In return I had to rebuild his washing machines, fix engines, let them borrow stuff and break it or never return it .... etc etc bla blah.  The point is they will exercise great amounts of control on an unsuspecting honest person before they ever realize it.  When  you call them out on their actions, you are accused of as being crazy.  Every thing I have read, the only way to fix the problem is to cut them out of your life completely.  They can not be reasoned with, they can not be fixed by a psychiatrist.  They will win.  But I for one am not moving.  There is one weakness to a Narcissist.  They need to have their Narcissistic Supply.  Supply is what feeds their false image of their self created identity.  It is important to research the consequences of removing supply.  Inside their real identity is a weak and shameful person.  They have absolutely no empathy.  When their true self becomes apparent to others, it is their worst nightmare.  Narcissists are experts at not letting that happen. 

Their Kryptonite is honesty.  They will manipulate honest persons to follow their own "truths". 

STAND for what you BELIEVE to be TRUE, and WORK to make those truths APPARENT and UNDENIABLE!

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #4,  »Last edited
firepinto
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Every thing I have read, the only way to fix the problem is to cut them out of your life completely.  They can not be reasoned with, they can not be fixed by a psychiatrist.
I would agree and my post was to highlight that gaslighting is a mental illness or personality disorder which as you suggested has no apparent cure. I had a similar experience relating to business and made the mistake of thinking logic and reason would prevail... I was mistaken. There is no logic or reason in it and there sole intent is to manipulate the situation as a means of control.
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They have absolutely no empathy.  When their true self becomes apparent to others, it is their worst nightmare.  Narcissists are experts at not letting that happen.
I would agree and while the narcissist may pretend to have empathy as a means of control all you have to do is push a few of their buttons to see the real person come out and as you say they are completely lacking in empathy.

Unfortunately narcissists seem to be growing in number and more brave following Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin's lead. They seem to think they can lie and manipulate anyone or anything without consequence... they are wrong. People are tolerant only to a point and when certain lines are crossed and they have been it will all come full circle.

I guess it depends at how we look at it and I learned from my bad experiences. I learned these people are fundamentally broken inside and there is no debating or fixing anything.  As such as you implied I give them no quarter and they will have no control over me. The best defence is simply to make our claim then walk away and let them play with themselves.

haxar

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #5,  »
Quote from firepinto on April 11th, 08:58 PM
I still get the one time that the Narc "helped" me by holding a flashlight while I worked on my car, rubbed in my face over a year later.  The flashlight I had propped up shining directly where I needed it was doing more than he was.  This is his typical style of help.  In return I had to rebuild his washing machines, fix engines, let them borrow stuff and break it or never return it .... etc etc bla blah.
Apparently, the favor was conditional. Did he tell you what he wanted in return?

If he were to set the terms on what he wanted from you up front first, and you agreed, it would be a valid exchange. In contract law.

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #6,  »Last edited
haxar
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Apparently, the favor was conditional. Did he tell you what he wanted in return?
If he were to set the terms on what he wanted from you up front first, and you agreed, it would be a valid exchange. In contract law.
I believe we were just talking about a lack of empathy... . I believe you missed the point and when a person "offers" help then attaches an endless series of non-consensual conditions to it that is not a contract. That is called manipulation and in legal terms... fraud.

Fraud: a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

Coincidentally they also have a tendency to victimize the real victim as a form of self-reinforcement which is classic narcissism.

haxar

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #7,  »
Yes, a fraudulent contract is not enforceable. You need agreement between the parties.

firepinto

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #8,  »
There was never any deals or bargains.  He would often insist that I borrow stuff from him that I did not need.  When I would turn down things like that, he would get very offended.  It was crazy how fast this problem ramped up over a couple years.  Towards the end, they were coming over to get me to work for them at least 4 days a week.  In the beginning I helped them as a friend, in the end, they stopped me from doing my own work to come work on their stuff.  This was no coincidence.  It was an exercise of control.  I now wish I would have documented every thing I did for them, because they did document everything they did for me.  It was a very short paragraph. :D  I could tell stories all day about the stupid things they tried to get away with.  I'm just glad I've cut ties.  They dropped me as a friend the second I confronted them.  There was no thought in their mind to apologize.  They got what they wanted, and will move on to the next target. 

I’m curious if most of the world considers Narcissistic Personalitys socially acceptable?  That would be an interesting poll. 
Call me unreasonable, but I think they should come with a label. :-P

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #9,  »Last edited
Firepinto
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I’m curious if most of the world considers Narcissistic Personalitys socially acceptable?  That would be an interesting poll.
I think so as the U.S. knowingly elected a person suffering from classic narcissistic mental problems as their president in Mr. Trump.
1. They tell blatant lies.
Yes he lies and manipulates everything on an almost daily basis.

2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.
Trump has repeatedly said he did not say things which were broadcast on national television... it takes a special kind of stupid to deny something everyone knows as a fact. It shows absolute contempt for the intelligence of other people which is narcissistic abuser 101.

3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.
Trump uses patriotism and nationalism to manipulate people and if they are not loyal and obedient to him personally then they are branded a traitor. In a word he wants a dictatorship which is the dream of every narcissistic abuser with mental problems because like any child they are intolerant of any criticism in any form.

4. They wear you down over time.
As we can see with Trump he just keeps repeating the same old lies over and over like a broken record. It's rotten Hillary, witch hunts and fake media all the way down.

5. Their actions do not match their words.
He claims to want to help the poor so he gives his billionaire friends a trillion dollar tax cut, as he said ... I just made all of you richer. He also said there should be no pardons and other presidents should be indicted or impeached... now he is claiming to be above all laws not unlike any other two bit dictator.

6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
He says he loves Americans as he screws them over with taxes and laws and judges any one who disagrees with him as anti-american and a traitor.

7. They know confusion weakens people.
Watch the news... total chaos in the white house and every day another lie or scandal surfaces on twitter. Twitter is for children who like to gossip not adults let alone men.

8. They project.
They are a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior... classic Trump. They are a liar, everyone is a liar including yourself except him... mental case.

9. They try to align people against you.
Classic divide and conquer, first he drew party lines, then racial lines, then religious lines and basically anyone who does not believe what he does is the enemy. What was formerly a simple disagreement in beliefs among people has now been turned into hatred and degradation which is a very dangerous scenario.   

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.
Again classic Trump and apparently everyone is crazy... except him. Warning bells should be going off because this is a clear sign of mental disorders. How can everyone be crazy or somehow inferior or stupid except him?.

11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.
Do the words witch hunt or fake media ring a bell?. Apparently everyone is a liar and corrupt... except him which is classic narcissistic abuser psychotic behavior. How can everyone be a liar except him?.

With Trump it's easy to check every box on the Narcissistic Abuser mental disorder checklist and apparently a majority in the U.S. think it is socially acceptable. Trump is a true Narcissistic Abuser and for them there is no backing down... they double down on their lies. Congratulations ...you elected a psychopath which is becoming more and more obvious every day.









Matt Watts

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #10,  »
Sounds to me like a sophisticated human behavior modification program designed to fully manipulate and control the masses.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwMVMbmQBug

So have you had enough yet?


onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #11,  »Last edited
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So have you had enough yet?
No I'm just getting started.

People may be mad as hell however they had every opportunity to learn multiple new skills, they had every opportunity to gain more knowledge and understanding and bring something of tangible value to the table. However they chose to do nothing or follow along and now their in big trouble. Everything is changing and if we will not or cannot change we will be left behind... it's that simple.

I know this because when I was younger I hit bottom and saw how bad it can get. I was working 14 to 16 hr days in the oil patch and lived in a tent and had nothing to my name. Thankfully I learned the hard lesson that I was stupid and people of real value have multiple skill sets and a vast amount of knowledge. I swore I would never be that person again and I would control my own future. Now every day my phone is ringing with people wanting me to do something or they want to hire me and I turn most of them down because I decide what I do not them.

We have two choices, we can sit on our ass and wait for an opportunity to come along or we can create our own opportunities as we see fit. It's the simplest thing in the world, do something different, learn something new or create something which has real value to others and your life will have more meaning and purpose.

Do you know why I'm here?, it's not because I expect any of you to teach me anything or give me anything. I'm here because most intelligent people understand quality is more important than quantity. It is the quality of the conversation, the creativity seldom found in any other place. If people want to be mad and hate then let them be mad... we move forward.

Cycle

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #12,  »Last edited by Cycle
Quote from onepower on June 6th, 11:47 PM
As we can see with Trump he just keeps repeating the same old lies over and over like a broken record. It's rotten Hillary
She's not?

Statistically impossible profits from cattle futures because her broker did a "saddle" ploy (giving losses to other investors and gains to Hillary), which she didn't report nor pay taxes on?

Whitewater?

Travelgate?

She and Bill didn't steal more than $190,000 worth of china, flatware, rugs and furniture (which they were later forced to return) when they vacated the White House?

Benghazi?

Emailgate and her destruction of more than 33,000 pieces of evidence?

Uranium One... and the collusion with Russia that Hillary and Obama committed (now confirmed by the FBI)?
http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/355749-fbi-uncovered-russian-bribery-plot-before-obama-administration

Her paying Fusion GPS for fake-news info on Trump (all of it made up by Christopher Steele, who was hired by Fusion GPS), then using that fake-news info to get a FISA warrant (without disclosing that it was paid opposition research with not a shred of truth to it) to spy on an American citizen (FISA... Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) as a means of influencing a presidential election?

Her rigging the Democrat primaries so she came out on top, rather than Sanders?

Her colluding with news agencies to get debate questions beforehand?

Her and Bill conspiring to take over Haiti by installing a former carnival singer as Haiti's president?

Her and Bill using Haitian earthquake relief funds to build the Caracol Industrial Complex (built on land stolen from peasant farmers, in an area unaffected by the 2010 earthquake, paying slave wages to Haitians to make products for Target, Walmart and The Gap... all of whom contributed heavily to the Clinton Foundation, 94% of said contributions disappearing straight into the Clinton's pockets? There's a reason Haitians hate the Clintons, you know.

Hillary installing her brothers Tony Rodham and Hugh Rodham (and his 'chauffer', Lt. Colonel Serge Toussaint... a major drug trafficker in Haiti) as administrators of the Morne Bossa gold mine in Haiti (where actual slaves were found)? They gave Tony Rodham the gold mining permit, and put Hugh Rodham on the mine's board of directors.

The long string of dead bodies under mysterious circumstances of those associated with the Clintons?
http://www.freewebs.com/jeffhead/liberty/liberty/bdycount.txt

You can also include Dr. Dean Lorich (who exposed Clinton corruption in Haiti) and Monica Petersen (Assistant Director at the Human Trafficking Center, investigating the Clinton's ties to child trafficking in Haiti) to that list now.
Quote from Monica Petersen
...the real significance of this scandal for me, I know you feel me [redacted], is the link to contemporary slavery and trafficking. I can’t say to what extent, but there is human trafficking happening through the Clinton’s Caracol Complex. And mining has always been historically linked to trafficking, slavery, and labor exploitation. I’d like to go see for myself who’s laboring at Morne Bossa, but I would hypothesize that the Dominicans are doing the contractual oversight of the mining, while marginalized Haitians are being exploited for low or no cost labor in dangerous mining conditions.  That’s two huge human trafficking scandals, an environmental degradation scandal, a social displacement scandal, a Presidential election scandal, a scandal with billions in unaccounted for earthquake aid… all leading directly back to the Clintons racist cronyism in Haiti.
https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/its-time-to-prosecute-the-clinton-political-crime-syndicate/
Quote from onepower on June 6th, 11:47 PM
witch hunts
Name one thing illegal that Mueller has found Trump has done. Just one.

I hear a lot of fake-news allegations, but not one bit of evidence has been found of Trump colluding with Russia (whereas the FBI found scads of evidence that Clinton and Obama did collude with Russia on at least two separate occasions... Uranium One and the Steele dossier).

The prosecutor is now trying to "Scooter Libby" everyone he can... remember Valerie Plame Wilson (the link is to the first CIA document in 2002 mentioning her in relation to Iraq... she wasn't a "spy" as she would later claim in attempting to extend her 15 minutes of fame, the report described her as "a CIA WMD managerial type")?

She was a CIA office worker in charge of the team monitoring Iraq's attempts to obtain nuclear weapons, and was accidentally outed by State Department official Richard Armitage in 2003 to journalist Robert Novak, who took her identity public. The special prosecutor couldn't bring charges against Armitage, so he went on a fishing expedition to take revenge against the Bush administration... and Scooter Libby (who wasn't even involved in the Plame Affair) just happened to mis-speak during testimony, and was charged with perjury and obstruction. He's since been presidentially pardoned.

Mueller is now doing the same thing against the Trump administration... he has no evidence of any wrong-doing by Trump, so he's trying to justify his existence by ensnaring anyone he can. He's ensnared 5 people thus far, none of the charges have anything to do with Trump. That's why there are now calls for Mueller to end his witch hunt.

The really funny thing? George Papadopolous was found to be a Clinton plant... and he'd been trying to get the Trump team to take meetings with Russian officials from practically the first day he joined the Trump team. It was found that Clinton intended to ensnare Trump in a Russian collusion allegation by planting Papadopolous and having her own inside man trigger the investigation by setting up the meetings. That's slimy. When the Trump campaign didn't bite, Papadopolous then set up a meeting with Alexander Downer as a cover, and Downer then went to the FBI with a story that the Trump campaign was actively seeking Russian contact. A wholly manufactured story, as it was Papadopolous doing all the 'seeking'.

What'd they get Papadopolous on? He spoke to a Russian college professor... and since college professors in Russia are government employees, the dimocrats conflated that to "speaking to a Russian government employee" then to "colluding with Russian government officials". Remember, Papadopolous did this on purpose as means of triggering a collusion investigation against the Trump administration... but he didn't want to go to jail for actually conspiring with Russian officials, so he chose a college professor. Since Clinton lost the election, the dimocrats had to go for every conviction they could, so they threw their own plant under the bus to increase the 'body count' of those convicted, to try to make Trump look worse.

It was also revealed that Clinton paid FBI informant (and former CIA asset) Stefan Halper $282,295.00 to spy on the Trump campaign. Halper had to submit Federal records showing who'd paid him... that's how Clinton's slimy tactics got outed for this one.
Quote from onepower on June 6th, 11:47 PM
and fake media all the way down.
You mean like when unemployment reached an 18 year low, jobless claims reached a low not seen since 1969, and black unemployment reached an all-time historic low and Trump's approval ratings amongst blacks doubled ( even Kanye West is red-pilled :) )... but the left-leaning fake-news media didn't cover it, choosing instead to continue covering a two-bit hooker Trump slept with years before he even ran for president?

CNN didn't claim earlier this year that there'd been 22 school shootings, when they were counting schools that were no longer schools (closed down), suicides, shootings that happened blocks away from schools, accidental discharges (by police officers!) that harmed no one, etc., etc., etc.?

CNN didn't attempt to inflate a fake-news story about the Philadelphia Eagles' visit to the White House?

NBC didn't put out a fake news story about H2B visas as means of smearing Trump?
Quote from https://www.mantecabulletin.com/opinion/letters/real-fake-news/
The “Fake News” media ignored the Inspector General report of abuses in the FBI/DOJ handling of the Clinton email investigation pointing to a cover up of crimes and preferential treatment to assure Hillary would not be charged for multiple felonies.

The “Fake News” media ignored the Inspector General report of abuses and misleading information that led to a FISA warrant to place a spy into the Trump campaign, which an article in the New York Times on May 7, 2018 confirmed.

The “Fake News” media claimed Trump was “baseless” in his reference that he was wiretapped.  Now, National Intelligence Director, James Clapper, has admitted Trump was spied on through an informant.

The “Fake News” media ran news story after news story of “Trump-Russian” collusion; but to this day, even Democrats have admitted they can find no collusion.

The “Fake News” media ignored real Russian collusion with the Clinton Foundation including millions given by the Russians as well as the sale of American Uranium ultimately sold to the Russians through a Canadian investor after approved by Clinton and Obama.

The “Fake News” media took Trump’s words out of context when he referred MS-13 gang members, who rape and murder, as “animals”.  Yet, the “Fake News’ media twisted his words to mean all immigrants.

The “Fake News” media used Nancy Pelosi’s words to call the tax cuts as “crumbs” although the majority of Americans would benefit of a tax cut.

The “Fake News” media ignored the reduction in unemployment to 3.9% and all time low unemployment for women, blacks, and Hispanic America.
Yup, fake news all the way down. :P
Quote from onepower on June 6th, 11:47 PM
He says he loves Americans as he screws them over with taxes
You mean the taxes he lowered, resulting in many companies flourishing so much they're giving their employees bonuses?

Even the uber-left-leaning New York Times is forced to admit times are good:
"We've run out of words to describe how good the jobs numbers are" - NYT, 01 Jun 2018


https://youtu.be/HUwtUPgaiEE
Quote from onepower on June 6th, 11:47 PM
and laws
You mean Trump's "one in, two out" rule, where two laws must be rescinded for every new law made? The deregulation that has unchained industry and created the lowest unemployment since the beginning of the century and increased take-home pay? What the dimocrats are now terming "Trump's war on labor"? :rofl:

I do believe you've let your flawed political ideology (and hence your lockstep hivemind inculcated hatred of Trump) color your perception of reality.

My suggestion: Pull your head out of liberalism's butt and take a look around at reality. Things have vastly improved over the no-growth teetering-on-the-edge-of-recession Obama administration.

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #13,  »
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/toxic-relationships/201806/how-handle-narcissistic-abuse
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The Motivation for Narcissistic Abuse
Remember that narcissistic personality disorder (link is external) (NPD) and abuse exist on a continuum, ranging from silence to violence. Rarely will a narcissist take responsibility for his or her behavior. Generally, they deny their actions, and augment the abuse by blaming the victim. Particularly, malignant narcissists aren’t bothered by guilt. They can be sadistic and take pleasure in inflicting pain. They can be so competitive and unprincipled that they engage in anti-social behavior.  Don’t confuse narcissism with anti-social personality disorder. (link is external)

The objective of narcissistic abuse (link is external) is power. They act with the intent to diminish or even hurt other people. The most important thing to remember about intentional abuse is that it’s designed to dominate you. Abusers’ goals are to increase their control and authority, while creating doubt, shame (link is external), and dependency in their victims. They want to feel superior to avoid hidden feelings of inferiority. Understanding this can empower you. Like all bullies, despite their defenses of rage, arrogance, and self-inflation, they suffer from shame.  Appearing weak and humiliated is their biggest fear. Knowing this, it’s essential not to take personally the words and actions of an abuser. This enables you to confront narcissistic abuse.

Mistakes in Dealing with Abuse
When you forget an abuser’s motives, you may naturally react in some of these ineffective ways:

Appeasement. If you placate to avoid conflict and anger, it empowers the abuser, who sees it as weakness and an opportunity to exert more control.
Pleading. This also shows weakness, which narcissists despise in themselves and others. They may react dismissively with contempt or disgust.
Withdrawal. This is a good temporary tactic to collect your thoughts and emotions, but is not an effective strategy to deal with abuse.
Arguing and Fighting. Arguing over the facts wastes your energy. Most abusers aren’t interested in the facts, but only in justifying their position and being right. Verbal arguments can quickly escalate to fights that drain and damage you. Nothing is gained. You lose and can end up feeling more victimized, hurt, and hopeless.
Explaining and Defending. Anything beyond a simple denial of a false accusation leaves you open to more abuse. When you address the content of what is being said and explain and defend your position, you endorse an abuser’s right to judge, approve, or abuse you. Your reaction sends this message: “You have power over my self-esteem. You have the right to approve or disapprove of me. You’re entitled to be my judge.”
Seeking Understanding. This can drive your behavior if you desperately want to be understood. It’s based on the false hope that a narcissist is interested in understanding you, while a narcissist is only interested in winning a conflict and having the superior position. Depending upon the degree of narcissism, sharing your feelings may also expose you to more hurt or manipulation. It’s better to share your feelings with someone safe who cares about them.
Criticizing and Complaining. Although they may act tough, because abusers are basically insecure, inside they’re fragile. They can dish it, but can’t take it. Complaining or criticizing an abuser can provoke rage and vindictiveness.
Threats. Making threats can lead to retaliation or backfire if you don’t carry them out. Never make a threat you’re not ready to enforce. Boundaries with direct consequences are more effective.
Denial. Don’t fall into the trap of denial (link is external) by excusing, minimizing, or rationalizing abuse. And don’t fantasize that it will go away or improve at some future time. The longer it goes on, the more it grows, and the weaker you can become.
Self-Blame. Don’t blame yourself for an abuser’s actions and try harder to be perfect. This is a delusion. You can’t cause anyone to abuse you. You’re only responsible for your own behavior. You will never be perfect enough for an abuser to stop their behavior, which stems from their insecurities not you.
I think we have all had bad experiences with people having mental disorders, more so narcissistic abusers which seem to be on the rise in society. It also has a large impact on the FE community and the quality of the conversations we have moving towards our goal. I believe understanding this problem and knowing how to react to it can lead to better and more meaningful debate on FE.

It is only when we cast off all the hate, the rhetoric and the false beliefs that we can truly move forward as people.

Take care


Matt Watts

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #14,  »
Quote from onepower on June 8th, 10:38 AM
I think we have all had bad experiences with people having mental disorders, more so narcissistic abusers which seem to be on the rise in society.
Unfortunately onepower, I suspect we are greatly outnumbered, all by design I might add.  The world controllers would be perfectly happy with everyone being mindless little droids.

    "And they'll get it.  They'll get it all someday, because they own this f'ing place."
                -- George Carlin

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #15,  »Last edited
Matt
Quote
"And they'll get it.  They'll get it all someday, because they own this f'ing place."-- George Carlin
I don't think George saw the irony in the big picture because for the true Narcissist enough is never enough. Even if they won the winners would start eating their own in spite of themselves because it's in their nature. Even if they won everything they would still whine it was too easy thus corrupt or a conspiracy and go on a witch hunt. It is not one group vs another, not one person or belief vs another... It is a form of mental illness.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder
Quote
The hallmarks of Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) are grandiosity, a lack of empathy for other people, and a need for admiration. People with this condition are frequently described as arrogant, self-centered, manipulative, and demanding. They may also concentrate on grandiose fantasies (e.g. their own success, beauty, brilliance) and may be convinced that they deserve special treatment. These characteristics typically begin in early adulthood and must be consistently evident in multiple contexts, such as at work and in relationships.

People with narcissistic personality disorder believe they are superior or special, and often try to associate with other people they believe are unique or gifted in some way. This association enhances their self-esteem, which is typically quite fragile underneath the surface. Individuals with NPD seek excessive admiration and attention in order to know that others think highly of them. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder have difficulty tolerating criticism or defeat, and may be left feeling humiliated or empty when they experience an "injury" in the form of criticism or rejection.
In my opinion they have psychological issues because they were taught or led to believe they must always compete with everyone else and everything on every level. It is no wonder they have regressive feelings of inferiority or inadequacy because they were told to become god like but they will always be a person. You see it is a paradox and cannot be won in any sense of the word hence the reason why this is considered a mental illness.

So what is the cure?... there is none to my knowledge. Personally I always strive to do better, to be a better person however I have opted out of the insanity and decided I like being an individual. I choose not to compete with other people I compete with myself and try to be a better person tomorrow than I was today... little steps. It just seems petty to limit myself to the beliefs of other people when there is an infinite universe of untold mysteries one step beyond the atmosphere of this little blue planet.

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #16,  »Last edited
Things are getting weird out there.
The Narcissistic abuser and chief Trump has decided to start a global trade war.

Sure there are always trade imbalances however it is generally understood by most that there are gradual corrections to the give and take of trade over time. What is unacceptable is false claims with no tangible proof or records to validate the claim. Threats and demands that others must comply despite a lack of proof. Action against others under a false narrative and most vile of all... blaming the victims of the actions for defending themselves.

In my opinion it is classic Narcissistic Abuse and I have dealt with these kinds of people before. The lies, the constant repetition, victimizing and blame for not complying and finally threats and intimidation. Worst in my opinion is the often childish behavior all can see while demanding respect. Are they stupid?, do they honestly think they are fooling anyone and that others will just believe or comply?. We are entitled to our own beliefs but not our own alternative facts.

There is a universal law which transcends geographic boundaries.... real friends don't screw over there friends. If you do, if you have so little respect and empathy for others then you have crossed that line and all bets are off. On a brighter note I think most intelligent people can see past the smoke and mirrors... the rest I'm not so sure about.

haxar

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #17,  »
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 10:55 AM
Things are getting weird out there.
The Narcissistic abuser and chief Trump has decided to start a global trade war.

[...]

On a brighter note I think most intelligent people can see past the smoke and mirrors... the rest I'm not so sure about.
The rest is about negotiation and making a good deal.

25 years of lies with no good deals.

Cycle

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #18,  »Last edited by Cycle
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 10:55 AM
Things are getting weird out there.
You might want to be more careful with your verbiage... it's painting you as a narcissistic abusive ideologue. You're becoming that which you purport to rail against.

"Weird" in this context, I'm assuming, means to you "not the same 'lose and lie about it' as past presidents have embraced".
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 10:55 AM
The Narcissistic abuser and chief Trump
You mean the guy who hasn't a racist bone in his body, who pays his female employees exactly the same as his male employees, who takes the risk of hiring and training people others would turn their noses up at?

Say... did Hillary pay her female employees the same as her male employees? No?
How about Bernie Sanders? No?!
 :rofl:
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 10:55 AM
has decided to start a global trade war.
You mean his putting tariffs and restrictions on those products to match the tariffs and restrictions the other countries had already put on those products, as  means of 'leveling the playing field' to balance the trade between us and those countries?

South Korea agreed to reduce longstanding nontariff trade barriers ‎that have reduced US exports there.

China capitulated in response to Trump’s announcement of a record $50 billion of tariffs on Chinese products. Premier Li Keqiang pledged to improve access to Chinese markets for American businesses, and said “China will treat foreign and domestic firms equally.” Beijing has also promised to stop forcing foreign firms to transfer technology to China, and to strengthen intellectual-property rights enforcement..

Trump is also renegotiating NAFTA, forcing Mexico and Canada to respect American intellectual-property rights and to stop imposing price controls on our drugs and vaccines.

European nations also impose price controls on our pharmaceutical and technology products. Trump will end that.

The Council of Economic Advisers reports that most nations impose de facto tariffs on our goods and services. How is that free trade? You want free trade? That's exactly what you're getting. Your failed political ideology prevents you from acknowledging the improvement in the fairness of trade between nations, but that's a reflection on you, not on the process of leveling the playing field which Trump has undertaken.

There already was a trade war, and the US was losing it... badly. Trump is attempting to fix that. Why do you think so many businesses are moving back to the US? That's a Big Win for US workers.

I do believe you've let your flawed political ideology (and hence your lockstep hivemind inculcated hatred of Trump) color your perception of reality.

My suggestion: Pull your head out of liberalism's butt and take a look around at reality. Things have vastly improved over the no-growth teetering-on-the-edge-of-recession Obama administration.
Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #19,  »Last edited by Cycle
In short, you're swimming in red pills, and desperately trying not to get wet. How's that working for ya?




















onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #20,  »Last edited
Your off topic,.
I was talking about Narcissistic abuse using Trump as an example of how the Narcissist manipulates any given situation. It's not about politics but the person and how they manipulate and project.


People who gaslight typically use the following techniques: 

1. They tell blatant lies.

You know it's an outright lie. Yet they are telling you this lie with a straight face. Why are they so blatant? Because they're setting up a precedent. Once they tell you a huge lie, you're not sure if anything they say is true. Keeping you unsteady and off-kilter is the goal.

2. They deny they ever said something, even though you have proof.

You know they said they would do something; you know you heard it. But they out and out deny it. It makes you start questioning your reality—maybe they never said that thing. And the more they do this, the more you question your reality and start accepting theirs.

3. They use what is near and dear to you as ammunition.

They know how important your kids are to you, and they know how important your identity is to you. So those may be one of the first things they attack. If you have kids, they tell you that you should not have had those children. They will tell you'd be a worthy person if only you didn't have a long list of negative traits. They attack the foundation of your being.

4. They wear you down over time.

This is one of the insidious things about gaslighting—it is done gradually, over time. A lie here, a lie there, a snide comment every so often...and then it starts ramping up. Even the brightest, most self-aware people can be sucked into gaslighting—it is that effective. It's the "frog in the frying pan" analogy: The heat is turned up slowly, so the frog never realizes what's happening to it.

5. Their actions do not match their words.

When dealing with a person or entity that gaslights, look at what they are doing rather than what they are saying. What they are saying means nothing; it is just talk. What they are doing is the issue.

6. They throw in positive reinforcement to confuse you.
This person or entity that is cutting you down, telling you that you don't have value, is now praising you for something you did. This adds an additional sense of uneasiness. You think, "Well maybe they aren't so bad." Yes, they are. This is a calculated attempt to keep you off-kilter—and again, to question your reality. Also look at what you were praised for; it is probably something that served the gaslighter.

7. They know confusion weakens people.

Gaslighters know that people like having a sense of stability and normalcy. Their goal is to uproot this and make you constantly question everything. And humans' natural tendency is to look to the person or entity that will help you feel more stable—and that happens to be the gaslighter. 

8. They project.

They are a drug user or a cheater, yet they are constantly accusing you of that. This is done so often that you start trying to defend yourself, and are distracted from the gaslighter's own behavior.

9. They try to align people against you.

Gaslighters are masters at manipulating and finding the people they know will stand by them no matter what—and they use these people against you. They will make comments such as, "This person knows that you're not right," or "This person knows you're useless too." Keep in mind it does not mean that these people actually said these things. A gaslighter is a constant liar. When the gaslighter uses this tactic it makes you feel like you don't know who to trust or turn to—and that leads you right back to the gaslighter. And that's exactly what they want: Isolation gives them more control. 

10. They tell you or others that you are crazy.

This is one of the most effective tools of the gaslighter, because it's dismissive. The gaslighter knows if they question your sanity, people will not believe you when you tell them the gaslighter is abusive or out-of-control. It's a master technique. 

11. They tell you everyone else is a liar.

By telling you that everyone else (your family, the media) is a liar, it again makes you question your reality. You've never known someone with the audacity to do this, so they must be telling the truth, right? No. It's a manipulation technique. It makes people turn to the gaslighter for the "correct" information—which isn't correct information at all.

The more you are aware of these techniques, the quicker you can identify them and avoid falling into the gaslighter's trap.
https://thoughtcatalog.co…m/shahida-arabi/2017/11/

Cycle

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #21,  »Last edited by Cycle
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 02:28 PM
Your off topic,.
Am I, though? I directly addressed your claim that Trump started a "global trade war", when he was in actuality addressing and correcting an already-existing trade war (which the US had been losing for decades), all the while chalking up several Big Wins for the US.

You keep claiming (without proof) that Trump is a liar, a narcissist abuser, that he's bad for America... yet reality does (and will continue to) prove you wrong. I've presented several proofs which prove you wrong. The first post you completely ignored, the second post you tried to claim I was "off topic".

You're operating from a false premise and using fallacious logic in an attempt at smearing a person, then attempting to tell everyone who presents proof that you're wrong that they're "off topic". That's abusive.

You can't have it both ways. You either present proof of your assertions (which you've thus far not done), or you accept the reality that conditions in the US have vastly improved.

I'm betting you'll try to chalk it up to previous presidents... that's what I see happening on other forums, too.

What is it about liberals that makes them so averse to acknowledging reality?

onepower

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #22,  »Last edited
Were are all in big trouble Cycle and it isn't about politics, beliefs or borders... it is that we seem to have lost our humanity. We have lost hope in a better future, we have stopped having conversations like real people about common problems. In my opinion when the respectful conversation ends that is the beginning of the end.

Myself I have spent decades working towards the goal of FE for all and it is my intent to give it away to everyone with no strings attached including yourself. I mean I do not even know you and you seem to hate me and everything I stand for but I would give FE to you and everyone else none the less. Why?, because I can and to prove to myself I have compassion for others. If we have no compassion or empathy towards others plight then what are we cycle... what are we?. I would submit we are monsters, animals by any other name despite what we may claim.

That is not weakness my friend that is true strength and doing the right thing was never meant to be easy. So I will not call you names, I will not try to belittle you or gain the upper hand to inflate my own ego... we were supposed to be better than that and I hope we are. Our children and future generations are depending on us to do the right thing and god knows it is not going to be easy in any sense of the word.

Matt Watts

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #23,  »Last edited
Quote from Cycle on June 10th, 03:19 PM
... or you accept the reality that conditions in the US have vastly improved.
I suppose you have the economic charts for all 300 million Americans and can prove beyond a doubt all of those charts have vastly trended upward?

I can say unequivocally my chart isn't trending upwards and I do work for a "Fortune 500 company".  My peers and I watch daily as foreign H1-B visa holders pour into this company, untrained, unskilled and way overpaid.  Meanwhile the educated and experienced workers get pushed to the curb working insane hours (with no overtime) cleaning up the mess "our foreign friends" make.  Literally a mess too when the Orkin team has to come in and do extensive pest control remediation.  Vacation that we actually earn is taken away from us, all our internal systems are in shambles.  The management chain and executives are completely mum.  To them everything is running smooth, better than ever.  We have severity level 2 & 3 outages now weekly, which are used by management as leverage to take away our bonuses--bonuses which in the past amounted to nice chunks of change.  We're told, "do more with less."  Fat chance Bubba.  Not going to happen.

Same sort of stuff happening at my Brother's company.  From my perspective, everyone I talk to has similar gripes.  Yes, the playing field is being levelled alright, right into the ground.  Forget about ever retiring, the trend is to work (for peanuts) until you die.


And you want to know the part about this that really shines a light on things?   It doesn't matter who the POTUS is, the same trend continues to happen, year after year, decade after decade.  It's an agenda my friend.  An agenda owned, controlled and managed by the very people Onepower started this topic about.  The cream doesn't rise to the top, the scum does.  If anyone out there cannot see this, first you need to either pull your head out of the sand or push the rock off of you you've crawled under.  It's as plain as the nose on your face.  The Narcissistic entities in this world own the game Jack.  They are the reason we are all circling the drain.  They breed like rabbits, convert others to be like them and inject their behavior into every facet of life.  You cannot avoid them.  They have the numbers now and if unchecked will take us all down.

As tough as this is to say and admit to, I hold myself and others like me accountable for letting things go this far.  I'm sure most would prefer to just mind our own business and live our lives in peace, but it's not going to happen.  The enemy has breached the gates.  Only the ones that recognize and can put their energy towards stopping this monster can save us now--almost a futile task when looked at objectively.  We need a powerful tool.  We need knowledge and we need it soon.

Cycle

Re: Gaslighting
« Reply #24,  »
Quote from onepower on June 10th, 04:50 PM
So I will not call you names, I will not try to belittle you or gain the upper hand to inflate my own ego... we were supposed to be better than that and I hope we are.
He says, as he belittles the president in a desperate and futile attempt at helping his failed political ideology gain an upper hand.

If you'd said what you said about any member of this forum, you'd have been banned. You were abusive. More than that, you were wrong, as I proved.

Deal with it.